Sometimes, perhaps, and even here on Banned, it is good to pause and rise a bit higher than just sharing experiences or offering opinions about the pain, hurt, anger and not wishing the still abusive, self absorbed, theologically challenged and plainly unstable leadership of the remaining Splits, Splinters and Sliver Churches of God well in their abusive and ignorant fake ministries.
Everyone that visits Banned has a story and it is not a happy one. Banned provides an outlet for moving along in the process of recovery and learning what it is that we wish we had known or done when we didn't know it or what to do. Banned also provides a safe place for those still rather trapped in their splinter to get a perspective on their church and its leadership they certainly aren't going to get in Sabbath Services with the hope that they can exit in their own time and for their own good reasons. There are even a few zealots who come to banned to chide us for everything from a lack of faith to lying about what really is in the splinters. So be it...
As well, the utter theological stupidity of most of the splinter leadership need be continually exposed because these untrained "Mere Bible Readers" as I choose to call them, are not only ridiculous in their teachings but dangerous in their personalities.
As well, the utter theological stupidity of most of the splinter leadership need be continually exposed because these untrained "Mere Bible Readers" as I choose to call them, are not only ridiculous in their teachings but dangerous in their personalities.
But at the end of the day, everyone who comes here, if one is ever going to actually recover from the experience and live a quality life in the actual present , which is all we ever really have, the past and the future being only memories or anxieties in our heads and not real, then forgiving someone for something is probably going have to be part of our experience as well.
Our own quality of life, whether we like it or not, depends on rising to the experience with whatever degree of forgiveness one can muster . Someone once told me when I was in the midst of what I suppose could only be called a personal pity party, "You know, those people are probably out to lunch having a great time and not thinking one bit about you or what they have done." Um....yeah, I know. Somehow it helped me regain the concept of taking care of me and forgetting about them. But that takes skill , determination and understanding how and why forgiveness is not just a way to cope but actually the only real way to keep moving for your own good sake and the sake of those you love and who love you.
So...let me offer to us all the higher thoughts of others than just "they done me wrong" with the hope they can make one's experience here at Banned more mature and positive as we sort through the ashes.
If one feels this is not in keeping with the spirit or intent of Banned, then you'll have to forgive me.
"Let's get one thing straight: Forgiving is not something you do for someone else. It is not even something you do because you SHOULD, according to the standards of religious belief or human decency. Forgiving is something that you do for yourself. It is one way of becoming the person you were created to be--and fulfilling God's dream of you is the only way to true wholeness and happiness. You NEED to forgive so that you can move forward with life. An unforgiven injury binds you to a time and place someone else has chosen; it holds you trapped in a past moment and in old feelings."
Carol Luebering - Finding A Way To Forgive (article, CareNotes)
"You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything...We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it.
Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"When we forgive evil we do not excuse it, we do not tolerate it, we do not smother it.
We look the evil full in the face, call it what it is, let its horror shock and stun and enrage us,
and only then do we forgive it."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive andForget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"The problem with revenge is that it never gets what it wants; it never evens the score. Fairness never comes. The chain reaction set off by every act of vengeance always takes its unhindered course. It ties both the injured and the injurer to an escalator of pain...Why do family feuds go on and on?...the reason is simple: no two people, no two families, ever weigh pain on the same scale."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"The one who pursues revenge should dig two graves."
Allen C. Guelzo - Fear Of Forgiving (article, Christianity Today,
February 8, 1993) Hurts We Don't Deserve
"It is potentially dangerous if pastoral counselors insist on a client's withholding
forgiveness until the other repents. We can easily imagine a devastated client who is
trapped in bitterness or even hatred because of the legalistic requirement
that the other must repent.
The client's psychological well-being is now dependent on the other's response."
George Herbert -
"Sometimes choices are made in the name of forgiveness while what is occurring isn't forgiveness at all. It is important not to confuse being forgiving with denying your own feelings, needs, and desires. Forgiving doesn't mean being passive and staying in a job or a relationship that clearly doesn't work for you or is abusive. It is important that you are clear about your boundaries. What is acceptable for you? If you are willing to allow unacceptable behavior again and again in the name of 'forgiveness,' you are more than likely using 'forgiveness' as an excuse not to take responsibility for taking care of yourself or as a way to avoid making changes."
Robin Casarjian - Forgiveness: A Bold Choice For A Peaceful Heart
None of us wants to admit that we hate someone...When we deny our hate we detour around the crisis of forgiveness. We suppress our spite, make adjustments, and make believe we are too good to be hateful. But the truth is that we do not dare to risk admitting the hate we feel because we do not dare to risk forgiving the person we hate."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"You will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who hurt you
and feel the power to wish them well."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"Their pain [the injurer's pain at having injured you] and your pain create the point and counterpoint for the rhythm of reconciliation. When the beat of their pain is a response to the beat of yours, they have become truthful in their feelings...they have moved a step closer to a truthful reunion."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"...Forgiving is not having to understand. Understanding may come later, in fragments, an insight here and a glimpse there, after forgiving."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"The rule is: we cannot really forgive ourselves unless we look at the failure
in our past and call it by its right name."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"If we say that monsters [people who do terrible evil] are beyond forgiving, we give them a power they should never have...they are given the power to keep their evil alive in the hearts of those who suffered most. We give them power to condemn their victims to live forever with the hurting memory of their painful pasts. We give the monsters the last word."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"With a little time, and a little more insight, we begin to see both ourselves and our enemies in humbler profiles. We are not really as innocent as we felt when we were first hurt. And we do not usually have a gigantic monster to forgive; we have a weak, needy, and somewhat stupid human being. When you see your enemy and yourself in the weakness and silliness of the humanity you share, you will make the miracle of forgiving a little easier."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"We forgive freely or we do not really forgive at all."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"Gandhi was right: if we all live by 'an eye for an eye' the whole world will be blind.
The only way out is forgiveness."
Sidney and Suzanne Simon - Forgiveness: How To Make Peace With Your Past
And Get On With Your Life"
All the years you have waited for them to "make it up to you" and all the energy you expended trying to make them change (or make them pay) kept the old wounds from healing and gave pain from the past free rein to shape and even damage your life. And still they may not have changed. Nothing you have done has made them change. Indeed, they may never change. Inner peace is found by changing yourself, not the people who hurt you. And you change yourself for yourself, for the joy, serenity, peace of mind, understanding, compassion, laughter, and bright future that you get."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"I have discovered that most people who tell me that they cannot forgive a person who wronged them are handicapped by a mistaken understanding of what forgiving is."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"Forgiving is an affair strictly between a victim and a victimizer. Everyone else should step aside...The worst wounds I ever felt were the ones people gave to my children. Wrong my kids, you wrong me. And my hurt qualifies me to forgive you. But only for the pain you caused me when you wounded them. My children alone are qualified to forgive you for what you did to them."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"I am certain that people never forgive because they believe they have an obligation to do it or because someone told them to do it. Forgiveness has to come from inside as a desire of the heart. Wanting to is the steam that pushes the forgiving engine."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"Not even God can make something fair out of what is intrinsically unfair. Only one thing can be done. Something must break through the crust of unfairness and create a chance for a new fairness. Only forgiveness can make the breakthrough."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"I worry about fast forgivers. They tend to forgive quickly in order to avoid their pain. Or they forgive fast in order to get an advantage over the people they forgive. And their instant forgiving only makes things worse...People who have been wronged badly and wounded deeply should give themselves time and space before they forgive...There is a right moment to forgive. We cannot predict it in advance; we can only get ourselves ready for it when it arrives...Don't do it quickly, but don't wait too long...If we wait too long to forgive,
our rage settles in and claims squatter's rights to our souls."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"Spoken forgiving, no matter how heartfelt, works best when we do not demand the response we want. I mean that when we tell people we forgive them, we must leave them free to respond to our good news however they are inclined. If the response is not what we hoped for, we can go home and enjoy our own healing in private."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"Forgiving does not usually happen at once. It is a process, sometimes a long one, especially when it comes to wounds gouged deep. And we must expect some lapses...some people seem to manage to finish off forgiving in one swoop of the heart. But when they do, you can bet they are forgiving flesh wounds. Deeper cuts take more time and can use a second coat."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
"Forgiving does not erase the bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future."
Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds
"Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting...A wounded person cannot--indeed, should not--think that a faded memory can provide an expiation of the past. To forgive, one must remember the past, put it into perspective, and move beyond it. Without remembrance, no wound can be transcended."
Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds"
A [seemingly] unforgivable injury is a profound and irreversible assault on the fundamental belief system of the person who has been injured...It is not the battering but what happens to a battered woman's beliefs as a result of the battering that makes [the injury seemingly so] unforgivable...[the most serious] injuries separate people from the very ideas they once believed were true--beliefs about themselves, the world, other people, good and bad, right and wrong, the future, and even the validity of the history they have shared with the person who hurt them...
The forgiving process is one in which both morality and meaning
are defined and redefined until the world again makes sense [to the person injured]."
Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds
"Forgiveness is a rebirth of hope, a reorganization of thought, and a reconstruction of dreams. Once forgiving begins, dreams can be rebuilt. When forgiving is complete, meaning has been extracted from the worst of experiences and used to create a new set of moral
rules and a new interpretation of life's events."
Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds
"In a way, forgiving is only for the brave. It is for those people who are willing to confront their pain, accept themselves as permanently changed, and make difficult choices. Countless individuals are satisfied to go on resenting and hating people who wrong them. They stew in their own inner poisons and even contaminate those around them. Forgivers, on the other hand, are not content to be stuck in a quagmire. They reject the possibility that the rest of their lives will be determined by the unjust and injurious acts of another person."
Gordon Dalbey - Letter to the Editor, The Christian Century (November 20-7, 1991)
"Vengeance is having a videotape planted in your soul that cannot be turned off. It plays the painful scene over and over again inside your mind...And each time it plays you feel the clap of pain again...Forgiving turns off the videotape of pained memory Forgiving sets you free."
Lewis Smedes - Forgiveness: The Power To Change The Past (article, Christianity Today, January 7, 1983)
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you."
Philip Yancey - The Unnatural Act (article, Christianity Today, April 8, 1991)
"Forgiveness is the only way to break the cycle of blame--and pain--in a relationship...It does not settle all questions of blame and justice and fairness...But it does allow relationships to start over. In that way, said Solzhenitsyn, we differ from all animals. It is not our capacity to think that makes us different, but our capacity to repent, and to forgive."
Old Chinese Proverb -
"Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past, by old grievances that do not permit life to proceed with new business. Not to forgive is to yield oneself to another's control...to be locked into a sequence of act and response, of outrage and revenge, tit for tat, escalating always. The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past. Forgiveness frees the forgiver. It extracts the forgiver from someone else's nightmare."
