In the Churches of God, Passover has always been a time of inward introspection and self-examination as to why people do the silly things they do even though they know it is wrong. It is the most sacred observance in the COG calendar. It is that one night out of the year that members look forward to having their slates wiped clean and can start anew into a more perfect walk.
That rarely lasts longer than the drive home when they start complaining that they had to wash the feet of a person they did not like, or that the person had nasty toe jam. The clean washed slate quickly erodes even more as a driver cuts them off on the freeway and they swear (under their breath, of course) at them.
The next day they hurridly scurry around the house searching for any last morsels of leaven. Toasters are used for one last time and dumped. Suit pockets are checked. Cars vacuumed. Children's toy boxes scrubbed clean. It's exhausting! All the time this is happening they are trying to cook a meal for a group of people coming over to keep the NTBMO. It's no wonder alcohol flows so freely on this night.
Then the next day they are up early for double services at some dreary high school gym or Masonic Lodge 150 miles away. The kids get antsy in the back seat and the parents snap at them. Arriving at church they have to help set up the chairs and get the food prepared for the potluck between services. They are worn out by the time the service starts. Then they have to sit there through the same god-awful recycled sermon that they have heard for 30 years. And, those damn metal chairs hurt!
The sermon they hear tells them that they are never good enough for God and to stop sinning. Or, even worse, you have a church leader like Dave Pack who declares himself Elijah and that his name means "Passover". Imagine sitting there hearing that!
Others will be sitting there wondering why they are there because their leader had told them Christ was returning a few days earlier, and yet, here they are listening to another boring sermon about how God has delayed the end time for one more final push. Thanks, Ron and Laura Weinland! As the official Two Witless Witnesses, you are the best!
You could always be a Living Church of God member who was told to examine themselves BEFORE Passover as to why they don't give more money, tithes or support the "work" more diligently.
TITHES AND OFFERINGS: Have you been faithful in paying your tithes to God this past year? Have you been faithful in giving offerings? Be honest with yourself. Stealing from God is a serious matter. "Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ’In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation" (Malachi 3:8–9).
God owns the earth, and everyone and everything on it. He promises to provide our every need (Philippians 4:19). God provides for His children, but some have "little faith" and do not trust Him (Matthew 6:30). He gave this admonition: "’Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now in this,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ’If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it’" (Malachi 3:10). God is the Giver of every good and perfect gift, and He promises to abundantly bless the tithe payer. Those who have faithfully saved their Festival tithe know firsthand the joy God gives at His annual festivals.
Examine your degree of faithfulness this past year with God’s tithe. Have you stolen from God? Have you saved a full Festival tithe? Ask God for the ability to give. Trust and honor Him in your tithes and offerings. If you have been a thief this past year, ask God’s forgiveness, determine to trust Him this coming year, then take the Passover in faith!If there ever was a WTF moment in COGland, this is one of them.
Within that first week after Passover, when the euphoria of being washed clean is still evident, you will get a sermon or a member letter from your church leader who will start lambasting you that the work is being delayed and that Christ cannot return because of the lack of faith of the members.
Certain church leaders like Pack and Flurry will initiate new draconian rules for their members while they claim new enlightenment that God has personally delivered to them. Others like Bob Thiel will tell us about more dreams he has had while expecting us to believe God personally delivered them to him.
It is exhausting to be a COG member at this time of year, both mentally and spiritually.
28-30 “Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” Matthew 11:28-30 The Message (MSG)
55 comments:
Many ACOG members will this year have their happiest Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread in decades, as they will be keeping it alone, or with close friends and family, not under the watchful eyes of superdeacons. It may be hard to convince them to come back to a miserable ACOG Passover service next year.
It certainly is self evident that our Savior , had an exhausting Passover time of the year too, both mentally and spiritually. But he arose victorious!
Hopefully some will even think about what they are doing and why they're taking emblems picturing Jesus' stripes and death before he actually suffered them. It wasn't until after he gave the symbols that he was beaten and died.
He couldn't very well have given them while they were occurring.
This is why for decades my family and I have taken the bread and wine as close to three in the afternoon on the 14th as we can. Then afterward we have a celebratory meal leading into the first day of unleavened bread.
Symbolically it works perfectly. Rather than taking the bread and wine some twenty hours before Jesus died. Then eating leavening for hours after taking the unleavened bread picturing his beaten body and then almost 22 hours after eating and drinking going into the days of U.B.
The passover in Egypt was killed the same time Jesus died. Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Why would the time that a lamb was to be killed be more important than when the True Lamb of God was to be killed?
Jesus was killed between the two evenings, just as commanded.
km
When was the Passover lamb sacrificed? Beginning or ending of the 14th?
EXODUS 12:6 … Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight (Heb Bein ha’arabayim).
Bein Ha’arabayim is the Hebrew expression translated twilight, evening, dusk, or between the two evenings. This is the period between actual sunset (first evening) and total darkness (second evening). Another term used interchangeably is Ba-erev.
