Concerning Herbert Armstrong

There have been a lot of comments regarding the influence of HWA based on a posting by Church of God the Eternal - which stated a position concerning Herbert Armstrong that has not been, so much as we know, admitted or even alluded to by any Armstrong Church of God until now.Of course, this raises banter which ranges from why we are even talking about HWA from nearly every angle of position, it seems. 

Comments regarding the influence of HWA include this:  

How could the church have ever expected fruit from these visits when Herbert was too embarrassed to talk about Jesus. “A strong hand from someplace” is a crock of steaming bullshit. All Herbert was ever concerned with was the publicity and the photo ops, it certainly was never witinissing (sic) about Christ. What witness was it to help build The Globe Theatre in London or the Reagan Library with tithe money? Even Prince Charles found him embarrassing.

And this:

Tonto is right! The church dropped millions of dollars on AICF that never broke even. Performers were wined and dined with the finest of foods and Dom Perigon champagne. None of them and none of the public ever joined the church because of AICF. In fact, I saw them many times standing in the student center mocking the booklets on display. It was all about shedding the "cult" label and trying to look charitable and mainstream.

And then, we have NCK, who states: (Spelling errors highlighted)

What utter nonsense by tbe uneducated. Some of the distuctions hwa was awarded with are not for sale.

I spent many postings explaining who gave them and for what reasons. And still you come up with a crappy posting by somw splinter of whom non ever engaged with real people of consequence. I will resume my poatings on the handover of okinawa, the american king of thailand, the britiah king of jordan, the anerican 5 block embassy in tiny neoal, marcos investmwnts in new york, ambassador college on the swiss italian border next to the cia predecessor. etc etc etc You utter inconsequential ninkompoops.

The american emissaries thanking hwa for the Syria mari digs as they reflected well on the american people in a russian sphere of influence.

Japanese diplomacy and foreign investment in East Africa, Israel, South America,american covert support for the apartheid systen to keep South Africa in the Western Fold, worldwide sponsoring ig operating costs for cia radio stations programming western news and promoting western culture.

And I am not even starting.

You are so incredibly ignorant.

NCK professes to be a very wealthy, educated lawyer. One thing lawyers are trained to focus on specifically is attention to detail, of which there clearly was none with the above post. I am assuming Distuction meant distinction, don't know of a SOMW splinter, never heard of a poating before, am absolutely positive that at least countries would be capitalized properly as well as acronyms, and not sure what a ninkompoop is. But I do know what a nincompoop is, which is what this post looks like a bunch of because it is so poorly formatted. If this was an anger post, the hurried typing is unbecoming of a professional lawyer. 

Secondly, NCK accuses Gary (and others here, I'm sure) of being uneducated and ignorant, and nonsense. That in itself is ridiculous, as Gary was right there in the midst of it all and probably knows things you had no idea on. But all of this is neither here nor there because your posting (as horrible as it is) proves the point I have been trying to make. 

It does not matter if the claims of some of the commenters here regarding the wasteful spending (it was), ego-driven world travelling tour (it was), and extravagant spending (there was a lot of that) were true, OR if NCK's claims have any merit at all. In fact, let's just take a moment to imagine that NCK's claims are in fact, factual.

Let's imagine that HWA was deeply influential in the state of World Affairs, deeply entrenched in some sort of governmental operations on a global scale. Let's imagine his claims are even half-way accurate. What then would this prove? 

Remember what was preached by HWA. He told his people to "Come out of this world", and to be "set apart" from the world. If - and let's just say if - what NCK says is true - then all that would prove is that not only was HWA IN the world, purely caught up BY the world, but in fact, WAS the very world that he convinced everyone in the Church he was against. In fact, IF NCK's claims were true as he alleges, then not only would he BE the world, he would be everything he taught against - the very definition of the wickedness he claims to have been called to be the End-Time Apostle to actually end wickedness, setting up the return of Jesus Christ where he would reign under Christ. 