Carol Luebering - Finding A Way To Forgive (article, CareNotes)
"You can't forgive what you refuse to remember, any more than you can seek treatment for a disease whose symptoms you have yet to notice."
Carol Luebering - Finding A Way To Forgive (article, CareNotes)
"Forgiveness entails the authentic acceptance of our own worthiness as human beings, the understanding that mistakes are opportunities for growth, awareness and the cultivation of compassion, and the realization that the extension of love to ourselves and others is the glue that holds the universe together. Forgiveness...is not a set of behaviors, but an attitude."
Robin Casarjian - Forgiveness: A Bold Choice For A Peaceful Heart
"Sometimes forgiving was easy for me; sometimes forgiving was a very bold choice. Whatever kind of choice it was, it always led me to a more peaceful heart. It always left me happier and free to move on to create healthier relationships with others and with myself."
Robin Casarjian - Forgiveness: A Bold Choice For A Peaceful Heart
"Don't allow your self-forgiveness to be contingent upon somebody else's readiness or willingness to forgive you. They may get something out of holding on to anger that they aren't ready to let go of. They may be too frightened or wounded to let go of their anger. Feeling angry may be an important part of their healing process at this time. Allow others to be where they are. Respect their right to feel the way they feel."
129 comments:
Dennis. Great post healing is a process and what you wrote is important. I have learned a lot from so many who have posted here
Let me try to say in far fewer words what Dennis may have been aiming toward.
Your happiness does not depend on what someone else did to you or is doing to you. The most damaging thing you can do to yourself is to let some abuser have space inside your head. Whether you cut the abuser off, or try to forget about him, the best thing you can do is replace the old sadness with some new joy.
Maybe you are still suffering enough from what the abuser did that you "can't forgive" the person. Fine. Don't be a slave to an unreasonable proposition. If you can't forgive, simply forget. If you are happy and successful now, your abuser did not prevail.
Dwelling on the unhappy past is one of the best ways to remain unhappy. Sure, acknowledge the past and do everything you can to gain legitimate recourse for wrongs that were done to you. But don't define your present in terms of your unhappy past. That's the best way to gain the ultimate victory over the HWAs and GRFs and RCMs of this world.
Remember: The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is apathy.
When you care deeply about something other than the hurt you suffered, that hurt can more readily go away. So don't try to be a fake-Christian and pretend you love the people who hurt you while you were in their church. Instead, figure out what moves you, and find your love there. In time, the pain and the craziness of WCG and its splinters will have less effect on your life than you may imagine possible.
Forgiveness of others should be earned by those whom the forgiveness is tended to.
No?
Would exemptions include forgiveness toward immediate family members?
Should Jesus' superforgiving command apply in all circumstances?
Dennis, IMO, this post is entirely appropriate and helpful. Will there be some who criticize or find fault?
Anon noted: "Remember: The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is apathy."
I feel the opposite of love is also not hate. Hate is the symptom and reaction to another opposite, fear. Fear is what gets thrown out of one's life when a genuine love moves in. Love, acceptance and peace of mind only seems possible after a devastating experience has been faced and overcome.
Forgiveness means paying for another persons crime. So first they shaft you, and then (according to this post) you should be shafted again by agreeing to pay for their sin. No, no , it should be like a car accident, if they are at fault, they pay, not the victim.
This post is typical conventional Christianity bull. All this talk of forgiveness, but no talk of respecting rights, borders of boundaries. I don't see Banned posting articles expanding the ten commandments.
David in the book of Psalms (which Christ referred to) had it right. He frequently asked God to punish, avenge and destroy the wicked. Vengeance, sweet vengeance.
Screw your forgiveness gibberish.
And it says something about your character, or lack of it, that you post this moral smut.
If I can be forgiven for my deceived part in messing up other people's lives, then, I certainly can forgive those who, with total but deceived well-meaning, messed up mine. It was my decision, deluded as it was, to join in. As soon as I realised I'd been "had," I got out and began the long process of re-education.
We all take wrong forks in the road during our lives. It's unavoidable. Trying to place blame and refusing to let go of it only leads to negative outcomes. I still have fond memories of past friends and associates, whether they've been able to shed the madness or not.
Allen C. Dexter
Anon said: David in the book of Psalms (which Christ referred to) had it right. He frequently asked God to punish, avenge and destroy the wicked. Vengeance, sweet vengeance."
I'm not sure "Christ" or did you mean Jesus in the Gospels?, would have agreed with your David. Now if you mean the "Christ" of Revelation, then they probably would agree with each other. Two different characters. By these standards, David himself was certainly a target for someone else's vengeance, sweet vengeance in his own life.
I'm not sure it is bull or gibberish as much as good mental health. Didn't someone say that if we all give in to "eye for eye" "tooth for tooth" we all end up blind and toothless. It's a choice between the two , forgive or revenge. I think revenge just keeps leaving us with the Hatfields and McCoys.
PS It's Buddhist thought much more than Christian actually. The Bible gives plenty of examples of both approaches and seems to sanction them both depending. The Old Testament is pure vengeance and the God of "I will repay." In the New we seem to have a son of the vengeful father offering up alternatives. Or, depending on one's theology, The son, who is also the father offering up alternatives to himself.
In hindsight, the God of the Restored, Living, United , Continuing , Philadelphian (HA!) and of the little men in the slivers is the vengeful type so you'd be happy there or perhaps are already in one of them which is why you think this way. It's the alternative choice so I know what you mean.
Anonymous 9:44 asked:
Should Jesus' superforgiving command apply in all circumstances?
If you read it carefully, the New Testament doesn't actually tell you to forgive everybody. It tells you to be generous in forgiving everybody who asks for forgiveness but for the rest you are not required to forgive, you just need to tolerate, or put up with their bad behavior.
Even so, what if you feel you can't forgive? What if somebody is abusing or manipulating you, using the Bible as a tool for abuse? ACOG ministers are very expert at that. Well, if you read a book that gave you bad advice, would you feel compelled to follow that advice? If you had a nosy neighbor who gave you bad advice, would you feel compelled to follow that advice?
What if the Bible is just another book, codified by people with a particular agenda? What if it is a mix of really good advice and really bad advice? Wouldn't it be a good idea to ignore the bad advice?
As practice, let's apply this to Dennis. Yes, his post ran really long, not Gerald Waterhouse long but it could have been briefer and focused better. Does it do you any good to be mad at him? No. Can you forgive him? Not if he doesn't see his loquaciousness as a problem. But can you let go of your worry, choose not to let it bug you, and simply take what was good about his post (and there was a lot of good), leave behind the stuff that didn't resonate, and move on? If you're really bugged, do like David and ask God to kick Dennis's ass, and then leave it alone. You'll be happier for having done so. And that's the goal, isn't it? Not to let someone hold forgiveness over your head like an abusive/manipulative club, but for you to do what's emotionally and psychologically good for you.
Vengeance and revenge seems a short term kinda warm fuzzy. It seems usually practiced by psychopaths and politicians and just keeps the circle of violence going and going and going. Justice and restorations seem fine for grievances and offenses. Certain politicians of late who brag of revenge and getting even as in "if they hit you, hit them five times harder" seems to be falling from grace and running out of friends and support and is becoming the poster child of payback gone awry.
According to Adam Smith, "mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent'. So much for forgiveness resulting in 'good mental health.' It's the exact opposite that's the truth.
If someone burnt Dennis's house down (if he owned one) out of malice, how would Dennis react? Why he would be singing my song, not his. He would demand vengeance and restitution. Vengeance movies are loved world wide. For instance, the present 'The Magnificent 7' remake. This is of Gods doing. It is hardwired into the human mind. Everyone loves vengeance. It needs to be embraced, rather than repudiated as advocated here.
And who keeps blowing the forgiveness horn? Why evil, twisted, swindling ministers of religion of course. Surprise, surprise.
Dennis, this is theologically sound from a mainstream Christian perspective, although it runs counter to Armstrongite practices. The sayings, I have seen almost verbatim in books and other places, only attributed to different sources or authors.
What many people don't realize is that forgiveness, and cultivating a close personal relationship with the forgiven are two totally different things. Sometimes for our very survival and well-being, although we forgive someone, we don't need to become religious fools and deliberately attempt to make ourselves close to the forgiven ones (even if it sounds nice, and appears to be "spiritual") There are many sound reasons for not doing that, not the least of which is the avoidance of relationships which would cause you to be codependent in various ways. Freedom in Christ means many diverse things to many different people.
Also, while people often change throughout their lives, in many cases, it's not to any great degree. So the same factors are present which originally spawned the need for forgiveness. As an example, a narcissistic borderline sociopath (like someone typically raised in the WCG + splinters) can modify his own bad behavior, by applying his intellect and giving the appearance that he is empathetic and loving as a learned or acquired skill, but the very human emotions which add depth to the behavior are still not naturally present. Better than not trying to correct it, but still remaining somewhat damaged.
BB
Vengeful said: "And it says something about your character, or lack of it, that you post this moral smut."
LOL ONLY with the COG mindset, programming, complete with Godly Old Testament references, could one's "character" be attacked for promoting forgiveness. What a commentary on missing the point of the entire New Testament no matter how one views it. I knew they should have mentioned Jesus at least a couple of times in Sabbath School lessons :)
Don't get mad, just get even. Start your own blog.
"To Be Played in All the Churches"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWLk4NR3RI
DennisCDiehl wrote...
"To Be Played in All the Churches"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWLk4NR3RI
Sez you and Dr. Hoeh... LOL...
Very nice. Thanks for sharing!
Vengeful, Anonymous 12:49, you must be some kind of gutless wonder to hide and snipe at Dennis for trying to help damaged people deal with their past. You cower in the corner, without identity and criticize. PATHETIC!
Speaking of character, if you were drunk when you posted, I understand and forgive. It was the booze, no doubt, but you should take a goat or lamb to the High Priest so you can get right with God.
Dennis C. Diehl appears to have trouble forgiving the WCG under the apostate Tkaches for laying him off when the church ran out of money after the Great Apostasy in 1995. Dennis naturally would have preferred to go on being employed by the church and paid by it to write and preach that the God of the Bible is just a myth, and that the real truth is to be found in some modern books about evilution and astrology that he read.
Other people had an even worse experience. Ministers who actually believed what the WCG under HWA had taught got fired for it. Members who actually believed what the WCG under HWA had taught got expelled for it. Such people have a more legitimate right to complain about what happened.
Do not put too much effort into trying to answer Dennis, as he tends to just delete everything if he does not like the way the comments are going.
