Thursday, July 24, 2025

Hebrew Roots Movement, Armstrongism, And Their False Assumptions



The Whole Bible? YES! 
The Hebrew Roots Movement? NO! 
Paul's Ethnic Gospel? Yes and No!


Herbert Armstrong and his followers often scolded traditional Christians for their focus on the New Testament and their apparent disregard for the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). He and his followers bragged that they used the WHOLE BIBLE - NOT just a small portion of it. Now, while we should all be willing to acknowledge that traditional Christianity's use and understanding of the "Old" Testament has often been woefully inadequate, other folks (like Armstrong and his followers) have swung to the opposite extreme and have over corrected for the insufficiency of their more traditional brothers and sisters in the faith!

These folks point out that the early Church was entirely Jewish in nature, and that the only Scriptures available to Christ and his apostles were those of the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament). Once again, while I would not characterize this observation as inaccurate, I would point out that it doesn't represent the WHOLE story of First Century Christianity! Unfortunately, in their attempt to correct how more traditional Christians have used and understood Scripture, they have often ignored the work and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples in the New Testament! To put it more bluntly, they have effectively placed themselves under the terms of God's Covenant with Israel! (Armstrong adopted Torah Sabbath and festival observance, clean and unclean meats, tithing, etc.)

In this connection, notice these statements taken from a website of the Hebrew Roots Movement:

The Hebrew Roots Movement is a general term used for an emerging grassroots spiritual awakening taking place worldwide with Christians returning to the original first century faith, beliefs, and understanding of the Scriptures as taught by the Messiah, Early Church and Apostles. Hebrew Roots is not a denomination or church, but rather a mindset seeking to emulate Jesus (Y'shua) as much as possible.

Hebrew Roots Christians are often called "Whole Bible Believers" due to our teaching of and obedience to the Word of God (All of It). We follow the first-century foundation of the faith: that every disciple of Jesus (Y'shua) is to walk (live) just as he did, in obedience to the Old Testament laws and commandments of God.

The 1st Century Church and apostles, in following the example of the Jesus (Y'shua), also obeyed and taught the Torah as the foundation to the walk of every disciple. This included the Apostle Paul as seen in Acts 24:14, Romans 2:13, Romans 2:20, Romans 3:31, and Titus 2:13-14. Hebrew Roots Christians do not obey God's laws to be saved, they obey God's laws because they are saved. They have a deep love and passion for God (1 John 5:3) which produces a deep desire to live their daily lives in a way that is pleasing to God - that is, in a way that attempts to live without sin (without offending God).

See - Hebrew Roots of Christianity (above quotations)
See - The Hebrew Roots Movement: What It Is and What It Isn't

In defense of these teachings, like Armstrong, they employ a number of "proof-texts" (some of the same ones used by Mr. Armstrong and his followers):

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. - I John 3:4, KJV

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.- I John 3:4, ESV

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - I John 5:3, KJV

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. - I John 5:3, ESV

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets...Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19, KJV

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19, ESV

The problems with both the Hebrew Roots Movement and Armstrongism originate in a bunch of false assumptions which are NOT rooted in Scripture or the history of early Christianity:

1. They assume that the provisions of Torah represented the eternal and universal manifestation of God's Law - instead of the terms of God's Covenant with the ancient Israelites.

2. They assume that because Jesus, his apostles, and the Jerusalem Church observed the Sabbath and Holy Days that all Christians are obligated to follow that example.

3. They assume that the New Covenant is really only a slightly modified/enhanced/updated version of the Old Covenant.

4. They assume that their devotion to Torah identifies them as the obedient of God and is proof that they revere ALL of the Bible, not just some Proverbs, Psalms, and the New Testament (like those poor misguided Traditional Christians).

5. They assume that the original teachings of Christ and the Apostles were corrupted over time, and that most of the visible Church adopted pagan customs and celebrations and strayed from obedience to God's Law.

