When believers read about dreams in the Hebrew scriptures, they realize that God has actually used them.
But, some in the various COGs have commented that they do not care to know about dreams in this century.
Do dreams and prophets have any place in the Christian Church today?
Did any dreams precede the start of the old Radio Church of God? What about the Continuing Church of God (which did not officially form as a declared entity until December 28, 2012)?
I had a couple of dreams prior to the start of the Continuing Church of God, and also someone I did not know, who lived in New Zealand, had one prior to that start as well.
Though many discount all dreams, many also forget that Herbert W. Armstrong believed that his wife Loma D. Armstrong had a dream from God, although it took him some years to accept the validity of it:
Within 30 or 60 days after our marriage God spoke to my wife in what might have been an intense unusual dream, or a vision — but it was years later before we came to realize that this really was a message from God. (Armstrong HW. Brethren and Co-worker letter, November 28, 1956)One night my wife had a dream so vivid and impressive it overwhelmed and shook her tremendously. It was so realistic it seemed more like a vision. For two or three days afterward everything else seemed unreal — as if in a daze — and only this extraordinary dream seemed real.In her dream she and I were crossing the wide intersection, only a block or two from our apartment, where Broadway diagonally crosses Sheridan Road. Suddenly there appeared an awesome sight in the sky above. It was a dazzling spectacle — the sky filled with a gigantic solid mass of brilliant stars, shaped like a huge banner. The stars began to quiver and separate, finally vanishing. She called my attention to the vanishing stars, when another huge grouping of flashing stars appeared, then quivering, separating, and vanishing like the first.As she and I, in her dream, looked upward at the vanishing stars, three large white birds suddenly appeared in the sky between us and the vanishing stars. These great white birds flew directly toward us. As they descended nearer, she perceived that they were angels.“Then,” my wife wrote a day or two after the dream, in a letter to my mother which I have just run across among old family pictures, “it dawned on me that Christ was coming, and I was so happy I was just crying for joy. Then suddenly I thought of Herbert and was rather worried.”She knew I had evidenced very little religious interest, although we had attended a corner church two or three times.Then it seemed that, from among these angels in her dream, that, “Christ descended from among them and stood directly in front of us.At first I was a little doubtful and afraid of how He would receive us, because I remembered we had neglected our Bible study and had our minds too much on things apart from His interests. But as we went up to Him, He put His arms around both of us, and we were so happy! I thought people all over the world had seen Him come. As far as we could see, people were just swarming into the streets at this broad intersection. Some were glad and some were afraid.“Then it seemed He had changed into an angel. I was terribly disappointed at first, until he told me Christ was really coming in a very short time.”At that time, we had been going quite regularly to motion – picture theatres. She asked the angel if this were wrong. He replied Christ had important work for us to do, preparing for His coming — there would be no time for “movies .” (Those were the days of the “silent” pictures.) Then the angel and the whole spectacle seemed to vanish, and she awakened, shaken and wondering!In the morning, she told me of her dream. I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to think about it, yet I was afraid to totally dismiss it. I thought of a logical way to evade it myself, and still solve it. …Do not hastily ascribe a dream to God. True, the Bible shows that God has spoken to His own chosen servants by this means of communication — primarily in the Old Testament, and before the writing of the Bible was completed. But most dreams mean nothing. And false prophets have misled people by telling false dreams, representing their dreams to be the Word of God (Jeremiah 23, where God says, “I am against prophets who recount lying dreams, leading my people astray with their lies and their empty pretensions, though I never sent them, never commissioned them” — verse 32, Moffatt translation).Certainly I did not ascribe this dream to God. It made me feel a little uncomfortable at the time, and I was anxious to forget it — which I did for some years. I was twenty – five at the time. God left me to my own ways for five more years. But when I was age thirty, He began to deal with me in no uncertain terms… (The Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong, 1973, pp. 187,193-194).
Loma and Herbert W. Armstrong were married in 1917. They were specifically told that they would have a work to do. Furthermore, the bright lights in the dream may have had to do with doing a work (cf. Matthew 5:16)–a work that seemed to vanish and return (flash).
