Within the past week or so I had a once-in-a-lifetime talk on the phone with the only person I probably would ever ask my one lifelong WCG ministry question to that I would trust to give me as true an answer to as any human being could. I won't say who, but to me, a most, if not the most credible source I could personally ever hope to ask my one burning question to. I'll leave it at that.
But after an hour and a half or so on the phone, I finally realized that this was the one person I could ask and pretty much get the best answer possible. In other words, to me, the only credible source to ask. I had my own view based on observation through the years and as the drama and trauma that unfolded in the WCG until my sentence in it as a pastor was up. This explanation resonated with me personally and I accept it.
I know for others it would never be and that's ok too. We all have a story and all of our experiences, at whatever level we had it, are valid in one's own personal interpretation of it all.
MY QUESTION:
"Was Herbert Armstrong sincere in his beliefs?"
THE ANSWER
"Yes, absolutely…"
MY NEXT QUESTION:
"What went wrong?"
THE ANSWER
From one I would finally trust to know, unshaded and with no reason to paint it any other way.
The gist.... (Not direct quotes)
Herbert Armstrong was very naïve as to the personalities and motives of the men he surrounded himself with. He trusted that every one that came to him was telling him the truth and many were not or shaded it for advantage. When HWA finally figured it out it was generally too late and reactions were not always helpful either. The damage done was done. He had the inability or did not choose to see or believe what others said they saw and tried to tell him. He was slow to believe bad things about people. He often seemed incredulous that someone was actually doing what he was told they were doing or had lied to him when he had to admit something to be so....etcYou get the point. I did not record it but this is the gist of the answer given to my one lifelong question about HWA. It has always been my own personal opinion from all I observed over nearly three decades. I never saw HWA as a religious con man. I did not see him as conniving to achieve outcomes one who was would want. I felt he did get caught up in his success, which may have surprised him as well but he, as well as Ted (who I feel had other issues, which I also understand and whom I am not speaking of here. ), had a gift of charisma in presence and speech. Like winning the Lottery, it can bit you in the ass if not well handled.
Those that surrounded him did strike me as most of the problem and drama in WCG.
The Father to Son pass of religious empires never seems to go very well. Jerry Falwell Sr made the same mistake. Dave Pack won't have to worry about that. When he goes, it all goes.
In business, it is said "The First Generation founds it. The Second Generation maintains it. The Third Generation sells or destroys it. Always made sense to me and I had a number of examples both in Religion and Business to back that up as I am sure we all do. Oral Roberts did it as did Jimmy Swaggart and Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame.
I realize this would not be everyone's view as it is an emotional topic based on one's own personal experiences and opinions real or imagined.
But now that the fuse on this topic is lit.....
What say you and why?
As one said to me once, "I don't care WHAT you believe. But I want to know WHY you believe it"
29 comments:
One big problem with your source's explanation is that from the earliest days of HWA's ministry we find him noticing and discarding troublesome colleagues and underlings. He knew in Oregon that people would lie to him to gain their own advantage, and he certainly knew this in establishing his Pasadena college from the earliest years.
Where your source sees HWA as naïve, I would offer a different explanation: HWA was extraordinarily susceptible to flattery. If you flattered him you could hide (or at least get away with) your shenanigans much more effectively and for a longer time than those who tried to deal truthfully and straightforwardly with the man.
What say you?
In my experience, those who say "HWA was naïve about people" are most often those who themselves are or were personally loyal to a man they believe was misjudged by HWA.
In addition to the abundant evidence extant in his messages (written and delivered orally) of the extent of his enormous ego, most of the folks who personally knew the man (with whom I've had an opportunity to discuss this matter) have told me that the first Mrs. Armstrong was the ONLY person who could rein in that ego. This is consistent with what Dennis revealed in this post. Unfortunately, as with many egocentric folks, Mr. Armstrong was very susceptible to flattery. Moreover, anyone who has a modicum of intelligence and even marginally observant would have picked up on this fact right away (and, whether consciously aware of it or not, would have probably used that knowledge in navigating a relationship with the man and/or manipulating him into getting what he/she wanted).