EXODUS 16:12-13 … “Speak to them, saying, ‘At twilight (Heb Bein Ha’arabayim) you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread, And you shall know that I am YHVH your God.’” So it was that quail came up at evening (Heb Ba-erev) and covered the camp, and in the morning the dew lay all around the camp.
Example where ba-erev is at the end of the day …
EXODUS 12:18 … In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening (Heb ba-erev), you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening (Heb ba-erev).
If the first ba-erev was at the beginning of the 14th, the second must also be at the beginning of the 21st which would not make sense because no leaven is eaten until the end of the 21st day. Therefore, both ba-erev refer to the end of the 14th and 21st.
Example where ba-erev is at the beginning of the day …
DEUTERONOMY 16:4 … And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight (Heb ba-erev) remain overnight until morning.
The ‘first day’ mentioned is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The ba-erev is at the beginning of the 15th which is also the end of the 14th that’s why the passover sacrifice is mentioned. The passover lamb was killed the ending part of the 14th.
The ACOG's NTBMO coincides with the Jews' Passover Seder.
1:22pm You have me confused. First you say,
"Bein Ha’arabayim is the Hebrew expression translated twilight, evening, dusk, or between the two evenings. This is the period between actual sunset (first evening) and total darkness (second evening)."
But then you say,
"The passover lamb was killed the ending part of the 14th."
Do you believe the day ends at sunset or total darkness?I
While I agree 100% that the lamb was killed at the end of the 14th, I disagree that was between sunset and darkness.
Did Jesus die ben har arbayim or didn't he? I believe he did.
Also, don't let Fred Coulter confuse you with the timing of the quail. He has a lot of assumptions in his explanation. He teaches the quail came after the sabbath but there's nothing in the text that confirms that theory.
km
1. What was the lamb to the Ancient Egyptians?
EXODUS 8:25-26 … Lamb (or goat) was one of Ancient Egypt’s sacred animals which they venerated and worshiped as a deity. By killing the lamb, the Israelites renounced idolatry and demonstrated to God their faith.
2. Did the Passover lamb atone for sin?
No, it was not an atoning sacrifice. It did not remove any sin.
3. Was the Passover blood for the protection of the entire household?
EXODUS 12:12-13 … The firstborn was the only target of the death angel, not the entire household.
4. Was Jesus without blemish when he died?
EXODUS 12:5 … The passover lamb should be without blemish. According to the gospel accounts, Jesus was beaten and bruised before he was crucified. Also, being a Jew, he was circumcised (LUKE 2:21) which PHILIPPIANS 3:2 considers mutilation. This requirement should be treated as a physical one since JOHN 19:36 uses another requirement as physical (EXODUS 12:46, NUMBERS 9:12).
5. Was Jesus' blood shed on the altar?
No, when he died, the second Temple was still standing. His blood was shed outside.
GENESIS 22:9 … Abraham built an altar.
LEVITICUS 17:10-12 … The only use of blood is upon the altar. (Some use verse 11 in claiming that shedding of blood is required for atonement. Reading verses 10 to 12, the context is about prohibiting the consumption of blood whose only use is for the sacrifice. The first word of verse 11 is the conjunction ‘FOR’ which explains the previous verse. Also, LEVITICUS 5:11-13 show that flour can be used in lieu of an animal as a trespass offering.)
6. Is there a sacrifice for presumptuous or intentional sin?
LEVITICUS 4:2 … The sacrifice mentioned in this chapter is only for unintentional sin.
NUMBERS 15:27-29 … The sin offering is only for unintentional sin.
NUMBERS 15:30-31 … There is NO sacrifice for presumptuous or intentional sin. The sinner is cut off and his guilt upon him.
7. Examples where blood was not needed or required for forgiveness of sins …
2 CHRONICLES 33:10-13 … Manasseh, considered to be the most evil king of Judah, was restored after REPENTANCE. He offered peace and thanksgiving offerings (NB not sin or trespass sacrifices) after he was brought back to Jerusalem (verses 15-16).
2 SAMUEL 12:13-14 … David was forgiven after he acknowledged his sins. His son did not die so he would be forgiven (see Ezekiel 18:20). He was already forgiven when Nathan said his son would die.
JONAH 3:10 … The people of Nineveh were forgiven after they turned from their evil way.
ISAIAH 55:6-9 … Any sinner, regardless of the degree of his sins, is forgiven once he forsakes his sinful ways.
DEUTERONOMY 30:1-3 … The principle is the same - the sinner has to return or REPENT to God and God will restore or forgive the sinner.
PSALM 51:15-17 … The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart.
ISAIAH 66:1-2 … To whom will God look: one who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at His word.
EZEKIEL 18:21-23
Boy you can sure tell it's almost Passover. Just got this message on my phone. The Death Angel cometh..... At the end of month, Comet Atlas makes an appearance so that can serve as another Harbinger of Doom. Who let the Four Hosemen of the Puckerlips out???