Now, as this blog has pointed out in many different posts over the years, ALL of these assumptions are FALSE! The TRUTH is that they are guilty of the very thing which they accuse Traditional Christianity of doing! They cherry-pick the Scriptures and history to support their teachings about Torah observance - instead of reaching conclusions based on an objective evaluation of ALL of the evidence. Consider the following (think of this as an abbreviated summary of a number of the past posts on this blog):

1. Over and over again, the commandments and rituals of Torah were addressed to the Children of Israel! (Exodus 12:3, 47, 50, 19:3-5, 20:1-2, 25:2, Leviticus 4:2, 12:2, 23:2, Numbers 5:6, 6:2, 27:8, Deuteronomy 1:1, 4:1, 5:1, etc.)

2. Jesus, his apostles, and the Jerusalem Church were all practicing Jews (including Paul). Hence, we would EXPECT to find them observing the provisions of Torah! Moreover, as Christ came to this earth to fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures (Torah, Prophets, and Writings), we would EXPECT to find him doing just that!

3. Once the Church finally began to carry Christ's Gospel to the Gentile world, the great Jerusalem Council decided that Gentile Christians would NOT have to become Jews and observe the provisions of Torah! (Acts 15:1-35 and Galatians 2, 3)

4. The Old Testament makes very clear that the Children of Israel repeatedly violated the terms of God's Covenant with them, and that he eventually divorced and disowned them! (Isaiah 50:1, Jeremiah 3:8, 11:10, 31:32, Hosea 8:1, Zechariah 11:10) Likewise, both testaments make plain that God intended to make a NEW Covenant with the people of Israel and the other nations of the earth. (Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews 8:1-13, 12:24)

5. If we truly accept Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, we must believe that he represented the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures. We must believe that he came to this earth to fulfill them, and that he accomplished that mission. Indeed, this is the basis of the Christian faith: that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled the symbolism AND requirements of Torah perfectly, and that he offered himself as an innocent - an entirely righteous individual - to pay the penalty for OUR SINS! (Isaiah 53:1-12, Matthew 1:21, 5:17, Mark 15:28, Luke 4:16-21, 24:44, John 1:29, 45, 13:18, 17:12, 19:24, 28, 36, Acts 5:31, 13:38, 28:23, Romans 3:21, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14, 2:17) I have also written a number of posts demonstrating that the Hebrew Scriptures pointed to Christ (especially Torah).

6. Christ identified two of the commandments of Torah as encompassing the whole of the Law: Love for God, and each other. Christ identified these commandments as the ones to be written on the hearts of his followers, and the things that would identify them as his disciples to the world. (Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 7:12, 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-31, Luke 10:25-28, John 13:31-35, 15:9-17, Romans 13:9-10, I Corinthians 13, James 2:8-13, I John 2:7-11, 3:1-24, 4:7-21) Please note that the Two Great Commandments summarize the Ten Commandments given to Israel, and the Ten summarize all of the 613 individual commandments of Torah which reflected the terms of God's covenant with Israel. In other words, ALL of the other commandments of Torah are elaborations of the TWO! Why did Israel need such a detailed list of commandments? Because they were mostly a carnal people who did NOT have access to the Holy Spirit!

7. ALL of the practices of the early Christian community reflected an emphasis on Jesus of Nazareth and his work (including the celebration of the Eucharist, Resurrection, repentance, baptism, fellowshipping, gift of the Holy Spirit, birth of Christ, his mother, works and writings of his apostles, prayers, songs, healings, exorcisms, etc.). Indeed, history reflects the fact that Christianity was very effective in almost completely eradicating paganism and supplanting it with faith in Jesus as Messiah! In other words, the narrative that paganism eventually swallowed up and supplanted Christianity is the exact OPPOSITE of what history reveals on this subject!

