Not the greatest personal memory...
First of all, the real purpose of the Ministerial Conference was for Headquarters and the Administrations, be it the Armstrongs or the Tkaches was to keep a grip on the connection between themselves and all the local ministry and congregations. It is difficult to do when, in fact, a local church and pastor generally could get along just fine without them. That fact took years to dawn on most but the sense of it was always there running silently in the background especially when yearly scandals and drama flowed freely into the mailboxes and lives of minister and member.
"To be Played in All the Churches" taped sermons served the same function. I personally got used to listening them while preparing a sermon on Fridays and more often than not, not bothering as they were nothing special, save for keeping the local/headquarters connection alive. In my in at the time I felt I had more to say to a congregation I actually knew and they had no clue about.
I'll try to be brief. No, I will be.
Ministerial Conferences were hardly conferences. We conferred about nothing I recall. We listened to what we were told on all topics. Some conferences were more tension filled than others. The food was good. There was the occasional entertainment. Once we all got blood tests minor physicals. HWA said "you ministers" a few times.
The only hopeful and positive one I recall was the one where the Systematic Theology Project (STP) was presented. It was very good. Topics such as Healing, Divorce and Remarriage and Tithing were all address in a very real and practical way. Loved it and felt the church was finally growing up. Then I got home, HWA demanded all copies be returned and the Dark Ages returned. It was basically all down hill from there.
I sat through some pretty heated arguments during the receivership crisis of '79 while my 29 year old Presbyterian mind spun wondering how could a church be put into receivership? What did that mean? I almost didn't go but another minister said "C'mon, it will be interesting", so I went. It was not interesting. It fueled my doubts about this kind of church compared to my upbringing.
There was a lot of talk about demons and resisting the State as where Satan was currently working. All bullshit. HWA got caught and questioned about money and a host of other things and it got out of hand real quick. Ultimately the Gates of Hell did not prevail against the one true church making room for even more chaos, rumors, scandal and my personal "what the hell have I gotten into and what do I do, I thought I was called into a legitimate ministry..." mode.
In one session of one Refresher we were "taught" how to use 3x5 cards and a card file for sermon ideas. I left. In another, an Evangelist who obviously got stuck having to present something and did no preparation went through all the Naves Topical scripture on marriage from Genesis to Revelation. Or so they said, I left.
Then there was the visit to a session by HWA himself. Applause when he came in and "there were two trees..." I couldn't leave but I went brain dead. Applause when he left with the entourage but not for the content of his talk.
I've referred in the past to the session "Should members engage in oral sex" so I spare us. I'll just say some found it distasteful and others hilarious. It lasted about 15 minutes and we all left getting the message across to the presenter to mind their own business. Local ministers 1. Headquarters 0
I don't recall anything meaningful. Nothing on real theological questions or difficulties. HQ and HWA knew all the answers. There were really no questions, only doubts and fears to be minimized and faith to be shored up at the conference. No science. No discussions on real history or the findings of the topics I find myself having written about in the past as a reflection of past "What about this...?" that would never be addressed.
I found myself over time dropping topics from my own sermons such as tithing and healing as presented in the traditional WCG way and never a sermon on places of safety or British Israelism. I never cared personally about those topics as it seemed the NT didn't care about them either and they were riddled with danger and racism based on bad information and speculation.
Lots to muse about but to the point. Gerald Weston badly wants the conference mostly because of the connection it maintains between Charlotte and all the churches which is paramount. They don't wish it to dawn on anyone that the kind of HQ control in thoughts, words, beliefs and deeds is archaic, knowledge restrictive and a threat to the concept of "send it in." It's a pulse taking exercise of the local minister. It's also a make work situation for many at any HQ. Lots of HQ minister types at least have little to actually do or accomplish so they make work to look forward to. Some field ministers would have had little to do , like a Dave Pack, if they weren't so busy minding everyone's business and stirring up problems they then went out to "solve".
They can say the reason for a Ministerial Conference is to ensure...
1 Corinthians 1:10 10I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our LORD Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
... all they want, but it is a control mechanism and an impediment to speaking the same right things. The above mentioned scripture is also an impossibility where two or three are gathered together in anyone's name.
But mostly it keeps "Send it in" in one's mind.
PS I predict Gerald will cancel out of necessity if he has already not done so.
PPS Gary I know you are laughing at me for obvious reasons... :)
PPPS And too...I am in quarantine with my sweetie who just returned quickly from Europe two weeks early the day before all hell broke loose there and here after the Moron's Address to the Nation, so I have too much time on my hands.
PPPS And too...I am in quarantine with my sweetie who just returned quickly from Europe two weeks early the day before all hell broke loose there and here after the Moron's Address to the Nation, so I have too much time on my hands.
48 comments:
that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
If you had friends at HQ, I'm sure you knew that there were as many factions and divisions of opinion at HQ as there were in the field, maybe more. The conferences proclaimed whatever was the official "party line" at the time, but this was as much to keep the dissident HQ ministry in line as to teach anything to the field ministry.
One big plus of being a new minister in an area:
Reading the detailed, salacious Armstrong cult Members' Files.
Better still:
Minister's wives perusing files; fuel for gossip with deacons' wives over coffee!
