Dennis, please come back!
A few days ago, I read the following statement by Mr. Dennis Diehl with some dismay: “I realize I am pretty much done with posting.” Now, while I realize that that statement is not definitive (and that he has indicated this sentiment on previous occasions), I wanted to publicly state that the quality of this forum would decline without the voice of Dennis. Yes, I have arrived at very different conclusions from him about God, the Bible, and the value of Christianity; but I believe that he brings a unique perspective to these discussions that would be sorely missed here.
We all need to occasionally hear from people who do not share our views. In fact, I would say that it is essential to anyone who would even pretend to have an open mind or to be intellectually curious. Unfortunately, most of us tend to live in self-reinforcing bubbles these days. We surround ourselves with people who share our opinions and sustain our prejudices. This is the path to stagnation and ignorance. Moreover, even when a different perspective does not persuade us to change our opinion on some subject, it almost always makes us better informed and clearer about why we believe what we believe.
Dennis’ perspective is unique in several ways. He is one of the few former ministers of the old Worldwide Church to publicly comment here. As anyone who regularly participates here also knows, Dennis is a representative of the agnostic/atheist perspective. As such, Dennis tends to present an analytical and scientific approach to most topics (and we should all be able to see value in that). It is certainly helpful for people who are emerging from the fog of Armstrongism, and who are often in the process of reevaluating their belief system, to be exposed to the kinds of questions and observations which Dennis contributes here. It is naïve to think that many of these folks are not questioning just about everything – and there is value in validating their right to have questions!
Although I am a theist and a Christian, I appreciate Dennis’ sincere desire to help people to emerge from the trainwreck of Armstrongism. His journey led him to a different set of conclusions from my own, but it has endowed him with the same compassion and need to help others that motivates most of the rest of us here. Hence, even when we challenge his conclusions (or take him to task on occasion for appearing to be condescending), we should all strive to appreciate his journey, perspective, and desire to help others. Social media sometimes has the unintended consequence of dehumanizing our responses to each other, and occasionally makes us say things that we would never dream of saying to each other when face to face. So, while I am confident that I will feel compelled to challenge Mr. Diehl on some occasion in the future (if he chooses to return to this forum), I would like to express my sincere desire that he decides to do just that!
Lonnie Hendrix/Miller Jones
41 comments:
No worries, Lonnie! Dennis has been doing this for years now, so many times I can't even count them. He can't stay away for long, and will be back. When he takes these breathers, it usually means he's processing some stuff, and when that's been done, fantasma! He magically reappears.
I most certainly hope Dennis does not stop contributing to this blog.
While I do not agree with him on the majority of the matters he comments on and posts, his is a voice that must be heard also, and indeed challenged when necessary.
That is one of the reasons for this blog, to expose and challenge where needed and Armstrongism surely needs to be held accountable. We all do. That he is perhaps the only ex wwcog minister to post and comment here shows a little of the character of the man. Willing to be held accountable, not hiding namelessly behind a keyboard, but also able to give a little insight into what was the ‘ministry’ back in ‘the day’. Yes he has his strongly held opinions, me too, and I will not hesitate to offer mine when I disagree.
Let’s all be civil and gracious in spite of our differing viewpoints.
I hope Dennis does return to this forum, he definitely brings a refreshing perspective here.
I've appreciated Dennis over the years sharing his experiences at AC and his experiences as a minister.
Every belief is eventually challenged, so I didn't mind him doing so, especially since he always did it in a diplomatic manner.
Not with standing, there's the negative of excess repetition, implying a desire to lord it over the readers faith.
I don't believe that he'll stay away. Eventually the desire to play minister will prove overwhelming.
Without Dennis this blog is doomed. Let's face it Dennis was the only honest blogger on here. The rest lay behind masks, using deception as a tool to justify being liars.
Dennis needs to stay away for his own personal well-being. By coming here he is just picking the scab off a wound. I hope he can just get on with his life and forget about this place.
He's just taking a break. He does it every so often.
Banned without Dennis is surely the poorer for us all. Dennis, please come back to Banned where you belong.