I wonder if forgiveness is irrelevant. After all, these ACoG psychopaths don't see that they are doing anything wrong and will continue to oppress (and insult) people with their crass crap. Forgiving them is like flushing money down the toilet. They really have no worth. According to Dr. Robert Hare in "Without Conscience" these people have brain waves that aren't even human. Forgiving a cobra that's wiped out a village is as useless as trying to torture it: It's a waste of time.
Over on Quora, a self-proclaimed psychopath bragged that he's able to con everybody at work and that any one who challenges him is going to regret it. In fact, the best advice that Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak can give you in "Snakes in Suits" is to avoid them: Don't engage them, don't fight them and don't try to win. The psychos themselves are proud of the fact that will pretty much win every fight because they've wiped out your support at every turn.
My opinion (informed opinion after tons of research and decades of experience) is that the best recourse is to expose these people for all you're worth and do it in such a way that you'll have credibility with those who you seek to help avert the same tragedies you've had to face. That's the reason for this blog and places like The Painful Truth.
The real satisfaction and peace comes when you realize that you've done the best job you can to counter these scumbag scoundrels, because if you just sit there and do nothing but try to forgive them, you are likely to suffer guilt because you did not one thing to help anyone else.
The way to win is a collective front against the psychos with the caveat that it's a good work to deliver people from terrible situations created by the psychos.
It may never be a personal win, but somewhere out there someone will benefit and it will be worth the effort.
The RAGING, UNFORGIVING, FALSE PROPHETS on the so-called COG scene.
Regarding the current so-called COG scene with its numerous false prophets such as Slurry, Packman, Wineland, Boob, Oh Henry, and others, just try telling them that you cannot send them any money, or even listen to them anymore, because they are lying false prophets sent by Satan to lie, steal, destroy, and kill. Tell them that God forbids you to be a part of that. Notice their reaction.
They will NEVER FORGIVE you. They will NEVER FORGET what you said. It will be REMEMBERED FOREVER in their computer files and black books. They will ANGRILY read off the usual script as they hypocritically pretend to “bear you no ill will” and “hope that you come to repentance” and start sending them money so that they do not have to CONDEMN YOU TO THE LAKE OF FIRE for not sending them money, because you absolutely must send them money--lots of money (money, money, money). All forms of sexual depravity in the so-called COGs can be forgiven, and welcomed, and encouraged, and even forced on you against your will, but without the sending in of money there is no forgiveness. Not sending them money is the UNPARDONABLE SIN. Unsent money must always be sent later with usurious interest. So, then, can you buy their forgiveness? No, of course not! Even if you did send them money, on the inside they really would still HATE you, for they are EVIL, like their father the Devil.
The poor little sheeple are forever being told by Satan's ministers that they must forgive the worst unrepentant perverts around (that is, themselves--Satan's ministers) for every evil thing that they think, say, and do--and they think, say, and do a LOT of EVIL. Yet these worst unrepentant perverts around cannot even get over missing out on getting to steal a few more lousy dollars that were never even really theirs in the first place.
Never send even one dollar to any of these false prophets. If you do, you might never forgive your own self for making such a life-wrecking mistake. You would also have to ask God to forgive you for supporting false prophets and helping them to harm other people.
Forgiveness? Go ahead and forgive me--if you can (ha ha ha)--you lying, stealing, destroying, killing, UNFORGIVING, false prophets who plague the so-called COG scene with your lying, stealing, destroying, and killing.
If swearing were not in such poor taste, I would swear that our old troll SwappingDude has sneaked back as Anonymous of October 21, 2016 at 12:49 PM. You know who I mean. That certain Guy who might as well come right out and say, "There i$ no god but Mammon, and Friedman i$ hi$ profit."
Notice the concern with failed payback in his indignant description of forgiveness: "first they shaft you, and then (according to this post) you should be shafted again." Notice the concern with "respecting rights, borders of [sic] boundaries." Notice the emphasis on the Ten Commandments, with no mention at all of the Beatitudes. No wonder that in his commercialist world, greed reigns supreme, while the highest ideals of Christianity are dismissed as "gibberish" and "moral smut."
The main problem in life is that the world is full of evil people who do evil things to other people. The worst evil doers around often seem to have a fun time abusing other people and getting away with their evil deeds. The same thing happens even in the COGs. The victims of all the endless abuse get left with the problem of trying not to let it all drive them totally crazy.
Perhaps the best you can do is to ask God to help you to learn and get from everything that you have seen, heard, and experienced in life what He would like you to learn and get from it all, rather than what Satan and his demons and your persistently malicious enemies would like you to learn and get from it all.
DennisCDiehl said..."To Be Played in All the Churches"
Maybe you meant to say, “To Be Played in All the Buddhist Temples.”
To get a more realistic view of life, remember to check out some videos of Buddhist Monks fighting.
Black Ops Mikey said...
“The real satisfaction and peace comes when you realize that you've done the best job you can to counter these scumbag scoundrels, because if you just sit there and do nothing but try to forgive them, you are likely to suffer guilt because you did not one thing to help anyone else.”
This part of your comment reminded me of a UCG minister who seemed to mean well and really care about people, but who (unfortunately) spent most of his time trying to “stand in the gap” for what were really just unrepentant, unconverted perverts and weirdos who showed up at the UCG meetings to harass other people and cause trouble for them continually. In the end, the UCG minister just helped the lying perverts and weirdos by doing their dirty work for them and suspending anyone who simply told the truth about what was going on there. Continually and maliciously doing evil to others is totally allowed in the UCG. Saying anything about it is totally unacceptable in the UCG. Maybe the UCG minister thought that innocent victims did not need to be “forgiven,” but that slandering perverts did need to be “forgiven,” so the UCG minister chose to do that to “stand in the gap” for them.
The idea of helping the wicked to go on sinning, while condemning their innocent victims instead, was actually an apostate Tkach idea that took over in the UCG. When all the disunity and unrighteousness in the UCG led to the major COGWA split, the leftover liars spouted off about how unified and ready to grow they now were, but God does not seem to be sending any new people to put up with the perverts, weirdos, and injustice in the UCG.
With regard to forgiveness and Armstrongism, one thing that really helped me was to realize that in most cases, when we look around and get to know people, we're going to find others who went through much worse than we did. It's the old "I felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met someone who had no feet" mentality. So, while some have been critical of the angst and bitterness they think they see on all of the "hate" sites (as they call them), many of us can read the experiences of others that were far worse than our own, and 1) Feel compassion for those individuals, and 2) realize that our own suffering was not quite so bad as it could have been.
I have known friends and family, who in conversations over the past, have made it obvious that they kept careful and detailed notes of all of the bad things that happened to them throughout their lives, and with active blame for those whom they felt were responsible for those things. And it wasn't just WCG related stuff. Some of it was even brought on themselves by their own actions, and was part of "tough love" activities of which they missed the point. So, what seems as if it can be distilled down to a simple concept such as forgiveness often becomes a very complex pattern, sometimes with misleading signs. It's why in many cases detached professional help needs ro be sought, although we were programmed against seeking or trusting outside help.
Even preliminary "baby" steps towards forgiving others can make one's own life just a little less bad. That can be difficult for people who were part of a group that was taught that God's love is conditional. Lack of forgiveness can go hand in hand with conditional love.
I don't know whether this is still a prevalent attitude in the splinters, but it used to be that everyone who was not a member was seen as a predator, or at least as a potential predator. The thinking was that members were guided not by their natural appetites and emotions, but instead by the Spirit of God. So, there was a barrier of natural caution involved in the way outsiders were perceived and treated. Unfortunately, there is abundant anecdotal evidence supporting the fact that we had our own collection of predators amongst the ministry and members of the church. That defies official doctrine, so therefore is hidden behind a wall of denial, and presents itself as unacknowledgeable victimization. Again, complicating the topic of forgiveness.
Oh, the person we've identified as being "the vengeful one"? Actually, he or she is deceived, or hiding behind an ACOG-induced wall of denial. His or her attitudes are introducing negativity and toxicity into his or her own life, not ours. That individual is to be pitied (forgive them Lord, for they know not what they are doing), and, yes, forgiven. One day, hopefully, healing will take place.
BB
anon said: "Do not put too much effort into trying to answer Dennis, as he tends to just delete everything if he does not like the way the comments are going."
As you recall, the site mostly preferred no more postings about scientific inquiry, evolution vs creationism or Biblical errancy issues. In light of that I removed previous articles that were in that category and at the moment was not thinking about the comments being lost as well when I did that. It was a mistake for which I apologized and was a simple unanticipated and unintended consequence . I don't "delete everything if he does not like the way the comments are going." I don't care how the comments are going. There is something to be learned from everyone and about everyone who comments.
Sorry if the post was too long for some. I simply wanted to include a good variety of quotes so that perhaps some would resonate with those so inclined. The intent was to give some food for thought on a topic, which , to me , if not resolved in some positive way after a difficult experience will ruin a person's life and perspectives as some few have proven here in their own comments attacking me for writing about forgiveness of all things. At least I don't hide behind anonymity, so that's a plus....
October 21, 2016 at 5:00 PM;
...Jolly good call!
Yes, Dennis. There may be logical reasons for some anonymity, but I'm not afraid to stand up as myself for what I have to say. If I'm proven wrong, I'll admit it and retract. But, nothing in those 66 "books" will be accepted by me as proof of anything, so don't waste your time on it. As to opinions, they're mine and carefully thought out. I will state them boldly.
Allen C. Dexter
Gerald, ever noticed how million, make that billions of people enjoy watching Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, Arnie etc, beat the crap out of the villains. And they love watching Rambo shoot up the villains. According to you, everyone is wrong, but Gerald and Dennis is right. It's so therapeutic seeing the evil guys get their just deserts.
Retired Prof, the Beatitudes are a application of the ten commandments. There is no false dichotomy between the two as you imply. You lack or reject understanding. Why is that??
I think it can be more important (to self-healing) to forgive yourself than it is for you to forgive other people. But don't let anger towards others destroy your own life.
Dennis, people here hide behind anonymity for their safety. Cain killed Abel, not the other way around. Renounce God or the ten commandments, and you live in relative safety. Embrace Christianity, and you become a target. As you know, God hid Christ and many of the prophets on occasion.
You must know this, yet you and others want us to shed our protection.
Sounds evil to me. Do you have a explanation?
This is a great post, with take-away value, far beyond the COGleaders’ perception that Banned is just another accusing, atheist, anti-COG gripe-site.
I remember a cartoon of a friar sitting at a desk with an empty in box labeled “Forgive” and an overflowing box labeled “Forget”. I can’t recall any sermon about forgiveness, other than guilt trips over what we, the congregation, should be begging for. The ministry seems to present itself as having done nothing we need to forgive them for. The closest may have been during Pentecost 1974, which included the announcement of the “new truth” about Divorce and Remarriage; a minister indicated that he “should apologize” to the people who he counseled while the old rules were in effect.