Dennis:
You stated: "It is difficult to do when, in fact, a local church and pastor generally could get along just fine without them."
Once in a while I wonder what Armtrongism actually is and how it got that way. Since my view was from the "belly of the whale" as a lay member, I always assumed rigorous connections between HQ and the local ministry. The kind of independence you suggest above never occurred to me. This statement indicates that what Armstrongism was in any local area was the version that the local ministry decided to implement.
I visited the Wichita Kansas WCG congregation some years back and heard the minister make the august pronouncement that "Introverts will not receive salvation." (Because God needs a personality to work with and introverts have no personality.) It was a dumfounding declaration and nobody in the congregation batted an eye. I debated whether this was a statement of dogma from Pasadena or whether the minister was opining. It was never clear. Your statement about local ministerial independence makes me think that this was a local viewpoint on introverts. (And another leading minister I questioned about this knew nothing about such a viewpoint and was appalled.)
So Armstrongism may be many things - including what the local ministry may want it to be.
737 noted: "One big plus of being a new minister in an area:
Reading the detailed, salacious Armstrong cult Members' Files.
Better still:
Minister's wives perusing files; fuel for gossip with deacons' wives over coffee!"
I am sure this was true of some in ministry. I am sure HQ had files on ministers too. I myself never kept such a thing or would want to. When I replaced Gerald Weston here in SC, we went to lunch in transition and he wanted to tell me all about each member. That was not only weird to me but repulsive and I stopped him. I told him I wanted to be able to say in my first sermon that "I know you think I know all about each of you...(blah blah) but I know nothing of you or you of me actually. Let's all start over if need be and get acquinted."
My wake up in this area was in Kentucky when a woman approached me my first Sabbath to introduce herself and she felt compelled to tell me, as I am sure she was made to feel by the former minister, "Hi I"m the one who committed adultery." Uh! I said follow me and we went in a side room where I asked her what her name was and that I never wanted to hear her label herself or identify herself like that again. She teared up, hugged me and said "thank you."
NEO
I am sure the connections were rigorous as you said. Or at least it was always played out that way. But I found it depended actually on a man's personality. That was not always a two two way street based on that. It wasn't with me. I did not grow up in the WCG mode of thinking, prying or being. I came from a family of kindness, compassion and common sense and that wasn't going to change. I did learn "Ask and you shall not have. Do not ask and all things are possible."
For example, in Kentucky , we had a wonderful Prom for all the teens that was attended far and wide. It was awesome. Somewhere someone at another prom, fornicated, lol. It happens not just at proms. Anyway, HQ said no more Proms. I said, hell no, and simply ignored that and went on with our very successful and fun times. Nothing came of the disobedience.
Many many things, now that I can see it, that a minister said about whatever was tied to that personality. I went to school with great kids who turned into asshole ministers and I'd have never guessed.
Again by example, I had an assistant who announced in a sermonette that he'd either visit you in the hospital or anoint you. But not both. I had him get up the next week and retract that idiocy. He also went around me when I told a member not to shutter his grocery store for Unleavened Bread. The lesson was for in the home and merely a symbol and not meant to bankrupt. He went around me to Joe Tkach Sr who said "Close it!" I also ignored that and told the member not to worry about it which they did not after that. That assistant is a minister in a splinter to this day.
PS NEO It WAS a local comment on Introverts. Just like the minister here in SC who chided me at a ball game for wearing sunglasses as they blocked the light in the eye which is the lamp to the body Matthew 6:12. That was his stupid view and he too is still a minister in his own splinter.
"If you had friends at HQ, I'm sure you knew that there were as many factions and divisions of opinion at HQ as there were in the field, maybe more. The conferences proclaimed whatever was the official "party line" at the time, but this was as much to keep the dissident HQ ministry in line as to teach anything to the field ministry."
Correct.
Your story reminds me of a conversation I had with a man I did business with a number of years ago. He said to me one day, "Chuck" you are the perfect person I would to invite to our church revival that is going to take place all this week. I paused for a second and answered him and said: "if your church needs a whole week of revival, I think that would be the place I don't want to be".
Dave Pack said that his Greatest Story Never Told was the result of questions that he always harbored and questions his phone buddy could never answer.
Dave Pack now sits quarantined behind a gate rejected by the greater Wadsworth community and the vast splinter empire with his only hardship being that the world still doesn't know "who I am".
With age comes experience, and with experience comes knowledge. So self quarantined is a likely result for us all who would rather not be exposed to that which will bring no positive outcome to our lives.
The tricky part is when all things return to "normal", are any of us completely normal anymore? The power to walk away sometimes leads many to run away. In the end, we quarantined ourselves against a label or labels, but we ourselves became a label as well.
The funeral eulogy or time of remembrance speaks volumes to the individuality of us humans. Speaking the "same thing" in a most practical sense is what most all do. Acting in a multitude of varied ways is inherent and the result of many factors.
The danger comes from men who believe and teach that everyone has to have THEIR mind. That is why there are refresher courses, constant email reminders, 25 minute daily Feast announcements, letters, sermons and in person interactions all to get a person pliable and orientated and channeled unto the mind of a human or entity or both.