Even so, I think that it would be inaccurate and unfair to ascribe all of Mr. Armstrong's errors to the influence and/or manipulation of other folks. While anyone who has put in any time within the Worldwide Church could come up with the names of a number of individuals who stoked and used Herbie's ego, the responsibility for the choices made ultimately rests with the man who made them. Moreover, I've noticed that self-made and egocentric men have a tendency over time to become jaded and cynical about the people who surround them and the system/product/business which they've created. Hence, although it's hard to get inside someone else's head and discern motivations and sincerity, what we do know suggests that it is highly likely that Mr. Armstrong did NOT personally subscribe to all of the official teachings of the Church he led. So, although he may not have been self-aware in the sense that most of us would employ the moniker, he was quite clearly a charlatan!
Those that surrounded him did strike me as most of the problem and drama in WCG.
This is the brilliance of the successful cult leader. There are STILL people loyal to Sun Myung Moon who blame his movement's problems on his high-drama family. There are dedicated Scientologists who remain loyal to L. Ron Hubbard and attribute Scientology's problems to David Miscavige, and before him to David Mayo and others who supposedly kept LRH in the dark. There are people in PCG today who believe Gerald Flurry is God's Man but is being kept in the dark by his children and other schemers.
A narcissistic cult leader preserves his own reputation by destroying people's confidence in the second generation of leadership, which guarantees that the movement will flounder or even die, but also ensures that the original leader/founder will emerge with the best reputation possible.
Some might say HWA took this approach in appointing the completely mediocre Joe Tkach as his successor. Some might wonder why Rod Meredith overlooked several more senior and better respected men with strong personalities, and instead appointed the milquetoast boot-licker Gerald Weston as his successor. Some will observe that UCG and COWA deliberately organized themselves to avoid this problem.
Dennis
Two really good questions. I think I know who you talked with and he gave you very credible answers. “Was Herbert sincere in his beliefs?” To a point! I believe he was convinced he was right because those around him built him up calling him an apostle. I believe H Hoeh first called him an apostle. However, Herbert never allowed any questions or anyone to question his beliefs, doctrines or ideas. He demanded absolute compliance to what he taught. So yes I believe he was sincere in his beliefs because he was convinces in his mind he was a special person called to be the end time apostle.
“what went wrong?” Two things. Fist none of what he prophesied or predicted came to pass. Especially fleeing to Petra in 1972 and Christ returning in 1975. The second thing was the internet. People began to communicate and compare notes. Several men began to examine Herbert’s writings. It was revealed that Herbert got many of his ideas and doctrine from other religions. Healing, divorce and remarriage, tithing (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) were shown to be have big holes in them.
Once Herbert died there was no one with the charisma to carry on. Did Tkach destroy the church? He speeded it up. However there has been from the early beginning of the Radio Church of God, men who wanted to be Herbert’s successor. Rod Meredith was afraid of Herbert. He wasn’t happy with Garner Ted but was afraid to buck him to Herbert. So Rod slipped into being 3rd in power. Rod slipped up by trying to show Herbert that Stan was using the church for his own gain. (Stan was smart). So when Herbert died the fuse was lit. Rod, Flurry, Hulme, and later Kubrick, Pact, Franks and others saw an opportunity to be the next Armstrong.
Jim-AZ
What I noticed in the early 1970s was the tendency at headquarters for the ministers to avoid proper daily prayer.
Now talking about this subject feels very touchy, because the carnal mind disdains the idea of prayer. I'm scared to talk to you about it.
The ministers started coming up with lines like "we don't want to be Pharisees" and "5 minutes of fervent prayer can be better than 20 minutes of weak prayer". All baloney of people who just were repelled by contact with God. GTA was one of them, so there's his problem. So the doctrines started going haywire.
The resident ministers at Hq had to share large mansions as homes. Apparently it was too noisy to get their prayer. Prayer booths at the college were available to students but not the ministers. Our local minister told this to us.
Mr HWA apparently did not check on his son's prayer habits. Ministers who don't care about this are fools.
"Was HWA sincere in his beliefs?"