Dennis Diehl and Byker Bob - our alliterate contributors!
Miller:
I second the motion. When the Armstrongist bubble burst, people flew off in many different directions. Dennis is the articulate voice of one of those directions. The processing of the Armstrongist experience cannot happen without that voice. Statements the atheist brother has made have many times knocked me into research mode. That kind of midrash can't be bad.
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I have often thought about not posting here anymore.
However, my experience in the COG , for both my wife and myself, was so HORRIFIC and personally injurious that I find the forum here a weird form of therapy. Im able to post on the forum for a catharsis, and then the PTSD of all of this nonsense , leaves me for the rest of the day, so that I can move on to more productive and interesting things.
I have a strong sense of justice, and I feel that the past abuse of the WCGs and its successors, have never been fully adjudicated , repented of , or changed. I also realize that the "system" continues to ensnarl people to this very day, and I care for their suffering as well.
Do not minimize the amount of suffering my family has had under the Hierarchical nonsense of the past decades. It is tragic, profound, and beyond many barriers of decency. Overall disillusionment over "all of this COG universe" is profound. There are indeed some things in life that the comment "Get Over It" does not apply. Certainly , getting over things to pursue a life path, success and happiness has occurred for my family, but the pain of several experiences, and the overriding dysfunctional culture and lifestyle of the COGs still haunts at times.
For those of you who would want to dismiss me as an atheist, laodicean, apostate, or non believer , you would be wrong. I continue to be a Sabbatarian, non pork eating, faithful, trying to follow the lead of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. However, the human intermediaries who meddle with the faith, and insert themselves into the relationship, are nothing more than hirelings, and interlopers, except in only the rarest of cases. Of my brethren , who are not confined to any one group, I do find the most kindred belief system with the COG 7th Day.
Thank you dear reader, for allowing my daily catharsis!
Tonto,
I think that all of us who have commented/posted here on a regular basis over an extended period of time grow weary on occasion and have contemplated abandoning the forum. What is new to others is very often old hat to most of us, and it can seem repetitive and tedious at times. Indeed, I think we have lost some incredible contributors to this phenomenon through the years (Byker Bob immediately comes to mind).
Nevertheless, I think you are right about what brings us back here over and over again. It isn't just helping others emerge from the darkness or compiling an archive for those who might be tempted by Armstrongism in the future - It's about the catharsis that this provides for us. When we come together here with our shared experiences in this culture, we can alleviate some of the pain, suffering, damage and depression which we have experienced as a consequence of our association with it. There is comfort in reminiscing, sharing insights and commiserating with others. Thanks for reminding us of these things!
Thanks for the helpful comment Tonto. Cathart on!
I hope DD continues to contribute. I did not follow the path he did after leaving the cogs, and while i disagree with his evolutionary conclusions, I have gained much from his experiences and perspective.
I do not know what is best for Dennis and I do hope the best for him.
However, regardless of what is best for Dennis, Dennis will do whatever he wants to do.
Experience indicates he will choose to continue posting.
I have seen people respond positively to Dennis and express that he has helped them.
Personally, I cannot understand that response at all.
Studies indicate that 25% of the people you meet will not like you, no matter what you do - just an instant dislike naturally occurs.
Perhaps that's just my response to Dennis - but, when I was in the WCG, I did like him, so maybe not.
I also want to say that I enjoy my atheist friends, who all exude a live and live attitude that I do not sense from Dennis.
I think everyone should be allowed to express their views and I strongly disapprove of censoring anyone.
However, I am bothered by many of the items and ways Dennis shares.
What bothers me is Dennis is often dishonest, re-writes history, and is hypocritical - in my opinion.
I realize that my opinion is in the minority - and I am aware that I am often very wrong.
I would like to think that if other ex-WCG ministers posted here - ones that were generally believed by the masses to have those same dishonest qualities - I would be glad that they were communicating in this forum - and I would enjoy challenging them.
Dennis is different; for me, he's more like a stealth minister - his dishonesty, bullying, and hypocrisy is very rarely seen by others.