Thus, there was a dream from God given to a woman in the 20th century that preceded the start of the old Radio Church of God that Herbert W. Armstrong led. The Radio Church of God represented the start of the Philadelphia era and the Philadelphian work–a work that is not finished (cf. Matthew 24:14-15)–and Herbert W. Armstrong claimed that a dream given to his wife was from God, prior to the start of the Philadelphia era.
Who knew the crackpot prophet from Grover Beach/Arroyo Grande was the "work that is not finished". See, I told you it just gets nuttier and nuttier!
Now, consider that since the Philadelphia era was raised up after Loma Armstrong’s dream, a question to ponder is, would God do anything similar to point to the continuation of the end-time COG remnant of the Philadelphians?
Consider that in Loma Armstrong’s dream that there were two sets of flashing stars–there were two parts to the dream. Herbert W. Armstrong is now dead and there was a pause between the work God had him to do and the completion of the final phase of the work to finally fulfill Matthew 24:14 (cf. Isaiah 29:14).
Herbert W. Armstrong mentioned the dream from time to time publicly, here are two nearly identical accounts:
I’m usually pretty skeptical about God speaking to anyone today in visions or dreams. God speaks to us thru His Son, Jesus Christ — the WORD of God — and the Bible is the written Word. I didn’t really believe it then, 38 years ago, but subsequent events have verified that God did speak to my wife at that time, shortly after we were married, revealing thru an angel that He was calling us to the mission of WARNING the world of the fast-approaching END OF THIS WORLD, the Coming of Jesus Christ, and the world-ruling Kingdom of God. At the time I was unconverted, not bothering to attend church, interested only in business and making money. I was embarrassed — a little awed — but immediately tried to put it out of my mind. But at age 30 God took away my business, struck me down, took away my idol of money-making and business prestige. (Armstrong HW. Co-worker letter, November 25, 1955)
I’m usually pretty skeptical about God speaking to anyone today in visions or dreams. God speaks to us thru His Son, Jesus Christ — the WORD of God — and the Bible is the written Word. I didn’t really believe it then, 38 years ago, but subsequent events have verified that God did speak to my wife at that time, shortly after we were married, revealing thru an angel in a vision that He was calling us to the mission of WARNING the world of the fast- approaching END OF THIS WORLD, the coming of Jesus Christ, and the world-ruling Kingdom of God. At that time I was unconverted, not bothering to attend church, interested only in business and making money. I was embarrassed — a little awed — but immediately tried to put it out of my mind. But at age 30 God took away my business, struck me down, took away my idol of money-making and business prestige. (Armstrong HW. Co-worker letter, February 21, 1956)
Notice that the dream was to go until the end of the world and the coming of Jesus–since Herbert W. Armstrong has been dead since January 16, 1986–if the dream was from God then, does it not make sense that the second half of the dream would be fulfilled by another? Like in the 21st century? We in the Continuing Church of God are fulfilling that second part of the stars.
The bullshit just keeps piling up:
Perhaps it should be mentioned, Herbert W. Armstrong had more information about what I am referring to as the first set of stars in the dream. He wrote:
It was a dazzling spectacle … People by the hundreds came running into this broad intersection looking up to see the strange phenomena … A vast multitude of eyes were upon us … I have only come to believe that this dream was a bonafide call from God in the light of subsequent events. (Armstrong HW. The Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong, 9th installment. Plain Truth, August 1958, p. 18).
Eyes of a vast multitude suggest that the dream was saying, that the work to be done was to have a witness to many. This happened with the old Radio and Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong’s leadership in the 20th century. The second set of stars in the dream, which he did not mention in the August 1958 Plain Truth, article, but did in his published Autobiography, may pertain to what I have called, for years, The Final Phase of the Work. But even if it had applicability to the ministry of Herbert W. Armstrong only, the dream, which shortly before his death he confirmed he believed was from God (per Aaron Dean, who I discussed this with on October 30, 2015), shows that one did precede the Church of God work he was involved in.