Now, having said all of that, more traditional Christianity has tended to neglect the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, many of them seem to have forgotten that those writings ALL pointed to Jesus Christ, and that the apostles and early Church employed them to teach about him! Nevertheless, they have generally understood that Christ has fulfilled the requirements and meaning of Torah for them. Likewise, they have generally understood that they will NOT be justified or rewarded by/for obeying the commandments of Torah! (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11, 24)

Now we come to the question of Paul's Ethnic Gospel (a post by James Wood about a book by Jason Staples for First Things. Wood writes:

According to Staples, Paul’s gospel represents not an abandonment of Israel’s ethnic identity but its restoration—accomplished paradoxically through the incorporation of Gentiles. The inclusion of Gentiles is not a detour from Israel’s story but a key to its fulfillment. Paul proclaims not salvation from ethnicity, but rather an ethnic salvation. His gospel is steeped in the “restorationist” hopes of Second Temple Judaism. In this historical-theological framework, a distinction emerges: “Jews” designates the descendants of the southern kingdom of Judah, whereas “Israel” refers to the full twelve tribes, especially the lost northern tribes who were exiled and assimilated by Assyria. The northern tribes’ exile constituted an “ethnic death,” as these Israelites were scattered among and absorbed by the Gentiles—a process Staples calls “gentilization.” Their recovery required not merely return but resurrection. And this resurrection, Paul proclaims, occurs through the in- gathering of Gentiles—its partial accomplishment during Paul’s lifeand its future complete fulfillment. Since Israel has been scattered among and assimilated by the nations, her salvation depends on salvation’s coming to Gentiles (Rom. 11:11–26). God, in his providence, uses this dilemma to accomplish his original promise for his chosen people: that the blessing of Abraham should come to all nations (Gal. 3:14; cf. Rom. 11:12). As Staples provocatively puts it, “Where Israel had become gentilized, now Gentiles were effectively being Israelitized, transformed from one ethnicity to another and integrated into the ethnic people of Israel.”

Yes, Paul certainly did teach that Gentiles had been transformed into Abraham's descendants and coheirs of the promises made to him (Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:5-9). He also taught that There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:28-29, ESV) And, in that same epistle to the saints at Rome, he wrote: For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. (Romans 8:14-17, ESV) In other words, whether we are Israelites or Gentiles, our faith in Christ (and what he has done for us) makes us God's children and co-heirs with Christ of the promises made to Abraham.

We must never forget that both Abraham and his physical descendant(s) were chosen to bring the blessings of God to all of humankind, NOT because they were special, or the sole object of his attention and affection! In a sense, Paul's teaching is that God has used the Israelites to bless humankind, and humankind will be employed to bless the Israelites - and BOTH are SAVED through Jesus Christ! What do you think?

 Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 1John 2:7; 2John 1:5.

"Old"? "From the beginning"?

The two great commandments are a summary of the commandments on how to love one another, and God.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

It never ceases to amaze me how easily the folks who fall for this stuff chuck all of their ancestors and other kinfolks. By saying that all of this Torah stuff is necessary for Christians, they are condemning the vast majority of practicing Christians for the last 1,800 years! I know, I know - they'll have their chance in the Second resurrection. That still means their entire human lifetimes on this planet were wasted - their profession of Christ was meaningless! It just doesn't make sense to me.

Anonymous said...

Hence, those 613 commandments are rendered superfluous. Love fulfills Torah. If you truly love your neighbor, you won't be lying to him/her, stealing from him/her, committing adultery with his/her spouse, etc. Scripture also states that love for God is demonstrated by loving your neighbors. Love is what CHRIST explicitly demanded from his followers - NOT the scrupulous legalism of the Pharisees! Again, Torah pointed to Christ - who met its requirements for us and rendered our observance of it redundant. If we have the mind of Christ, God's Holy Spirit, the 613 commandments of Torah are unnecessary!

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:25:06 PM PDT
Well said.
The Law was but a tutor to bring us to Christ.

Anonymous said...