The exception was a minister who spoke at the FOT in the mid-1970s – the first WCG minister I met, back in the 1960s before he was transferred to Pasadena for further study. He had been a brash young minister who upset a number of people, and had even discouraged a few from wanting to join the WCG. At the feast, he sincerely apologized to any he may have offended in the past, and followed that with a Prodigal Son sermon. I heard later our local minister was so upset over this that he said he would give a sermon to contradict everything this minister had said.
The AB video story of the king reminded me of my visit to the homestead this year. My mother reminded me yet again of a shyster friend on whom I wasted money 13 years ago. I reminded her that at that time I'd been unemployed for 6 months, and that shyster friend got me a professional job that I still have today… I may have been conned about a few things and lost some cash, but, like the king and the doctor, I feel I won in the end.
Perhaps the posting seemed long and loquacious only for those in a splinter who are used to getting all truth in booklet and article form and for whom books are a challenge?
I have to admit that I was tempted to comment "TL-DR" (too long, didn't read), and then to just skip to making generalized comments with my own ideas about forgiveness. But then, there was a little voice deep down inside that made me realize that this is an important topic that there hasn't been an awful lot of discussion on in the past. In fact, it's something that Church of God types would probably never expect to see us discuss. So, I reopened my mind (the mind is like a parachute in that it only works when it's open) and am sure glad that I did, because it was worth the effort!
Viewed as a technical problem, an obvious solution to the issue of forgiveness is not sinning against others in the first place. I don't recall Dennis mentioning this. "Forgiveness" without commandment keeping, amounts to giving a moral blank check to evil doers. So yes, the GOGLeaders are in agreement with many on Banned, that the greatest sin is to pass moral judgment. I can hear the GOD leaders applauding and cheering. Dave Pack is probably clapping the loudest.
Dennis, how refreshing and insightful was your article. It took me two sessions to read it, but that was due to the fact that there was much to chew on. I just happen to be a reader that takes the time to concentrate on what I just read.
Thank you for taking the time and effort. This article/post is a real keeper.
John
BB says 'one day, hopefully, healing will take place.'
You are mistaken. You do not understand. If you nick yourself shaving, there is complete forgiveness, via healing. If you loose your arm in a accident, there is no healing, your arm does not grow back.
There is zero, non, zilch, no what so ever healing.
People reject this obvious truth because they don't want the consequences of their sins following them around no end. Well too bad, that is wishful thinking, not reality. It is not what God created, it is not what exists. Wishful, magic thinking does not trump or wipe away the world, as is.
Anonymous said...
Dennis, people here hide behind anonymity for their safety. Cain killed Abel, not the other way around. Renounce God or the ten commandments, and you live in relative safety. Embrace Christianity, and you become a target. As you know, God hid Christ and many of the prophets on occasion.
You must know this, yet you and others want us to shed our protection.
Sounds evil to me. Do you have a explanation?
I do understand the desire and need for remaining anonymous in any number of circumstances. It is just uncomfortable to have those who generalize about my intentions, character, former association with , now 20 years past , as "one of them" etc by those who always repeat their snark no matter what is posted anonymously. That's their right as well. I am way past the need as you noted and find a certain authenticity and freedom in being openly myself come what may.
Embrace evolution, Biblical difficulties, origins, politic and errancy issues and evidently material on forgiveness and you become a target as well. LOL
Anonymous (October 21, 2016 at 12:49 PM) said... "Forgiveness means paying for another persons crime. ...
Screw your forgiveness gibberish.
And it says something about your character, or lack of it, that you post this moral smut."
Funny stuff. Either Anon' is a troll, or a hard core Armstrongist, either way they definitively nailed the spirit and heart of Armstrongism.
Right on, Dennis.
8:14, you are confusing healing with loss. Losing an arm is simply a deeper nick. The same bleeding, scabbing, and scarring processes take place in the damaged area remaining after a limb loss, as do from a shaving nick. So, there is healing. Unlike the case of trees and some crustaceans, human limbs do not regenerate. So you have catastrophic tissue loss.
Consequences of bad decisions, and chance alike follow us around. What we call sin generally falls into the category of a bad decision. Often bad decisions are influenced by an improper frame of mind, such as that of a person filled with anger towards a person or people whom they have not forgiven. It then can become a dominant cycle in a person's life. Forgiveness is a two way process. If you can't forgive, you are also incapable of accepting forgiveness. And these are the only two paths to breaking the bad cycle. This is another area of life where it is better to err towards the higher spiritual concept, even though that might not be the apparent choice. And, the fruits of either way are so readily observable except to the person who refuses to see.
BB
Target me all you want, as long as no real bullets or swords are involved. Be as snarky as salves your heart. Impute all the impure motives you wish. It won't bother my sleep a bit. If it did, I'd still be kowtowing to some narcissist somewhere.
Allen C. Dexter
Anonymous, if you are feeling threatened, I doubt it is because you act like a Christian. My guess is that you may be paranoid, or you act like a jerk, 24/7. Do you ever see the good in people, or make positive comments?
If you remain anonymous because you are protecting family members still in a splinter, or if you are being paid by one of them, okay, but if not, you are a coward.
Tagging on to Gerald's second paragraph, I don't believe that an anonymous poster who comes out in favor of unforgiveness would be trying to protect anyone. The guy is a drive-by who likes to take potshots. That's anti-Christian, and anti-ethical atheist.
In the Laodicea Era of the Church in these End Times there is much offence, betrayal, and hatred, especially among the false prophets who appeared on the scene with their imposter cults to deceive many people.
Gerald Flurry of the PCG imposter cult scam cannot forgive those who refuse to senselessly break up their families and dishonor their parents to go worship his shortness with tall titles. Gerald rants like a drunken runt about to throw a beer can. He cannot be happy unless he can get his followers to behave even worse than unbelievers.
David Pack of the RCG imposter cult scam cannot forgive those who do not send him virtually everything they own. Dave becomes frustrated and angry and pouts bitterly about how it is often all “about the money.” Those who want to listen to what HWA had taught rather than go along with all the massive new teachings cause Dave to pout bitterly about them being “idolaters.” Dave always pouts bitterly whenever he does not get his own selfish way.
Ronald Weinland of the COG-PKG imposter cult scam cannot forgive those who do not listen to his always flopping prophetic jokes. Ron's fake, happy, clown smile falls into a frown when people get tired of listening to his really lame prophetic jokes. His attitude is even worse than that of his colleague Pennywise the clown's bad attitude.
Bob Thiel of the CCG imposter cult scam cannot forgive those who reject demons, pagans, and his false claim to being a true prophet. Bob keeps on getting bitter, not better. He just won't grow up.
Do not let the problems of these unforgiving, raging, false prophets become your own problems. Do not hang out with them, or listen to them, or financially support them, and risk becoming even more frustrated, angry, and bitter than they are.
BB my wording wasn't the best. There are design parallels between the physical and mental. If you nick yourself shaving, there is complete forgiveness in the sense of complete healing. If you loose a arm, it does not grow back, meaning there is no forgiveness. In order words there is no forgiveness for grievous crimes such as rape or murder.
Gerald, believe it or not, people here have been kind to you by not saying certain things. You should try doing the same, rather than being provocative.
Dennis you went to AC. You were fed the usual church diet of some of Gods word rather than all of Gods words. After decades of this, how can you not be 'one of them?' yes you reject the existence of God and the bible. But so do many, if not most of the ministers. Their 'God' is made in their own image, and their mistreatment of members proves that they don't really believe in the bible either. It's only if you hook into a different diet on another blog or publication/s, that you can realise how much you are of the church mold. I suggest you try reading some conservative blogs as a reality test. Do you agree with what they say but somehow it 'feels strange?'
Vaughn, most church members are very vindictive. And they never forgive you if you sin against them. The flip side of the same coin is demanding 'forgiveness' as a right, even without repentance. As far as I'm concerned, this is where most of the posts on this blog are coming from. They feel that they have the right to this double standard.
This is the unspoken indefensible belief behind these accusations against me.
Sin = Suffering
From Dennis, and almost all of the responders, we were all trying to minimize our's and each other's suffering. And all along the while learning to bring justice to those that we feel deserve it, ourselves.
DBP
ps: I mainly come here for the shits and giggles, but this was extra nice
Not sure, but I think Anon 1:01 is trying to say "if you embrace Armstrongism, you become a target", not simply "Christianity".
If by that, he means a target on the blog comments, maybe, but you can use anything to ID your posts. You can call yourself "Baked Chicken" if you want to.
Dennis you went to AC. You were fed the usual church diet of some of Gods word rather than all of Gods words. After decades of this, how can you not be 'one of them?' yes you reject the existence of God and the bible. But so do many, if not most of the ministers. Their 'God' is made in their own image, and their mistreatment of members proves that they don't really believe in the bible either. It's only if you hook into a different diet on another blog or publication/s, that you can realise how much you are of the church mold. I suggest you try reading some conservative blogs as a reality test. Do you agree with what they say but somehow it 'feels strange?'"
You are mistaken in your view of me. I grew up Presbyterian, Orthodox and memorized the Westminister Confession of Faith by the time I was 16. It was strict Dutch and I was reciting entire Psalms in second grade. I grew up with everything well understood in my church background about what Joe Tkach went back to. He reinvented my wheel. I did not "mistreat members". I have recited my approach and background in other places and won't repeat it here. I was not given to believing everything HWA said or Gerald Waterhouse tortured us with and did not teach what I did not believe. I told Gerald Waterhouse to his face he caused me more church anxiety and problems than he solved and I was telling people to talk to him about their questions. I knew more about the OT and NT and the differences when I went to AC than most knew four years later of college.
I went from Sunday church one week to AC with no experience in a local church or with a local minister in between. I had 35 extended family in the church and they all returned to their previous Presbyterian churche, as did my parents who were an Elder and Deaconess. Not ONE family member stayed in a splinter. We weren't all that tied into it in the same way others who grew up in it were.
For example, to my knowledge, I NEVER gave a sermon or made references to British Israel stuff. From my Calvinist background, not only didn't I care but knew it mattered nothing in the context of the NT. I told members in the 70's who had to go work a weekend at a trade show or lose the job, to go and church would be there next week. I took my kids to the zoo after church on Sabbath in the 70's and told folks not to refuse immunizations unless they believed it and not just because they thought they had to. I got my kids their shots in the 70's. That church and all others to follow knew I did not like majoring in the minors.
I've covered this all before over the past 20 years but don't tell me I was "one of them." I was not.
