Bob Thiel notes:
"In II Corinthians 3:14 -16 unconverted experts who claim to have knowledge tend to have a veil of blindness so there are just areas they just can't see. Always learning and never able to come to knowledge of the truth...."
Dr Bob refers to but fails to actually quote...
"Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the LORD, the veil is taken away."
Before continuing, and just for fun, I'd like to point out how Paul and now Bob Thiel in his simplistic "Because the Bible say so" preaching, turned the story of Moses and the Veil on it's head, making it mean what it never meant.
The actual story referred to is...
"As Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands, he did not know that the skin of his face had become radiant while he conversed with the LORD….the children of Israel…were afraid to come near him….He put a veil over his face. Whenever Moses entered the presence of the LORD to converse with him, he removed the veil until he came out again. On coming out, he would tell the children of Israel all that had been commanded. Then the children of Israel would see that the skin of Moses’ face was radiant; so he would again put the veil over his face until he went in to converse with the LORD (Exodus 34)."
Paul says the veil, now a blindfold, was so the Israelites could not see the end of the law coming. They were blindfolded by the veil. To this day they remain ignorant of the meaning of their own scriptures. Jesus took away the veil of this ignorance. Even to this day, the veil is a blindfold to the Jews , to their eyes and now to their hearts. But it's all good. Jesus can take away the blindfold.
Of course, this is not what the ACTUAL story in Exodus says or means. It actually says the opposite. The people saw and understood the Law of God very well when Moses explained it to them. Giving the Law as presented to him by God made his face shine! The veil had NOTHING to do with being a blindfold on Moses or the people. Paul, as is his custom, is overreaching here for a way to weave his tale in the New Testament.
The reality of the story...
Moses is given the Law on Mt Sinai by God. Coming down the mountain to deliver the Law to the Children of Israel he did not realize his face shone having been in God's presence and it frightened the people to see it so. Moses puts on a veil to cover the glory of God's brightness, in his own face, when he is NOT SPEAKING with God. He would not wear the veil in God's presence.
So here, God is giving Moses and Israel the Law and the veil is not worn when Moses is with God. A veil is worn to shield the people from the "afterglow", so to speak, as it frightens them, when Moses comes down the mountain after being with God.
The giving of the Law of God to Moses causes Moses face to shine. It does not blind him to the law. It does not foreshadow the passing away of the Law in the New Testament. The glory of the Law being given by God shines through him.
The veil is NOT a BLINDFOLD as Paul makes it out to be in the NT. The veil is NOT a symbol of the glory of the law passing such that it is now a blindfold on the Jews.
Paul turns the meaning of the story on its head to fit his Gospel tale. Paul often does this and is the master of making the OT mean what it never meant. How he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees, "above his fellows, concerning the law, blameless" etc is beyond most theologians.
Bob, claims himself to be a Bible scholar in this presentation. Most Church of God Apostles, Prophets and Pastors, would have claimed a similar training, at least of some sort, if they wish to be considered credible. However, you'd never know it from this presentation.
Sheldon Monson, no doubt, would have to claim the same thing. After all, he is starting his own True Church. But Sheldon too is just another Bible reader needing a following after being rejected by Mom.
Both these men are not Bible Scholars but just Bible readers and Biblical Hobbyists, wearing a blindfold to that reality.... to this day.
(Note: I also am not a Bible Scholar. My WCG training did not qualify as actual Biblical studies. It did not actually prepare me or anyone I know for ministry. One simply got thrown into the Lion's Den of ministry and learned the hard way if they learned at all. In WCG and now in all the splinters, Pastors are simply teaching what the leadership believes and expects to be taught. There is no discussion, no challenges to interpretation, and no wiggle room to see anything differently than taught and not be dis-membered. There is certainly no accountability or checks and balances on stupidity, egocentric beliefs, or cornball ideas. "Come let us reason TOGETHER" is never how it worked. It can't in such a "because I say so" culture.)