Laws given associated with the Levitical Priesthood have been removed (Greek word for "change" in verse 12b is translated "removing" in Heb 12:27) - Hebrews 7:11-12...... include tithing (OH NO!?). When was the "law"-verse 11 rewritten if that was the change of the law?

nck said...

Interesting statement Lonnie. "Condemning" the Priests perhaps, but not Great Grandma Annie who never wronged anyone or anything except of course being human/flesh in the Manichean way.....

Nck

Anonymous said...

Sabbath Christians have NOT ignored the works and teachings of Jesus Christ. That is a absolute lie.

jim said...

Among the many errors of Armstrongism, it is heretical to believe the Gospel was so weak as to only convert the very very few that Armstrong fabricated through history. The Gospel has power and salvation and Christianity grew outrageously. But, Armstrongists devalue the work of Christ and the Spirit by denying their work in a Christian's repentance and belief in Christ.

Their idea of the gospel is devalued because they deny the power of the Gospel to lead to conversion (except those fabricated few) and believe the Gospel acts more as a witness to all who don't heed it as they believe. So corrupted! Even the Gospel is a club of in the hands of the Armstrongist. In Armstrongist fashion it is: "The Gospel, you have been warned"

I disagree with the First Things author. Gentiles are not Israelitized. They are Christianized. They are sons of God and their faith links them to all the faithful like Abraham.

Anonymous said...

The fact that you are distinguishing yourself from or even within the body of Christ by a “law” that you keep, would suggest otherwise.

What about this one “circumcised Christian”?

Boasting in the law is not what we are called to boast in. Picking one element out of the law and declaring that to be your righteousness means the curse of the law still falls on you. I recommend reading Galatians. We do not have any righteousness apart from Jesus Christ in us. To think otherwise is to stir up pride. Not hard for a human to do.

Dan said...

I met a man two years ago in Walmart who claimed to be a sabbath keeper. He had some wild ideas on why the titanic sunk. What struck me the most was when he said he carried a gun in case he came across any witches. And then he showed me the gun in his pocket. In his mind he was fulfilling the letter of the law found in the OT. I told him that was a very bad idea and that he should let God take care of the witches.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

"Sabbath Christians have NOT ignored the works and teachings of Jesus Christ. That is a(n) absolute lie."

According to the tags listed on the United Church of God's own website:
Tags
Passover (495)
Faith (421)
Holy Spirit (329)
Holy Days (310)
Unleavened Bread (301)
Kingdom of God (296)
Jesus Christ (295)
Pentecost (282)
Feast of Tabernacles (254)
Feast of Trumpets (211)
Of the 85 July sermons listed on that website only 6 were about Christ and/or his teachings.
From the Hebrew Roots website's list of SPECIFIC TOPICS:
♦ The Deity of Jesus (Y"shua).
♦ The 7th Day Sabbath of God.
♦ The Torah (Law of God). Sin is Lawlessness.
♦ What True Repentance Looks Like.
♦ The Biblical Holy Days (like Passover, Pentecost).
♦ Understanding Paul
♦ What Does it Mean to Be a True Disciple?
On the Herbert W Armstrong searchable Library, out of 134 booklets listed, only ONE focused exclusively on the subject of Jesus Christ!
The 28 "Fundamental Beliefs" of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church:

Holy Scriptures
The Trinity
God the Father
God the Son (Jesus Christ)
God the Holy Spirit
Creation
Nature of Humanity
The Great Controversy
The Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ
The Experience of Salvation
Growing in Christ
The Church
The Remnant and its Mission
Unity in the Body of Christ
Baptism
The Lord's Supper (Communion)
Spiritual Gifts and Ministries
Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary
The Second Coming of Christ
Death and Resurrection
The Millennium and the End of Sin
The New Earth
The Gift of Prophecy
The Law of God
The Sabbath
Stewardship
Christian Behavior
Marriage and the Family

Anonymous said...