Herbs training was in free market advertising. I recall reading in his autobiography how advertising can reduce costs to the consumer through increased sales volume. Yet despite these experiences, he embraced Marxism, which he projected into the bible. He embraced the accompanying totalitarianism which always acompanies this ideology.
The fact that he was building his auditorium vanity project just prior to 1975, proves that he knew that the date was speculation. His teachings were a blend of truth and error, with him being perfectly aware of the error part. As usual, his former ministers whitewash him since he is still the true source of the ACOGs teachings rather than the bible. The church falling apart on his death is the natural consequence of Herbs moral compromises, which his followers deny, since they are in love with the same sins.
So to them, Herb will always be His Royal Highness, Saint Armstrong The Magnificent.
I agree as well that HWA seemed won over with flattery. That may have come up in the conversation and not wanting to go "on and on" as I can do, didn't think of it. I made my point.
I also feel HWA did not know the details, problems with and results of how most ministers thought they had to explain the scriptures on healing, D and R and other topics. I never personally heard him address these topics as how it should be administered in real life situations. How they were interpreted was different it seemed from area to area and personality type to personality type. There was virtually no connection that I recall between either Herbert or Ted and the actual daily ministry in the field. That was left to others such as RCM who as he always told us, "There was God, Christ, HWA, GTA....himself and several other leading Evangelists..!" lol, not to be named of course after RCM got himself listed by himself. What a hoot.
Of course, he was ultimately responsible for what he taught , and much if not most of it, NT Church admonitions such as on D and R, prophecy, healing etc when most Christian churches had given up trying to know what to do in the modern era.
It's a huge topic. I posted this knowing the answer is neither simple nor clear. Ultimately I don't care either but I did get to talk at length with someone I trusted with sharing a very close relationship with all the players in all the things that I was oblivious to in the field ministry but make me wish I had not followed the personal path in my youth that I felt I was "called" to be and do. You couldn't have talked me out of it until I talked myself out of it. It was killing me. It had already killed a few of my ministerial friends and acquaintances. I stayed too long for reasons that had nothing to do with "a paycheck". It took some time to realize just what a mistake I had made and how to move on. I simply appreciated talking with this person who I felt gave me even more clarity on the conclusions I have drawn having had the whole experience.
Why do I believe what I believe? I don't want to die eternally, just yet. I'd like to know what it's like to live in a world without Satan and his minions.
Aaron Dean?
I can relate. When I first came into the church I thought everyone was on the same page. I trusted everyone in the congregation. I thought they all knew and understood the bible so much better than I did.
As the years passed I came to realize that I was way ahead of most of them in knowledge and understanding the day I was baptized than many of the 20+ year veterans.
It broke my heart, actually.
As I became privy to the many petty arguments and disagreements within the congregation I learned that there are few members, and many "hangers-on" in the church. In my later years I can see that some of the "hangers-on" had become ministers.
God knows who belongs to Him, and that's all that really matters.
Anonymous, April 29, 2021 at 6:44 PM, asked: "Why do I believe what I believe?"
And then answered with saying this: "I don't want to die eternally, just yet. I'd like to know what it's like to live in a world without Satan and his minions."
******
Keep believing those 2 things, b/c I believe they both will be fulfilled in your personal life, and...time will tell!
John
Alleged athiests spending too much of their own time, living in the past, discussing a man they never lived with or knew well enough, to know the answers to the questions.
Remind yourselves how long dead he's been.
HWA was a salesman. It is a well known fact that sales people are often the most gullible people to sales pitches, and will believe their own spiels as well.
HWA would see what he wanted to see, and ignore , or minimize what he didn't want to see. He created a universe bubble around himself where there would be as little accountability or examination as possible, that could reign in his thinking, actions, and will.
Sincere about what? Even a con man is sincere in what he does. He is trying sincerely to make some money. I think the question is: Did HWA believe the religious doctrine that he taught or was it a spiel? I believe he absolutely was sincere. This does not mean that he was right in his beliefs. This does not mean he possessed moral rectitude. It means simply that what he taught is what he personally believed and tended to act on.