Consider that Herbert W. Armstrong concluded that his wife Loma’s dream was from God. He also believed the first part of it had to do with the start of the Philadelphia era of the Church of God via the Radio Church of God. He did not discuss the fulfillment of the second part of the dream directly, however he taught another work would be done.
Consider that since Herbert W. Armstrong did not teach that the second part of his wife Loma’s dream was fulfilled and that he also taught a greater work was going to happen after his death. It is greater because it will fulfill Matthew 24:14, etc. That is the work that we in the ContinuingChurch of God are leading (see The Final Phase of the Work and Preparing for the ‘Short Work’ and The Famine of the Word). It appears that the second part of Loma D. Armstrong’s dream was pointing to the Continuing Church of God–the group that best represents the remnant of the Philadelphian portion of the Church of God. As far as radio and new doors in television and other media, check out the CCOG Multimedia page.
Bob Thiel and his little group are NOT a second work and are not here to complete any "work" that Herbert never finished. These are just more self-aggrandizing lies that Bob continues to tell in order to legitimize his apostate ministry.
The Armstrongist god has to be the weakest god that anyone could invent. Why would a supreme God need some self-appointed fool from the middle of California to redeem humankind with some kind of final work? That's a direct spit in the face to the hundreds of millions of Christians down through the ages who have lived and died in faith.
Imagine the Christians currently being slaughtered in Nigeria who, if only they were in the right church, their deaths would not be in vain. After all, they are only so-called Christians.
These very simple words from Romans condemn the lying false prophet masquerading as an agent of truth:
"For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites" Romans 16:18
The comment made the other day from a reader here perfectly describes Bob Thiel and his insatiable appetite for attention:
Bob isn't a COG minister. He's a COG layman who worships COG ministry, and who deeply resents the fact that no COG minister would ordain him into that ministry, so he has invented Gaylon Bonjour's mythical double-blessing and has filled his brain with delusions and dreams of prophethood. His responses are pathetic, but they aren't saddening, they are infuriating, as he seeks to ruin other people's lives by turning them away from Jesus and toward Bob.
22 comments:
there would be no time for “movies .”
Yet the old WCG produced "Festival Films" for several years - not to mention showing The Man from Snowy River during Feasts in Big Sandy (maybe other sites, too).
So was that dream in error, somehow?
''...revealing thru an angel that He was calling us to the mission of WARNING the world of the fast-approaching END OF THIS WORLD, the Coming of Jesus Christ, and the world-ruling Kingdom of God. ''
Events, passage of time, the fruits of this 'mission' all add up and demonstrate the statement to be completely false. This mission/work/warning messenger/ had no function whatsoever from God to warn of anything.
R L @ 1:32:58 PM PST
Your comments brought back many memories of the ‘Feast’. I admit I enjoyed watching the ‘Behind the Work’ films. I, as well as many others, felt we were part of something big and meaningful, for ourselves and the world as a whole. Looking back, who would have thought that the whole edifice would collapse and disappear except for a few, very few dwindling outposts? How times change. As to Bob Thiel and his proclamations, dreams, I recall scripture telling us ‘vanity all is vanity’. And so it is.
I was at the intersection of Broadway and Sheridan here in Portland and saw red, yellow and green lights above the intersection toođ
As we've learned from the Book of Daniel, to "interpret" a dream is no big thing. What distinguishes a true prophet is that he can TELL YOU what you dreamed, and THEN tell you its interpretation. Bob, I know you are reading this. So, if you will tell me what I dreamed last night, and then tell me what it means, I will sell all I have and follow you. Unfortunately, you can't do that. Deep down, you KNOW you are a fraud and have backed yourself into a corner from which you cannot escape without losing face. God isn't speaking to you. Sweet little old ladies and not-so-sweet witch doctors are fueling your delusions. You could be a hero to thousands and thousands if you admitted that you had been misled by Armstrong and sucked into his delusional system. Or you can persist in your sham and die a sad and lonely little man who has traded a glorious eternity of truth and beauty for an ugly mess of fake-prophetic pottage. Your choice.