And now we return to your normally scheduled programming
25 comments:
It's pathetic to see how Bob tries to discuss a topic with no relevance to his own church, in a blatant attempt to recruit disaffected members of other churches. What ever happened to doing a positive work and attracting people on the basis of the good fruits of your work?
Thiel has the intellectual capacity of stumbling, bubbling Joe Biden. Its a sad joke that anyone would see this hack job as scholarly. It is not.
The more I watch Bob andhis online videos the more ignorant he sounds. I have never seen a COG leader who is so incredibly ill-informed on his topics as I am with Bob. Has he ever done any real research without using confirmation bias?
What do you expect from someone with a fake degree from India? He was never able to fully graduate from a United States College where he had to do real studies. A class here and there is not a degree. Even his published articles in "peer" holistic magazines are a convoluted mess of nonsense. He was as widely mocked by the holistic crowd as much as he is from COG people.
What do you expect from someone with a fake degree
I'd rather not discredit Bob's work on the quality of his ThD - which he never uses on his theological tomes, it's always his legitimate PhD. He picked up bad theology like the rest of us, through indoctrination by HWA and his AC scholars. And I think his stint in Spokesman's Club should have given him more polish - the only thing I heard him talk about in that regard was the bad reception his speech against football received.
Another gaslighting article by Dennis whereby he attempts to invalidate the readers understanding of the bible. Only the big people, seminary trained are qualified to discern what the bible means. So "prove all things" is just for the big people, with the little people blindly believing what they are told. Just like with the Catholic Church during the dark ages.
This is what 1984s Big Brother taught it's citizens. It invalidated their observations, experiences, and even denied the existence of a external reality.
Big Bother defined everything.
Dennis did nothing of the sort! Any person with half an education (outside of the COG) can see that Thiel is a theological idiot. His mindless wanderings, speculations, and prideful boasting make all of his videos and sermons shallow and inept in their facts. Thiel operates at a grade school level understanding, or at the least, freshman high school Bible class level. He has never advanced further and that is the reason his sermons are so incredibly bad. Spokesman Club obviously never helped this guy either
I would like to request that Dennis Diehl find a way to be more clear about when he is commenting and when he is quoting. It would help those of us, formerly associated with WCG, who are not familiar with current teachings in various groups,or with Dennis' personal beliefs.
Some readers are strong believers to whom God has revealed His word and the finished work of Jesus Christ; and we are just coming to this site for entertainment value. It is my experience that the Epistles used in Worldwide to show that it is currently necessary to keep the law, actually show that it is NOT necessary to keep the law.
Thanks for any future efforts to clarify who is saying what.
What Dennis wrote was scholarly and a examination on the writing's of commentary scholars will show that Dennis is correct.
The Thiel video shows that Bob's incompetence is once again at work with another useless YouTube video, a production made by a theological idiot that must be refuted.
Anon September 6, 2020 at 8:16 PM, You don't know what gaslighting is. It is Thiel that gaslights people.
The Painful Truth:
I think you met "bumbling" instead of "bubbling." Bubbling just doesn't fit your intended picture. And speaking of ill-fitting, comparing him to Joe Biden is a vast compliment. It would have been a real cut if you had compared him to the Great Orange Buffoon.
7.57 AM
I'm about to start reading my second book on gaslighting, so I think I know what gaslighting is. Gaslighting is always a calculated attempt to deceive. They know they are lying.
Bob Thiel by contrast, other than lying about being a prophet, believes his theology is correct. He tries to persuade rather than con his readers to ditch their minds to some authority figure.
Anon 155 noted " A class here and there is not a degree.
I ran into that little bit of hilarity when Art Mokarrow had me debate him Tyler a few years back. He brought another "scholar" up on the stage with him. This was news to me but no biggy. He introduced him as "An Oxford trained theologian". No problem either, thought I, as if he is, he and I will agree on many things.
The problem came up quickly when this "scholar' starting talking about Adam and Eve as if they were really our first parents, snakes talk and so on. No Oxford trained theologian would ever say that or take the story literally.