Booklet Request: "Please send me the 7 Last Plagues"
EMERGENCY ALERT
EXTREME THREAT ALERT
APRIL 7, 2020 4:50 PM
GO HOME. STAY HOME
TRAVEL ONLY FOR WORK AND ESSENTIALS
VIRUS SPREADING IN ALL SC COUNTIES
No2hwa you certainly killed all desire to be a participant in the next week plus.
Speaking of desire, it was said "with desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer". It certainly is a desirous event to take of the symbols with this in mind than the dress all in black, speak not a word among yourselves and hurry home and go to bed super funeral exercise that is played out to perfection in the COGs.
With the bread and the wine being symbolic of life and love, the COG play melts these symbols and recasts them into a character of malice and wickedness. Do this in remembrance of me with a future look at the desire to eat this again in the Kingdom with you is no where to be seen in the COG reenactment that creates again the "great" offense of the smitten shepherd.
Yes, I have no desire to be a practicing participant in death and offense and betrayal. The same betrayal Paul concluded that could lead to weakness, sickness and death of the spiritual kind.
April 2020 and the government is in harmony with the 1st passover with their decree to not leave our homes. The new old normal of not leaving our homes until morning; I don't know why I didn't remember this a long time ago.
Uh...you guys are starting to bring bad bad memories from the 70's plus. Every year the battle of "When was the Passover of the NT?" or "How should we keep the Passover?" Erupted afresh. The reason there is a problem is that the Gospel accounts are muddled and do not match no matter what one thinks about it. The Gospel accounts of both Death and Resurrection of Jesus are hardly harmonious. Throw in trying to compare or harmonize the Old Testament story with the New Testament tale and practice and you got a fight on your hands.
The how and when to keep Passover/Lord's Supper has been one of the most amazing of divisive Church wranglings.
The most simple explanation is that the Old Testament story is exaggerated with lots of other problems and issues and the NT uses the Old Testament to write the Death and Resurrection story of Jesus which is why it looks like prophecy coming alive. The fact is that it is not history prophesied but prophecy historized. For example, Ps 22 sounds so much like an exact prophecy right down to what Jesus said because when writing the story, the NT author needed something for Jesus to say and found it in Ps 22, which really has nothing to do with Jesus to begin with. No author of the Gospels knew what Jesus said. The Gospel writers were originally anonymous. They were not literally Matthew, Mark, Luke or even John. Those names were added later to give them credibility. Long story. Have told it too many times over the last decade. A great study though and will put to rest trying to make a round peg, the OT, fit into the square hole of the NT rendition.
I know you don't believe me.............that's ok :)
Enjoy....
HAT ABOUT THE TRUTH,
The passover service is a funeral procession. The most hated of all of the pagan holydays that the acog's keep. I must say that gave me a flash back. Painful, but sometimes its necessary to be reminded of such things.
Thanking those who were dissenters before I was for showing me the truth about the cult, the Jesus story and where it came from, etc...
km,
I did not mention Jesus. My comment was about the passover lamb the Israelites sacrificed.
My source is Nehemia Gordon.
Aw, c'mon, guys, think positively! The stalkers amongst the COGlodytes that sometimes bug us can't do anything at this time of the year because they are tied up in their Old Covenant Israelite rituals.
BB
Well Dennis I didn't bring the subject up. Did you read the OP? Also, why should anyone believe you? You aren't four, five or six thousand years old. Everything you say is as much speculation as what christians say.
km
4:18pm I don' recall saying that you did mention Jesus. I just asked you a simple question about him and what you believe.
km
The big mystery is how Jesus was killed at the same time the Passover lambs were sacrificed for eating on Passover. So what were Jesus and the disciples keeping the night before.
Some insulting proclaim the Jews do not know their own scriptures, but who else woud know them better?
Many of the world's most brilliant scientists have been or are Jews.
Is it logical to think their religious scholars are dunces?
"2. Did the Passover lamb atone for sin?
No, it was not an atoning sacrifice. It did not remove any sin."
Really?
1Co 5:7 - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Mat 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Maybe my algebra is way off but I was taught that:
a - Christ is our Passover according to Paul.
b - Christ said his blood was to remove sin.
Therefore a + b = c
c - The Passover removes sin.
I agree with you that his death as the Passover lamb only saves the firstborn.
His death as the atonement goat/lamb forgives the world. As does the daily sacrifice, as does all sacrifices. The symbolism is there!
km
1Co 11:26 - For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 5:8 - Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Interesting how Paul was so tied up in Old Covenant Israelite rituals.
"So what were Jesus and the disciples keeping the night before."
They were merely eating supper, something they did every night. Jesus gave the bread and wine symbols at that time because he couldn't very well ask the Romans and Jews later to hold up on the stripes, or hold up on the crucifixion until he gave the New Testament emblems.
I've mentioned before how the phrase "I shall eat the Passover" is a mistranslation. The word eat is in the subjunctive mood, meaning it might not happen. It would have been more accurately translated "where I might eat the Passover".
km
km,
Do you know where it's stated in Tanakh that the Passover lamb atones for sin? Also, where is it stated in Tanakh that a person's blood removes sins? Is vicarious atonement taught in Tanakh? Read the entire Ezekiel 18.