A walk into the COGs could be labeled seeking your own boredom at your own peril. Mr. Diehl, being locked up with your "sweetie" doesn't sound too boring at all, unless you both don't speak the same things.
and too...miraculously, EVERY couple who came into the church I pastored at the time, previously married and subject to the churches inquiry about being bound or unbound to previous marriages turned out not to be bound to their past marriages. It was a miracle! :)
I had read Guy Duty's "Divorce and Remarriage" before going to the conference and that pretty much won out over how WCG handled it. I was not about to EVER tell a presently married couple to separate. Ever! Guy's book nailed it and it never was an issue again for me as a pastor in WCG no matter what they taught.
https://www.amazon.com/Divorce-Remarriage-Guy-Duty/dp/0871230976
If a minister asked too many questions He'd soon have a new job where the main question He'd asked would be "Would you like some fries with that'
the Ocelot said...
If a minister asked too many questions He'd soon have a new job where the main question He'd asked would be "Would you like some fries with that'
Ministerial rumor and folklore said that Joe Jr once told a pal minister who was going to quit not to because he'd just end up being a Walmart Greeter.
I assume this was a major motivation for Joe not to give up being in charge until he had secured the proper finances for his more than successful retirement. A successful retirement was not something passed on to the ministry by either the Armstrongs or Tkaches. But the church leadership got a lot of mileage out of Ron Kelly's "Don't worry, we'll take care of you" before Ron had to start saying "We can't offer you guys retirement. Jesus worked a great miracle in the church and we have no money." And you never asked "How much did you guys make selling the Pasadena property?" That was none of your business
In all those years, in all those Ministerial Conferences and Refresher programs there was never any sessions on retirement, personality disorders to be aware of, crisis counseling or warnings not to be a son of a bitch type minister or we'll fire your ass. Because of this, the pool of leaders for the splits, splinters and slivers was full of men who needed to have been removed from ministry long ago but now were aplenty to go on and create their own theological dystopia The problem was in part that the removers themselves needed removing, or at least an upgrade in their education with minimal passing grades required to go on.
There was also NEVER a session on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBpaUICxEhk
The message of the Church to the ministry to pass on to the members was that real life was in the future, just around the corner and "it won't be long now." Meanwhile our actual lives frittered away along with our youth, talents and interests outside of church, church, church.
Our lives only were relevant within the context of HWA's longevity or trusting that Really Waste Your Time Waterhouse was right. A session on how to admit and apologize when one was mistaken, wrong or badly off base also was not given either. You had have that down pat by nature or would easily and eventually qualify as a splinter leader.
And now I will try to be done. lol.
"Try? No Try. Do! No try!"
Yoda
Jim-A said
Dennis pretty well nailed it on ministerial conferences. In my early years I was naive about them. I looked forward to going to the conference because I wanted to get together with former classmates. I basically swallowed the Armstrong diet hook line and sinker. Unlike Dennis I didn’t question anything headquarters said. They were the generals and lieutenants of God’s army. I didn’t read John Robinson’s book. I didn’t read the Ambassador Report. Rumors about GTA were dismissed as lies generated by Satan. In 1979 the receivership was viewed as an attack by Satan. I don’t think Dennis would have liked me. I was too gung-ho for him.
Overall I was a rebel, I rode motorcycles, I belonged to a trap and skeet club. I shot pistols at the gun range, I reloaded my own ammo. But when it came to the church I didn’t question anything. If it came from God’s apostle it was as if God said it.
I look back now and can’t believe how naive I was. It makes me angry when I realize I was never trained in counseling. I was never trained in theology. I appreciate the compassion Dennis had for the members where he pastored. One thing I look back on is that I tried to help the members I was responsible for. I worked on widow’s cars. I replaced a clutch in a widows car. I cut and stacked wood for people. I painted a home for an elderly lady. Did that make me a great person. No it was something I wanted to do. I have become too garrulous.
Dennis thanks for bringing back memories of those stupid conferences.
Jim-AZ
Jesus worked a great miracle in the church and we have no money
Dennis, I have loads of respect for you, and great empathy for your journey. You've been an example for us here (mostly a good example, but even watching your struggles has been a help at times). You usually know the right thing to say, and you know what's good and right even when you aren't all the way there yet in your own life.
So, I hope you won't take offense at the following comment. You quoted Ron Kelly:
We can't offer you guys retirement. Jesus worked a great miracle in the church and we have no money.
I've read you, on this board, urging people to know the difference between their selves and their stories. I've watched you encourage emotionally blocked posters to rise above, get over, work through, or leave behind their obsessions.
Well, Dennis, it seems obvious to me that despite all your growth and healing, you still have a lot of unresolved emotion caught up in those words you heard from Kelly. You would/will be a lot happier if you can let go of the hurt Kelly did to you with those words (and with his general attitude). You'll never change Kelly, so your only practical option is to be the bigger man and let him go. Irony of ironies, his approach forced you to do a lot of the growth that has made you the man you are today. The day you can genuinely thank Kelly for his smug, supercilious, a$$hole approach (which wasn't even entirely true as there was decent money for him, and VERY decent money for Joe Jr.), you'll feel a huge weight lifted off of you.