When someone dares call him on the bad minister behavior, others will rush to his defense.
That defending him also reminds me of the minister and goons scenario from COG days.
Because I have always perceived Dennis to be acting just like an old-time WCG minister while conning the majority - I resent him getting away with the minister hijinks, I feel that his dishonesty, hypocrisy, and bullying is harmful to the recovery of those that have been abused by the ministry, and that his need to "help" people leads some further astray - now, just as he did in the old COG days.
As much as I believe in a diversity of voices being a strength and and asset to pursue - I cannot say that I agree that Dennis' diverse voice adds anything positive to this site.
I hope I will grow beyond my present thoughts on Dennis.
I hope Dennis finds much peace and happiness in whatever he does, including his very likely, soon-coming return to Banned.
Anonymous 5:29
The atheist brother should have a place at the table. Atheism is one of the valid outcomes of cultism. It should be presented and not censored. Nobody should pretend that the viewpoint does not exist. It is up to those so inclined to make a response and meet the challenge. And dialog is a good thing to have. It is a thought stimulant.
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Neo 9:04,
Amen!
I have been absent from writing and commenting for quite some time but I still check in regularly because like many of us, even if we have left COG's, we still have friends and family inside. I no longer write or comment because I have fully deconverted and am an atheist and some days, an antitheist. Dennis has played a positive role in my journey and I am very thankful for him as well as Gary for their friendship, compassion and empathy for everyone who has been victimized by the Armstrong cults. Someone mentioned this site is therapy and it absolutely is for so many people. Dennis helped revive the free thinking teenager I was before I got sucked into Armstrongism. Thank you sir.
Much of what transpires in our little group here has been treated very effectively in Sartre's play "No Exit". Upon arrival in Hell, the three protagonists discover that there is no torturing devil or punishing God. Only themselves, three individuals totally at loggerheads with one another, who must now spend all of eternity together. The conclusion is the oft quoted "Hell is other people!"
If Sartre's play is a metaphor for Banned, there is no escape from Banned for Dennis. The powers of the universe will compel him to return!
"No worries, Lonnie! Dennis has been doing this for years now, so many times I can't even count them. He can't stay away for long, and will be back."
Yawn.
Does anyone have an actual count?
LOL!!!
Hey Neo - this is 5:29 - responding to your post at 9:04.
In my post, I did not criticize Dennis for being an atheist or call for anyone to be censored.
I have more atheist friends than Christians, although I am a Christian.
I explicitly stated I am against censorship.
And since I am for freedom, I do not have to like Dennis.
Your post, directed to me, did not mention the reasons I stated for not liking Dennis - but instead, you focused on atheism, which insinuated that atheism was my rationale for disliking Dennis.
Your post is a typical example of the goons protecting the minister, regardless of facts.
Then, Miller/Lonnie gave your gaslighting an amen - also without addressing my stated rationale.
Yes, this blog can sometimes be a replay of COG experiences.
I think we're up to about five, Ronco. They say walk a mile in the other guy's moccasins, though, and I don't believe any of us former lay people can possibly fathom what it was like to be a WCG minister. Lonnie and most of the commenters set the right tone, now let's wait and see what happens.
Anonymous 5:29 and 3:35,
First, I completely understand the sensitivities and traumas associated with our former affiliation. Hence, I realize that there are a number of compelling reasons/justifications for remaining anonymous (I originally employed a pen name myself, Miller Jones, because of family and friends still in one of the splinters). Even so, I do wish that everyone who feels that way would employ some kind of moniker or avatar to differentiate themselves in these kinds of conversations (it would be so much easier to follow these threads and engage in an actual conversation).
I get what you are saying about your personal distaste for Dennis and his commentary, but I think that you are still missing the point that Neo was making in his comment. Is it even remotely possible that part of your animus toward him is centered on the conclusions which he has reached about God and religion? Is it possible that his former identity as a Worldwide minister has contributed to your animus? In other words, is it possible that you are reacting to the ministerial stereotype of authoritarianism and condescension that so many of us remember from our time in that organization? I don't think that anyone is trying to gaslight anyone - just suggesting possible motivations for your feelings of dislike. Maybe the answer does lie in a completely different direction - no problem! Whatever its source, the point is that we should all be able to offer our viewpoints here without being characterized as dishonest and insincere, and trying to understand the barriers that we erect to hearing each other is an important part of that exercise.