My views on the God breathedness of the Bible is based on 20 years of study outside both Presbyterian and COG boxes as well as Evolution which I probably believed and was fascinated with even as a kid. I passed through WCG and took way too long to do it to reach conclusions I know I would have reached in life about such topics had I gone to Roberts Wesleyan Seminary, which had also accepted me in the day, in Rochester, NY. My journey into and out of Bible literalism was inevitable no matter where I had ended up in ministry. When young, naive and idealistic, WCG bit me as knowing more about the whole book , include Revelation etc, which Presbyterians wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole ever. They thought the author had "good drugs" as I was told by one minister. I was mistaken and it took a long time realize it, admit it and get through the depression and anxiety it dragged me through in the process.
Growing up my weekly church schedule on Sundays was, Church in the morning, Sunday School after church where we learned the Bible from Genesis to Jude minus Revelation, Home for dinner, afternoon visiting my brother at the state hospital, church in the evening, youth group after church . During the week as a teen I went from grammar school and High School once a week to Catechism Classes occasionally from which I was asked to leave for asking too many questions and such. Once for just goofin around too much. I had to kill some time so my parents didn't ask why I got home so early lol. The good old days! I still have the letter from the Session of my Presbyterian Church that noted I had been home from College in California and had yet to go through my profession of Faith so what's up with that? I had to write them a no thank you letter.
And.....a letter from John Shelby Spong, who I had written to tell him his "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" and Gospel Origins was the most influential book I had read that helped with all the questions about the Bible that accumulated over the years . He thanked me for the compliment and made it very clear to me that if I enjoyed the material my ministry in WCG was doomed. Of course he was right. In the mid 90's, when still a WCG minister, I was invited by the Catholic Church in town whose Monseigneur and I were good friends due to meeting at an AIDS Day meeting , to teach the Birth Narratives to HIS Bible study. I was not allowed to teach it to my own but some more open minded members in SC did attend. Then came the fateful day when Church Administration came for a church visit, gave me a 25 year watch that didn't work and had a dead battery to book from sitting on a shelf for years no doubt and told my congregation NOT to listen to me or anything John Shelby Spong had to say. Needless to say, Mene Mene Tikel My-pharsin came to mind.
And finally, and forgive the loquaciousness this evening, the intent of this posting was not about ministers forgiving members. It was about Self Care in life when one is faced with those who cause hurt and cause all manner of disruption in one's life. It was about how forgiveness trumps the ever dragging on bitterness with revenge and not being happy until the scales balance somehow.
It is about the concept of dealing with whatever is eating at you because whether one understands it or not, what eats you, EATS YOU in your health mentally, physically and in whatever positive spirituality informs and guides you.
amen and amen.......................................
Dennis, I for one really like the multiple short posts, each focused more or less on one thought or concept. Keep 'em coming in those digestible short chunks!
Gracious Gratitude
1:29, If you are saying that sometimes the natural physical penalties for our sins remain, in spite of our forgiveness and release from the spiritual penalties for those same acts, then we are in agreement. Certainly, a murderer or rapist will not have his earthly jail sentence removed because he accepted Jesus Christ.
The major point Dennis seemed to be making is that forgiving others for what they have done to us does improve the quality of our lives and theirs. It gets rid of toxins, and breaks bad cycles. 70 x 7 was a Hebrew way of signifying infinity.
BB
Forgiving the evil is evil.
Forgiveness is the politically correct thing to preach. Too bad there isn't more honesty in the world.
Dennis C. Diehl,
If you really “learned the Bible from Genesis to Jude, minus Revelation” then why are the Presbyterians just a bunch of ham-eating Sunday-keepers? You ought to know by now how Protestant so-called “Bible studies” are done: pick and choose, twist and distort, read over and read into, ignore and make up, reject the commandments of God for their own traditions, etc.
The British Israel stuff said that Britain and the USA were so relatively prosperous compared to other nations because God had specially blessed them. Now that Britain and the USA have not repented of their sins, and have started to sin even more, they are in danger of losing their blessings and being punished by God. This certainly would still matter and is very relevant. Things could get very ugly.
Anonymous 1:29, your comment could be taken as a threat--a completely empty one. Should anyone want to bash me for my posts, I can take it. I have been bashed by the best. You stand or cower in your hiding place and shoot at people who are trying to be helpful and positive. I have no use for the position you take. It is cowardly. If you have something to say, own it. Is that provocative?
Do you not agree that holding grudges only hurts the person holding the grudge? How could that not be obvious?
anon said: Dennis C. Diehl,
If you really “learned the Bible from Genesis to Jude, minus Revelation” then why are the Presbyterians just a bunch of ham-eating Sunday-keepers? You ought to know by now how Protestant so-called “Bible studies” are done: pick and choose, twist and distort, read over and read into, ignore and make up, reject the commandments of God for their own traditions, etc.
I know the WCG perspective very well. The simple and less loquacious answer is simply that all Sunday keeping churches are the descendants of the Gentile Christian Church under the writings of the Pro-Roman, Jewish Christian hating Paul. Peter, James and John represented the Jewish Christian faction that simply was overwhelmed in history by the Pauline Gentile Church we see today.
I know the apologetic but Paul really did eschew the customs of Judaism and the Jerusalem Apostles in the story. Sunday really did evolve from the Gospel Resurrection tales, though none of them agree on what actually happened. The Romans really did influence Christianity's growth. Paul could not have cared less about clean and unclean.
Trying to make Paul agree with Peter, James and John is simply not possible. You have to pick either Paul's Cosmic and hallucinatory Christ or Peter, James and John's Jewish Jesus. Paul wrote all his somewhat gnostic Christ views, lived and died long before the Gospels were ever written. Paul knew NO earthly Jesus or any of the fleshed out man/Jesus of the Gospels. Paul does not quote such a Jesus ever because his version, his Gospel, for which he cursed anyone for not believing he got from no man but from the Jesus in his head as we read in Galatians 1-2, was his own. He practically brags about learning nothing from the Jewish Christian Peter, James and John types.
Long story. I spare you. A good start would be Hyam Jacoby's, Paul the Mythmaker and really many, many other views on Paul vs the Jewish Christian church. Paul, with Roman citizenship, was no "Pharisee of the Pharisees" nor is there any real evidence he was the student of the great Gamaliel as reported in Acts. Acts is the bridge between the gospels and Paul to make him look cooperative with the other NT Apostle characters but it's propaganda and real theologians find little in Acts that they deem credible and historical.
(continue on next comment)
continuing..
Some feel the evidence leads to Rome having much input into the Paul's views and the Gospels were written long after Paul to give Gentile Christians a Jesus that was pacifistic, Rome obedient and compliant to counter the Jewish zealot anti-Rome factions that were the reason Rome finally ground Jerusalem into the ground in 70 AD and made the "prophecy" of Revelation, written to encourage Jewish Christians to hang tough, moot and failed prophecy. Nuther long story.
Bottom line. There is plenty of good NT theological evidence in the texts to do away with Jewish Christianity and trying to make Gentile Christian Paul the same as Jewish Christian James is impossible. The Book of James was probably written to counter Paul's Book of Romans and both ended up in the cannon which is why one can use one to push Jewish law and one can use the other to negate it with grace.
The theology of the NT is not the simplistic one Herbert Armstrong came up with in the Portland library less than a mile from where I am writing you. I realize I posted this posting on forgiveness because as I sat at a light on 20th Avenue Friday stuck in front of the Hinson Baptist Church where HWA was Baptized, I got to thinking about the topic and how full circle I had come by sitting in front of that WCG historic intersection picturing the young HWA walking up its steps into misguided and yet another uneducated ministry making the Bible mean what it neve meant and does not mean now.
HWA and WCG also picked and choose, twisted and distorted, read over and read into, ignored and made up, and rejected the Grace and anti Jewish Pauline theology for their own traditions, etc. The NT character of Paul created the non- Jewish Gentile Christian church of today. Half the books attributed to Paul in the NT are "pseudopigrapha" or forgeries as we say today written in his name long after his death to promote the cause. Nuther long story.
a characterization of October 21, 2016 at 12:49 PM:
"They are not doing Exchange properly.
I can’t exchange properly with them if they don’t know how. If I get them to exchange, then I can exchange with them. But I might earn exchange by finding out why they don't do exchange properly. Getting them to exchange 'fairly' is hard work for me and is not fair exchange for me. I’m not supposed to get exchange out of working out why they’re not. But there is even exchange in pretending to them I’m not doing exchange finding out why they’re not.
A little girl comes along and says: "Let’s Exchange!"
But exchanging is a waste of time, because it doesn’t help to figure out why they’re not exchanging properly.
How dare you exchange when Christ died on the Cross for you! Was He having a fair exchange?
It is our duty to bring up our children to exchange properly!" by Mr. Love Less
It should be obvious why "Love Less" doesn't understand the Beatitudes. Love is seen as an entitlement or exchange that can only be granted by the Highest Authority. Maybe this is why parents, in this awful cult, can be talked into abandoning their children at the mall.
True Love will always lead to MORE!
All in the Waiting
BB king David didn't agree with you. He repeatedly asked God for revenge and punishment of evil doers. He did not ask for forgiveness for these enemies 'to improve the quality of our lives and theirs,' or to get 'rid of toxins and bad cycles.' He would have laughed at your words.
Evil people only consider what they can get away with. Punishment is all they respect. Justice is what 'improves the quality of our lives and theirs,' rather than your 'forgiveness' which only creates a Disneyland for thugs. Punishment is what brings relief, comfort and mental cleaning to the victims.
Vengeance sweet vengeance.
One example:
Psalm 18.40 thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hare me
King David, what a real man
Gerald, if someone raped a family member, leaving them scarred for life, would you not never forgive and never forget, pursuing them through all eternity if need be, to get revenge.
How could that no be obvious??
I can't believe this thread of comments is actually happening. There's gotta be some trolls in the mix.
Some of you may find this concept helpful in why it is important to literally address the anger and life baggage issues for one's own sake. It took me almost my whole life to realize it's just fine to put myself first, acknowledge my doubts and call a toxic person or concept out for what they or it is, damn the consequences. So I can release the past and live an authentic life in the present.
This is not to promote what some what call any "woo hoo" factor, but to remind ourselves we are both what we eat and what eats us.
http://www.gaia.com/lp/e-motion?utm_source=facebook%20paid&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=st-emotion&utm_content=health&utm_term=10-10-neurons%20disease-banner-heal&ch=st
"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.
He said, “My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all.
“One is Evil – It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
“The other is Good – It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf wins?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
Dennis,
Elsewhere I expressed my dismay about some of the extreme comments on a topic dedicated to forgiveness.
I have seen that sometimes it proved helpful for victims of crime to "meet", "speak" or at least "look"purpatrators in the eye. Since it is the state's prerogative to punish on behalf of the people victims sometimes are overwhelmed by a sense of powerlesness.
