Trying to get out from under the weight of history
Lonnie Hendrix
As part of the comment thread for a post that appeared here, Trooisto asked CGI’s Jeff Reed: “How does your church reconcile the failed prophecies, proclaimed to be uttered under the authority of God, by your church’s founding fathers, HWA and GTA? How does all the written and recorded evidence of false prophecies of your leaders impact the legitimacy of your church and your claim to have a ‘correct set of beliefs’?” Trooisto went on to note: “CGI also copied the extra-biblical doctrines of British Israelism from HWA and much of the same failed prophesies of impending, in the next few years, catastrophes to fall upon ‘Israelitish nations’. You can claim to have a historical foundation in Jesus, but Jesus never identified certain European nations as being lost tribes of Israel and Jesus never mentioned the United States. So, an honest admission should be given that at least part of your church’s theology came from HWA, as also preached by GTA prior to the inception of CGI and for the first twenty years of CGI’s history. Anything short of that acknowledgment is a dishonest whitewash of CGI history.”
For me, these observations underscored a problem that ALL of the Armstrong Churches of God must confront: “How does one handle all of that sordid history regarding their origins?” And, to be clear, I’m not talking about the Seventh Day Baptists, the founding of the Adventist Movement, or the history of the two Churches of God, Seventh Day. No, I’m talking about the history that begins with Herbert Armstrong. How does one deal with: The events surrounding Armstrong’s separation from the COG, 7th Day? Armstrong’s plagiarism and borrowing from other traditions/organizations? The problems with Armstrong’s character? The large volume of writings that were generated over fifty years (including failed predictions and changes in doctrine)? The teachings of Herbert Armstrong which have been thoroughly discredited and/or effectively challenged (e.g. Anglo-Israelism, Headline Theology, the warning message for Israel, tithing, the nature of the message about the Kingdom of God, Church government, etc.)? The behavior of Garner Ted Armstrong, and the impact of his (and others’) efforts to systematize Herbert’s teachings? What happened with the Tkach regime? The numerous splits/schisms which have happened over the years before and after Herbert Armstrong’s death? These are all part of that great weight of history that confronts ALL of the Armstrong Churches of God!
Hence, the question: How does one deal with all of this sordid history? Well, so far, the ACOG’s have dealt with their history in the same way(s) that most people, organizations, and nations have dealt with unpleasant episodes in their history. In brief, humans have a tendency to deal with past embarrassments by: 1) Ignoring them/pretending they didn’t happen, 2) Trying to change/modify the narrative and put a more positive spin on what happened, 3) Confronting the unpleasantness, and trying to deal with it. Moreover, if any attempt is made to confront the past, people usually try to emphasize the changes they’ve instituted and/or the measures which they have taken to address past injustices. Needless to say, remedy number three requires the most soul-searching and work and has, consequently, been the least popular way of dealing with all of the unpleasantness in our collective past. And, as we look at the Armstrong Churches of God, we see that most of them have simply ignored that past or attempted to change the narrative – neither of which has worked very well for them in the age of the internet.
80 comments:
Acts 5:36-39. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it…
You can inject a Thiel, Pack, Flurry or whoever in place of Theudus or Judas of Galilee. They draw men away from one group to follow them. Come to think about it, Worldwide came to nothing.
Yea these and other so called leaders weren’t considering the age of the internet where people could research and counter their self-righteous indignation.
... neither of which has worked very well for them in the age of the internet.
The Internet is killing off ALL religion. There are other reasons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTvR6vokw8
You totally hit on the chief growth-inhibitor for the Armstrong movement, Lonnie. I predict that some form of what we call Armstrongism today will actually experience a rebirth perhaps a hundred years from now, as the true details and the controversies pass to antiquity, and only the general philosophy is somewhat preserved. It's difficult to see past the global implications of climate change over the coming decades, or to know what effects Artificial Intelligence will have on many currently held beliefs, but we have certainly witnessed an increase in the collective intelligence of humanity just over the decades since the 1950s, which is why Armstrongism's time and date stamp has expired. This increase will continue, unless we have nuclear war, and In 50-100 years, science and history will have definitively corrected many of the glaring inaccuracies in some of the core teachings all by themselves.
I also believe that some of the current teachers of Armstrongism are perceptive enough to realize that at some point the movement in general must acknowledge the points which you raised. Ian Boyne had done this on a local level in Jamaica, and was experiencing appreciable growth. In the larger groups, it is not yet time for that to be possible. However, the pervasive belief that Herbert W. Armstrong was God's Apostle will eventually fade with time, enabling leaders to gradually make the needed changes without losing the core followers who were present while HWA was alive. Those folks will all have passed away by that point in time.
I studied a lot over the years, mostly for myself, but also imagining that some day, my parents might ask the right questions, and that I could share the information which could finally free them. I eventually realized that at their advanced ages, it would actually be cruel to do so, and therefore, "chickened" out.. They were no longer hurting anyone (child-rearing), and such a traumatic shake-up in their belief system would have caused intolerable pain at their advanced age. These were people who had accepted the New Covenant changes, but somehow had returned to the original beliefs several years later. I am sure there are many people like them throughout the ACOGs. Sad when you think about it because most of them anticipated that the events from HWA's "hook" would confirm the veracity of their lifetime of sacrifice, but this remained unrequited at the time of their passing. That, in and of itself, must have been traumatic.
Getting out from under the way of pherbvert harmstwrong: start a new church. Three feasts annually. The great day is the 7th day of the third feast, not the 8th day. No feast of trumpets, is a sabbath. No feast of an atonement fast, duh...a feast is not a fast. These annual sabbaths are not feasts: "trumpets", atonement, 8th day but all feasts and sabbaths are God's fixed times. God's calendar has been fixed from creation. The sequence of jubilee years was not changed (Hoeh says they were; are your works built on Hoeh?) to put Nisan 14 on Wed in 31 AD. Nisan 14 was Monday in 31 AD. The first feast of the year, the year beginning at the feast of tabernacles which is at the end of the year, begins the 14th, not the 15th, and is 7 days: Nisan 14-20. There is no record of a tithing law before Moses. Tithing laws came and went with the Levitical Priesthood. The Bible does not mention a third tithe. Levites were 2% of the population. Tithing is not mandatory today. You purpose in your heart what to give. The 3 days and nights were part or whole. There are unclean meats which include tuna and halibut. There are only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. Etc Etc Etc. Armstrongism is riddled with error.
CGI , LEFT HWA and the like in 1978. They put GTA out of their church in 1995.
I do not thing there is any love lost in CGI for either of them, and have a sense of embarrassment for both of them ever being part
of their spiritual journey.
Amazing comment 12:38
It can be devastating when their guy (leader) lives a full life but passes not being that end time witness of God. They should not have thought so highly of oneself (Roman’s 12:3) but they can’t do that. And being the elders they are stuck in their old ways not fully accepting the grace of God through the new covenant As time goes on, more is revealed.
The Donald made some promises. There are webpages full of the promises he did not deliver on. Some examples:
1. He promised to kill Obamacare and replace it with a much better and much cheaper National health insurance plan. Instead, he created a plan that consisted mostly of junk health insurance plans and could not get it through Congress.
2. He promised to eliminate the deficit. But, instead, during his administration it increased by 60 per cent.
3. He promised to build a wall between the USA and Mexico and make the Mexicans pay for it. People in his base cheered deliriously. You know what happened.
I saw an elderly woman, I think in Florida, interviewed on the street for a TV news program. She was a Trump supporter and the interviewer asked her why. She said firmly, “Because he delivered on the promises he made.” That is how she and many other Trump supporters deal with history. And these people may well destroy the United States. They are ahistorical. They have no ability to either recognize historical fact or learn from it. Watch the responses that this comment will generate here on the blog. This is the operation of the cult mind. This is the same mind that operates in Splinterland. Orwell gave us the principle in 1984 – the past is what the person in charge wants it to be.
Scout
In this day and age, given the enormous amount of evidence of the failings of Armstrongism in every possible category, the system as it has been known for 90 years now, will be done and dusted within a decade as the last hard core folks die off. We are watching Armstrongism 2.0 vaporize before our eyes in real time, thank God.
Armstrongism 3.0?? I highly, highly doubt anyone 20 years from now would even bother. The doctrines have been so thoroughly debunked already and given more time, additional details of the horrendous wrongs done to the members should dissuade any wanna be from attempting a third strike. I say thank you Jesus for destroying your enemies and never allowing them to rise again.
I have been fellowshipping with CG7 (Denver Conference) for years. I love these people.
But their history has some real problems.
CG7 and SDA each came into existence around the same time (1860s). Their backgrounds were the failed prophecies of William Miller.
Many in CG7 in the 1870s were spooked by Napoleon III. You know, the Beast of Revelation and all that.
Andrew Dugger (contemporary of HWA) was big into church eras.
Some CG7 people still push headline theology. I hear ministers promote this from time-to-time.
And don’t get me started on authoritarian rule. We have our share of petty dictators.
Wes White
Hey Tonto, as far as CGI and being embarrassed over the Armstrongs, who are the 'men' they now base their beliefs/church on now? "Spiritual journey"?