Anonymous 3:35 wrote, "What bothers me is Dennis is often dishonest, re-writes history, and is hypocritical - in my opinion."
People can read your response and interpret as they will. If they take it incorrectly, then you can clarify. So, there is a process and I have no bashfulness about interposing my view in this process.
You mentioned atheism and then made the statement above. I took that to be a characterization of Dennis' atheism. That you are ok with some brands of atheism but not Dennis' brand. Apparently, my impression was incorrect. In any case, this blog is a marketplace of ideas. It's for grown-ups. The watchword is Caveat Emptor. It is moderated and certain kinds of nonsense are screened out. But licit viewpoint passes through. Midrash accommodates Dennis and however he wants to express his ideas.
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I can remember at least a few. Once when he lost a poll, once when someone made a comment about his massage business, and one for reasons I dont fully recall now... I think it was similar to the "happy endings" snark.
Anon 3:35 and 5:29 offer better and more honest insights than DD. DD's condescension, dishonesty, hypocrisy, and bullying is harmful to many. Even his numerous attempts to dramatize his frequent departures from Banned are indicative of his dishonesty and insincerity. Were DD honest and stuck with his decisions to stop posting, he would have stopped posting here years ago and we would not be having this discussion. Nor would we be putting up with his pseudo-scientific drivel or having to endure more photos of his possibly illegally obtained indian artifacts. (It is a major violation of federal law to collect artifacts, and i informed him of this years ago). He still would be better composting in the commune with his sweetheart as he posited he would do on one of his retirement threats.
I understand Dennis perfectly. We're of the same mind and have become deep personal friends. His Ezine articles were a great help to me in my journey into total and unapologetic atheism. You may have noticed that I seldom comment here anymore. I find it frustrating and unproductive as I do the Ambassador Forum, which I read but seldom comment on now. It accomplishes nothing for the most part. Beliefs that are set in stone aren't going to change no matter what facts are presented. So, I just keep blasting away on Facebook and comment once in a while here and on the Forum, but avoid for the most part theological sparring.
A human trait is to try to pull others down in order to alleviate one's own sense of failure. Dennis is a failed Christian, so he comes to Banned to rob others in their belief in God and the bible.
It's called the crabs in a bucket mentality, ie, "if I can't have it, neither can you."
My eisegesis of Rev 3:10 NASB: Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.
Quite a test isn't it? I call it the Herbert W. Armstrong test. I'm still furious at him. But not at night. I don't let the sun go down on my wrath.
3:38 wrote:
" Dennis is a failed Christian, so he comes to Banned to rob others in their belief in God and the bible. "
Your faith must be really shallow and lacking in conviction if you can allow Dennis or anyone else to take that way from you.
3.50 PM
So if someone's house is robbed, you blame the victim by accusing them of not having better security. So it's the victims fault and they had it coming.
Lonnie: this is the one who dislikes the actions of Dennis due to what I perceive as being dishonesty, hypocrisy, and harm to those in recovery.
You asked: "Is it even remotely possible that part of your animus toward him is centered on the conclusions which he has reached about God and religion?:
Let me ask you, is it remotely possible that your difficulties with Bill Watson are based on the fact he's a bacon hater?
Is there a bit of condescension in that question?
First, a few thoughts about atheists: I like when my atheist friends refer to me as God-haunted - because, that's entirely correct.
I often suffer from a lack of faith and contemplate how silly Christianity is - until aspects of the haunting occur.
So, I can certainly see how people being themselves gravitate toward agnosticism and then atheism.
If you are an atheist, I don't believe you can be anything but an atheist - unless God (not me) calls.
I often wonder why I am drawn more to diverse people from all walks of life and belief systems - I have taken some flack for it.