Live your life now. Not in the past where things might have been different if you had stayed longer on the WCG payroll, or if you had laid low in retirement if you got a nice enough pension. Not in some mythical future in which Joe Jr. and Ron Kelly make amends for their selfish awareness that WCG was a shady business to which they held the purse-strings. Find within yourself whatever it takes to thank Kelly, instead of stewing in repressed anger over how he treated you and so many of your peers. Easier said than done, of course, but you've done harder.
Jim-AZ
Dennis your wound up this morning. Good on you. Damn you bring back memories. No one is supposed to ask what happened to the money from the sale of all that WCG had. The gold and silver HWA had. Sale oh the G-III, sale of Big Sandy, sale of the homes on Orange Grove and Waverly. And of course Pasadena campus. And who know what else. Ministers were not supposed to retire. We were supposed to work till we dropped dead. I will never forget the day I walked into Tkach’s office and handed him my letter of resignation. He said to me, you can’t resign. I said oh yes I can. It wasn’t two minutes till Joe jr was in his office smiling wishing me well. He was delighted I was leaving. I didn’t join any splinter group. I just walked away. I had practically nothing. No home, no furniture, no job. But I felt free.
Jim-AZ
Jim and Dennis: When the ministerial conferences happened, it meant that my parents were coming to town. This was inconvenient in the years after 1975, because as noted frequently here and other places, that's when I had left. Obviously the conference was the main attraction, so we knew that there would be snippets of visit time, but it was incumbent upon us to accommodate them. One year, they came to town, we ended up selling tickets we'd had for months for the Rolling Stones' concert because the day of the concert was to be a day on which we could visit. Unfortunately, one of my brothers co-opted their time that entire day. Oh well. When they finally did visit, I showed them that I could blow matches out with the speakers I had built for my stereo playing Aerosmith's "Milk Cow Blues".
During another conference, I actually took each of my parents for a ride on my motorcycle. By that time in the '80s, some of the ministers owned and rode motorcycles, so bikes didn't carry the stigma that the church had assigned to them in the '60s and '70s. Of course I'm sure most ministers did not build motorcycles in their living rooms. During one parental visit, I had a freshly sand-blasted and painted Triumph Trident frame in back of the couch. My mom just shook her head when she saw it and said "Poor Cathy!" (my significant other at the time).
BB
It was sad, but also pathetic, to see a couple of WCG layoffs attending with Rod Meredith's GCG for a while, each believing that Rod would soon hire them. They held on for a few months, but once they saw they wouldn't get a paycheck they stopped attending. Like so many, they were there for the paycheck.
Members and ministers had very different relationships with the church. Members knew that they had to pay. Ministers expected to be paid. In particular it was the unpaid local church elders who saw this and became the most disgusted by the cash-seeking behavior of the formerly paid ministry.
Jim-AZ said
Anon 11:28
I know Dennis will respond to you but allow me to comment. First of all you gave Dennis good advice. I know you meant well. I am in similar circumstances as Dennis having been in ministry for 25 plus years before walking away in 95. I consider myself successful. I retired in 2016. I paid cash for a new home, paid cash for a new home. I have retirement funds in two brokerage firms. I think Dennis is doing well in his profession. He is doing something he enjoys. I think Dennis will say the same thing I am going to say. I can’t let it go. I married in the church, we had our child in the church. We raised her in the church. We influenced her in who she married. Our grandchildren were influenced by the church. The better part of my life was influenced by the church. I drug my family from one church area to another. My daughter was never able to have friends, no roots. My wife and I never had any close friends. You can’t have clove friends when your a minister. Your supposed to treat everyone the same. And as Dennis has said, you have to wear a mask. As every church member knows, no minister would ever have an argument with his spouse. All ministers kids are perfect. A minister would never use a curse word if he smashed his finger with a hammer.
I have many good memories about the church. I would welcome many of the church families into my home today. Most of the church families were honest hard working people. They did the best they could do. I take issue with the system, the lies, the oppression of those who thought they spoke for god.
My wife asks me all the time why I read this blog. I read it because of people like Dennis. I support Dennis. I hope the best for him. I was glad Dennis got to have heartfelt talk with his ex before she died.
I support the work Gary is doing keeping this blog going. It takes a lot of his time.
I support Byker Bob. He came to AC, not really conforming to the AC mold. BUT he has gone on be successful.
Will the hurt ever go away. No. But it does not define me. I can only hope that those in any church will use their brain to think. We will never all reach the same conclusions. But at least be free to think for yourself. Don’t let someone like Gerald Weston tell you how to think. I can’t think of anything more boring than listening to him pontificate.
Jim-AC
My message to 11:28 would be that it is very difficult to forgive when the bad or unethical acts of others are still having a daily impact on your life every day. Ron Kelly may have only been a messenger, or he could have been the author of that decision. However, the decision makers should have factored into the equation the policy the church had had regarding being part of the Social Security system. The new, improved WCG repudiated and repented of the Armstrong heresies, and mitigated many points of damage. The new theology was supposedly more friendly to the outside world because they took on a new attitude to evangelism, and the urgency of getting out the saving message now, as opposed to believing that people would receive their chance later in the second rez. Supposedly, they were dedicated to making right so many of the wrongs that had been perpetrated by the Armstrong-led WCG. Why would they leave for dead the people who had been kept out of the Social Security system, and who were also taught not to lay aside savings, or make investments, or plan for retirement, because the end would come first?