Past history? I don't think CGI has anything to worry about! Outside of this blog I don't think anyone will pay much attention.
The past hasn't hurt the Catholic church. Failed prophecies haven't hurt the 7th day Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses's numbers. Jimmy Swaggart and his organization is still thriving.
The success of this world system hinges on people not remembering past embarrassments. The powers that be depend on you having a short memory and that you will forget their previous roles and failures. Like you say, they deal with their sordid history by ignoring it, pretend it didn't happen, or they modify the narrative. And it works!
Look at our politicians. During the 2016 Democratic debate, Kamala Harris destroyed Joe Biden for his dismal record on "race". Joe just pretended she was wrong and it never happened, and he was elected president anyway. And then, just a few years ago, Pfizer was convicted and fined for corruption, deception and lying. No honest admissions followed and no apparent impact to the legitimacy of the corporation. That said, people still lined up to take their vaccine that didn't work and put complete trust in them as the gatekeepers of true science! That's typically how things work.
Knowing the past? Not a problem. CGI will be just fine!
Anonymous Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 12:38:00 PM PDT,
I read your comment about your parents with emotion. We have touched on this connection we share before. I thought of my own father, and how I wished for an acknowledgement and understanding which never came. Unfortunately, my father passed his religion onto my brother, nephew, and his family before he passed. I know that my challenges to his faith hurt him, but I felt compelled to try to help others who had been hurt as I was. Even so, I continue to hope that someday we will come together again in peace and happiness with everything that happened as though it were but a dim memory of a nightmare while we were sleeping.
Good ‘un, BP482 or whatever!
BP8,
There are a lot of great quotations about the perils of forgetting or ignoring the past - I'm sure you're aware of them. If CGI's past isn't a problem, then how do you explain their failure to grow? We have a very different perspective on this. Where would the Catholic Church be today if it didn't have all of that baggage? It's even conceivable that the Protestant Reformation wouldn't have happened! What might Jimmy Swaggart have achieved if he hadn't had his little scandal? Where would Donald Trump be today without all of that baggage? Joe Biden may have never been president! Personally, I like what Faulkner had to say on the subject: "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
Orthodox Christianity has a sordid history of persecution and censorship far worse than HWA. Why should anyone listen to hypocrites who have no credibility?
The point is that if one leaves the existence of a god out of the picture....... Almost everything HWA predicted has come true. We are already in the infancy of a globally controlled big brother world of which China is the prototype, with social ranking points for the individual needed to get mortgages or live somewhere.
The lion and the lamb as the seal of wcg will "live together" as currently the global food system is being transformed into vegetarianism or artificial soy meat. And this is only one example of HWA being the greatest announcer or apostle of "the world tomorrow" which is already in it's infancy...... As Elon Musk descendants will take (enhanced) man into Space as it's final destination and "awesome potential".... Nck
5:46 wrote: "Orthodox Christianity has a sordid history of persecution and censorship far worse than HWA. Why should anyone listen to hypocrites who have no credibility?"
Your statement proves why COG members have such a poor understanding of anything outside Armstrongism. When "orthodox" is discussed is NOT about the Orthodox Church, but orthodox beliefs which are traditionally established beliefs/practices that have stood the test of time.
Speaking of hypocrites, what about the hypocrites in the Church of God leadership? The rapists? The child molesters, The stalkers? The serial adulterers? The porn addicts? The alcoholics? The self-appointed leaders?
Before you blame others for their problems get your own house in order and hold them accountable.
Orthodox
(of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.
"orthodox medical treatment"
Hey Lonnie: I’m glad you are pushing this issue!
I am firmly against CGI and the other splinters attempting to whitewash their history.
However, I believe that people and organizations should have a path to get past the past mistakes they’ve committed.
I believe that we all should be forgiven of the past – repenting helps.
I have no problem with GTA’s sexploits, in the sense that we are all sinners.
I’m sure GTA has since repented of his sins against God, his wife, and women in general.
Although, I struggle with and cannot even fathom a guess as to how HWA faired with history of raping his daughter; everything should be left to God to handle.
GTA’s sins don’t make CGI heretical, but their doctrines do.
CGI lying or unintentionally contorting their history has the high probability of hurting present people – the general public, not so much, since CGI reaches very few people – but CGI does do substantial harm to their own precious people by mischaracterizing their history.
Also, God’s not too happy with heresy.
Jeff Reed wrote on Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 2:33:00 PM, in a comment to your post, CGI’s Mike James: The Sabbatarian Churches of God Are REAL Christians - everybody else, NOT so much!:
"Did some of their deception come into CGI from its inception?" No, we rejected the HWA Apostle doctrine, place of safety, setting dates, etc. Our Statement of Beliefs is a solid, biblically based document.
Obviously, I don’t know Jeff’s motive for writing such a visibly false statement – perhaps he’s not fully aware of how wrong it is.
Is it correct that GTA’s split from the mother cult was not about doctrine, and that GTA took all WCG doctrines to form his new cult?
Lonnie, can you cite any instances, after the inception of CGI, in which GTA continued to preach, stated as by the authority of God, the same failed prophesies as HWA preached?
I asked this because I would like CGI to come to reality about their church being conceived by a false prophet who continued to deceive people with false prophesies for many years, under CGI.
The ugly fact that CGI was conceived in deception and is continuing in deception should, thank you Jesus, be turned into a helpful agent to the CGI, so that they can use that fact of history to repent and review their current doctrines - their Statement of Beliefs and Systematic Theology Project - to see what needs to be trashed and reconsider the glorious New Covenant concepts that they are rejecting, by not covering. This would also help them to gain fresh perspective on Jesus and the law.
Thanks for everything you’re doing for this cause!
Lonnie asks,
"if CGI's past isn't a problem, how do you explain their failure to grow"?
There are many factors that go into why some things happen and some don't.
Why did Noah only have 8 converts?
Why did everyone desert Jesus Christ in His time of trial?
Why were most of the apostles martyred?
Why does 1in 44 children in the U.S. develop autism?
Faulkner is correct, " the past is never dead", but it doesn't have to be a stumbling block either, especially if nobody is watching or paying attention.
I think CGI, as Jeff has explained, is doing a good job moving forward. Their beliefs will not appeal or be acceptable to everyone, but that's the nature of the business. There are 41,000 Christian denominations out there to compete with. It's your choice!
After GTA was defrocked by CGI, he founded The Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Association. Did GTA continue to preach the false prophetic interpretations promulgated by his father?
You be the judge:
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/europe-and-america-in-prophecy/
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/the-beast-of-the-apocalypse-what-is-it/
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/the-great-tribulation-is-it-about-to-happen/
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/united-states-of-europe-when/
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/has-it-begun-is-this-the-beginning-of-the-great-tribulation-of-prophecy/
From CGI's Systematic Theology Project:
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
PROJECT (STP) REVISIONS
1978: Original Worldwide Church of God version of the STP released.
1986: First Church of God International printing with minor revisions, including changing
most references of Worldwide Church of God to Church of God International.
2012: CGI Ministerial Council approved revision to remove two “interracial marriage”
paragraphs in The Christian Relationship with Fellowman.
2015: CGI Ministerial Council directive to revise and align the CGI Statement of Beliefs and the CGI Systematic Theology Project to reflect current teaching.
Great video! The Friendly Athiest is an engaging podcast too!
Trooisto,
You wrote "I'm sure GTA has since repented of his sins towards God, his wife and women in general."
I heard many similar comments about members in my congregation when I started attending services. Eventually I witnessed them behave like demons.
Forgiveness isn't like a reset button on a video game that wipes out the past and removes consequences. It's not the way the world works.
Lonnie asks,
"if CGI's past isn't a problem, how do you explain their failure to grow"?
It's God who calls, and places people in His Church as He sees fit. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that low numbers indicates a problem.
The relationship of Armstrongism with history has always been adversarial. The WCG, throughout its years as an Armstrongist operation, sought to redefine history. The question of “What happened in the past?” had to be answered in a way that supported the Armstrongist present. And history as understood and presented by historians did not provide that support.
Into the gap between Armstrongist requirements and historical fact, stepped Dr. Herman Hoeh. His Ph.D. dissertation was the two volume Compendium of World History. It was an alternative history of the world that denied traditional history. His writing relied on the folk legendaria of many nations and contested dating methodologies and traditional archaeology. At the time that Hoeh wrote, genetics at the molecular biology level was not a player. In that context, I believe that history was seen as an obsequious servant to religious or national viewpoint. A similar case, in principle though not in detail, is the research done by Ahnenerbe historians in Nazi Germany to establish an acceptable pseudo-history of the so-called “Aryan” people.
It is breathtaking to think that a church would have to redefine world history to give themselves bona fides and that they would try to sell this view of history along with idiosyncratic interpretations of the Bible. The result of this past practice is that Armstrongists have little respect for the methodologies and findings of historical research. To many Armstrongists I have spoken with, actual history is like a wild conspiracy theory meant to hide the true history of the true church and the racial identities of certain nations. History to them is something that is written by some notable person from the ranks for their ministry – such as Hoeh. Credibility seemed to be contingent on the author and his organizational context. Hoeh’s Compendium was a single viewpoint, teleological work written by a single person where no substantive cross-examination was permitted. This “history” still circulates within Splinterland but it was long ago renounced by its author.