I see that you were inspired to write about forgiveness right in front of a building associated with hurt in your experience. Do you feel that it might be helpfull to visit physical objects or places that are associated with personal hurt?
In my case after years of distance I brought closure over it all by visiting the AC campus while "A single man" was being filmed there. The very thought that the portrayal of "gay" faculty men was taking place in the offices of Rader and GTA brought final closure on a psychological level that the empire was indeed dead. And my wife was just enjoying the garden and the Koi.
On another note.
During my tenure I was often in contact with members who had suffered greatly by the mighty hand of the Japanese emperor. With vivid memories of bowing for the Son of the Sun while being beaten to dead, they must have witnessed HWA receive high praise by that same emperor.
I never dared to ask how those great people that I was fortunate to meet often had succeeded in continuing in becoming praiseworthy, loving, generous, forgiving persons.
My guts has some empathy for those trollers that seem to violently attack the concept of forgiveness. It seems to restore power to those that perhaps have been powerless at one time. At the same time I am humbly reminded by those prime examples of people that truly stood the test of real suffering and somehow managed to become who they became.
Your posting has brought back the memory of those that passed away long time ago and stand in my memory as living monuments of transition through forgiving.
nck
Thank you nck for sharing that. Yes, visiting places n even people in the cjsin of pain gives closure too. Its why I agreed to debate Mokarow. Not to convince but for my own sake n to voice my own experience n keep moving. I am sitting at the moment on a rock on the Willamette River before work creating new associations with the Willamette Valley". This place is magic to me n healing
Cjsin = chain on a cell phone lol
Btw.. FB friend me if so inclined
1:35, I have no idea what your background might be, or your beliefs. But, King David was an example from the Old Covenant. Isn't that the whole problem with Armstrong theology, that it's stuck in the Old Covenant? Isn't that what produces all of the bad fruits we expose in the splinters? We have an opportunity to recognize and follow both good and bad examples that are present in scripture. War and violence followed King David throughout his entire life.
You may not deduce this from my screen name, but I once firmly believed in massive retaliation, and in many cases administering paybacks. I punished people, thinking that it would produce a personal catharsis. Believe me, when I tell you that it did not make me feel better. A little school teacher who was sent into my life just briefly taught me that I was perpetuating bad cycles that I had an opportunity to break. And she knew. She was suffering horribly at the hands of another, and told me that if I used violence to solve her problem, in her eyes, I would become no better than him. Thankfully, I honored her wishes in that respect. It started a new and better pattern in my thinking and in the ways in which I interact with people.
Unless we have known them personally and over a long period of time, we can never know from comments typed on a computer keyboard what other posters are really like, their life's experiences, or what produced their attitudes. Some are very open, and others hold back. I'm also certain that there are varying degrees of intelligence, and in some cases, peoples' thinking is clouded by their vices. But, we also have a huge collection of experience here, along with the pleasures and angst that accompanies that. Hopefully some of it all helps others to live better lives. There is balance between preventing yourself from becoming a victim, and taking the law into your own hands to violently punish people. I hope you don't go to extremes that would get you into trouble. Best to lead with the Golden Rule.
BB
I take it Jesus in Matthew 6:14-15 was not a real man, heh.
Dammit, I would love to sit on a rock on the Willamette River, but I only get to be there every couple of years. :(
Question: Should we forgive corporations for the evil they do?
There's a bumper sticker on a car in the parking lot that says,
"I will be convinced that corporations are people
when the State of Texas executes one."
Armstrongism is made up of corporations. They are soulless. Dr. Robert Hare gave an analysis in "The Corporation" video (which he now regrets) that corporations are psychopaths: Lack of empathy, no morals, no conscience. Profit triumphs over humanity. For the most part, the Armstrongist cult sects are corporations.
If the goal is to truly escape the cult, then the best resource is "Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships" by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias.
Note the chapter, "Making Progress by Taking Action".
You can't forgive a company, organization or church. Thats too big. You can only forgive individuals
RSK...let's have coffee
BB Christ on several occasions quoted from the OT. So it is a Christian, not a Herbie issue. If David was wrong, his Psalms would not be in the bible. The only reason your family and relatives are safe is because of fear of vengeance from others, including yourself.
Well, that's what is so great about free will, 1:16. You get to live your kind of life, and I get to live mine. All I know is that physical life has a lot of symbiosis and synergy that isn't completely understood, and it's best to be on the positive side wherever possible.
I also wonder about the extent of your experience. There is a certain percentage of the general population that doesn't care about how big and bad someone is, or the threat of violence. Those people thrive on the personal challenge of going in anyway, and to hell with the consequences. Some fools actually stole Sonny Barger's "Sweet Cocaine" motorcycle at one time. I think they were maimed and possibly killed iirc.
As a nation, our superior military does tend to preserve Pax Americana, but impudent little nations often defy American interests with no possibility of coming out on top. Hell, people even defy God himself! He tells us to play nicely with one another in the pool, and there's always someone who doesn't want to.
BB
Perhaps I am contradicting myself.
But could forgiveness be understood as a well understood rite of passage.
I mean your daughters 18th birthday or better perhaps 13th is "just" a birthday.
But properly understood they are powerful tools for a true rite of passage.
So yes if attacked. You stand guard and you aim to shoot.
But the process of taking anothers life is meaningless if you do not understand that you are him and he is you. That under different circumstance places might have been reversed. That there are no inherent physical differences between you and the other. That you are to respect life as the other person should have respected yours.
In the case that you have been on the receiving end you are the one damaged, hurt or disrespected it is possible to move on regardless. But to have a rite of passage and to be able to perform that by true forgiveness it is possible to move on with a more solid foundation or as some call it start a healing process.
Please keep in mind. I am just typing this by head and I am not a professionally trained psychologist at all.
Perhaps one can liken the process to a wedding.
Few unmarried persons in my circle understand the importance of the ritual.
I mean what is the difference. They have houses, three children are committed. So what is the fuss about this wedding thing? I can only relate from a personal perspective that it makes all the difference if you come out in public and declare before your kin and the civil community a holy bond between you and another person. This rite of passage or ritual makes for more powerful change.
This is all just my opinion I am not arguing. And certainly not arguing the right to defend oneself against evil in uncompromising manner.
But I cannot help the feeling of relief when returning from "the only democracy in the middle east," to nations that have their safety secured by less fear or explicit means of vengeance. You have to experience that. It is impossible to learn from books. Try it boldly. In a mature and indeed not naive way.
nck
Justice is not emotionally and personally damaging as individual vengeance and they are two different concepts
3.03 PM. It is because of the desire of vengeance that justice is done.
Two Wolves
The Trumpet.com has the leading article of 'The merciful death penalty,' which they occasionally repost. It seems they have indirectly entered the debate.
The concept here is not letting others get away with anything or ignoring dsngerous people. Perhaps more acceptance of the experience and not living a life of personally harmful n toxic to self perspectives, which don't serve anyone well
Wow, great subject, and thanks for posting on it, Dennis!
After reading 81 comments, here are some of my thoughts:
It may be more a matter of semantics, but personally and internally I use the word "understanding" instead of "forgiveness"
Here's the why of that-
When someone says, "I'm sorry", some people will answer, "That's ok.", even though it 'technically' wasn't ok. Is that 'technically' forgiveness? Maybe, maybe not, but it gives a hint that there's a degree of understanding present.
I do understand that people react (in ways that sometimes harm others) based on their psycho-social milieu. In colloquial terms, it may be said their actions are because of "brainwashing", and thus, more understandable.
Does that make people who revel in, 1) the notion of murdering gays, 2) people who revel in the notion of beating their children, 3) people who revel in the notion of murdering Jews, 4) people who revel in the murdering of Muslims, etc, any less human?
No, because it's able to be understood that at highly emotional rallies by: 1a) people like Michele Bachmann, 2a) People like Garner Ted Armstrong, 3a) People like Adolf Hitler, 4a) People like Donald J Trump, people can and do succumb to an external locus of control.
Saying it's understandable doesn't make it all better. However, it can help an individual to relinquish an unhealthy grudge. Holding onto an angry grudge only hurts the bearer of the grudge.
In no way am I saying that egregious harmful acts are ok or shouldn't be prosecuted.
BTW, here are some of my favorite comments on this thread-
* Gerald wrote- "holding grudges only hurts the person holding the grudge? How could that not be obvious?"
* "When you care deeply about something other than the hurt you suffered, that hurt can more readily go away."
* Allen wrote- "Trying to place blame and refusing to let go of it only leads to negative outcomes."
And, here are some of my LEAST favorite comments on this thread-
* "David in the book of Psalms (which Christ referred to) had it right. He frequently asked God to punish, avenge and destroy the wicked. Vengeance, sweet vengeance."
* "Forgiving the evil is evil."
* "Vengeance movies are loved world wide. For instance, the present 'The Magnificent 7' remake. This is of Gods doing. It is hardwired into the human mind. Everyone loves vengeance. It needs to be embraced."
* "Billions of people enjoy watching Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, Arnie etc, beat the crap out of the villains... It's so therapeutic seeing the evil guys get their just deserts."
What? "Might makes right."? Even our illustrious Byker Bob, by his own admission, is in the process of moving away from that contention and the bullying techniques which he'd adopted and honed.
It's obvious some few react to postings without actually reading the content where what disturbs them is covered realistically in the text
Yes, some don't seem to be able to conceptualize, or to distill what is needed for a practical application. I'm reminded of the guy a couple of months ago who thought he had a target on his back that made everyone with whom he had any contact single him out and persecute him. Nothing any of us contributed was of any help to him, because he systematically turned all of the positive points we made into negatives.
It seems obvious that we should separate and distance ourselves as much as possible from bad people, predators. Nobody suggested otherwise. Forgive them, but don't carry on close relationships with them. That's just plain common sense and balance. There are always going to be people who are convinced that the deck is stacked against them, making it impossible for them to lead a victorious life. You'd think they'd be able to understand and embrace something so basic as forgiveness, but apparently not.
BB
BB, if you read the book of psalms, David often had a 'target on his back.' Christ stated that as the world hated Him, they will also hate those who truly follow Him. All conscientious Christians have a 'target on their back,' and that's both inside and outside the corporate churches.
"I'm reminded of the guy a couple of months ago who thought he had a target on his back that made everyone with whom he had any contact single him out and persecute him."
Was that the kooky guy who complained that all his WCG dates didn't abide his imagined "fair trade" policy because they weren't pretty enough, or because he was expected to pay for the dates?
It's nearing the end of 2016 now.
My prayer is that dude will realize how behind the times he is. Let him walk down The Yellow Brick Road to Damascus, and realize there's a talking flying monkey that Jesus has obviously picked out just for him.