GCI would be much ahead in their mission and growth curve had they not contaminated the new theology (new to them at least) with the old management style. And by the way, does anyone out there actually have any good or nice stories to share about Ron Kelly? Just sayin'
BB
Dennis:
I seem to recall that ministers were given some kind of sabbatical every seven years, where they got a year off or something to that effect. It was renamed Refresher Program later on I believe.
Did you ever have a sabbatical or refresher stint during your years as a minister in the WCG?
Jim-AZ, I can't help wondering whether you've joined Dennis in becoming an atheist?
Jim said it best. "It doesn't define me". This is my state of mind. If I speak of Ron Kelly's blowoff etc, it is only because it seemed at the time and more so now to simply be another lie and the "Jesus worked a great miracle and we have no money" seemed disingenuous. It also is the source of my previous postings on Jesus as Trickster. Going all those years believing any Jesus was really there and this was his work as "Christ", which has a more authoritative sound than the name "Jesus". Let's face it, Rod coined the "Namby Pamby Jesus" concept and we got stuck with KAA---RIST! lol.
Concerning retirement in a practical sense as to how it turned out. It turned out ok. I was able to receive the larger amount between myself in my last 20 years of massage which was not great and my ex wife's SS which was greater as she worked for a large company before her death. If married more than ten years and do not remarry, one can receive that benefit. On top of that there was a large, in my world, cash payment that was in my savings account one week after my appointment and sign up with SS. My first nice, to me, check came the next month. I still work and have a good practice even so soon now after having left a fabulous practice on the Willamette in Portland for here. I do nice work. Have a nice rep and most know I don't put up with any massage bullshit and woo woo. If someone can't pay, so what, let me help you with that headache. It works out nicely.
I have been reunited with Angie after ten years. We had been together ten years previously , and yes, I originally her pastor, but the anxiety and depression I had and poor choices seperated us for that time. Quote of the year. "You're in Oregon? Oregon? Really? Oregon? I couldn't even get you to leave the apartment!" lol. She had remarried in the interim and got back in touch just to share that etc when he died. Longer story, but it worked out and neither she nor I are the same people we were back in rather dicey and difficult transitions.
I share too much... But it's part of not wearing the masks that I have come to hate and don't serve me n any positive way.
Any way, I still am not my story and it does not define me. Thanks Jim and 1128
I do feel for some of my former friends and colleagues in ministry who choose to jump to yet one splinter or another and often now being stuck at this age where maybe their hearts no longer reside. They can't get out. Simple survival has become an issue and church income paramount. It's the price one pays for believing the lie of soon, shortly and 3-5 ten times, even sincerely so.
BB wrote: "Ron Kelly may have only been a messenger, or he could have been the author of that decision. However, the decision-makers should have factored into the equation the policy the church had had regarding being part of the Social Security system. The new, improved WCG repudiated and repented of the Armstrong heresies, and mitigated many points of damage. "
WCG may have "repented" publicly from preaching bullshit, but they never changed the despicable way they treated employees and members. Kelly, Tkach and all the top guys in WCG/GCI are living lives of financial security with well-funded retirements that allow them to travel all over the world - where many boast about the travels on Facebook and elsewhere.
The church administration never had any ethical or moral responsibility for anyone but themselves. Bernie Schippert told one woman when the first round of lay-off's started, that the church owed her nothing, all while seated at his mahogany desk with his Rolex on his arm after the church paid for him to go to law school and other schooling. Schippert even stood in front of the employees in the Student Center one day and said that those who stuck by them till they sold the property would get double severance. It never happened. The church lied to its employees for decades.
pardon my "and another thing" approach here on this posting but one thought leads to another after the last one lol
I come from a Eastman Kodak family. My dad worked for Kodak for 45 years, retired at 62 because his three carpool friends who all talked about retirement died before they did. Dad alone survived. Dad started with Kodak at 17 and saw it through it's rise and fall. Even after it went mostly bust, they took care of my parents nicely as they promised for the next 35 years until their passing at just under 100. Kodak also paid every penny of my brother's care the first 18 years of his life and the State of New York took over to this day still.
I thought a church would at least be as responsible to those who put the food in their mouths and them on the media to weave their tales. The Kodak and Dad template was affixed in my mind when they had me an all ministers sign off on SS in leu of their empty promises. Of course, in hindsight, I am sure no one who insisted on that felt they'd ever really have to pay up because of , well you know....3-5, 10 at the outside, 20 max... Kinda like Dave Pack who wants members to take out loans because "We flee and never have to payback the loans." Would someone tell his bank?
It's hard not to compare what a responsible company does because it said it would and of course, legally had to to a Church and leadership that runs the ship onto the rocks with their own foolish beliefs, reckless change, blaming fake Satan, thanking trickster Jesus and screwing everyone in the process body, mind and spirit.