How do Armstrongists deal with the burden of their history? The factual content is only one issue. A revision of their view of what history actually is would be required.
Hawk
"I think CGI, as Jeff has explained, is doing a good job moving forward. Their beliefs will not appeal or be acceptable to everyone, but that's the nature of the business. There are 41,000 Christian denominations out there to compete with. It's your choice!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_International_%28United_States%29
My goal is to explain accurately as I understand where our organization is currently. I have never denied the problems in the past. We have to learn not to repeat them and identify any other ways we can improve. The Wikipedia article about our church describes our church's history and current leadership pretty well. This was authored by someone not a part of the Church of God. They refer to us as Restorationists, which is an accurate description.
Regarding Armstrongism, it is listed under See Also. I would encourage anyone interested in our church History to read that article. That way, they can see how much we differ from the WWCG.
But biblically, a case can be made that dwelling on the past is not the healthiest thing for an individual or church to do.
"Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13-14 ESV
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. "Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV
"Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert." Isaiah 43:18-19 ESV
I also can make the case for not following men but Jesus. Which is CGI's goal.
"For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?" 1 Corinthians 3:4
I once visited another COG group's office and saw a really nice painting of HWA hanging on the wall. It was a bit of culture shock because I never think of the man when I do my work for CGI, except lately when I visit this blog. I do understand there are those who show some type of reverence or idolize him.
@6:04am, “It's God who calls, and places people in His Church as He sees fit.” If God is calling, which Church is is placing people, or is he dispersing people a few here, in a Christian based church, a few there, in a Jewish based church, or a Muslim based church? Everyone of them have sincere, genuinely convicted members, all of which believe in God. Sincerely curious.
6.04 AM PDT
I disagree. I believe that the number of people and types that God calls is influenced by the spiritual state of His church. God has a responsibility of giving called people the education and assistance they need to succeed. Toxic churches aren't supplying this.
Every religion known to man has had leaders speak and act without the authority of God.
I would much rather be in a church with a few earthly leaders who make a few false predictions as opposed to a church with a few earthly leaders who engage in continuous unrepentant sex with little boys.
Hawk,
You concisely articulated the Armstrongist view of (and relationship with) history. Indeed, their historical methodology is very similar to that which they employ in their various interpretations of Scripture. It is the antithesis of science. They only accept and entertain evidence which supports their thesis - everything else is ignored or rejected. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
Jeff,
Again, I applaud you for having the courage to step into the arena here. Your willingness to engage with us calls to mind the late Ian Boyne for many of us.
Nevertheless, your use of Paul's epistle to the Philippians in this instance is misleading and self-serving. You ignore the context of Paul's remarks about his own past within the Jewish religion (3:1-6). After establishing his credentials regarding obedience to Torah, he wrote: "7 I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!
12 I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. 13 No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us."
In other words, Paul considered his background in Judaism to be worthless compared to what Christ had offered to him - something which was no longer worthy of his attention - as something that might even impede his current spiritual journey if he were to dwell on it!
Mark Wolfe,
I'd rather NOT be a part of either organization. Even so, I believe that I have brothers and sisters in Christ in both of them!
Miller,
"Nevertheless, your use of Paul's epistle to the Philippians in this instance is misleading and self-serving."
There are similarities between CGI and Paul in context. He no longer accepted the belief that he should not count on his own righteousness, and so do we. In the same way that we put off the old WWCG false beliefs, Paul put aside his false beliefs.
Back when I was choosing a church, I inquired with WWCG about being baptized. They wanted me to read a whole lot of booklets, attend church for a specific time, tithe, and do all of these works before they would even consider baptizing me. There was a teaching that you had to qualify to even be baptized. That was ridiculous.
I called CGI, and the elder discussed what it meant and set up a date within a few weeks to get baptized. It would have been sooner except for finding a horse trough. At that point, I had only heard of GTA, maybe a week before I called.
In the 30 years since, I have never viewed my obedience to Jesus after baptism as in any way qualifying for salvation. I have always had salvation through grace. Obedience to Christ is a response to His Grace. It is allowing even more grace into my life.
Mark Wolfe,
I'm not sure which group you are talking about that is unrepentant of pedophilia. But, the WCG had its share and ministers. Further HWA's 10 year incestuous raping of his daughter Dorothy is a lot more than someone who "missed a few predictions". GTA had his adulteries as well. There are others (e.g. Kevin Dean, the head of Imperial Schools).
For it's size, the corruption of the WCG punched above its weight.
Hello Anonymous at 1:09: I have no idea if GTA ever repented of his sins against God, his wife, and women in general, before his death.
However, since he’s in God’s hands now, I assume God has shown him the light and that GTA is truly sorry for a lot of things.
Hello Mark Wolfe: I don’t know if you are an Armstrongite, but your comment at August 7 at 10:41 AM sounded similar to things I’ve personally heard Armstronites say and have seen written on this blog.
You wrote: I would much rather be in a church with a few earthly leaders who make a few false predictions as opposed to a church with a few earthly leaders who engage in continuous unrepentant sex with little boys.
On one level, I agree with you – but also agree with Lonnie, since neither are acceptable.
With Armstrongism, you are likely to get both types of sin.
One problem with pedophilia is that it is hidden – it must be stealth to survive and perpetuate the harm to innocent victims.
False predictions are a public warning sign that there are other evils lurking within the false prophet and his organization.
I don’t know if HWA or GTA were bona fide psychopaths but their actions appear to fit the definition; they did not seem to have empathy for their victims.
The pervie pair did not seem to care about the victims they defrauded with use of false prophesies to raise money – likewise, they didn’t seem to care about the women they victimized.
In HWA’s case, his only known victim was a minor child when the raping started.
Your comment reminded me of a typical Armstrongite defense mode employed by claiming that other groups are worse, and thereby excusing the problems with Armstrongism.
I realize that this deflection is a common human trait; but Armstrongites make it an art form.
In fact, Armstrongites were indoctrinated with the demonizing of other churches – this serves to cause the people feel superior, called out as special – and helped to make the people learn to excuse bad behavior when it surfaced to the public level in “God’s Church”.
That’s why I see Armstrongites who kinda acknowledge some sins within their church excuse the problems by saying, “at least were not like those sinner Catholics”.
Again, I agree with your point, on one level – but how much false prophecy is okay with you?
When the conscience of a leader does not stop him from uttering false predictions, by the authority of God, then I think that leader is pretty much his own god, sets his own rules, and is even able to perpetuate violence against a child. That sums up my take on HWA and that is a big part of the reason I warn others about Armstrongism.
Hello Jeff: today you wrote:
“I have never denied the problems in the past.”
When asked if HWA and GTA's deception impacted CGI from the start, you responded at Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 2:33:00 PM PDT,
"Did some of their deception come into CGI from its inception?" No, we rejected the HWA Apostle doctrine, place of safety, setting dates, etc. Our Statement of Beliefs is a solid, biblically based document.
I find these two statements contradictory.
Would you like to clarify your statement from August 1?
Did GTA found CGI on the same doctrines held by WCG?
There is a time to put the past behind you and focus on the future.
St. Paul was fully transparent with his sins of persecuting and killing Christians.
However, the Bible records many of the mistakes of others to help us learn from the past.
Whitewashing the past does not build a future; the denial chokes individuals and eventually the entire church.
Armstrongites explain away the minimal growth they’ve encountered as being the decision of God; he calls who he desires - and I can accept that reasoning, on some level.
However, what about the people supposedly called to the COGs by God – and then leave to tell their horror stories?
I don’t know the numbers but it seems that the vast majority of those who’ve entered Armstrongism, have exited while still vertical.
Armstrongites explain the attrition by stating these people have abandoned their calling – that way they never have to consider the stories of those who exit.
They then can continue believing that they are extra special for being loyal, instead of examining the conditions that drive people away.
"I would much rather be in a church with a few earthly leaders who make a few false predictions as opposed to a church with a few earthly leaders who engage in continuous unrepentant sex with little boys."
What an ignorant statement! There have been numerous ministers from Armstrongism who were pedophiles and sentenced to prison. They had unrepentant sex with little boys and girls and carried on till they were finally arrested. No one in the church ever tried to intervene, but the public sure did. Armstrongimsm is filled with false prophets and pedophiles. No one on this entire green earth needs either of them.
I don't know about the churches of God, but I do know that the Catholic church has its pedophile problems, if that's who Mark is referring to.
Also, concerning history past. One thing CGI inherited from the mother church is a church that never bothered to cultivate it's young! I'm not implying they do that now, but most of the cogs are "old", grand parents and great grandparents, not people with teenagers and young children, so the natural turnaround isn't forthcoming any time soon. Based on that alone, eventually they will all die out.
Another thing. Even in WCGs heyday of having one of the top evangelist programs on the planet, they didn't have great numbers because they chose to make it difficult for people to join. My own parents were originally turned away over D and R issues, and it was only after they separated were they allowed in!