None of the synoptic writers associate Jesus with the Passover lamb. They wrote that the Last Supper took place on the first DUB (Check the Greek interlinear of Mt 26:17, Mk 14:12, Lk 22:7). The same time the Jews were having their Passover meal.
One cannot dismiss Tanakh. It's 'supposedly' the foundation of the NT. Unfortunately, the NT distorted the words of Tanakh.
It is intereting to contemplate two historic Passovers, and to compare them to what could be ongoing for some of the ACOGs as they take it this year.
In the time of Moses, it accompanied the Israelites being spared from death of their firstborn, and escaping to freedom from slavery. This year, it could very well become a time when death affects and is spread by church members who refuse to go along with the best common sense guidelines during an pandemic. This could lead to further enslavement for the members and the outsiders who are actually heeding the guidelines, as the govenrment clamps down on disease-spreading scofflaws in an effort to control the virus.
In the time of Jesus, it was taken accompanying the emerging realization that Jesus, another type of firstborn, would surely die and become the lasting embodiment of Passover. And, of course, in the movement known as Armstrongism, He has instead become that "inconvenient dude" who rather than being the ultimate standout as suggested by the transfiguration, has always been relegated to the lesser role of being processed and distilled through Moses.
BB
Oh, how I identify with this. The only FOT I really enjoyed somewhat was the one in Long Beach, just a few miles away. Those trips were tiring and the exhausting schedule got to be a real grind. One year, I bumped my foot on a metal bed and it swelled up a bit, so I claimed I had an infection and stayed at the rented cabin a couple of days. I often wonder why I was so dumb as to tough it out as long as I did.
#8:42AM
Meanwhile David Pack has given his story yet again (..) a new twist, telling the RCG members he now knows (for sure!) when the Big Event will happen! It’s like watching a soap series, with a new cliffhanger every week over the last year or so. Making you wonder why there’s still people falling for it..
This is the Packsters latest announcement:
Our Passover Watch Continues!
By now it is clear God wanted at least some of us to keep the Passover. Everyone east of the U.S. concluded services hours ago, which presented a great question: Does God want all brethren to take the symbols a final time?
Passover is a fixed date. It is not going to move. It is still the Day of Christ—the Last Day—“that Day”— and everything else we have come to understand. Of course, what we have long wrestled with is when events begin to unfold. Related to the question above, a second great question emerged: Would Christ really return before His day (Passover)?
The answer that perhaps should have been evident is a resounding no! Before proving this, let’s reason together. Which day would God want to memorialize—Abib 13 or Passover itself, Abib 14? Would God merely “come close” when aiming for a great Passover event? How could “THAT DAY” come “unawares” (Luke 21:34) on ANYONE if events began to unfold the day before?
There is simplicity in Christ, and this has proven truer than ever at the end. You will almost certainly agree by the end of this letter!
Deuteronomy 16:1 becomes even more central: “Observe the month of Abib, and keep the Passover unto the LORD your God…” Our watch is inextricably tied to Passover!
Many verses support this understanding:
* First consider I Corinthians 11:26. We “eat this bread, and drink this cup” showing Christ’s death “till He come.” In one sense this could be taken to mean right up until He comes!
* Verse 27 shows how much turns on this: “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.” We have long understood the process of self-examination that precedes Passover. Yet think about this in relation to the imminent period of judgment when Christ arrives. In verse 29, Paul adds, “He that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation [judgment] to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”
* Ask: In light of I Corinthians 11, might God want to see how His people scattered across multiple continents in multiple groups—and in a world under lockdown—take their final Passover, ahead of the Great (Passover) Supper that will occur later in Abib 14?
* Peter wrote, “the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God” (I Peter 4:17). What better way to start this judgment than all God’s people observing a final Passover service?
* Revelation 22:11-12 reads: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And behold, I come quickly [after this judgment process begins!]; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Brethren: nothing will happen before all have taken the Passover—nothing even can! Nothing was ever scheduled to start before Abib 14. That was always God’s target date—the last day possible that we could “back into.”
We have all been intently watching, and now will through Passover evening. Every “night” verse we have considered comes into play. The night they speak of apparently points to tonight! Of course, on a round earth, many who have already kept the Passover would again be working, satisfying other verses we have long had to factor into the prophetic puzzle. Maintain faith—and HOPE!—to the very end. Passover has not moved. We have merely moved closer to Passover. We are so very close!
8:09pm First of all the New Testament scriptures that you cite do not say "the first day of unleavened bread". The word day isn't in the Greek nor is the word bread.
It says the first of the unleaveneds. So if you think that the "Lord's supper" was on the 15th, you assume much.
I agree that we shouldn't dismiss the O.T. but if Jesus said that his blood was for the remission of sin then I don't care if the O.T. doesn't reinforce that.
I'm not about to spend my precious time debating Passover with you.