The idea of Joe Tkach and others in his cadre living the life under the guise of Jesus performed a miracle gets to me as well at times. To me, Joe, who made light of it all with "Honey I shrunk the Church" reinvented the wheel of mainstream religion as if it was some new thing. I wasn't going around that circle again personally and so glad I did not believe I had to waste more time in some crackpot splinter before waking up even later than I did.
Gotta feed the fish, the birds and night creatures now. I have turned into my Grandfather!
The church lied to its employees for decades.
The church lied to its members for decades. Most of those who lied to its members were its employees.
Karma.
2:43 "The church lied to its members for decades. Most of those who lied to its members were its employees."
That statement is made in pure ignorance. Pasadena had over 1,200 people employed for the church, college and foundation. We were the second-largest employer after IBM and before JPL. These people were NOT the ministers and the upper echelon elite who now live lives of privilege. These employees were hard-working people who thought they were working for a good cause and sacrificed much by working there considering how the church mistreated them. They are the gardeners, the custodians, the secretaries, the print shop people, the maintenance guys, the carpenters, and many others who build the church up to the glory days it reveled in for so many years. They were the first to suffer and still suffer as those on the top got their full severance, retirement packages, their homes paid for, their cars and much more.
Jim-AZ said
Anon 11.32
Have I become an atheist like Dennis? No I don’t consider myself an atheist. However I don’t believe the Bible is the inspired word of God either. Dennis has read and studied more about paleontology than I have. I have read with interest what Dennis has written on this blog. I look at the sky, the stars, I look at a new born baby, a hummingbird and all the different facets of creation and I don’t believe it just evolved from nothing. However I don’t believe a god created life 6000 years ago. There is evidence of humans living thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Dennis has some good specimens. I don’t believe there was a universal flood. I don’t believe in the Exodus. I don’t believe over a million men, women, and children left Egypt and walked to the Red Sea. How long would it take to get the message out to a million people. How long to get elderly people, how long to carry infants, how to drive cattle, sheep and goats? How to find bathroom places. It would have taken weeks to move that many people.
There is so much I don’t know. One thing I do know is none of the churches, COG or others know didly about prophecy. “ behold I come quickly “ never happened.
So am I in agreement with Dennis on everything he writes? No but I don’t discard what he writes either. Somethings I may never know.
Jim-AZ
So am I in agreement with Dennis on everything he writes? No but I don’t discard what he writes either. Somethings I may never know.
Jim-AZ
Nor is it part of any "agenda" on my part as some insecurely insist upon as my motives. I am a curious person. I am curious about what I don't know or weren't taught or haven't yet heard of be it theology and what I see as problems that I was assured growing up were not in the Bible but were and are, or the history of the Universe. The real history not soaking in myth and Bronze Age ignorance.
That said, over the past few weeks I have taken a Banned break and thought through what I can be helpful in and what, perhaps, is not for this site to share. I will endeavor to stick to topics that totally have to do with my experience or perspectives on the WCG experience and outcomes and leave out that which has helped me answer my own questions and interests outside of the Biblical narrative. I was mistaken for the most part thinking that my interests and questions about the Bible and "never before understood, but did you ever think about it this way..." postings would interests most others as they do myself. Wrong obviously! lol. So adjustments in content will be made.
I do wish you/us all a safe and healthy whatever the hell is going on and for however long. I'm sure there will be lots to share here in the next few weeks. Tomorrow , Monday, should prove to be yet another difficult day I suspect as the damage to the economy and fear continues to accumulate.
Jesus was returning to Wadsworth, because "Wow, you can sure tell it's almost time", to spend time with Dave but got diverted to Detroit where last seen standing in line to be tested. It is suspected Passover, NTBMO and UB also will be held in one's home this year.
Jim-AZ
Dennis please don’t stop posting your findings on all these topics. I think there are many on here who like and need to be challenged to think. What really angered me is for me to realize that while in WCG I was taught as were you that anything contrary to what HWA taught was disagreeing with God. I allowed myself to be put in a narrow shallow box. For over 25 years, possibly my most productive years, I never thought outside that box. So I really do want use what brain I have left to educate myself. Dennis your posts make me think. Thank you
We have prejudices we don’t often even know we have about things. An example, many years ago, I was hired to be on staff for the group Metallica. I had never listened to their music. I figured they were satanic! What could I possibly expect? Here is what I learned. I still don’t like their kind of music. But they were normal decent people in real life. Lars was a neat guy to talk to. He asked me to go jet skiing with him. Jason and James were usually quiet and didn’t say much. Kirk was a little weird but I got along with him. Unless you knew who they were and that they were a heavy metal band you would not think they were any different from the average person.
I have over the past few years started listening to the lyrics of the rock bands that I hated back in the day. It is eye opening to realize how tuned in they were to the problems of society. Listen to “Smilingly Faces” by Undisputed Truth. Reminds me of WCG
Jim-AZ
Jim-AZ
Dennis please don’t stop posting your findings on all these topics. I think there are many on here who like and need to be challenged to think. What really angered me is for me to realize that while in WCG I was taught as were you that anything contrary to what HWA taught was disagreeing with God. I allowed myself to be put in a narrow shallow box. For over 25 years, possibly my most productive years, I never thought outside that box. So I really do want use what brain I have left to educate myself. Dennis your posts make me think. Thank you
We have prejudices we don’t often even know we have about things. An example, many years ago, I was hired to be on staff for the group Metallica. I had never listened to their music. I figured they were satanic! What could I possibly expect? Here is what I learned. I still don’t like their kind of music. But they were normal decent people in real life. Lars was a neat guy to talk to. He asked me to go jet skiing with him. Jason and James were usually quiet and didn’t say much. Kirk was a little weird but I got along with him. Unless you knew who they were and that they were a heavy metal band you would not think they were any different from the average person.