The future of CGI is one where their congregations are old, the competition is great, and Christianity itself is on a downward spiral. As commentator John would say, time will tell . . .
Trooista said:
"I find these two statements contradictory.
Would you like to clarify your statement from August 1?
Did GTA find CGI on the same doctrines held by WCG?"
As I have mentioned earlier, the doctrines that came from WCG to CGI were not unique to WCG. There are a lot of doctoral differences that occurred with the split. Most importantly, there were substantial administrative differences because CGI was an open church that practiced servant leadership. The STP was rejected in WCG and adopted into CGI with some changes.
So no I do not believe deception was a part of our founding.
To 6:07
"Armstrongites explain the attrition by stating these people have abandoned their calling – that way they never have to consider the stories of those who exit.
They then can continue believing that they are extra special for being loyal, instead of examining the conditions that drive people away."
___________________________________________________________________________________
I know, and they will tell you to forgive and to continue in the faith. But what they won't do themselves is change and stop their detrimental ways. Then you have some ministers that have been a part of 3 or 4 different COG ministries. It's a joke.
What I do like about CGI is they brought with them core doctrines that are unique to COG7 without the dictatorial nature and the added doctrines of Armstrongism. So many in the church can fellowship and generally agree on the nature of God, the Holy Spirit, soul sleep, Sabbath, etc. without having to worry about a minister getting overly involved with their life.
Jeff,
While it is certainly true that many of Herbert Armstrong's individual doctrines are shared by other groups, the package/constellation is unique to Armstrongism. As you know, the STP was the product of high-ranking ministers within the old Worldwide Church of God. And, although Herbert strongly resisted any efforts to codify Church teachings (because that would curtail his ability to change them on a whim), the teachings of the STP were simply an attempt to standardize and justify HIS teachings.
Hence, by adopting the STP wholesale, CGI effectively adopted ALL of Armstrong's teachings as they existed prior to GTA's exit from the parent organization. In other words, the main problem that GTA and his allies had with Worldwide was Herbert's governance, NOT his doctrines. So, yes, CGI instituted a more servant-based approach to leadership and how the organization was to be administered. The doctrines, however, were basically the SAME. That's why I included the STP timeline from CGI's current version of the STP, and why I included some of GTA's post CGI writings. They both demonstrate that the actual doctrines didn't change very much.
Indeed, CGI is not unique among the splinters in acknowledging that there were problems with Worldwide's structure/governance/administration. What many of us here are saying is that those acknowledgements were a good beginning, but that there were also serious problems with the basic theology of Herbert Armstrong! In other words, many of the actual doctrines were wrong and also needed to be chucked or revised.
Mike and I did a webcast this afternoon about this blog and recent criticisms.
Prove All Things (Episode 123) - Banned by HWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apW1rzkld3o
We invite Lonnie, Trooista, or anyone else to join us live on a future webcast to discuss your ideas.
Jeff: CGI must be a miracle; a GOG immaculate conception – born with no deception or deceit.
CGI was birthed by a deceived deceiver who formed his own church to feed his narcissistic need to preach and be adored for preaching (which included boning adoring groupies).
CGI was started a couple of years after the false prophesies about 1975.
GTA, founder of CGI, preached all of the false doctrines surrounding 1975 in Prophecy.
GTA had a fight with his father about GTA’s failure to hide his sexual sins.
GTA got kicked out of his father’s church, so he formed his own church, built on the same doctrines as WCG – same odd deceptions too.
After starting CGI, GTA continued to preach the Germans will invade the US and the lost tribes of Israel are the US and various European nations.
Yet your claim is that amidst all this demonstrable deception CGI was miraculously born with no deception.
That is magical thinking, maybe even Simon Magus-level magical thinking.
It’s a fact that GTA did not split from WCG over doctrinal issues.
GTA was more than happy to stay with WCG, as the heir apparent to HWA’s throne.
GTA was a valuable asset to HWA; if GTA had been able to continue banging anyone he desired without it becoming public knowledge, HWA and GTA would have remained united in their plans for WCG.
Once HWA was compelled to boot him, GTA started his new church with ministers and strong men who were loyal to HWA and all of his teachings, but slightly more loyal to GTA, as long as GTA taught what his father taught.
GTA has a searchable record of teaching deceptions, proven false from the Bible, that continue in CGI today, such as British Israelism and that celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus, cannot be found within the Bible.
The Systematic Theology is a major distraction away from essential Chirstian doctrines, since grace and justification are not covered – while the deceptive doctrine of qualifying for the Kingdom is espoused.
It’s frustrating that you cannot see the nature of your founding fathers and the deception that was central to the founding of CGI and its doctrines.
At least this blog exists to expose those things that you deny and the magical COG thinking.
It seems to me that when CGI began they purged doctrines from the WCG that were not biblical.
-Modern day apostles
-One true church
-Church government
-Place of Safety
-Church eras
-19 year time cycles
These doctrines all led to date setting for the return of Christ.
The core doctrines remained but they were in various churches long before HWA came upon the scene.
If you want to fellowship in a church with leaders and followers who are without sin, then you will never belong to a church.
GTA's personal sins are GTA's sins. They are not CGI's sins.
HWA's personal sins are HWA's sins. They are not WCG's sins.
Mark Wolfe wrote:
"The core doctrines remained but they were in various churches long before HWA came upon the scene.
If you want to fellowship in a church with leaders and followers who are without sin, then you will never belong to a church.
GTA's personal sins are GTA's sins. They are not CGI's sins.
HWA's personal sins are HWA's sins. They are not WCG's sins."
Thanks Mark, that is exactly what I am trying to convey!
What I believe now would be the same even if there wasn't a CGI. I would be in another organization that believed the same things. Even if HWA never formed the WCG there would still be Sabbatarian Church of God denominations. It was inevitable due to the increased availability of knowledge in society.
Trooista, I stand by my assertion that our Statement of Beliefs is solidly based on Biblical teaching. I know you disagree and nothing I can write would convince you.
I just ask our critics to evaluate us on our current teaching and practices and not to create straw men arguments.
Trooista, you said that we were teaching deception by saying "that celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus, cannot be found within the Bible." So where in the Bible does it say to celebrate Christmas? If someone wants to celebrate Christmas that is their choice, but there is no Biblical mandate for its observance. I can find plenty of instances to show me that God is not pleased with syncretism. We choose to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles which is a far more meaningful way to understand the Nativity and Jesus tabernacling with Man. That is our choice.
Trooista wrote: "CGI was birthed by a deceived deceiver who formed his own church to feed his narcissistic need to preach and be adored for preaching (which included boning adoring groupies). "
"It’s frustrating that you cannot see the nature of your founding fathers and the deception that was central to the founding of CGI and its doctrines."
The ad hominem logical fallacy you are using is known as "guilt by association." The moral failures of GTA have nothing to do whether the doctrines in our our organization are correct.
Jeff & Mark: the sole reason for CGI’s existence is the lusts of one dick.
Had GTA been able to keep his appetite more private, he would have clung to WCG until it was all his – that was also one of his burning desires.
I’ve said a few times that I’m sure God has straightened GTA out on his sins related to abusing women – I’m sure GTA has been corrected on doctrine too - problems solved, for GTA.
I guess I do associate GTA's moral failings with your doctrines because you cannot separate the kookiness of your founding fathers, in and out of the pulpit, and claim that despite all their deception, CGI was not infected with the same deception at its birth.
My point, contrary to Jeff’s comment: “The ad hominem logical fallacy you are using is known as guilt by association." – is that CGI is still deceived.
CGI was conceived by GTA and Goons who had been deceived by HWA’s false prophesies and continued to perpetrate deception with the same false prophesies (minus 1975, since that fiasco had just passed on the calendar).
The false prophesies that centered around the identity of “Israelitish Nations” and Germany still exist in CGI.
CGI’s Statement of Beliefs and STP mostly ignore grace and justification, while the STP speaks of “qualifying for the Kingdom”.
Obviously, the deception that CGI was founded on and continues to feed on is producing misunderstandings about law and grace.
To claim you are being attacked with strawman arguments and ad hominin logical fallacies seems to me to be very typical tactics of Armstrongite ministers – which is another proof, to me, of CGI not having come far enough out of the world of Armstrongism.
I offer hope to CGI and you see it as an attack.
What’s wrong with examining your Statement of Beliefs to see if you could add information about grace and justification, in proportion with what is found in the New Testament?
Given that your STP is proven to be biblically wobbly by its present rejection of the concepts of grace and justification, what could possibly be wrong with adding these concepts to the STP?
Why is more grace and justification so anathema to you?
My perception of your actions and reactions is that you are fighting to keep CGI in its dark deception.