Good day!
km
For nearly 30 years my family has kept Passover at home. My father, myself, my wife and kids (kids help read scripture and wash feet if they want to), my two sisters, a brother in law and all their kids. Usually about 13 or 14 of us.
This year, this afternoon at 3:00pm, it will only be myself, my wife and my 83 year old father at our house because of covid-19. However we will be group Skyping Passover with my daughter in Pittsburgh, my sister who lives about 20 miles away, my niece and her husband and daughter who live about 10 miles away, and hopefully my son and his pregnant wife in Houston will tune in. (they kept it last night with her parents)
Definitely a sad time because my daughter-in-law in Houston is due the 17th with our first grandchild. A girl, Isobel. We have no idea when we'll get to hold her for the first time because of this pandemic. As soon as the pediatrician gives the word that it's ok we'll be heading to Houston. Most likely driving that 22 hour trip. We had to cancel the airplane tickets that we had bought several months ago.
km
"The same time the Jews were having their Passover meal."
It's funny how you made sure to mention only the synoptic gospels for your belief that the same night Jesus ate the last supper that the Jews were eating the Passover. Your belief being that night to be the 15th.
Here's what you wrote:
"They wrote that the Last Supper took place on the first DUB (Check the Greek interlinear of Mt 26:17, Mk 14:12, Lk 22:7). The same time the Jews were having their Passover meal."
You wrote that because you know full well that John contradicts your timeline.
Jhn 18:28 - Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
So, which is it?
I think the problem lies in your interpretation, not in the bible itself.
km
km,
You quoted my words but fail to include the first sentence 'None of the synoptic writers associate Jesus with the Passover lamb.'. They couldn't associate him to the Passover lamb because they ate the Last Supper with him on the same night the Jews were eating the Passover meal. With regards to John, I did not include him because he's the one who associates Jesus to the Passover lamb, together with Paul.
km said: First of all the New Testament scriptures that you cite do not say "the first day of unleavened bread". The word day isn't in the Greek nor is the word bread.
It says the first of the unleaveneds. So if you think that the "Lord's supper" was on the 15th, you assume much.
Let's take the Greek of Mk 14:12, "Kai te prote hemera ton azymon", translated to "And on the first day of unleavened". The Greek hemera means day, see Strongs G2250.
I have yet to encounter the [entire day of] 14th being referred to as the first day of unleavened. As we both know, leaven can still be eaten on the 14th.
It's not my interpretation, it is what the text says. Here's what Bart Ehrman has to say Ehrman & Licona: Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? Part 1. The link starts at the 44:04 mark so you wouldn't need to hunt for it. The topic is just 2.5 mins long. I hope you can spare your precious time.
Chag HaMatzot Sameach!
km said: I agree that we shouldn't dismiss the O.T. but if Jesus said that his blood was for the remission of sin then I don't care if the O.T. doesn't reinforce that.
Deu 4:2, You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32, Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.
Ex 32:33, And YHVH said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Deu 24:16, Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he did not execute, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which YHVH commanded, saying, “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Jer 31:30, But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Eze 18:20, The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Ps 49:7, None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—
Num 35:33, So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.
12:11pm So which is the liar? John? Mark? Both? Ehrman? God? Jesus?
"I have yet to encounter the [entire day of] 14th being referred to as the first day of unleavened. As we both know, leaven can still be eaten on the 14th."
Mar 14:12 - And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
I have yet to encounter the killing of the passover on the 15th!
km
km,
Please read again the comment made on April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM:
Example where ba-erev is at the beginning of the day …
DEUTERONOMY 16:4 … And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight (Heb ba-erev) remain overnight until morning.
The ‘first day’ mentioned is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The ba-erev is at the beginning of the 15th which is also the end of the 14th that’s why the passover sacrifice is mentioned. The passover lamb was killed the ending part of the 14th.
The [original] Passover lamb was killed on the ending part of the 14th which is also the beginning of the 15th.
What I wrote: I have yet to encounter the [entire day of] 14th being referred to as the first day of unleavened. As we both know, leaven can still be eaten on the 14th.
"The [original] Passover lamb was killed on the ending part of the 14th which is also the beginning of the 15th."
Really? The end of the 14th is also the beginning of the 15th.
Forgive me for calling bullshit!
How many hours does that make the sabbath since the end part of the preparation day is also the beginning of the sabbath?
I'm ending my participation in this now since you obviously make up your own rules to fit your convoluted idea of what you think the bible says!
Tell me, does Ex. 12 or Lev. 23 say that the passover is to be killed on the 14th which is also part of the 15th?
Is the end of the first month also the beginning of the second month?
Are you your own grandfather?
Yes, I'm mocking you!
Good bye!
For those of you who think that I was too hard on this fella please read Mark 14:12-17.
This guy is claiming that the time all this is occurring is between sunset and dark.
Meaning the disciples not only were asking Jesus where to keep the passover, but they had the time to find the goodman of the house, ask him where the guestchamber was, prepare the passover and then arrive as verse 17 says at evening, this would be the supposed "second evening" as this fella thinks the first evening was sunset.