I encourage my friends to be their authentic selves, which is a huge part of friendship.
I feel authenticity and a live and let live spirit in my friends - which I do not sense in Dennis (something I mentioned in my first post on this thread).
I think one reason for feeling that Dennis is not as easy going as my friends is that I believe he bullies others when they don't agree with him and when don't think he's great.
I remember a few years ago when Dennis bullied me into giving him a phone call - in which he thought he'd straighten me out.
I will note Dennis has toned down his demands for a phone call when someone has a significant disagreement with him.
I think my answer to your next question will be long, so I had better do that in a separate entry.
onnie: What I perceive to be a lack of authenticity is connected with my answer to your other question:
"Is it possible that his former identity as a Worldwide minister has contributed to your animus?"
Yes!
I've often said that you can take Dennis out of the WCG ministry but you cant take the WCG ministry out of Dennis.
I'll start with my premise that Dennis has hypocritical tendencies, like those typically found in COG ministers.
Recently, Dennis has bragged how he took his kids swimming on Friday nights and gave them birthdays.
Really, I'm glad his kids had those advantages - two fewer kids in the COGs with less suffering is a good thing.
However, Dennis is oblivious to the fact that he was the local authority figure of a system that harshly squashed the ability for other children to enjoy the same (and many other) normal childhood activities.
The children of the parents paying Dennis' salary suffered because Dennis did not speak up for what he knew would be right and good for them.
I can easily forgive him for making bad choices, long ago - and I am not holding grudges.
However, I loose respect for someone who cannot see the hypocrisy in his current bragging.
I also have concern for how Dennis' insensitivity hurts those who are in recovery.
I bet you know people who have PSD from what they were forced to do as children and those who suffer from memories of what they did to their kids.
An example of what I consider re-writing history is Dennis' recent statements that he did not preach about the Place of Safety or prophecy.
He might just as well deny he was ever a WCG minister.
My personal recollection is that Dennis was different than all other ministers but, as far as teaching the teachings of the church, Dennis was one hundred percent WCG minister.
The people would have outed him if he was not.
Dennis has repeated that Spanky Meredith told him that there was no limits for him - the chief overload of the ministry would not say that to Dennis if Dennis was preaching the party line - and we know Spanky thoroughly checked up on his underlings.
I can understand the need to sooth one's self with thoughts of "I only did what I believed was right" or whatever you need to do to get through past mistakes; but, I believe he went way too far with the whitewash on these recent claims.
I'm guessing that I probably would not care so much about what I perceive to be Dennis' bullying behavior - if he was not in the current role of a minister presiding over a following of loyal minions.
I don't believe the fawning minions have the inclination to evaluate most of Dennis' comments and tactics, when the heat is not directed at them, for being disloyal.
Dennis does enjoy a power advantage with the ability to post an article or a comment without moderation from the blog owner.
Regardless, his bullying discourages the exchange of ideas and would embarrass my atheist friends.
If Dennis was not a former/current minister, his hypocrisy, dishonesty, and bullying would have far less of an impact on those in recovery.
The problem with being a recognized regular writer for any of the sites is that while you make a lot of friends, you also make some enemies. After a while, your name becomes a distraction, because rather than considering and discussing the ideas which you just posted, those who hold animosity due to past exchanges will dismiss and attack just because you posted it. If an anonymous poster posted the same thing, it would be praised.
Anyone who has done any writing at all realizes that there are certain "tells" amongst the themes, words, spelling, grammer, length of sentences, complexity of thought, and general spirit or tone of all writers. These tells won't reveal a poster's name, but a perceptive reader who has made note of them realizes that post 1, 15, and 21 have all been made by one anonymous poster, and 7, 13, and 23 by another anonymous poster. It's similar to hearing a conversation, distinguishing individual voices, and knowing which voice is saying what, even though you don't know the speakers' names. Sometimes, posters will deliberately imitate another's style because they sense that that is a strong person, and if they act in that person's valence, then they come off as being stronger than they really are. However, they are not 100% effective, and someone with skills can still distinguish between the original and the imitator.