Why do I believe that? It took me decades to arrive at this conclusion. I did not know HWA personally. All I knew was his public persona. And in his writing and in his speaking from the pulpit he always displayed remarkable self-confidence. He did not have the demeanor of a used car salesman. He considered himself the Defender of the Faith and energetically opposed any change from any source to the modified Millerite faith he originated. (But he did change in the case of Monday Pentecost.) This may be a thin substrate on which to base anything, but it is all that most of us have.
I do believe that his beliefs reflected his own ego-centrism and the practicalities of running church operations. Once again, all undertaken sincerely. And I believe his success attracted opportunists who were not sincere. But this did not diminish HWA's personal sincerity.
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What a topic! I worked for egotistic business man. He had two personalities he would use at his choice. He was a fist pounding demanding performance for those who worked for him. Look at him the wrong way and you were fired. However when he was with customers and the community he was generous and a humorous man. People outside of his business loved him. He and Herb had a lot similar characteristics. Herb also built an empire and like my boss the business man spent money in areas that made him look kind and generous. Any employee who crossed Herb's path the wrong way was fired. To the congregation at large Herb was a kind, smart lovable old man sent by God to declare the good news. (yea, I know it wasn't good news)
The world of business if full of them. Many churches fall into the same mindset depending how large they grow.
Bottom line is he was ego driven and not love driven. I could see in his world, he was sincere in what he taught and how he lead. His world view was horribly distorted.
Thanks for that Dennis. That is interesting, and your conclusions are similar to my conclusions on the subject.
Although I never actually spoke to HWA, (but I did nearly collided with his car, with him being driven in it – but that another story!), talking with others who had some contact with him gave me the same impression as you seem to have been given.
What I would be interested in knowing, without giving away any confidences, is the person you spoke to still involved in any of the organisations, or do they personally still hold to at least some of the doctrines of the church?
This is something I have found with many people, while they may not agree with all that HWA proclaimed, there are some key main doctrines that cannot be Biblically refuted, and many people that have been touched by the COG experience continue to hold a number of these beliefs, unless or until they are prepared to throw out the Bible itself.
Questeruk asked "What I would be interested in knowing, without giving away any confidences, is the person you spoke to still involved in any of the organizations, or do they personally still hold to at least some of the doctrines of the church?"
Yes, very much so.
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Anonymous said...
"Alleged atheists' spending too much of their own time, living in the past, discussing a man they never lived with or knew well enough, to know the answers to the questions.
Remind yourselves how long dead he's been."
Wait..you mean HWA? I thought for a moment there you were referring to Jesus. :)
This is a post for Nck and his CIA take on HWA.
The was more to HWA than meets the eye.
I'm Anon 5:51 and in reply to Dennis C Diehl remark, I say Jesus Christ is very much alive.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
I'm Anon 5:51 and in reply to Dennis C Diehl remark, I say Jesus Christ is very much alive.
April 30, 2021 at 1:00 PM
Well said Anon 5:51. I never thought it this way. At first, I thought Dennis was correct. Now I know better!
12:57
a) I've said this for decades. HWA could not have had followers if he hadn't been sincere in his belief. Moreover right or wrong everything testifies he believed what he preached.
b) I agree with some of the people responding here. Although not everything for example the D&R doctrine was exactly as the largest church on earth believes until this day.
c) My latest research into HWA and the CIA involves how drugs (heroine, opium) became such a prominent economic/political factor in Northern Thailand bordering Laos and how the WCG/NGO shell was used to whitewash and clean up the mess created by the American Empire (fighting communism). Anyway I'm not even beginning to start talking about the topic again after 20 years of arguing with the nimkompoops.
nck
Btw.
I do not buy into "inflated ego" theories for a minute.
As someone who journeyed through the official education system in the western world, I rather sense the INSECURITY of the "entrepreneur without the formal credentials" and I met a few.
Those intimidated by HWA were probably not grounded by either the lessons of their grannies or a University. Rader for certain was not intimidated, neither was Helge or any other person of the scientific persuasion.
HWA only accepted "titles" if decades of "proof" had been provided he was "fulfilling" some of that role. He only sought advice by the best of the best in their fields (like the gay hollywood dance instructor for the YA's). Or his brother in law for the founding of AC.