Mind you, if this is what this guy believes in his heart fine, I believe God looks on the heart and will not condemn anyone whose heart is right. Nevertheless his timeline, his scenario is impossible.
km
Mar 15:42 - And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
Since you believe that Jesus died on the 15th, the first day of unleavened bread, then you believe it was also the preparation day.
It seems like the first sermon at the DOULB and the FOT I'd always the same "Why are we here " routine
Right up there with HWAs two trees
km,
I thought you already said your 'good bye' and 'ending your participation'. Ok, let's continue …
You said, referring to Mk 14:12-17, 'This guy is claiming that the time all this is occurring is between sunset and dark.'
I never made such claim. Go read all of my comments on April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM, 1:51PM, 4:18PM, 8:09PM; and April 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM, 12:58PM, 2:25PM.
If you have a problem with the timeline, blame it on the storyteller the Catholic Church named Mark. Btw, Passover meal was eaten after dark. This is also the case for today's Passover seder.
Mark used the Greek word 'pascha', translated Passover, for the meal they ate. When do the Jews eat the Passover? The night/evening/dark period of the 15th. All of the three synoptic gospel writers use variation of the phrase 'Now on the first day of unleavened …' (Mk 14:12, Mt 26:17, Lk 22:7). All of them identified the Last Supper as Passover (Gk pascha). None of them associated Jesus with the Passover lamb. Compare that with Jn 13:1, 'Now before the feast of the Passover …'. The next verse identified their meal as supper (Gk deipnon), a regular dinner.
"Anonymous said...
km,
I thought you already said your 'good bye' and 'ending your participation'. Ok, let's continue …"
You made a ridiculous comment:
"The [original] Passover lamb was killed on the ending part of the 14th which is also the beginning of the 15th."
So I had to respond, mostly for the benefit of readers who might be interested. I realize that you're too committed to your convoluted explanation for me having any hope of changing your mind. My responses are to the reader, if any, reading this.
You say that you never made such a claim, but you did. You claim ben har arbayim is between sunset and dark. Which is about an hour or so period. You claim that period is both the end of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th.
You also said the whole day of the 14th is never called "the first day of unleavened bread" so obviously if this is when the passover is killed, according to you that (Mark 14:12) would have to have been after sunset at the end of the 14th but before the second evening (ba arev).
So, according to your rendering, the disciples asked Jesus where to prepare, went to look for the goodman, asked him where the guestchamber was, prepared the room and (supposedly according to you) the passover, and then by the second evening (verse 17) had all that finished.
They supposedly did all that after sunset and before the first star was visible.
That's foolishness!
You can blame the "Catholic church" or Mark all that you want, but the blame is your insistence that you have the proper understanding.
The real scenario is that verse 12 is definately after sunset beginning the 14th, the day the passover was killed, but it wasn't killed until the next afternoon and the passover meal would be eaten the next night at the beginning of the 15th.
They had plenty of time to do all that they had to do to prepare for the passover because that wouldn't be eaten until the next night.
That night was not the passover, they were merely eating a meal.
You keep insisting that when they asked Jesus where to prepare for the passover that they were equating the last supper as the passover. That is not accurate. They very well could have been, and were, preparing for the meal the next evening. They didn't know that Jesus would be killed the next day and though Jesus knew, he hoped that God would find another way, hence his prayer in the garden later.
Which is also why Jesus never said that he would definitely eat the passover. Every time he mentions eating it the word is in the subjunctive mood meaning it was only a possibility. As I said he was hoping God would change his mind.
Your insistence that they were eating the passover is where your timeline goes off the track. They weren't. So you can't blame anyone but yourself for your misunderstanding.
My timeline works perfectly, yours, not so much.
km
One other thing concerning Mark 14:12 the Greek word translated "unleavened bread" merely implies bread, there is no greek word for bread used here. It just says unleaveneds.
What it is saying is the first day of the unleaveneds. Unleaveneds because the Greek word is in the plural.
Just as Jews today call the entire eight day season Passover how do we know that Jews back then didn't call the entire eight days the unleaveneds? We don't!
Therefore since this guys understanding of the synoptic gospels doesn't match John, who's to blame? John, Mark, the Catholic church? Or perhaps him? Because he refuses to acknowledge that he could be wrong.
This is part of Bart Ehrman's problem, he's a historian not a theologian, but he insists that there are discrepancies in the bible because of his preconceived assumptions.
Believe what you want!
km
km said on April 9, 2020 at 6:07 AM, "You say that you never made such a claim, but you did. You claim ben har arbayim is between sunset and dark. Which is about an hour or so period. You claim that period is both the end of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th."
The bein ha'arabayim comment was made on April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM. Did I make any reference to Mk 14? The verses I quoted were Exodus and Deuteronomy. That comment was about the passover in Egypt. It was a domestic passover which was different from the Temple passover, with respect to time and person killing the lamb.