It seems to some that this is too simplistic but it is true. Jesus did away with the old to establish the new. He didn't mix the old with the new. He simply established a better covenant.

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones,

Well-reasoned and nicely done.

Mom-and-apple-pie statements about The Law (Torah) can be an emotional diversion from solid and rational theology. For a group to trumpet that they virtuously “keep the whole Law” is to reject the decisions of the Jerusalem Council and thereby reject one of the founding charters of Christianity. And if keeping the whole law is a predicate for Godly obedience, presumably leading to salvation, one wonders why Paul had such vitriolic truck with The Circumcision Party. I often get that hollow and uneasy feeling that some people don’t really read the Bible – they only read denominational literature – the Fox News effect.

I found Staples’ ideas to be novel. That the dispersion of the Jews essentially Judaizes the Gentiles is an interesting argument that has traction but does not point to a necessary principle. It is anthropology rather than soteriology. I am descended in part from Sephardic Jews. Based on historical evidence, it is likely that some of my ancestors fled the Jerusalem area after the Tribulation in 70 AD. Hence, I am descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I consider myself a Gentile because that is by far my dominant heritage. While my Jewish line of descent gives me an interesting purview on history, this ancestry has been overtaken by events. Like every Christian, I am a spiritual Jew who has been happily grafted into the tame olive tree.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10:10 wrote, “Sabbath Christians have NOT ignored the works and teachings of Jesus Christ. That is a absolute lie.”

We need to unpack this sound-bite a bit. There is a sense in which “Sabbath Christians” have ignored Jesus, his works and his teachings. If a Sabbath Christian believes that strict Torahic Sabbath observance is required for salvation, then there is problem. Salvation is only in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not in Jesus Christ plus your own perfect Sabbath keeping. Paul said of such people, “You who want to be reckoned as righteous by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

Scout

R.L. said...

Good thing that man isn't part of Church of God Assembly. There might be a manslaughter investigation (at least) underway.

Anonymous said...

Distinguishing? Labels are so limiting. These type of blogs deal in labels, I personally don't. 'The Way', 'Disciples', 'Followers', 'Christians', 'Sabbath Christians'.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 10:10 comment never mentioned UCG nor Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Anonymous said...

No Sabbath Christian I was around, some years ago, ever declared 'strict torahic Sabbath observance is required for salvation'.
Sabbath Christians keep the Sabbath to learn about God and to break bread in fellowship. In today's busy 24/7 world when can a person learn from others about Jesus, if not at a specific time to gather?

Is it not in the realm of self-righteousness to decree you know the inner thinking of why others observe a 7th day Sabbath. You cannot read peoples minds to label everyone the same. You must be perfect yourself to do that, as that's quite an heddy insult.

Dan said...

From what I gathered he went to a Sunday church. He goes around walmart saying praise Jesus to anyone who will listen and tries to hand out pamphlets. They did not have any church name attached to it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:40:03 AM PDT
‘Sunday Christians’ keep Sunday to learn about God and to break bread in fellowship also. And they believe they are saved by grace and that through faith, and not by adherence to any particular day of observance and worship. And in today’s busy world, fellowship on any day is a welcome escape from this insane society. And we should not be self righteous in judgment as to why these brethren gather when they do. We know not and cannot read their inner heart. That Christ is preached, in that I rejoice.

Anonymous ` said...

Anonymous 8:40

Apparently, you are not an Armstrongist. I have never heard the term "Sabbath Christian" used among Armstrongists. The term may be used among other Millerite sects. If you are an Armstrongist, then you do not understand their theology. They believe that keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation.

BTW, you can make a logical argument without being rude. Being boorish is not itself a credible argument. My guess is that you came from somewhere else in the Millerite realm and are not familiar with Armstrongist theology. From your many misspellings I would guess also that English is not your first language.

Scout

nck said...

Thinking about it.

I don't think Armstrongism teaches that keeping the Sabbath is required for Salvation.