All his booklets were about "proving" something.... even the "10 points proving the existence of God". The proving thing doesn't sound very secure does it?
Yes he was naive to the extreme. He admitted hiring Rader as "someone knowledgeable in the way of interacting in the greater world". In his descriptions of Switzerland in sermons it sounds like the average knowledge of an American about the "sound of music" even if he had travelled there in 1947 and one of his wingmen had worked in the US intelligence hub in Berne during the entire WW2.
Nck
Once a mocker always a mocker. Don't give too much away now could identify thyself.
He also obviously sincerely believed there were a strata of rules applied differently to the hierarchical strata of those under him. Dennis, did this individual believe the incest and other sexual/moral issues that seem likely from the evidence one can find on this and other linked sites?
Thanks for the topic as I have never believed hwa was simply being deceitful for money and power. Though i can fully believe he would deceive and manipulate to continue the work he thought so important and needful of his place in it.
Why do you assume HWA gave his true opinion in his sermons nck ? He said whatever he wanted others to think. Poor naive HWA on descriptions of Switzerland. That's the illusion of mastering public lecturing.
The entire 1947 trip to London and Europe was always odd to me. His and Loma's descriptions didn't fit right in the correct context of history. They stayed at the Dorchester in April 1947 but described it as if it was a 2* hotel. Yet in July 1947 Prince Philip held his stag night at the Dorchester. It was the height of luxury not being bombed at all during WW2. It was filled in the 40s with 5th columnists, royalty, spies and film stars.
Also odd how they met some unknown tour guide on the street, who miraculously got them beyond public access to famous Government buildings.
Going to Paris and then desiring as first choice Switzerland for AC Europe branch all in 1947 !! In the early to mid 50s Switzerland was quite the hub of political power conferences with Chairman Mao and even Nero holding his Gov conference in Switz.
3:17
Where have you been the past 25 years. Let's marry. I have no intention, trainwrecking this topic Dennis started.
Me thinks an American used to the comforts of California was shocked by the "rationing" of 1947 Britain. Even ERII related she was rationed on food, clothes, everything so the Dorchester must not have been super fashionable.
Actually he looked for Italy, but he liked Geneva for its international cultural and educational unique atmosphere even better. The "a door was opened" in London.
Do you remember the interview with the Beast (Otto v Habsburg). Hus aides needed to ask good questions and keep the conversation going beyond his usual pushing of prophecy. HWA was naive and extremely focussed on "his worldview". The perfect special operation agent. Never use people that need orders. Use those that live and believe in allignment with foreign policy objectives. As the US ambassador to Syria said to HWA. Sir, you are involved in things we cannot be involved in and the USA benefits greatly from it.
Nck
For over 40 years Herb kept saying that "in the name of the living God, I tell you that we only have 3 to 5 short years left." Be because if this, a percentage of his members were throw under the bus by delaying an education, getting medical attention, trying to find a mate, and in some cases, losing the will to live. He was a pathological liar who believed that the end justifies the means. Who ever heard him explaining or magnifying the ten commandments?
And to his shame, Nck keeps whitewashing him.
Q. Was HWA sincere re his beliefs?
A. Like he always said about other Xians he was critical of proved essentially true of himself (and by extension his followers even to this day) ie He may have been sincere, but he was sincerely deceived!
Q. What went wrong?
A. He started with a series of false premises eg He was the fulfilment of end times prophecy, his church was the only true church, his teachings were the restoration of true apostolic teachings, etc so it’s no surprise everything he raised up has and still is and ultimately will be turned to dust and blown away in the wind like Gamaliel said, “For if this plan or this work is of human origin, it will fail but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them.”
4:52
Member who did what you said were plain dumb and stupid.
There is a myriad of proof that nothing of what you said was required.
Plain dumb stupid utter fools.
Just one example.
In ALL the '70's Worldwide News issues and its predecessors youngsters with an education and highschool diploma and onward were HIGHLIGHTED.
So you are a freaking liar and whitewasher of fools.
I am not buying into your nonsense. I was there for decades!
nck
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