The first time I mentioned Mk 14 was in the comment on April 7, 2020 at 8:09 PM which was a response to the one you made on April 7, 2020 at 6:30 PM where you gave your 'algebra'. In my comment, I asked you the following: Do you know where it's stated in Tanakh that the Passover lamb atones for sin? Also, where is it stated in Tanakh that a person's blood removes sins? Is vicarious atonement taught in Tanakh? You still haven't given any Tanakh verse. It is in this comment that I mentioned Mk 14 to point out the synoptic gospels silence on linking Jesus to the Passover lamb.
Where did I make the claim you are accusing me of?
Here's what LCG has to say about the two evenings:
The Hebrew phrase translated “at dusk” in the JPS and “at even” in the KJV would be literally translated “between the two evenings.” This phrase is used several times in the Old Testament and these various usages show what it properly means.
Dusk, or the period between sunset and total darkness, is the proper meaning of “between the two evenings,” later Jewish tradition notwithstanding. Defining this as the afternoon period between noon and sunset was simply an attempt by the Pharisees to justify their tradition of a mid-afternoon Passover sacrifice and to read it back into the text.
To be clear, the position of LCG is different from mine in regards to the time of the actual killing of the original Passover lamb (again, see my comment of April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM). I did not read the entire article. I only searched for its position regarding the 'between the two evenings'.
km said on April 9, 2020 at 7:31 AM, "Just as Jews today call the entire eight day season Passover how do we know that Jews back then didn't call the entire eight days the unleaveneds? We don't!"
I don't know of any verse in Tanakh where the entire day of 14th is called DUB. Probably you can find the Tanakh verse, do let me know. The reason why Jews call the DUB Passover is because the night of the 15th is when they eat the Passover.
I don't care what LCG has to say about the two evenings.
I can see why you've come to the conclusion that you have. You are not logical!
You plainly said that in Exodus that ben har arbayim is between sunset and dark. You also plainly said that in Mark 12 they killed the Passover between the evenings ending the 14th and beginning the 15th. Therefore everything that was done between verse 12 and 17 had to be done in that short hour or so time period. Impossible.
Tell me, why does the Rabbinical teaching that ben har arbayim is between noon and sunset fit the synoptic gospels, John, and Paul, but your explanation, according to you, only fits the synoptic gospels?
The reason is that your explanation is not logical!
Again, believe what you want, I don't care. If you're trying to obey God as best that you can I believe he respects that. That doesn't mean that your explanation is logical though because it's not!
km
If there is anyone reading this discussion I just did a search on ben har arbayim and though I haven't read the entire article that I'm about to present their conclusion is the same as mine. Again, this is the first time that I've seen this site meaning I didn't get my understanding from them.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/arbayim.htm
km
Again, I really should start listening to Mark Twain. lol
km
km said on April 9, 2020 at 12:17 PM: "You also plainly said that in Mark 12 they killed the Passover between the evenings ending the 14th and beginning the 15th."
Where did I make the above statement? Even with the correct chapter, Mark 14, I never made such statement. I wrote down last night all of my comments for you to check - April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM, 1:51PM, 4:18PM, 8:09PM; and April 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM, 12:58PM, 2:25PM.
You need to quote me accurately for what you are accusing me of.
1:11pm When do you believe between the evenings is?
Anon April 9, 2020 at 4:29 PM,
see comment on April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM
1:22pm "Bein Ha’arabayim is the Hebrew expression translated twilight, evening, dusk, or between the two evenings. This is the period between actual sunset (first evening) and total darkness (second evening). Another term used interchangeably is Ba-erev."
Whether you linked Mark 14 to it or not is moot.
8:09pm "They wrote that the Last Supper took place on the first DUB (Check the Greek interlinear of Mt 26:17, Mk 14:12, Lk 22:7). The same time the Jews were having their Passover meal."
One has to kill the passover before they can eat it, so since you used Mk 14:12 as an example you're saying that somewhere between verse 12 and 17 they killed the passover. Whether you wrote those exact words or not doesn't matter.
Now quit playing silly games expecting an exact quote. You said the passover is killed between sunset and dark, if in Mk 14 they were eating a passover meal then they had to have killed it between sunset at the end of the 14th and by Mk 14:17 the supposed second evening.
If this is how you reason it's no wonder that you're totally confused.
Have a great feast,
km
To- April 7, 2020 at 1:22 PM, 1:51PM, 4:18PM, 8:09PM; and April 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM, 12:58PM, 2:25PM.
What the hell is wrong with you man?
km said on April 9, 2020 at 4:51 PM: "Now quit playing silly games expecting an exact quote. You said the passover is killed between sunset and dark, if in Mk 14 they were eating a passover meal then they had to have killed it between sunset at the end of the 14th and by Mk 14:17 the supposed second evening.
If this is how you reason it's no wonder that you're totally confused.
What I wrote on:
April 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM: "I did not mention Jesus. My comment was about the passover lamb the Israelites sacrificed."
April 8, 2020 at 2:25 PM: "The [original] Passover lamb was killed on the ending part of the 14th which is also the beginning of the 15th."