So, let's then get this state from a religious standpoint, not a worldly standpoint. Here we have a man who actually was, according to NCK, some sort of world operative deeply entrenched in world affairs. If true, he was NOT an Apostle, a complete and total religious fraud, and a first-class deceiver. If true, then this would prove that everything that happened was absolute nonsense in a religious standpoint. It would verify that he was always a businessman only - but even further then a businessman - a thoroughly entrenched figure in the world he condemned so thoroughly and rigidly. 

No matter how you look at it, in the eyes of those of us who were a part of the Fundraising Arm (the Church) who compile all angles of evidence (including NCK's), there are certain things that cannot be disputed any way you look. 

1. Herbert Armstrong was a businessman, first and foremost. He admitted to this many times in the Autobiography, in letters, and in writings all throughout his life. This is what he was. 

2. Herbert Armstrong was of the world. His attitude, demeanor, rage, temper, focus, and fruits verify this time and time again. Whether or not you believe the majority of the commentators here or NCK - Herbert Armstrong was worldly. 

3. Herbert Armstrong's god was prestige, fame, fortune, and money. Regardless of how you spin it - or how you attempt to figure out his life from whichever angle you attempt to go down - this was his legacy - to build up an empire for himself. 

Now, back to the religious standpoint which is what all of this is points to.

Regardless of whether NCK is correct, or Tonto is correct, or all the other commentators are correct - no matter what angle you look at so long as all the facts are considered - the evidence stands that religiously, HWA was completely and absolutely irrelevant in the world religious regime. HWA did nothing to further the Gospel or to proclaim the Gospel in any long-lasting, effective way. Religiously, HWA changed absolutely nothing. HWA, religiously, did not even put a dent in the world empires of Organized Corporate Christianity. HWA did NOT usher in the Return of Jesus Christ. HWA did NOT precede the Great Tribulation. HWA's Worldwide Church of God did NOT take any long-term role of impact in the lives of 99.9% of all of Professing Christianity. HWA's Worldwide Church of God did NOT restore any "Gospel" that had not been preached in 1900 years to any point of international relevance. 

Indeed, from the standpoint of Religion (and not any other perspective), HWA was a complete, absolute, total failure in every sense of the word. HWA was as much of the world as any other Corporate Businessman or CEO. And his Church was as much of the world as any Corporate Business, complete with scandal, intrigue and drama inside and out. For Christians, this is the part that matters - not whether or not HWA was this or that in the worldly sense. What matters to Christians is the spiritual impact of Herbert Armstrong, not the physical. Even so, believe me, as many ex-members can clearly attest to, the physical impact was negatively enormous to those who believed his spiritual claims as a spiritual leader of a spiritual church, so-called. 

Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God was a farce and a scam - no matter how you look at it. Those who perpetrate his farce and scam refuse to look at the realities and are in denial to the realities to this very day - whether it's false prophesies or speculations, fear-mongering, scare-tactics, abuse, dictatorial tactics or autocratic tendencies - the spiritual aspect of the Worldwide Church of God was fully and completely dead, fueled by a worldly conceit, a worldly passion of success, a worldly ego and an inability to believe evidentiary truth in favor of his own delusional truth. This is the Herbert Armstrong that ex-members look at. This is the Herbert Armstrong legacy that we all remember. 

Whether or not he was this or that in the worldly scene? That is neither here, nor is it there. Because what he claimed to be - spiritually and religiously - is not who he was. And that is the Herbert Armstrong that we as ex-members trusted, believed we knew, and supported with our livelihoods.  What he was was a liar, narcissistic scam artist and first-class con who was out to make something great of himself - and to hell with anyone who dared get in his way of his self-centered vision to Make Himself Great. And this is what Herbert Armstrong was all about - himself.

submitted by SHT

Was visiting world leaders one of the most ineffectual things HWA ever did?