Jeff,
After seeking the advice and counsel of several people whom I respect, and after much reflection and consideration (and prayer), I have decided to tentatively accept your invitation to appear on PROVE All Things. That is, if we can agree beforehand to be courteous, respectful, remain focused on theology and eschew personal attacks, I agree to appear with you (Jeff Reed) and Mike James at a time that will be convenient and acceptable to all of us. Also, I anticipate that our discussion will focus on the posts I have penned which have criticized various aspects of CGI’s teachings/messaging. If you would like to discuss other issues or invite additional hosts or guests, please inform me in advance of the show (I reserve the right to withdraw from my commitment to participate if those changes are unacceptable to me). You have displayed great courage in being willing to participate in the forum at Banned by HWA. Hence, I think it is only fair and equitable that I extend to you the same courtesy.
Jeff: Armstrongites rarely can resist the Christmas bait!
You wrote:
“Trooista, you said that we were teaching deception by saying "that celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus, cannot be found within the Bible." So where in the Bible does it say to celebrate Christmas?”
First, like all splinters from Armstrongism, CGI teaches that celebrating Christmas is a horrible sin; you judge those who celebrate the birth of Jesus to be pagans.
You did quote me correctly when I stated that GTA/CGI have a record of teaching deception, such as “celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus, cannot be found within the Bible”
But then, in a manner I’ve come to associate with Armstrongites, you twisted the meaning of my words by asking “So where in the Bible does it say to celebrate Christmas?” – thereby inferring that I said the Bible says to celebrate Christmas. Do you also recognize that as an Armstrongite tactic?
As a minister, of course you are familiar with the story of Jesus’ birth in Luke 2. It takes a certain familiar, deceived, mindset to miss the heavenly and earthly celebration of Christmas in that story that has inspired so much worship from Angels and Christians throughout the centuries.
But not the COGs – in their deception, they missed what the angels called good news and great joy to the world (v 10). The COG non-harking heart cannot hear the heavenly choirs singing praise to God for the birth of the Light of the World (v 13-14). The COG heart is not like Mary’s heart, in the way that she treasured and dwelled on the miraculous events of the night of the dear Savior’s birth (v 19).
Unlike the shepherds (v 17-18, 20) that had met the Angles who were celebrating the event, the COGs are not overjoyed to spread the word of this divine night. Instead, the COGs vilify those who do commemorate this most important event – they call them pagans for doing exactly what the Angels and the shepherds did. As you referred to syncretism, the COGs see (wrongly) only the bad and label what is good as evil.
Christians are not forbidden to celebrate what was/is celebrated in heaven. The birth of Jesus was one of God’s most important events, the celebration of which the deceived COGs label as evil. Another being Easter, the resurrection of Jesus – the celebration of which is also hated by the COGs. Christians feel moved, compelled by the Holy Spirit to celebrate God's great loving events.
As outsiders, observing people who say they are Christians and yet hate the celebration of two of God’s most awesome events, we can only fathom that these people must be deceived – while you judge us to be the deceived, when we are praising God for these beautiful events, on our days of Christmas and Easter.
I don’t judge you for keeping the Feast of Tabernacles – but I can’t help wonder how much teaching of some, but not all, Old Covenant law, as a distraction from teaching/praising Jesus will occur … because I’ve read COG literature and heard COG sermons.
At least you will be treated to inspiring Christmas music at your FOT, if the tradition of singing Handel’s “Hallelujah Chorus” is continued. That’s one example of syncretism, or appropriating as your own, that’s somehow alright within the COG’s.
Could you go one step farther and sing “Joy to the World” at the FOT? I know that the COG’s have banned that Christian-beloved hymn as a pagan song that only the deceived sing – but surely you agree that there’s nothing unbiblical about the lyrics, right?
When the time comes, I will heartily, sincerely, wish you a happy FOT; can you later wish me a Merry Christmas? I don't think that you would say that I'm keeping the FOT by wishing that you enjoy your event; are you prohibited from wishing me a Merry Christmas because you then would be keeping Christmas?
Lonnie,
"After seeking the advice and counsel of several people whom I respect, and after much reflection and consideration (and prayer), I have decided to tentatively accept your invitation to appear on PROVE All Things."
Great, I look forward to a friendly discussion.
Addressing Trooista:
"As a minister, of course you are familiar with the story of Jesus’ birth in Luke 2. It takes a certain familiar, deceived, mindset to miss the heavenly and earthly celebration of Christmas in that story that has inspired so much worship from Angels and Christians throughout the centuries."
I understand it is a sincerely held belief, I just associate the birth of Jesus with Tabernacles.
"Another being Easter, the resurrection of Jesus – the celebration of which is also hated by the COGs."
We celebrate Passover and Unleavened Bread commemorating the same events. The Roman church moved their celebration of Passover to a Sunday in the second century. A lot of languages still refer to it as Passover. "Easter" is a word used by Germanic languages around the time they began associating non Biblical (pagan) customs as part of the celebration.
"Could you go one step farther and sing “Joy to the World” at the FOT? I know that the COG’s have banned that Christian-beloved hymn as a pagan song that only the deceived sing – but surely you agree that there’s nothing unbiblical about the lyrics, right?"
I have sung this song at FOTs. I don't see anything wrong with the song. It is page 40 in the hymnal used in our Tyler congregation.
"When the time comes, I will heartily, sincerely, wish you a happy FOT; can you later wish me a Merry Christmas?"
I would say "Happy Holidays" or "Enjoy Your Holiday" and genuinely hope you have a wonderful time with friends and family.
Wow Jeff! I am stunned, impressed, and truly filled with joy over the news that CGI sings “Joy to the World”!
How do you handle this line in the hymn?: He rules the world with truth and grace.
Do you change the lyrics to: He rules the world with truth and LAW?
Or, does the congregation just sing: He rules the world with truth and hummmm?
Just joking, I know you claim to be cozy with grace, even if I can’t see the evidence.
CGI singing a traditional Christmas hymn is another bombshell you have dropped on this astonished blog (the first being an admission that those outside of the COGs can be saved)!
Both HWA and GTA would be rolling in their graves (but I think they’d probably find that arousing, so God wouldn’t allow it).
Sounds like Herbie’s version of the FOT (very unlike the biblical FOT) has been born again as CGI Christmas!
But, could you sing “Joy to the World” while holding lit candles and with the walls of your meeting space adorned with fragrant tree branches?
Does CGI obey the command to FOT decorate with tree branches (Leviticus 32:40)? If you did, that would really conjure the Christmas spirit at your festival.
I have it on good authority that in the early days of HWA’s FOT at Mt. Pocono, workmen cut branches of varied Autumnal colors (mostly reds and golds) from the surrounding forest and artfully affixed (so they could not move) the branches on the walls of the hideous metal Festival building.
However, Herbie later decided that FOT decorating was a law he refused to keep – probably because hanging tree branches at all FOT sites would be an expense that would cut into necessities like private jet excursions or Stueben Crystal shopping sprees.
Therefore, I have no idea whether the command to FOT decorate made it into CGI’s immaculate conception.
Jeff, does your church FOT decorate in accordance with Holy Scripture?
If CGI forgoes the commanded tree decorations, what rationale is employed to suppress this part of God’s instruction?
And, why are we pagan Christians condemned by the COGs for our tree deco?
I’ll forevermore claim that I’ve appropriated our family Christmas Tree straight from Leviticus 40.
I do like to hang big round and elongated citrons (home-grown) on the Christmas tree; decorating with citrons is an ancient Jewish Sukkot tradition that is not mentioned in the Bible.
Jeff, I know that the COGs insist (although no one knows for sure) that Jesus was born in the Autumn, as signaled by your CGI FOT/Christmas; but have you ever examined any of the evidence provided on the topic of how the birth of our dear Savior could have been in the Winter?
I know that one COG-odd “proof” used to set an Autumn nativity is the fact sheep and shepherds were abiding in the fields at the time of Jesus’ birth, but the COGs reason that winters are cold around Bethlehem, so Jesus was not born in the Winter. I mostly spend winters in a climate that is said to be very similar to the climate of the Holy Land. At least on some days during every winter, we’re all running around in swimsuits from dawn to late night. Lest you chock that up to global warming, we also get a few nights of frost during most, but not every, winter. I’m sure you too are familiar with mild and harsh fluctuations within your own climate. It’s possible that a mild winter period hosted the birth of the Holy Infant, so tender and mild (could CGI sing “Silent Night” – if the answer is no, is it because the lyrics include the phrase “redeeming grace”?).
Why is syncretism, in the form of singing our pagan hymns and FOT-commemorating the birth of Jesus kosher for the COGs but you condemn we pagan Christians of syncretism (though wrongly interpreting every custom and motive)?
Jeff, I’m likely to be near a CGI Florida FOT site around Feast time, perhaps I’ll stop in for a traditional Christmas carol and help you with your tree deco; I’m excited to experience CGI Christmas!
Trooista said:
“Jeff, I’m likely to be near a CGI Florida FOT site around Feast time, perhaps I’ll stop in for a traditional Christmas carol and help you with your tree deco; I’m excited to experience CGI Christmas!”
It is hard to figure out your tone but I am guessing you are trying to get a rise out me.
I never said the Feast is CGI Christmas. Only that the symbolism of Jesus dwelling with men is captured better in the Feast of Tabernacles.
As you know, our big issue with Christmas is the overt pagan symbolism used in worship of Jesus. It is something we are not comfortable doing.