3:42:34 PM PST
Many believers had good motivations , expecting the return of Jesus and an end to world problems. Their sincerity wasn't returned by the Armstrong system that cared nought for them really - only himself and his concocted 'work'. It could not last in any event and, at the end of the day, collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions and outright lies. Such is a fitting end.
A dream is the sort of standard, unremarkable thing that cult leaders use. If something is totally unverifiable; you just have to accept their word for it. And, they invoke the Holy Spirit in the process. If you do take their word for it, they tell you that it is because the Holy Spirit is guiding you, and there are people who would not only see that as the ultimate compliment, but they would also enthusiastically accept it as an equal substitute for validation.
Now, here's the rub. Power and size aways come into play. That's the real "A" on a cult leader's report card! It enhances credibility. The greater the powers of persuasion of the cult leader happen to be, the larger the group of followers he attracts. These cretins realize that and do all manner of things with their numbers, things which are once again often not only unverifiable, but also disingenuous. This is where the money comes in, and the size of the empire. The problem for wannabe cult leaders is that that is the one aspect which often provides the highest degree of verification. People derive reassurance from being part of a growing snowball. However, the idea of getting in on the bottom floor has limited shelf life if the snowball isn't packing. (Notice the skillful usage of a triple mixed metaphor!) A growing organism is a living organism. Your hypothetical beatnik from the 1960s would describe the little remnants of the Armstrong empire who claim all this inspiration, growth, and divine guidance as being "nowheresville". There are personal Bible study groups meeting in proples' homes that are larger than some groups claiming to be the lone Philadelphian remnant!
It's been said that if you want to be successful and happy in your career, you should find a way to turn your hobby into your calling in life. Not a bad idea. The problem is that not everyone is able to do that. Some hobbies are simply unattractive, and unacceptable.. They just don't pop!
BB
He is obviously demented. We should pity him and pay no attention to him.
Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of his good store of treasure, and the evil man brings evil things out of his evil store of treasure. But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.
Little Bobby Thiel said, “He (referring to HWA) did not discuss the fulfillment of the second part of the dream directly, however he taught another work would be done”.
MY COMMENT – This statement by Thiel is an outright lie as anyone who had any experience in the R/WCG before the failed 1972/1975 prophecy knows. I left in 1976, so I cannot speak to what HWA said after that time. I seriously doubt HWA’s prophetic view ever changed (other than timing after the 1972/1975 disappointment).
Herbert W, Armstrong taught (and I still have my Sabbath Services notes books with direct HWA quotes):
• Philadelphia era began during the first week of 1934 when the broadcast went on Oregon station KORE;
• Armstrong taught 19-year time cycles that coincided with the broadcast going on the air in 1934;
• The first week of January, 1953, 19 years later, the broadcast went to Europe;
• In the years leading up to the end of the second 19-year time cycle, it was boldly preached from WCG pulpits that the great tribulation would begin during the first week of January, 1972. There was even a booklet published by the Radio Church of God entitled,“1972 in Prophecy”.
• The German attack on America was to commence during the first week of January, 1972. R/WCG taught the Philadelphians would go to a Place of Safety (Petra) and the Laodiceans would be left in America to be tried by fire in German captivity. Reference Matthew 24:40-41. My notes I wrote in my bible says “only one is taken to a place of safety”. This verse is followed by the Parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. In both cases, half the Church is taken to a Place of Safety while the foolish virgins were not.
• As late as October, 1970, HWA said at Mt. Pocono Feast of Tabernacles quoting my notes, “Our work could end in the first week of 1972”
• As a sixteen year old teenager, I have memories of looking out of my family’s Laurel, Maryland home every night during the first week of January, 1972 to see if I could see if the Germans were attacking the United Staes, and to find out if I and my family were being taken with the Philadelphians to a place of safety or left in Germain captivity with the Laodiceans.