Hmm, now we are beset with the gospel of vengeance, eh? I think the gospel of boners was more entertaining.
I just finished re reading the book of Jeremiah where near the end, God pronounces military destruction on many nations. Yet it seems most here disagree with these type of judgments. My, how people love their 'blue pill' of illusions. Gerald is even hallucinating that others want to bash him. An overdose of the blue pills no doubt. I'II stick with the red pill.
9:40, I don't know what part of the world you happen to live in. But, here in the good old US of A, we've got so much diversity and multiculturalism that it's not so much the conscientious Christians that have the targets on their backs. It's the contentious Christians who take delight in making themselves totally obnoxious. And, I'm not implying anything by that statement, it's just what I see and hear as an occasional observer.
Many of the things Jesus is recorded as having said were based on the culture of His times. He lived and functioned within a Jewish theocracy (regulated by the Romans). His followers did not fit in with the Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes, the three major sects of the temple theocracy. That put their jobs and livelihood, to say nothing of their continued ability to worship in the temple in jeopardy.
Now, if a Christian today were for some unfathomable reason working in the porno industry, or for a criminal enterprise, I agree, he or she would probably be under constant persecution. In major companies, there are actually classes related to diversity, and how to interact with people who are different from oneself. I work with a variety of people in all manner of environments, and Christians are present in many of them. I don't make a point of initiating discussions regarding God, Jesus, or the Bible, but when they do happen, I am frequently amazed at the depths of peoples' understanding. Sometimes such a discussion really makes my day.
A person who believes that persecution is a desirable thing, one for which a reward is given, just might be giving off a vibe that attracts persecution. Frankly, that vibe is something that can be taught, learned, and practiced. It's possible to be Christian without giving off said vibe.
BB
BB. Cain did not kill Abel because of some vibe or similar. Christ was not persecuted and murdered because of some vibe. The main stream media demonizes conservatives, so don't give me the 'old U S and A' routine. Godly people are hated worldwide.
Lil' dramatic, isn't he? Must be waiting for Oooooobawma to dee-clare that "marshul law".
5:20, I still believe you have a thinking problem. Yes, Cain slew Abel. That is one person's reaction to one person's righteousness and the favor or blessings shown to him. You can't extrapolate from that extreme and accurately state that mankind as a species will always kill or persecute the righteous. That would be specious reasoning. It is a well known fact that criminal behavior is exhibited by a relatively small percentage of the general population.
And, as for Jesus Christ, if you are Christian, surely you realize that His mission in even coming to planet Earth in human form was to live a perfect life, and for the express purpose of dying to pay mankind's sin debt. As a party to the Old Covenant, He also had to die so that that covenant could be vacated and there could be a New Covenant, making the burden lighter.
But, if you want to believe that you have the Christian version of the mark of Cain, or Canaan, go for it.
BB
BB the Sabbath crowd tried to throw Christ over a cliff. The religious leaders sought to kill Christ on several occasions, on losing debates with Him. They were motivated by murderous hatred, not by a desire to fulfill prophesy. The average Highh school classroom has several vile students, so I question whether it's a small minority that criminal. Likewise, the vilification of conservation by the main street media, again implies that it is more than a minority. That politicians who promise the most freebies are voted into office, points to criminally minded voters. The bible on many occasions tells Christians to expect persecution, and it's what Christians experience. The body of evidence is there.
Really. And what persecution do you experience, exactly?
OK 2:36. Those are valid points. I'd just prefer to see you not believing that you are under some sort of constant Christian "curse". There are also scriptural references to a burden that is light, God giving us grace and favor in the sight of others, blessings for Christians, deep inner peace and the abundant life. Trials and persecution are at best occasional events. Even then, there is not only help in getting through them, but there are also ways of making them less bad without compromising our principles.
If people could not see examples of Christians being blessed and happy, what examples would attract people to discipleship?
Paul, you just finished re-reading the book of Jeremiah, and I am hallucinating? That's funny! My reference to the possibility of being bashed was the result of a veiled threat from Anon 1:29, indicating I was being provocative, and his friends might start being mean to me if I continued. How can I believe he has friends if he won't tell us who he is?
It is amusing that so many on this site take pot shots at others but hide in anonymity, like you, without a last name. Are you protecting a family member, or are you just gutless? Maybe you are the resurrected Apostle Paul, and we should know you by your writing style.
I don't get the blue pill and red pill comment. Is it a political reference?
Good luck with your military destruction. Death to the heretics!!
BB there are the blessings you mention of inner peace, and favor in the sight of others. To me, 'the burden that is light' is in reference to law keeping, such as obeying the traffic laws. You left out the 'many are the afflictions of the righteous' and 'you must enter the kingdom through much tribulation.' God does not play favourites, so Christians today need to have a harder life to be the bride of Christ.
Whilst our example to others is a factor, my experience is that it's a inconsequential one. Just about everything is subordinated to character development.
RSK, your question is too personal, but the examples in the bible cover most everything.
In my experience, most ex-Coggers still love the "ass-kicking" Revelations Christ (who will smite with a sword and cause 7-foot deep rivers of blood to flow), over the more sedate Gospel Jesus, who said, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". and other things, such as in this dialogue:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"
"22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."
Somehow, I don't see 'Gospel Jesus' as being a fan of revenge oriented movies, like Steve McQueen's 'Nevada Smith', or other revenge movies from Bruce Lee, Charles Bronson, Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Clint Eastwood, etc.
Gerald, calling people gutless and cowards is provocative. In fact,the blog owners refused to post my original reply. When Christ was asked whether He was the Son of God, He replied by asking whether John the Baptist was from man or God. Meaning, you don't give out information if it is counter to your interest, so neither will I.
You Gerald, do not give out personal information when it suits you, yet you bagger others for refusing to give their names. You do not have a right to a double standard.
If you Googled 'blue pill red pill,' you would have discovered it's from the Matrix movie trilogy. The red pill refers to living in the real world, and the blue pill refers to living in a make believe world.
Military destruction is all that works with crazies. Which is why Nazi Germany was carpet bombed near the end of the war. Probably a command from God.
Or do you think yourself wiser than God?
11.27AM my bible tells me to live by every word of God rather than your cherry picking. How many times did Christ 'ass-kick' Israel in the desert. In fact He avenged Himself by refusing that generation entry into the promised land.
When scientists spend years studying some manner species in the wild, they don't turn around and conclude 'all these animals are wrong' in their behaviour, because it contradicts their notions of 'right' animal behaviour. That is, the observed behaviour is the right behaviour. It is what God created.
Like wise, the universal popularity of revenge movies, by people of all ages, all maturity levels, means it is from God. People find it enjoyable and satisfying seeing evil doers get their just deserts. Criminally minded people who don't like this aspect of human nature, surprise surprise. They can weep and gnash their teeth.
Did you know that the British burnt the Whitehouse because the American army burnt the house of a old Canadian woman in the war of 1812. The British did the right thing.
Anon 11:47, if you aren't gutless, what good reason do you have for remaining anonymous? I have no problem with anonymous postings unless you hide and shoot at others who reveal their identity. If you take shots at others, without telling us who you are, you must not have much confidence in your convictions. Maybe you aren't gutless, just lacking courage. Is that easier to swallow?
Thanks for explaining the red and blue pill. I missed the Matrix Trilogy.
Not sure why you would ask if I think I am wiser than God. The Allies were commanded by God to carpet bomb Germany at the end of WWII? You think every German was a crazy and deserved to die? I don't know you, but you strike me as totally unbalanced. Most zealots I have met are in their own little self-created world.
11:24, I see by the British spellings and grammar that you probably live in one of the crown countries or former colonies. So I can see where conditions for Christians in your area of the world may be quite different from ours here in the USA.
As far as traffic laws are concerned, in my state, if you don't synchronize your speed with prevailing traffic (generally about 80 mph on the freeway), then you become a hazard to other drivers and are likely to become involved in an accident. Besides, everyone's driving around with their guns in their cars, and if you are holding up traffic, insisting on going 65 in the fast lane because that's the speed limit, you could get shot. Law enforcement is mostly grace-based up to about 10 mph above the speed limit. If they nick you for speeding, there is further grace in that you can go to traffic school and get your ticket expunged. The only area where there is zero tolerance is for drinking and driving, which is something I will not do.
Was just concerned and didn't want you to see yourself as being under some sort of curse simply because of being a Christian. There are positives that more than compensate. I also know that there are parts of the world in which Christians are constantly persecuted and sometimes killed. If that is your case, then those of us who are believers should be remembering you in our prayers!
BB
Gerald, you look out for number one by with holding information on occasion. I assume you don't answer peoples enquiries about your finances or sex life. So why cannot you respect other peoples right to likewise say no.
Look at all your crackpot accusations. No wonder people have to hide their true identity from you. Hmm, and the topic was forgiveness. Consider how nasty and unforgiving you have become. Naughty boy Gerald, naughty, naughty.
BB, consider Geralds reaction to me. I rest my case.
Military destruction is all that works with crazies. Which is why Nazi Germany was carpet bombed near the end of the war. Probably a command from God.
Or do you think yourself wiser than God?
This is wholly incorrect.
The carpet bombing served to demotivate the German people to support the war effort.
It was a command by Bomber Harry and Bomber Command.
Original Armstrongism had the Germans as "the rod of mine anger". It would be unfair of God to unleash hell on those he had used if you are reasoning from an Armstrongite perspective.
But to remain on subject.
You focus on how to deal with crazies. But the subject is that this people you speak off has for large part been forgiven, after doing the right thing for 50 years, and continued to be productive members of mankind.
This would not have been possible under the "unforgiving" burden of terms of Versailles or if the entire people had been carpet bombed to oblivion.
As a matter of fact I believe the American are quite welcome in Vietnam aswell nowadays.
So you might ponder forgiveness once again as I pride myself in having stayed on topic quite succesful if I may say so.
nck
Anon 10:14, how can I have a reaction to you? I don't even know if you exist. My reaction to people like you is that you will not own your nasty accusations. When you try to slap me down, you know I am a real person. I'm not sure you even acknowledge your own existence.
I find it hilarious that you would use the word "crackpot" to define someone other than yourself.
Is that Jeremiah calling out to you again?? Is it time to carpet bomb Hamburg again? Reading bible prophecy is not serving you well.
I am happy you are resting your case. It is worn out.
Gerald's comment is persecution? Come on, I see worse than that said to people on a daily basis. Go find your safe space and put some lotion on your thin skin.
10:14, Because of the "anonymous" moniker, I has no idea that Gerald and I were even blogging with the same individual until you just rested your case.
Seriously though, I'm reminded of several other shared experiences. A lesbian I once knew complained that the police pulled her over for running a red light because she was gay. In fact, she invoked her sexual orientation any time something didn't go her way. How would they have even known???