It was taught that keeping the Sabbath is a sign of the true Church, which by definition was where God was "working most" to perfect his Saints and that working would be very helpful macro and micro to Gods plan...... which in the end would serve All who had ever lived, through his Grace.

Keeping the Wednesday would be most unbenificial and if done on purpose, a character flaw even, not favoring his plans. Yet like GrGr Grandmother Annie, wednesday keepers could still be nice people.

Likewise, many people could be great amateur cyclists if they train.... Yet this still does not make them participants in the Tour de France, leave alone eligible for the Yellow Sweater....... Still the could amateur could through sheer mental power or genetics be the better cyclist..... Only to receive more than a treadmill diploma this would require the Grace of the Main Sponsor of the event..... whilst the people on tv are already participating officially within that Grace....

Nck

nck said...

By extension anyone making "elitist" claims about the participants of the Tour de France does not understand the process through God is working... (although it is true in the Leninist sense for the workers who are equal).

Also a person who thinks he can decide who is a Christian rather than identify is assigning meaning to a word that is not even in the biblet. This is exactly the reason why the Catholic Church chose to distinghuish between members who were obviously realier of the realest saints because of the miracles that had been performed as separate from the not so easy to distinguish realy saints too.... yet all are subject to Grace.
Nck

Anonymous said...

I suppose you take great pride again in such ice cold subtle cruelty.
I was not rude, nor made many misspellings. Time and again many of the named contributors on here write horrendous spelling mistakes.
But I can understand your inner fury, the second time around apostacy hasn't gone to plan, nor shall it.

Byker Bob said...

Does anybody remember getting baptized? You needed to repent of your sins, and the minister had to be convinced that you were sincere. Proof of sincerity included giving up unclean meats, separating from the person with whom you had been living in adultery if either of you had been married before, keeping the sabbath and holydays in accordance with "God's Sacred Calendar" tithing, praying and studying your Bible daily, cleaning up your speech, and believing that these are the end times and Jesus Christ will return soon. At one point this was 1975. Also, up to a certain point in time, you had to throw away any medications, and trust in God for healing.

Correct Sabbath keeping was in accordance with Herbert W. Armstrong's modifications of Torah. If it was required to "qualify" for baptism, it was to be a continual part of your new life, one that would "qualify" you for the free gift of salvation. To those who disagree, I would remind you that lying about what HWA taught, is breaking another one of the ten commandments.

BB

Anonymous said...

NCK 9:49 wrote, “I don't think Armstrongism teaches that keeping the Sabbath is required for Salvation.”

Wow, NCK. I thought you were conversant with Armstrongism. Of course, Armstrongism teaches that keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation. For them, keeping the seventh day was one of the Ten Commandments (for Christians, Jesus is our Sabbath). To not observe the seventh day was to sin. And sin leads to death unless repented of. And for Armstrongists, repentance is about actually producing perfect works. And only if you repent can you receive salvation. In fact, keeping every law in the Torah, except for the sacrifices and the so-called "ministry of death", is required for salvation because Armstrongists believe that the Torah in its full jot and tittle form was written on their hearts.

If you need a refresher, read Rod Meredith’s article titled, “Is Obedience to God Required for Salvation? Can a Christian Disobey God and Still be Saved?”

That is why Mr. Sabbath Christian’s attitude about this places him outside the pale of Armstrongism.

Scout

BP8 said...

One of our more prominent and scholarly contributors has shared that "I often get that hallow and uneasy feeling that some people don't really read the Bible".

I find that interesting, for many times when Scripture is read back to him and quoted in defense of a differing opinion, it is met with labels and accusations of proof texting, cherry picking, or other selected sound bites . . .

. . .they (the scriptures) are not properly exegeted.

. . .the Bible is not incontrovertible.

. . . literal verses metaphor, and so on.

Sometimes and on somethings perhaps he is correct, but NOT always! Often it is a complete cop out and a misrepresentation of intent.