I've taken the time to outline this because most readers do not have such perceptive skills. They can't tell which anonymous is saying what, and it irritates them. Dennis could post as anonymous, and if he avoided using all of his signature materials, most people wouldn't be able to tell that it was Dennis doing the writing, and the attacks would diminish greatly. The "once a ministurd always a ministurd" mantra would disappear from all of the critical responses, and much of the dimestore psychoanalysis provided by his detractors would be gone. But, if he did that, so much would be lost! There is a tab to be picked up any time people let it all hang out there. Dennis has shown willingness to pick up that tab, to take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. That's why I know he'll be back. He's probably just recharging his batteries!
BB
Anonymous 2/24 @ 6:49 and 7:02,
Thanks for explaining your perspective on Dennis - I think we all better understand from whence you are coming at this. Maybe we shouldn't worry so much about what motivates the other guy? After all, as we do not have the ability to see what's going on in the other guy's heart, there is a high probability that we will guess wrong. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is a major part of our problem in maintaining civil discourse on controversial topics. We all tend to ascribe nefarious motives to the guy who disagrees with our view.
At any rate, I always try to focus on the message of the individual I disagree with, not his/her personality. I too have challenged Dennis' messaging in the past, and I probably will again in the future if he decides to return to this forum.
As for what happened to us in connection with our former association, I believe that there is a sense in which we were all both victims, enablers, and perpetrators. There is no question that many of us suffered a great deal of abuse and suffering as a consequence of our former association, but it is also true that our participation in that system enabled our abusers and/or made us active participants in the abuse of others. After all, I did buy into a racist and authoritarian ideology once upon a time. That is something I have had to own and decide to forgive myself for participating in that mindset. Anyway, just some additional random thoughts prompted by your remarks. Thanks.
BB: I agreed with some of what you wrote.
I also think the converse of some of your thoughts are true.
For example, you wrote: "After a while, your name becomes a distraction, because rather than considering and discussing the ideas which you just posted, those who hold animosity due to past exchanges will dismiss and attack just because you posted it."
Many people will turn off their critical thinking skills when reading something from a named someone they like.
Which I believe happens when Dennis posts outrageous things - his followers don't see the problems.
I acknowledge that many people have stated that Dennis has helped them.
However, his standing as a former/current minister naturally puts him in the position to inflect more harm, with his insensitivities, on those who've been abused by the COGs.
Dennis will soon return to posting on Banned because his minster ego will need to be fed.
When he does return, I hope he has grown from others sharing their thoughts.
However, I don't see that to be likely to occur within his minister personality.
Yet I'm ever-hopeful for good to happen within individuals and society at large.
I believe that collectively, we have progressed to be a much more broad-minded society in which people have unprecedented freedom to be whomever they authentically are, despite cruel examples to the contrary.
Interesting remark RSK.
If only Tonto. If only.
So the curtain opens and SSS pops out. Well admitting you are a athiest on here makes alot of sense. Alot of sense to anyone who has ever had to deal with you in real life.
The sad question is how many more are just like you. But it doesn't matter anymore. Time was always against you all. No matter how few or many you really are.
BB
If you drive a car long enough, you learn to read the cars around you. The same applies to people. Most posters here are elderly, and have a wealth of experience in dealing with people. That readers would not be able to pick out Dennis or to read him if he posted anonymously is ridiculous. I've noticed this trait that many have of thinking that they are mentally invisible. It's childish because there's multitudes of people at every maturity/immaturity level in society.
"Well admitting you are a (sic) athiest (sic) on here makes alot (sic) of sense. Alot (sic) of sense to anyone who has ever had to deal with you in real life."
1). To whom are you directing this? This is a diverse group and some are indeed atheist/agnostic, but some of us are Christian.
2). You really ought to consult your old textbook "How to Rede and Spell Gud" before posting comments here. If you feel a calling to defend your faith, don't you want to represent properly so that your comment will be taken seriously?
Anyone entertaining the possibility that Dennis might have been raptured just days before Put'n put his nuclear arsenal on standby and serve as Satans tool.
Left Behind nck
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