“Joy to the World” was not intended by the composer to be a Christmas song. It was meant to reflect on the Second Coming. I know it was appropriated for Christmas, but that to me doesn’t prevent me singing it to praise God.
Unfortunately, the heavy hand of history was evident in the sermon delivered to the Tyler, Texas congregation of CGI this past Sabbath. What was the message? The importance of Anglo-Israelism to that organization's messaging. The sermon decried the fact that the "warning" message wasn't being preached enough to the "Israelite" nations of the United States and the former British Empire. Yes, "the past is never dead. It's not even past." (Faulkner was absolutely right). As much as Jeff and the rest of us would like to see CGI move on from such extra-scriptural nonsense, it appears that it cannot be extinguished within that culture!
Yes! Didn't David Hulme's whole damned ACOG pack up and leave him when he walked away from British Israelism? If HWA
had been Jesus, BI would be one of the two great commandments of the Lord! It'd be 1) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and show Him by keeping all of the Old Covenant Laws" and 2) "Remember that the U.S and B.C are Manasseh and Ephraim!"
Jeff: you taught me something new; I did not know that “Joy to the World” was not originally a Christmas hymn.
However, just like the day December 25, was not originally pagan – if it was claimed by pagans – then the COGs teach it’s forever pagan – same goes with all the “pagan” accouterments of Christmas.
Therefore, since we pagan Christmas-keepers, from long ago, continuously to the present, claim “Joy to the World” as a favorite Christmas hymn, it is forever our pagan song.
When you sing it, you are joining in our customs – at CGI Christmas!
For the record, I don’t believe any Christian Christmas customs were/are pagan. Attempts to paint them as pagan have been sufficiently debunked. However, Christmas has also become a much-loved secular holiday and they’ve added their own touches to the seasons. Christmas is even enjoyed by some self-identifying pagans – so CGI is in good company.
I’m still hoping you will answer the question of whether your church FOT decorates in accordance with Leviticus 23:40?
If CGI forgoes the commanded tree decorations, what rationale is employed to suppress this part of God’s law?
So, what exactly are the “overt pagan symbolism used in worship of Jesus” that you are accusing Christians of engaging in?
It must be that immaculate conception of CGI that gives it special powers to see “pagan” in the actions of other Christians – when we just haplessly go on wallowing in evil.
Jeff: I want to tell you about a miracle happening in LCG!
For several years, I’ve been asking my LCG associates why their church doesn’t preach about grace or justification. They just ignored me – the words did not mean anything to them – if their church didn’t teach about it, it has no value to them. Even when I cited Scripture to them, they had no interest in the concepts. I told them that their church was not preaching the Gospel if they neglected grace and that they had no right to their claim of being “Original Christianity” if they did not preach grace and justification as much as the Apostles – nothing I said fazed them.
Then, the miracle happened - a few days ago, they were so proud to send me a link to an LCG video on YouTube: Understanding God's Grace | The Most Incredible Gift Explained in 5 Simple Points https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kYphHF6g78
The first four points are actually rather good (I do find the drawings to be COG-odd hilarious though). I think most Christians would even agree with the premise of their fifth point. However, I can view it from the vantage point of knowing their law confusion; therefore, I know they’ve got more to learn on the topic.
It is a fantastic first step for LCG! In that first step, LCG has traveled a long way from HWA’s WCG.
I know you are also proud of the way your church embraces grace – again, I give CGI a lot of credit for growing beyond HWA’s teachings.
However, I’m wondering if CGI is going to sit back and watch LCG become the leader among the ACOG splinters, for preaching grace? Or, are you going to step up your efforts to preach God’s loving gifts to your people and the world?
I asked my LCG associates why they were not interested in the topic of grace when I was pushing it – they ignored my question. I then jokingly said that all my posts on this blog trying to get their church to teach about grace was the reason it finally happened – they just ignored me some more.
However, I have been praying for LCG to grow in grace and knowledge, and I will continue to pray for CGI too.
CORRECTION: I was informed this morning by Jeff Reed that this sermon was delivered at the Atlanta, Georgia CGI, NOT Tyler, Texas. Also, he said that the speaker, Jim Eason, is a local elder in an independent COG (and Jeff made clear that he disagreed with his message).
My father, an Armstrongite elder while he was alive, believed that when you are behind the pulpit, speaking to a congregation in a COG setting, your every word is inspired directly by God!
We had also been admonished by HWA during that era to take every word spoken by a minister as if it had come directly from Jesus Christ.
Because of some things which were said back then, I had a problem with that. Don't get me wrong, I did find some of the things said in sermons and sermonettes to be very edifying, but there were many other things which just did not seem right.
This is why, when I now hear of ministers and elders bringing their own political views into their messages, I see it as being very damaging. There are those who still hang on to every word and who will modify their own opinions and behavioral patterns in response to what is preached at ACOG sabbath services.
Trooista asked,
"I'm still hoping you will answer the question of whether your church FOT decorates in accordance with Leviticus 23:40?
If CGI forgoes the commanded tree decorations, what rationale is employed to suppress this part of God's law?"
Yes, we do.
Trooista asked,
"So, what exactly are the "overt pagan symbolism used in worship of Jesus" that you are accusing Christians of engaging in?"
Here are some references that describe many of them.
https://www.euronews.com/culture/2021/12/05/merry-saturnalia-which-christmas-traditions-are-actually-pagan
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-rome/saturnalia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
Trooista wrote,
"For the record, I don't believe any Christian Christmas customs were/are pagan. Attempts to paint them as pagan have been sufficiently debunked."
Most historians understand the pagan roots of Christmas. Who do you know debunked that widely accepted history? That sounds like some sort of pseudohistory.
Trooista wrote,
"However, I’m wondering if CGI is going to sit back and watch LCG become the leader among the ACOG splinters, for preaching grace? Or, are you going to step up your efforts to preach God’s loving gifts to your people and the world?"
I watched the LCG video that you linked, and it was excellent. Would you believe me if I said that is how I and everyone else I know in the Church of God have always understood grace? At least since I have been attending.
Grace will always be an important part of the message I preach:
The Riches of God's Grace
https://subsplash.com/churchofgodinternational/media/mi/+bw9jw4r
A few posts that have some bearing on the subject of Christmas:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/12/pagan-holidays-or-gods-holy-days-really.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-plain-truth-about-christmas-trees.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2021/12/the-saturnalia-and-brumalia.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2021/12/the-ancient-origins-of-christmas.html
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2022/03/paganism-and-christianity.html
Trooista wrote:
"However, Christmas has also become a much-loved secular holiday and they’ve added their own touches to the seasons."
If you want to keep Christmas, that is your choice. I have friends and family that keep it, and I know they do it for sincere reasons. I will also admit that no one keeping it today associates what they are doing with paganism, despite the origins. But, just as it is your choice to keep, it is ours not to. We choose a different way away from what is mainstream.
Jeff: So you do decorate with trees for the FOT – I’ve got to see this!
Please post links to photos (in case I can’t make to the FOT – and I don’t think my piqued anticipation will allow me to wait so long) and CGI literature that describes your commitment to keeping Leviticus 23:40.
Your tree decorations make you stand out amongst all the splinters as the most righteous and best keepers of law pertaining to the FOT!
Jeff: you wrote an offensive statement to Christians, past and present – in fact, in the present moment, I cannot think of a more cruel, slanderous, and vile insult you could pin on Christians.
You wrote:
“As you know, our big issue with Christmas is the overt pagan symbolism used in worship of Jesus.”
Actually, I’m not offended at all; if you’re in the fight, you should try to hit as hard as you can – Christians can take it; we’ve been doing it for centuries.
I do have a need to point out that I sense that there are times when you may be easily offended – I recall a time when you likened me to Pack, Theil, and Flurry when I said something you did not like.
So, if you are going to hurl accusations like Christians overtly worship Jesus with pagan symbolism, you had better have your facts lined up to stand behind such a heinous insult.
Just like there’s fake news and junk science, there is also junk history.
The three references you cited are certainly junk history – which also happen to align with HWA’s junk theology, which CGI was infected with, through GTA, during its “immaculate” conception.
Pervie Herbie got a lot of support for his Christmas is pagan ideas from Allender Hislop who made fantastical leaps to lay pagan practices on Christianity, which do not stand up to in-depth, scholarly research. The 19th Century had too many poor historians who wrongly linked Christianity with paganism – a custom which was probably rooted in not understanding both Christianity and paganism very well. Even Ralph Woodrow, a disciple of Hislop and GOG-beloved pseudo theologian recanted his heresies and said that in the approach he and Hislop used in their writings, they could define anything as pagan.
There’s an abundance of sources that support the same information presented by your references – the most vocal critics are atheists on a mission to discredit Christianity (probably sincere believers in their own world view doing what they believe is right/good). I’ve heard of a few Muslim authors who also make the claim of how Christianity is based on paganism. There are even misguided Christian sources that have succumbed to the notion that Christianity borrowed from paganism. Again, it’s easy to mischaracterize Christianity when you don’t understand it well – which I believe is the case of the atheists, Muslims, and misguided Christian voices echoing the Christmas is pagan theme – to which I must add the Armstrongite choir.