Besides, he, to me, sounded like a hayseed in his manner of talking. He said he had taken classes at Oxford and I believe Art thought he meant he got his education at Oxford, UK. But someone was busy looking the man up online and put a 3x5 card in my lap with two words....
"Oxford, Tennessee" Now it made sense.
"Oxford, Tennessee" Now it made sense.
September 7, 2020 at 11:52 AM
Yep. Its called deception. A lie. And no doubt, justified lying which to the believer, is not a sin.
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Neo September 7, 2020 at 8:57 AM
Yes, bumbling Boib.
As far as the orange one goes, Trump is a sign of the times. It really ain't about him, it is about the state and its lying, failed policies that people are pissed at. And much, much more....
"Oxford, Tennessee"
Was the scholar Jethro Bodine? I remember hearing he was an Oxford scholar impressed Miss Jane.
12.24 AM
If you observe a person before becoming a minister, while being a minister, and then after no longer being minister, their behavior is the same. The bible is not there.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Oxford, Tennessee"
Was the scholar Jethro Bodine? I remember hearing he was an Oxford scholar impressed Miss Jane.
cousin :)
"If you observe a person before becoming a minister, while being a minister, and then after no longer being minister, their behavior is the same. The bible is not there.
September 7, 2020 at 2:53 PM"
I agree! That pretty much sums up Herbert Armstrong, Rod Meredith, Bob Thiel, David Pack, Vik Kubik, Gerald Flurry, Jim Franks. The Bible has never been important to these men. These men led disgusting lives before ministry, during ministry, and now as the pretend to be ministers.
3.23 PM,
In other words, they don't know the Bible? Bur I learnt a lot from Herbert Armstrong, no?
Entertainment value? Puts the strong believers line into disrepute.
How do you know.
6.41 PM
They do know their bible, but they ignore what it says. To ministers, the bible is just a tool of power and control.
I must agree with 3:23, after all, he is 130 years old.
Nck
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
3:12-18 It is the duty of the ministers of the gospel to use great plainness, or clearness, of speech. The Old Testament believers had only cloudy and passing glimpses of that glorious Saviour, and unbelievers looked no further than to the outward institution. But the great precepts of the gospel, believe, love, obey, are truths stated as clearly as possible. And the whole doctrine of Christ crucified, is made as plain as human language can make it. Those who lived under the law, had a veil upon their hearts. This veil is taken away by the doctrines of the Bible about Christ. When any person is converted to God, then the veil of ignorance is taken away. The condition of those who enjoy and believe the gospel is happy, for the heart is set at liberty to run the ways of God's commandments. They have light, and with open face they behold the glory of the Lord. Christians should prize and improve these privileges. We should not rest contented without knowing the transforming power of the gospel, by the working of the Spirit, bringing us to seek to be like the temper and tendency of the glorious gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and into union with Him. We behold Christ, as in the glass of his word; and as the reflection from a mirror causes the face to shine, the faces of Christians shine also.
To: September 7, 2020 at 8:43 pm
Dear Anonymous, Thank you for your comment. You are correct and I appreciate your correction of my thoughtless comment. After giving consideration to your correction I was ashamed of what I had said, and went to God, asking Him to forgive me and to give me a clean heart. I'm asking you to also forgive me. I deeply regret what I said and you have helped me to see things differently. For that I am grateful.
In reality, this site does not entertain. It gives insight into the tragedy of lives oppressed and broken by false ministries and false prophets. My prayer is that our God of love will set free His people who are in these groups, heal them from what they have suffered, comfort them, and give them a revelation of truth through the power of the Holy Spirit. Again, thank you.
I'm Anon 8:43.
Oh it's you I see.
The deception you spin is called apostasy. The 'love' you want in the Church is a chaotic free for all involving all manner of ungodly sin.
Anyway it's too late. About 25 years too late. So the joke is really on yourself.
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