April 9, 2020 at 11:10 AM: "Here's what LCG has to say about the two evenings: … Defining this as the afternoon period between noon and sunset was simply an attempt by the Pharisees to justify their tradition of a mid-afternoon Passover sacrifice and to read it back into the text."
The LCG article by John H Ogwyn even states that the mid-afternoon Passover sacrifice (he was referring to the 2nd Temple period) was a tradition by the Pharisees/Jews. I hope you can recognize the difference with my April 7@4:18PM comment using the term Israelites instead of Jews. Never have I made the comment that the 2nd Temple Passover lamb was killed between sunset and dark.
John Ogwyn didn't know what he was talking about. So your quoting him is meanongless.
I never said that you made the comment that the Temple Passover was between sunset and dark.
Do you deny that you believe that the disciples in Mark 14 killed the Passover between sunset and dark? We're not discussing the Temple killings, which imo was at the correct time.
Are you even capable of giving a straight answer to the question above? I'm not asking for a reference back to one of your comments, I want to know if you believe the disciples killed a lamb ben har arbayim, which you claim to be between sunset and dark.
km
km said, "Do you deny that you believe that the disciples in Mark 14 killed the Passover between sunset and dark?
I do not believe the gospels are accurate. Did you watch Ehrman's video?
Isn't it obvious to you that I do not believe in Jesus? I told you to read all my comments. You said that I was confused when in fact you're the one who is very confused. You've been falsely accusing me of things. Your conclusions were incorrect. You even called LCG and me illogical when you're the one who cannot follow logic with respect to the flow of this thread.
Do not arrive at the wrong conclusion that I am an atheist, agnostic, unitarian, messianic, Orthodox Jew or Karaite Jew. I do not have a religious label. I believe in YHVH, the one Jesus called Father. Tanakh is the only scriptures for me. As I've said before, the foundation of the NT is supposedly Tanakh. Yet, the NT contradicts and misquotes Tanakh. They both cannot be true. If Tanakh is false, the NT is false as well. Do not get me wrong, there are good life lessons in NT that I appreciate. But I have to be careful and check everything I read in NT if it conforms to Tanakh. As canon, Tanakh is the gold standard which other writings, such as NT and Oral Law, should be compared with. If there is any discrepancy, I choose Tanakh/Torah because of Deu 12:32-13:5.
I raised the issue of the synoptic gospels because they contradict John's regarding the timing of the Last Supper. The synoptic version of the Last Supper was a Passover meal. Unlike John, they did not associate Jesus with the Passover lamb. There are other contradictions among the 4 gospels. If one conflates the 4 gospels, one arrives at a 5th gospel (gospel according to that person). Tatian did this in his Diatessaron.
Let's just end this thread and enjoy the DUB.
You are the one confused. John does not contradict the synoptic gospels. You think he does but you're wrong.
When I said that you believed that the disciples in Mark 14 killed the passover between sunset and dark I didn't mean that you believed in Jesus or in Marks gospel, just that is what you thought it was saying.
I don't give a damn what your real beliefs are because you've shown yourself to be a mixed up person. Much like Daryll Conder a former WCG minister who doesn't have a clue what he believes any more.
You kept saying that Mark 14:12 said the first DUB, that's not what it says. It says the first day of the unleaveneds when they killed the passover. That is the 14th whether you can accept that in your twisted mind or not that is irrelevant.
The synoptic version of the last supper WAS NOT a passover meal. That's just what you, in your convoluted way of thinking, think.
Look at the Greek of Mark 14:14, Jesus did not say "where I shall eat the passover" as many versions have. The word eat is in the subjunctive mood. It says "where I might eat the passover".
He didn't eat it because he was the passover. The passover meal was the next night when he was dead.
Just because you're unable to understand what the synoptic writers were saying doesn't mean they contracted John or Paul.
I've listened enough to Ehrman and read his blogs to know that he's a fine historian but a piss-poor theologian. As are you.
My sister and brother-in-law got mixed up in the same shit that you are in and now they don't believe in God or keep the sabbath or feasts. In their own words "we're confused". Which is what you are too.
One other thing, if you think the synoptic gospels place Jesus' death on the 15th, and John calls the day after his death a high sabbath, what made that day a high sabbath? It would have been just like any other sabbath.
It's sad that anyone can allow themselves to get so messed up!
km
11:15am Why didn't you just clearly say at 4:18pm that you didn't believe in Jesus? Did you expect km to read your mind? Why have you been so cryptic with all your posts?
Contradicted not contracted, thank you auto correct.
km
"I do not believe the gospels are accurate. Did you watch Ehrman's video?"
Was there something in the video that was supposed to tell me that you didn't believe the gospels are accurate? I know what Ehrman believes but you didn't say "Watch this to see what I believe."
By your not mentioning Jesus was I supposed to automatically know that you don't believe in Jesus?
You have a lot of assumptions!
km
Consider this:
http://www.truthsearch.org/ContentsFirstDayofUnleavenedBread.html
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