I have over the past few years started listening to the lyrics of the rock bands that I hated back in the day. It is eye opening to realize how tuned in they were to the problems of society. Listen to “Smilingly Faces” by Undisputed Truth. Reminds me of WCG
Jim-AZ
Dennis - I think the problem is not the lack of interest, but the violent attacks from a few hotheads.
I understand it getting to you, but please keep posting the interesting items for the rest of us.
Or give us another site that is non COG if that is your preference.
BB asks "And by the way, does anyone out there actually have any good or nice stories to share about Ron Kelly?"
I know a woman who attended Ambassador/Big Sandy who said Ron Kelly was one of her favorite teachers. I don't recall any specifics, but she gave the impression they had a joshing relationship based on a similar sense of humor.
But it seems he did not have the background to teach at least one of his classes. A group of us were conversing once about timber, and she mentioned a "lo-bolly pine." Everybody turned to her with startled expressions. Somebody said, "E---, the word is lob-lolly."
The woman said, "Well, Mr. Kelly said 'lobolly.'"
"The church lied to its members for decades. Most of those who lied to its members were its employees."
I was one of those employees. I answered letters, and in my own defense, I can state that I did not deliberately lie to anyone. I believed in that bullshit. Yeah, I was dumb. It's appalling to me now how dumb I was. I still don't know everything, but I've come over the decades to know a lot more than I did back then, but it's too late to call back many of those letters that bore my signature and which were totally bullshit. I can only hope that any damage I inadvertently did got corrected down the road.
Dennis, you don't need to hold back on anything. Not everybody that frequents this blog is a dyed in the wool religionist and fanatic Bible believer. I certainly am not. Many others aren't either. You know me well since we're Facebook friends, and I appreciate anything you publish anywhere.
Smiling Faces! Amazing, Jim, because as a rebel type, I did keep up on all of the rock n roll back in the day, and especially the line from that song "beware of the handshake that hides the snake" leapt out and struck me as being aptly descriptive of the WCG. I think the song was originally intended in a civil rights or race relationship connotation, kind of like some of Sly Stone's songs. But it had broader application as well.
From a spiritual perspective, the Who had much to share. Who could help but apply "Won't Get Fooled Again!" to the WCG?
I don't like Metallica's music, either, although they did collaborate with Lou Reed late in his life. Lou was one of my favorites, but not for his debauched lifestyle at certain points. Lou was heavy metal back in the early seventies when he switched from the mostly accoustic instrumentation of the Velvet Underground days to the then heavy metal of Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner, the guitarists who rearranged his songs and accompanied him on the Rock n Roll Animal live album. Got to see his show from that tour at the Santa Monica Civic sometime in the seventies. It was pretty awesome!
As per Dennis's comments on whatever is going on, today did seem to be more stable. Progress is being made in synthesizing a vaccine, and the supermarket shelves had been restocked to a degree I had not imagined possible. There are some new regs limiting the number of certain commodities per person. I am hoping that the California call for people 65 and older to self-quarantine is not instituted in my state, but perhaps if it is, my ULC ministerial credential will gain me exemption. Obviously if I had the virus or thought I'd been exposed, I would do the right thing and sequester.
Will make a decision this coming week as to whether to purchase a new propane grill for possible cooking emergencies, and a generator for in case there are interruptions in electrical service. Hope everyone is taking proper precautions for themselves and their family, especially all of our ACOG friends who may be being forbidden to do so by their leaders!
BB
Very true Anon 2:43
It still is going on and on to this day. If not more so because of the internet.
And it is still the vast majority of "employees" lying to their members.
Many posters are misrepresenting the complaints that have been made against Dennis. Satan in the garden of Eden challenged Adam and Eves beliefs about Gods character and trustworthiness. That was a microcosm of the real world where every belief and right is eventually challenged. So if Dennis or anyone else posts a comment that is contrary to others beliefs in a civil manner, that's fine PROVIDED they don't cheat. Posters can cheat by using the abusive cult ploys mastered by the ACOGs and cults world wide. One such technique is using unrelenting repetition to brainwash their targets. This is immoral since everyone has the right to be the steward of their own mind and life.
So it's the matter of playing by the rules rather than the views expressed as such.
BB said: "Smiling Faces! Amazing, Jim, because as a rebel type, I did keep up on all of the rock n roll back in the day,'
If it helps BB, I came to love Freddy Mercury and Queen as a result of sitting in a Ministerial Conference meeting on the "Evils of Rock and Roll" that Joe Tkach SR lead if you can believe. They showed clips from MTV at the time of all the bad boys. Dee Snyder comes to mind along, of course, with KISS. I had never associated "We will rock you" and "We are the Champions" with Freddy or Queen. Queen, in my ignorance, was just another way of saying "Queer". At any rate, Freddy was unique and had it all in voice and style. He also sang from his heart. Queen, because of that Ministerial seminar became my Go-To group. It gave new meaning to singing we will rock you at hockey games!