Jeff, as a minister, you cannot afford to make a mistake here. You cannot go on insulting Christians with such a vile reproach and teaching your people to likewise – unless, until you’ve done better research. Please try reading some sources that give a counter argument to the references you cited – there are many. One of my frequent criticisms of Armstrongites – whom I used to call COGlodytes (for living under the church rock), is that Armstrongites are inbred and in-read. By that I mean that Armstrongites are a closed group that only studies their own materials or the works of others that support their own ideas – but never anything that would challenge their thinking.
I don’t think you’d accept any of my counterpoints, and I’m falling asleep already – so it’s up to you to make sure you’ve done thorough research – work that can bear the weight of accusing us of such evilness in our worship of the Savior. Thank you, Lonnie, for providing links.
Here’s a humorous (not serious but yet more accurate than your references) bit of instruction to encourage you on your journey: Horus Ruins Christmas - YouTube (https://youtu.be/s0-EgjUhRqA)
In fact, I believe that you/your type is referenced at the end of the clip – just insert your name, when you hear “Bill Maher”.
Jeff: I was so tired last night, I missed your comments about grace.
I will check out that link you referenced after a busy day.
You asked:
“Would you believe me if I said that is how I and everyone else I know in the Church of God have always understood grace?”
No, I don’t believe you, for lack of evidence. There’s no record of the COGs preaching about grace.
There has never been a booklet titled “Then Plain Truth About Grace” (though I hear UCG recently released a booklet about grace that I keep forgetting to review).
There’s no record of teaching grace in CGI’s Statement of Beliefs or in CGI’s Systematic Theology Project (yet).
I think one reason COGs don’t preach about grace is that they know it will lead to challenges to their law cherry-picking. If the people of the COGs were turned on to grace, they would have no patience with sermons about bogus prophecies and pastors who blather on about extra-biblical theories. If COGs do mention grace, they must malign Christians as believing that grace gives them license to sin.
Hallelujah however, grace is the gate-way gift that leads people out of the COGs, to freedom in Christ - so I hope to see more evidence of the preaching of grace.
Trooista wrote:
"Please post links to photos (in case I can't make to the FOT – and I don't think my piqued anticipation will allow me to wait so long) and CGI literature that describes your commitment to keeping Leviticus 23:40."
Here is one from my phone. https://www.cgiatlanta.org/picture
Trooista wrote:
"The three references you cited are certainly junk history"
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Yule-festival
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Saturnalia-Roman-festival
Do you consider Britannica junk also? Please provide sources supporting your views. I never referenced Hislop. His book is also pseudohistory.
Trooista wrote:
"Again, it's easy to mischaracterize Christianity when you don't understand it well."
I understand that the first recorded Christmas celebration was in 336 CE. The traditions of Christmas are closer to Saturnalia, Yule, etc. than anything Biblical. Or is that just a coincidence? Why is ok to appropriate pagan practices but just so awful for a Christian to keep a Biblical holy day? The Apostle Paul not only kept the Holy Days, but he also taught lessons about them. The Apostle Paul never kept Christmas because it would not be invented for another 300 years.
Trooista wrote:
"Jeff, as a minister, you cannot afford to make a mistake here. You cannot go on insulting Christians with such a vile reproach and teaching your people to likewise – unless, until you’ve done better research"
I have never insulted Christians. I have just presented the facts of history. If you want to keep Christmas as a religious festival, go ahead. I have not expressed judgment on your decision. I was explaining the logic of my decision.
All the Christmas decorations and that stuff I really could care less about. The non-religious Santa Clause legend is entertaining. I have watched many Christmas movies with COG members and elders. My favorites are "Christmas Vacation," "Die Hard," "A Muppet Christmas Carol," and "Elf." I view them the same way that I look at "Harry Potter," "Star Wars," or "Clash of the Titans." I won't practice witchcraft, fly a spaceship, or worship Zeus. But I can be entertained by the imaginations of storytellers. Christmas is just one mixing pot of Western Culture for 2000 years. I appreciate the creativity, but I draw the line personally as making it a part of my family's religious practice.
Trooista wrote:
"Jeff, as a minister, you cannot afford to make a mistake here. You cannot go on insulting Christians with such a vile reproach and teaching your people to likewise – unless, until you've done better research. Please try reading some sources that give a counter argument to the references you cited – there are many."
That is why I am here, to discuss with people who have different viewpoints. As someone who holds a skeptical worldview, it is my practice to examine all of the evidence and form my beliefs based on the best possible evidence. Before I Joined CGI, I read all of the criticisms about Armstrongism. I understood all the errors in the HWA books "Mystery of the Ages," "The USA and Britain Prophecy," etc. That didn't change what the Bible taught. I was happy that CGI's statement of beliefs agreed with the Bible and not Armstrong's works. That is why I vehemently reject the label of Armstrongism for my set of beliefs.
It's a Saturnalia miracle.
Jeff said:
"Why is ok to appropriate pagan practices but just so awful for a Christian to keep a Biblical holy day? The Apostle Paul not only kept the Holy Days, but he also taught lessons about them."
Who said anything about it being awful for a Christian to observe a Biblical holy day?
Apostle Paul was a Jew's Jew, what do you expect? Most Messianic Jews keep their observances as well.
Hello Mark Wolfe: I don’t know what you’re wishing for, but I hope your Saturnalia miracle brings you much peace and prosperity.
Perhaps you could also consider that there may be better sources of miracles than Saturnalia.
There is a beautiful miracle described in Luke 2, one which the heavens and earth rejoiced over. If you celebrate all the meaning behind that miracle in Luke 2, light will come into your life and you will discover the peace, joy, and the spiritual prosperity that will make you forget all about Saturnalia.
The miracle of Jesus entering the world has been blessing millions of people with miracles, and not just at Christmas time!
Paul a Jew's Jew? He was from the tribe of Benjamin - Romans 11:1.
Hello Anonymous at 5:34: you were wondering about St. Paul being a Jew.
St. Paul self-identified as a Jew in Acts 21:39:
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia,
Yes, even Pervie Herbie understood that the House of Judah was comprised of the Tribes of Judah, Levi, and part of Benjamin.
Herbie did not understand the teachings of St. Paul, but he did try to grasp the history of Old Testament peoples; which by the way, does not have any bearing on weightier matters, such as salvation.
I don’t think Herbie taught much about Jesus, our Savior, the wisdom of God; so to counter-balance HWA’s neglect and lack of wisdom, I offer this passage tonight:
1 Corinthians 1:23-24
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Hello Jeff: If you want to shake the Armstrongite label, it may help to try to move beyond the stubborn, narrow Armstrongite mindset that holds Armstrongites within the complete control of Herbie’s teachings.
Earlier you claimed to be aware of the heavenly and earthly celebration depicted in Luke 2, and then the other day, when I mentioned that it's easy to mischaracterize Christianity when you don't understand it well – you inexplicably, unless one considers the hold with which Armstrongism does grip, responded with: “I understand that the first recorded Christmas celebration was in 336 CE.”
No Jeff, no Herbie, no GTA, and no to all those within the Armstrongite mind-meld… the first Christmas really did take place as actually depicted in Luke 2. When dealing with Armstrongites, sometimes it appears that you make some progress in expanding their minds and then they snap back into the creepy bosom of HWA.
Jeff, you wrote: “The traditions of Christmas are closer to Saturnalia, Yule, etc. than anything Biblical.”
Again, read Luke 2; believe your Bible, not HWA or Encyclopedia Britanica (definitely riddled with junk history).
Please Jeff, and all Armstrongites, understand that in Christmas, Christianity is celebrating, annually (if not daily), the miracle of Jesus coming to Earth to be your Savior. That Christmas event comes before Saturnalia, Mithra, Yule-whatever, and the birthday of Sol Invictus – that Christmas event was planned before the foundation of the world.
Pervie Herbie was fond of saying that Satan devised counterfeits for that which God had intended – perhaps, like a stopped clock being right occasionally, Herbie was correct and maybe Satan did try to counterfeit the most wonderful celebrations of God, such as Jesus being born as a human – as planned from the foundations of the world, as planned for the salvation of humanity. Maybe many poor scholars who don’t understand Christianity have an agenda that insists that links be drawn from paganism to Christianity, to discredit Christianity – just like Armstrongites do. Maybe it’s a combo of both the deception of Satan and the deception of poor, agenda-driven scholars.
Why are you so stubborn in attacking Christians celebrating what God ordained from the foundation of the world? Why must you mischaracterize, as pagan, calling what is good, as if it is evil – the motives and practices of those seeking to worship God?
Another example of how Armstrongism has a hold over your thoughts is found in this statement you made a few days ago: “As you know, our big issue with Christmas is the overt pagan symbolism used in worship of Jesus.” Then, the other day, you wrote: “I have never insulted Christians.”
What the Armstrong-freakin’ cuss-cuss do you call that? It is definitely insulting to label Christians, as they are worshipping their Savior, as really worshiping Satan (via paganism, as the Armstrongite mantra flows). There’s no greater insult you can attack Christians with.