A Mexican American biker who was covered head to foot with riding apparel so that you couldn't see so much as 1/8" of skin complained that the police officer who pulled him over for doing 95 mph in the HOV lane while drunk was prejudiced against Mexicans.
Because of being raised in WCG, I had to work hard in overcoming the paranoia that seems to be one of its more enduring bad fruits. That is most certainly a factor we all need to be aware of as a possibility. I think we just made some progress there!
BB
RSK I was referring to Gerald very negative attitude toward me. Why do you think he is trying to prised my name on this blog?
Nck, the carpet bombing demotivated the German people to support the war, Nazism, Hitler and German aggression. It worked since Germany has been quiet since the war.
God is in the drivers seat of world history rather than Bomber Harry or Bomber Command. The carpet bombing of Germany parallels Gods punishment of many nations in the old testament, meaning God might have intervened to make this happen.
The 'unforgiving' terms of Versailles were fulfilled by Germany borrowing the money, then defaulting on the loans. The left other nations to pay for Germanys war carnage. You are confusing victim and villain.
God does forgive individuals and nations, AFTER they have been punished for their crimes. Sort of like speeding and parking fines. Which is different from the 'forgiveness' being advocated by Dennis on this post.
1:52, Forgive after punishment? Cool, Bubba. What about Nineveh?
I like that old classic from days past here amongst the friends of dissidence. Someone once opined that there is no such thing as an ad hominem attack on an anonymous poster.
1:52
From a legal perspective.
Civil law (He ate my apple, but I want it back): involves the principle of "just compensation" since the apple is gone.
Criminal law: I do admit that besides "just compensation" etc it also involves the principle of "revenge" and "proportionality" in the administration of that revenge.
This stems from the philosophy that in criminal cases not only the "individual victim" was infringed upon but. by the crime the "peace" has been disturbed in society as a whole also.
So that's the philosophical basis for "societies administration" to administer a punishment that involves proportional revenge also.
"In the bible it also says "an eye for an eye". This implies proportionality and just compensation. Not "2 hands for a stolen apple" or "the death penalty for a stolen apple".
I will also grant you that "Gods hand" might be the driver behind world history. But I have serious doubts that he had anything to do with the rape of millions of German women in the final phase of the war.
My point is. The rape and the bombing were not THE punishment. To follow that rational would have wiped out the entire german (in this case) population. The bombing might have been part of the revenge part, which is also an element of punishment, but they did not constitute the punishment in itself.
As a matter of fact. An entire army might just decide. No! Enough is enough.
And I must reflect on the Jonah story where Jonah decided to not deliver a message that could prompt an entire army to do just that and reflect on themselves.
So yes a parking ticket is an infringement on society because taxes have not been paid. And society retaliates with more than just compensation.
There is no indication that the American prison works as it is today. Prisoners in general do to often not get released reformed or as a better person. More repeat offenders than german population in wwII.
The reason for that is that the American prison is mostly structured as a tool for punishment and revenge. That is and should be a part of the system but there should be more space for a perpetrator to redeem oneself by providing just compensation to the individual and not only pay societies dues.
An element of "forgiving" could be part of which constitutes more than just indifference.
Which means constitutionalized learning and humane living conditions in order to prevent repeat offense. Not to solely punish which leads to destruction only.
This is al legal talk and in 2000 years of modern legal history entire libraries have been written to explain the point more eloquently.
Forgiveness constitutes far more than legal talk about "offence, punishment, forgive". At some point it works for individuals and societies on a transformational deeper psychological level to move on and transform as a better unit.
I am not to decide that for another person on an individual level.
I have never been gravely injured in a death camp or suffered kidnap as many others have.
I am to explore how some managed to live on after having been on the receiving end of such ordeal and in the mean time "keep the peace" for society as a whole. But even in abiding by that what is set by the 50 percent and one, we should always look for improvement, albeit for experiences with prison systems beyond our borders, the care for victims, what is just compensation and to look for those that have been wronged maliciously and coping mechanisms of such persons that serve society as a whole best and not the individual only.
nck
4.24 PM Ninevehs repentance is rare. Typically, nations don't repent, are demolished by God, then the remnant perhaps repents. In the case of David and Bathsheba, David's child died, even after David repented. God refused to forgive Israel even after king Manasseh repented, due to excessive bloodshed.
Forgiveness is not some magic wand that wipes away reality as suggested by Dennis.
This war on reality (with (neo) religious window dressing) is typical of people who reject God and the bible.
It is quite obvious that you are being contrair in posting nonsense that nobody believes in in order for us to point out the obvious fallacies.
-There is no justice in a God killing a child because of adulterous parents
-There is no justice in a God killing all first borns because of the sins of their fathers that have nothing to do with the reason of their deaths
-There is no justice whatsoever in the God you espouse but cannot possibly believe in.
What would you say if we were to kill your child because of you posting rubbish.
You would probably find it unjustifiable, disproportionate inhumane, disconnected from the original crime and therefore serving no purpose.
There must be another interpretation to the God you present or may have read about through your particular lense.
nck
What I find to be curious, nck, is that a couple of the anti-theists will state that Mary was either promiscuous or raped by a Roman soldier (elliminating the miraculous), but rather than stating that maybe David and Bathsheba's child actually died of SIDS, they hold God and the miraculous totally accountable. Logical inconsistencies or fallacies often expose a "win at any cost" agenda.
BB
Nck, parents are either a blessing or a curse on their children. Where is your 'justice' of children born into a good, wealthy family. They don't 'deserve' that either. When children suffer for their parents sins, I blame the parents rather than God.
If you recall, the Egyptians were trying to kill all the newborn males of Israel, so they can hardly complain of injustice by the death of their own firstborn.
God said that everything He made is 'good,' which includes the good, bad parents thingy. I'II stick with believing God, rather than agreeing with Nck that God messed up.
Regarding your me 'posting nonsense' comment, wrong accusations are verbal attacks. This permeates this blog, as it super permeates all the COG slivers. The ministers have doctorates in verbally attacking members via false accusations. Most everyone plays the game of pretending that it's not verbal violence, but just constructive feedback.
This is a sin that just about everyone loves, and refuses to renounce. And they daydream that it is not condemned in the bible. Well it is. 'God abhors violence.'
Verbal violence is murder, just as much as physical violence is murder. God does not allow murders into his kingdom.
BB,
Yes that is interesting.
I must stay on topic as much as possible which is forgiving.
One person states that forgiving can only take place after revenge and punishment.
I agreed that revenge is an integral part of punishment also in the secular world.
I said however that I see no connection between the taking of the life of an innocent child and the promiscuous parents. That seems unjustifiable. It is not even a sacrifice it is presented as punishment.
Therefore I stated that there must be another explanation for the narrative. Otherwise I cannot reconcile it as just and fair.
9:43
I thought you were delibarately contrair and obnoxious. But you seem to really believe the "punishment" narrative. If a child suffers from inhereted disease because of family alcoholism, I would accept that the child suffers because of the parents sins.
But to kill the child, because the parents conceived it in promiscuity is a terrible thing.
I expressly did not say that God does not exist. I offered that there might be another interpretation to the story besides one of harsh punishment. But maybe not. Then at least I have publicly stated my dismay about that type of justice.
You are right. I verbally abused you because of my temper. That was not ok.
But to state that verbal violence IS murder, well that just ain't so.
Perhaps you will forgive me, or maybe not. Then cosmic retribution will need to restore the natural order and balance. But I hope not.
nck
How do you define "verbal violence"? Would that be threatening to put the hurt on someone?
So far as false accusations go, unless someone has an identifier (name, screen name) how can you have any degree of accountability when you can't tell who is posting what? Most of us don't have software which could identify others based on literary style, or IP address.
Was it fuxating that Armstrongite ministers mastered verbal violence? Absolutely! Was it part of the corporate culture that most members also learned and practiced themselves? No doubt. While some Christians may be trying to root it out as sin, this blog has all manner of people with a wide variety of personal codes, some who think it's ridiculous to equate verbal violence with murder, so you may as well get used to the way things are if you like to post. If you thought this was the Kingdom, you may want to allow your parachute to open!
nck says 'It is quite obvious that you are being contrair in posting nonsense that nobody believes in in order for us to point out the obvious fallacies.'
nck then proceeds to do just that himself.
Miguel, I'm not sure what you're saying. We all know that this world has all manner of beliefs, including this blog. Are you saying that morality is subjective and that there are no moral laws?
Why do you think that I believe this is the kingdom? Where did I say or imply that?
Nick, vérbal violence mentality tears people down. It weakens people. It's the opposite of Joshua being told to 'be strong, brave, and courageous.' It weakens peoples self image, self respect, self esteem and self confidence. Physically or mentally crippling others is murder. It doesn't have to be exclusively killing people.
8:01, what I am saying is that probably everyone who posts here has their own personal understanding, leading to the code by which they live and behave. It would be extremely arrogant for any of us as individuals to attempt to impose our particular code on everyone else. Morality has always been subject to interpretation, punishment and or mercy. That's why there are judges.
To wit: The Pharisees bringing a lady literally dripping spunk to Jesus for Him to condemn according to OT law. Jesus, extending forgiveness and mercy to the woman, counseling her to sin no more, and then turning it all back on the Pharisees who were hypocritical sinners themselves. In the OT, the hypocrite lynch mobs would have gleefully joined in a stoning party. And, that's the only example that the Pharisees had had as a pattern for their own lives.
So far, nobody's told anybody they hope Satan gets them or that they burn up in the Lake of Fire. Now that would really be verbal violence!
Another consideration is that 'Satan was a murderer from the beginning.' Unless angels can be injured or even destroyed, the murder must be verbal.
Anonymous said..."Verbal violence is murder, just as much as physical violence is murder. God does not allow murders into his kingdom." October 27, 2016 at 9:43 AM
If you want your gestalt of it, then you would be correct.
"When a man lies he murders some part of the world
These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives
All this I cannot bear to witness any longer
Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home"
by Cliff Burton "To Live Is To Die"
The problems will arise when we try to be objective about that which is only subjective. Keep that in mind. Nobody can be wrong about their own experiences, including the assumptions that we draw from those experiences. But of course, NOT UNTIL we decide to 'listen' to another point of view.
DBP
DBP there are thousands of web sites dedicated to abusive relationships. And many books on this topic. To call what these victims experience 'only subjective' is rubbing salt into their wounds. All verbal abuse weakens it victims, who often complain of feeling mentally sick. The experience is universal and hence objective. Many divorce settlement payouts reflect this.
Intellectualising away destructive behaviour is not a admirable trait.
You have misunderstood what I had wrote.
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