The strong hand from someplace 

Church of God the Eternal has admitted one thing about Herbert Armstrong's trips to world leaders that I have never seen other COG's admit. This will sure frost the butts of certain self-appointed "men" who salivate at the mear mention of HWA's name.

From 1968 to the mid-1980s, did those national leaders receive a bone-chilling warning about the imminent return of Christ, with His new government soon to dethrone those current kings, presidents, and prime ministers? Did Mr. Armstrong speak to them the way Elijah spoke to King Ahab, and as John the Baptist spoke to King Herod? Was the entire world warned with mighty signs and miracles about their national sins and the need for repentance? Has there even yet been the kind of “witness” comparable to that which God prophesied will occur before the arrival of His Son? No such warning message was ever proclaimed by Mr. Armstrong to kings, and we have not even yet seen the fulfilment of that prophecy of a true warning Work. Instead, with Mr Armstrong’s visits to heads-of-state, diplomacy was the order of the day, including expensive gifts to dignitaries, and only a very veiled message about Jesus Christ—often without ever using His name! Is that really what we saw from Elijah and from John the Baptist? Is that truly the way we think God is going to make final preparation for Christ’s return?

So again, in evaluating Mr. Armstrong’s very strong and sincere belief in 1968 that God had tasked him with a brand new commission, what do the fruits actually show in hindsight? The nations were not warned as God promised He will do, and Jesus Christ did not return following the conclusion of years of those international state visits. According to Mr. Armstrong’s own standard of proof, this aspect of his work does not pass muster.

Besides warning the world before Christ’s imminent return, visiting heads-of-state was also expected to “open doors” to allow the Worldwide Church of God more access to preach the Gospel to these leaders’ peoples. But God had already opened doors for radio broadcasts and print publications in most of these areas, even without visiting their national leaders (like King Leopold of Belgium). But what about the bonds he forged with leaders in countries like Japan, especially? The hope was that this personal rapport with the Japanese Prime Minister and other officials would “open the door” for eventual church congregations in Japan. But that never happened! There were a whole lot of state banquets and formal meetings with dignitaries across Asia, but those contacts never produced congregations! The one country in that region where the church flourished was in the Philippines (a Catholic country), and that work had been accomplished beginning in the early 1960s, long before visiting world leaders became a goal."

And in every other country where the church had been previously shut out from operating (like most of the Buddhist nations), even after years of hob-knobbing with Buddhist dignitaries, the church mostly was still shut out from forming congregations there! So once again, what were the real fruits? The claim was made repeatedly that this activity would “open doors.” But the Gospel of Jesus Christ was never really preached there, and the church did not gain any significant foothold because of those meetings. No fruits!

Is Herbert Armstrong Necessary For Salvation?

According to the Kitchen's, Yes!

If you go to God in prayer and Bible Study, and fasting, you can have a relationship with God! What Mr. Armstrong taught will bring you closer to Christ and God the Father, feeding you the spiritual ministering we all need as begotten children of God. His preaching and ministering will strengthen your Bible Studies, and your relationship with God! It will not weaken it.

Now, we can have a relationship with God without knowing of Herbert W Armstrong, but once the knowledge comes into our mind and God reveals to us that He did indeed send forth and anointed a man to proclaim His message and to minister unto us His Words, we are compelled to obey God amd what He says in His Word concerning this. If we deny the man whom God sends, we deny the God who sent Him, and are in fact rejecting the very Word of God because God's Word has much to say about how we should obey the servant of God.
Read Hosea 4:6.

Sp what we are in fact saying, is that you can be strengthened and flourishing spiritually, MORE WITH Herbert W Armstrong than without him. We are talling about the next step in conversion, and how we are to qualify to marry Jesus Christ and rule forever in the Kingdom of God!

There are wolves seeking to keep you from that next step, and working feverishly to remove any mention of Herbert W Armstrong, the apostle of Christ in our time, all in order to destroy your spiritually. They call it man worship, but they really want your support, and do not want you to do the right thing and support Christ's apostlr. Read 3 John about diotrephes.