...and now I can't get Bohemian Rhapsody out of my head!
Thanks for your comments and encouragement Jim.
The Bible always got my interest growing up obviously. It fascinates me now of the grip it has on people and the various ways it does so. I am very interested in where it really comes from and who really wrote or didn't write it when, where and why. Once I tuned into the NT really being all about Paul and precious little about those characters in the Gospels who seem to have come and gone for the most part into the mists of history, if they are history, questions arouse I never thought to ask myself on what I was doing as a minister.
Literal vs mythical, fact vs fictional, it all caught my attention. Having dealt with several thousand folk under my ministerial care, so to speak, I didn't see that people changed very much, behaved much differently than others or had any less problems and if they did handled them nobly and in great faith. Some tried and did of course but people were always just people. When they screwed up as a church member, suddenly they knew all the scriptures on being kind to others and forgiving. I did not find that to be the case when I screwed up along the way! lol. The minister is supposed to not dawdle in the merely human too category it seemed and the bogus idea that his family had to be this or that way no matter what others were was and is stupid. Being a pastor made my kids try really hard not to be too good or in some circumstances, not good at all to counterbalance the labels.
My oldest son , when in first or second grade told everyone on "What does your Daddy do" day that I was the commander of a Navy submarine which is why I could not come to "What Does Your Daddy Do" day! lol. I only heard about this later when the teacher mentioned that amazing thing he said I did to my wife.
The world is full of amazing people who spend lifetimes doing their homework on wonderful topics. Church of God ministers tend to sit home in their easy chair, read only what supports their preconceived ideas that are dictated by their faith restrictions and then tell everyone why they are right and those doing the hard work of exploration aren't. That doesn't work well for me and shouldn't for anyone.
Men like Bob Thiel read their Bibles like they would a newspaper. They have their prophetic template in their head based on cobbling scripture together for their end times views and then search out articles and happenings that fit the template. It's all make believe. Men like Dave Pack motivate with bombastic foolishness hoping one never checks back on all the times, running at right at 100% of the time, they were dead wrong and badly mistaken.
Heh, BB, I met Lou Reed quite by accident once on a job (he used the exit of a venue next to one we were working on a shoot). He was a cranky individual, but he seemed to appreciate that I didnt bug him for an autograph or something else and sat with me for a while.
Yes, RSK, according to reports, Lou had a many faceted personality, and he showed different people different facets at different times. I think he had a penchant for deliberately portraying himself as a mystery, much as did Bob Dylan at various times in his life. We tend to like, understand and relate to people who display outgoing, altruistic personalities. It's funny, but even with my favorite artists, I tend to like single digit percentages of their total body of work, however, that small percentage I am passionate about, and keep returning to periodically.
I too have been around celebrities during certain parts of my life, and I always tried to treat them respectfully of their privacy, didn't hound them for autographs, or gush over them. They appreciated that.
BB
Dennis, I liked certain Queen songs, but the ones I enjoyed mostly were not the most celebrated ones. As an example, my fave was "Tie Your Mother Down". Next was "Fat Bottom Girls". And, then there was the lone song that Freddy didn't sing: "I'm in Love with my Car", written and sung by Roger Taylor, the drummer.
In terms of minds, you might have been on the wavelength of Queen because Brian May, guitarist, is also an astrophysicist. Another interesting fact, the guitar he played throughout his career was one that he and his father designed and built. That is part of the magic of Queen, as the guitar sounds are totally unique.
BB
Oh, another thing, Dennis. I also came to my first knowledge of some of the rock songs through sermons and sermonettes. As an example, I first learned of the Dovells' song "The Bristol Stomp" in an Allen Dexter sermonette. The Dovells were huge during the New York doo-wop era, a time when school kids were asking "Hey, did you like Dion better before or after he split with the Belmonts?"
BB
Well, IIRC, his vehicle wasnt loaded yet and I was guarding shoot gear during a crew break, so we were both sitting out on the gear cases waiting. One person off the street recognized him and asked for him to sign their arm or something so they could have it inked in. He grumbled "No. I dont sign people."
He might have been displaying some common sense there, RSK. If I write on the back of my wrist with ballpoint pen, within a couple hours, little pus bubbles will rise up. As I understand it, this is not uncommon, and it can actually go into blood poisoning if left alone. When I worked at the Academy Awards years ago, they impressed us each year to be very careful with how we handled the general public, because there were those who were looking for an opportunity to sue the deep pockets of the Academy or the celebrities whom we were often protecting. They took the lawsuit thing really seriously. I had to walk the area for which I was responsible with the insurance loss prevention manager, and make corrections before the night of the show. The year John Hinckley Jr. shot President Reagan, we had to do a bomb sweep of the auditorium each day. The awards were postponed by one day, in respect for the president, which was fortunate, because the director's script with all the times for the acts, sequences, and numbers had gone missing, and the extra day of rehearsal gave them the opportunity to redo about three days of the man's work.
BB
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