HWA DID DISCUSS the fulfillment of the second part of the dream directly. However, it is NOT the work of a Philadelphian remnant as Bobby Thiel claims. HWA NEVER preached that there would be a “Philadelphian remnant in the Laodicean era”. After 1976, my family members who remained in Armstrongism would have told me. HWA taught that while the Philadelphians were in a Place of Safety, the Laodiceans would also have a work even while in German captivity tried by fire. Even in captivity, Laodiceans could qualify to enter God’s kingdom if they repented. This was the fulfillment of the second part of Loma’s dream which HWA taught – the “Laodicean work”, not the “Philadelphian remnant in the Laodicean era”.
I will not allow little Bobby Thiel to re-write Worldwide Church of God history, and outright lie about what HWA taught. MY FAMILY AND I PAID a hell of a price in many ways other than (but including) financially, for this history.
Personally, I find HWA wannabe little Bobby Thiel to be delusional – a little brat throwing a temper tantrum cryingly screaming “I’m a prophet! I’m a PROPHET!! I AM A PROPHET!!! Waa, boo Hoo, Waa! He should focus on developing his animated character morphing himself into Cartoon Bob which he claims God gave animation to his CCOG.
I publicly challenge little Bobby Thiel to rebut me here on Banned by HWA and produce your evidence to back your statement.
Richard
But the thing is that Bob is representative of many, if not most ACOG ministers.
He only differs in that he sticks his head up, while the others lay low.
Lomas dream was set in Chicago.
Trivia, but in Lomas own letter to her mother about said dream, she described Christ as changing into a "young woman", not an angel. Herb left that out for some reason.
Trivia, but in Loma's own letter to her mother about said dream, she described Christ as changing into a "young woman", not an angel.
The Shakers believe that Christ appeared as a young woman, Ann Lee. How differently things might have turned out for Loma (and her husband) if she had been made aware of the Shakers after having that dream!
Self-correcting my last comment, the Booklet was "1975 in Prophecy", not "1972 in Prophecy". The point is Herbert Armstrong acknowledged the Laodicean era was also God's Church. Their Work was to be 3 1/2 years during the Great Tribulation while the Philadelphians were in a Place of Safety. The two Loma Armstrong dream starbursts were the two final eras of God's Church - Philadelphia and Laodicean. I am just regurgitating what HWA actually taught.
Of course, NOTHING HWA preached has turned out to happen the way he said it would happen. I never dreamed in the 1960s/1970s that I would be here on this earth in this present age in the year 2025. The term "False minister" comes to mind.
Richard
Transgenderism?!
There is no evidence that Loma actually ever had such a dream. One has to take it on faith in Loma and Herb. Faith in people is foolish and anti-biblical.
Dr. MLK Jr. accomplished so much more with HIS dream! Right now I am binge-watching the most awesome TV show I've seen in years. It's a rebop of The Equalizer, starring Queen Latifah in the lead role! Very educational! Everyone needs to see this!
Well, I'm kind of gestalting what you just presented, Richard, with what's been going on with Bob Thiel, and I believe you are right. Per HWA, the second act can't take place until the Laodicean era comes into its own. So, if Bob, as a prophet, "knows" that he's the second act, it must still be a mystery to him why his work is failing miserably to gain any traction. It's not yet his time! Once the Philadelphian era flees, all of the Laodiceans who were left behind will turn to Bob and realize that he is indeed their prophet and leader in getting the work done! The fact that he currently believes he is the true leader of the Philadelphia remnant means that (in the immortal cliche coined by Dave Pack) "God has not allowed us to understand our role in prophecy completely and correctly."
Ah, just messin' with him. (We know he laps up every word ever posted on Banned). Everyone here knows I don't believe in church eras, anyway, or that God ever had anything to do with Armstrongism.
BB
Garner Ted, inspite of all his faults, repeatedly dismissed his dad's autobiography as a work of fiction. I heard him quite a few times, in sermons dissmiss it. It seemed a joke in certain quarters.
Well, if the young woman Loma describes was still Christ, yes, but her letter suggests no, different person entirely lol.
Well I am in for this. Come on, "prophet", bring your little scrawny ass.
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