Then you, who claims others use strawman agreement against you, have the signature Armstrongite lack of awareness to write: “Why is ok to appropriate pagan practices but just so awful for a Christian to keep a Biblical holy day?” Well, Ronco covered the response aptly on August 15, 2023 at 6:03:00 PM.
Jeff, it’s late, and I have someone waiting for me; I hope to get back to you soon with much more to say and links to provide.
To close tonight, I offer:
Colossians 2:16-18:
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or celebrate a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
John 8:12
Jesus spoke, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
In our bright, colorful Christmas, we celebrate not the shadows, not dark paganism, but the true Light of the World!
All that no Christmas, no Easter, no birthdays, etc. crap was yet another shameless pet doctrine steal by Herbie from JW Watchtower, Inc- consider the source!
Trooista wrote:
"Encyclopedia Britanica (definitely riddled with junk history)."
No source of information is perfect, but many sources rated Brittanica as having high credibility. That is compared to Wikipedia, having medium credibility and is sometimes inaccurate with a left-leaning bias.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/encyclopedia-britannica/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2015/01/20/wikipedia-or-encyclopaedia-britannica-which-has-more-bias/?sh=4b51a5517d4a
As humans, we tend to choose information that agrees with us and discount information that disagrees with us. That is what you and I might be doing. I know my bias, so I take extra precautions to avoid doing this. Am I perfect? No. But I must admit my bias when discussing issues and work to prevent cherry-picking information that only agrees with my premise. That is why I personally have changed my positions on many topics when better information is available.
"Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established." Proverbs 15:22
"Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety." Proverbs 11:14
So it is wise to look to many counselors when examing a subject. Or examine overwhelming evidence. For example, many have turned man-made climate change into a political issue. That is unwise. I am not an expert on climate, but I can look at what the experts say. Nearly 100 percent of climate scientists say that global warming is caused by human activity (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0270467619886266). I can look at the hard evidence and see the rise in temperatures. It is a reasonably safe position to accept the experts with my own verification ( I have some scientific training).
If someone disagrees with me, I don't vilify them; I just discuss the facts that are known to me.
It is the same when discussing the Bible. I am not trying to vilify people who disagree, just to point them to the facts. And it has been more beneficial to teach critical thinking skills rather than telling people what to believe. So if the consensus among most scholars is that Christmas has pagan origins, it is safe for me to accept. And that consensus agrees with facts presented in historical documents. I am not calling you or others Pagan. You are not celebrating for those reasons. I don't think of myself as a Pagan because I wear a wedding band, celebrate birthdays, use a Roman calendar, etc. But I cannot intellectually deny those Pagan origins as well.
Trooista wrote,
"Then you, who claims others use strawman agreement against you, have the signature Armstrongite lack of awareness to write: "Why is ok to appropriate pagan practices but just so awful for a Christian to keep a Biblical holy day?" Well, Ronco covered the response aptly on"
I say that because you ask me things like "CGI forgoes the commanded tree decorations, what rationale is employed to suppress this part of God's instruction?" You are applying scrutiny to our observations, implying we are legalist hypocrites because of our practices.
You also use mocking language such as "I'm likely to be near a CGI Florida FOT site around Feast time, perhaps I'll stop in for a traditional Christmas carol and help you with your tree deco; I'm excited to experience CGI Christmas!" If I am misinterpreting, please let me know. But it is hard to tell because you routinely resort to name-calling, attacking people, and implying motives rather than discussing ideas or behavior.
Your discourse appears typical of what we find in our country in politics. Politicians now only endorse their party's beliefs and label everyone else as evil. They engage in name-calling rather than debating ideas. Look at the utterly different coverage between CNN and Fox News about the Trump indictments. I believe there is a better way to communicate. And when there appear to be only two sides, there can be another third option in understanding. Please show me some grace in our conversation if you truly believe in it. I will do the same.
Jeff: I’m saddened that you so glibly break the tree decorating command God gave in Leviticus 23:40.
You provided this photo of rebellion as an example of CGI adherence to how God demands that the FOT to be kept: https://www.cgiatlanta.org/picture
All I see is small palms, hardly tree specimens, and some flowers – you are totally forsaking the command to decorate with willows and other leafy trees!
By what authority and reason do you disobey what is written under the direct inspiration of God in Leviticus 23:40?
It’s interesting that you chose to incorporate the palm, the one tree that has been decidedly used in pagan harvest festivals across many cultures and throughout time.
I’m afraid that Saturnalia may be the real source behind the COG-style FOT, since Saturnalia is and end of harvest celebration that was originally held in October, before the Romans decided to make it cozy up to Christmas. Saturnalia included waving palm fronds, throwing flowers, lots of drunkenness, and orgies – which I’ve read is also the norm at COG FOTs. And there’s also the food-feasting, gift-giving, and singing of pagan songs (Joy to the World) that both your FOT and Saturnalia share.
In light of the photo and comments you’ve presented, I cannot see how CGI is anything but a rebellious counterfeit religion. You seem to be oblivious to the contradictions in your beliefs and practices!
Okay, I will try (but no promises, for I’m weak and the opportunities are so abundant) to make that the last time I “mock” you. When you aren’t tuff enough to take the same as you dish, the fun and the point of it rapidly dissipate.
Relax Jeff, you seemed to really be worried that I will actually show my pretty face at your FOT to sing Christmas songs and decorate trees with you – since you’ve mentioned this twice.
You wrote:
You also use mocking language such as "I'm likely to be near a CGI Florida FOT site around Feast time, perhaps I'll stop in for a traditional Christmas carol and help you with your tree deco; I'm excited to experience CGI Christmas!"
I promise you that you can enjoy your celebration in peace, for I’m only teasing you.
Although I am regularly in the neighborhood of COG Feast Sites, I have never once wanted to drop in.
I guess I am a troll since I do enjoy confronting Armstrongites on this blog but don’t want to do it in person. On a blog, the confronted Armstrongite can participate in the confrontation at their will, or opt out, at their will. I could not see myself wasting time to go to a FOT site; that would take away too much primo time from other pursuits, whereas posting on this blog can happen between important events – posting mostly as I’m falling asleep or quasi-awake at odd hours because I cannot sleep.
I do believe that Armstrongites, and you, like to confront others but have a very low tolerance for, and exhibit prickly sensitivities, when others confront them – that is the one hundred percent rule, based on my many experiences.
I do enjoy and respect those who can slug out differences of opinion without getting their feelings hurt. Really, my opinions should have no power to hurt you. I am a bit disappointed, but not surprised that you have a low tolerance for being called out. But what do you expect on an anti-Armstrongite blog?
Focusing on these words you wrote:
“But it is hard to tell because you routinely resort to name-calling, attacking people, and implying motives rather than discussing ideas or behavior.”
I understand that you don’t like being called an Armstrongite – yet you have no insight into how you calling others pagans, is an insult and an attack. I should act more in the awareness that most people who can dish it, cannot take it. I only wanted to raise your awareness of your insulting behavior and double standard. I have the means for processing insulting opinions and therefore do not feel personally insulted. But, if you were to grow in awareness of how your behavior is insulting, you are the winner, and all I gain is a smile.
You also wrote:
“Please show me some grace in our conversation if you truly believe in it. I will do the same.”
Jeff, I realize now that it’s futile to encourage you to grow beyond your current mindset by pointing out how inconsistent and hypocritic your belief system appears to me. I have been praying for you to be granted growth in grace and knowledge and I should leave it at that.
Trooista said:
"I guess I am a troll"
That explains a lot. Thanks for your honesty.
Trooista said:
" yet you have no insight into how you calling others pagans is an insult and an attack. I should act more in the awareness that most people who can dish it, cannot take it."
Yes, I do not think that pointing out that something originated from a pagan source is an insult or an attack. That is how you perceive the information. If the pagan origins of Christmas make you uncomfortable, then that is something you need to consider. That is not my intent. You are stereotyping me by assigning a nefarious motive.
I learned a few valuable lessons during the period I did a Friday webcast with Wes White. One was when discussing controversial ideas in a public forum, it is best to never assign motives or call individuals names. That can be very subjective. It is better to discuss behavior and ideas. That is a more objective way to address an issue. I am grateful to Wes for teaching me that professional trait.
So when Marc Cebrian, Mike James, and I discussed David Pack and the Restored Church of God on Prove All Things, we did not make personal attacks or assign motives. We addressed the issues of the dangerous, crazy prophetic predictions. It would have been easy to call names or assign motives, but I like to retain credibility when discussing a topic.
For example, Trooista, you use the term "Pervie Herb." I would prefer to discuss evidence of perverted behavior. Evidence is far more powerful. I watched some of the discussion from Dan Rogers posted here recently about the biography of HWA. I have never read it, so I assume his statements were accurate. I was appalled by the self-described behavior of HWA regarding neglecting His family. As a father, I find that described behavior appalling and definitively non-Christian.
Trooista asked:
"By what authority and reason do you disobey what is written under the direct inspiration of God in Leviticus 23:40?"
You are taking the position of a legalist of, which I am not. The spirit of the law is just to decorate with local flora to celebrate and that is what we do.
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