Byker Bob said...

12:04, what do you mean by "second time around apostacy" (sic)?

I too, wondered if perhaps English is your second language based not only on spelling malfunctions, but also on the ways in which you choose your words. As an example, we would not normally describe ice cold cruelty as being subtle. Quite the opposite! Also, one does not "write" horrendous spelling mistakes, one "makes" them.

I'd like to hear more about your ideas, and to perhaps understand your background. If you could pick a screen name (click on the arrow next to anonymous, a box will appear, click on Name/Url and type in your screen name, and then click "continue", or just sign your post with a screen name, it would help. I personally would give you a pass on your spelling and grammar if I knew that you had grown up speaking, say, Swahili, Tagalog, Punjabi, or any language other than English. I would still counter and contest your beliefs if you are an Armstrongite, but would make allowances for the other factors.

Does that seem fair to you?

BB

BP8 said...

NCK 949
Doctrinally speaking, I agree with you, the Church did not teach sabbath keeping was required for salvation, although, from an administrative perspective and for control purposes, it often appeared that they did.

Regardless, the purpose of the law (any law) is not now and never has been for the achievement of salvation. To suggest otherwise is not only error, but an invalid proposition, "for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Rom.3:20)", not to implement salvation.

I think most here recognize that transgression of the laws against murder, idolatry, adultery, stealing and lying can have dire consequences and can influence and damage a Christian's standing, even to the point of forfeiting one's relationship with God if repentance is not forthcoming (see 1 Corinthians 5, Galatians 6:7-9, Rev. 2:5, 16, 22-23, 3:16).

Is obedience " required " for salvation? Does obedience give or produce salvation, or play any role in the 3 stages of salvation? Is it a fruit of salvation?

Hinting that all physical sabbath keeping is for the purpose of earning one's salvation might be a good sound bite, but it leaves many potent questions unanswered and is a blatant misrepresentation of most peoples intent.

Byker Bob said...

Oops, forgot one. One was also required to quit smoking prior to baptism. According to some peoples' logic, if you had to keep the sabbath in order to be baptised, but then it was not a salvation issue, I guess you could start smoking again, too, except of course on the Day of Atonement.

BB

Anonymous said...

Was studying up on the Essenes recently (hat tip to Lee!). Did you know that they actually refrained from defecating on the sabbath?

Anonymous said...

Sabbath was always a salvation issue. For decades, I watched people being kicked out of the church who worked on the sabbath. To be a true follower of God's word and to receive his blessing of eternal life, it was to be a sabbath keeper. Also, skipping a holy day service got you kicked out, too. Most of the time, they were publicly disfellowshiped with names read from the podium and marked.

Anonymous said...

Always interrupting Scouts and Miller Jones debates, that don't involve you. You must be the attack dog.

Anonymous said...

Hinting that all physical Sabbath keeping is for the purpose of earning one's salvation might be a good sound bite, but it leaves many potent questions unanswered and It's a blatant misrepresentation of most people's intent.

I wholeheartedly agree. I have never heard anyone say they keep the Sabbath to earn Salvation. Far from it. There has been for decades whole series of teaching on the Words of Jesus and teaching on the character of Jesus Christ. Not in all COGs, but I experienced it.

I think honest debate has been removed from this blog. In recent weeks the outlook is a trio of mean spirited attack, on any comment, even attacking the quoting of scripture as something 'Satan does'. Underhanded and in your face insults are thrown about, for what purpose? To bully and intimidate? What is really Christian about that treatment of people? Talking about being a Christian is easy but walking the walk is what people are judged on.

Byker Bob said...

Oh, 11:16! I just sprayed my iPad screen with a mouthful of beer and a bite of one of Aunt Minnie's bean and onion sandwiches over that one! Tears in my eyes and a belly ache from excessive laughter, Dude!

BB

nck said...

Well yes.

To obey a red or a green traffic light does not qualify a citizen for anything......(alttough the widows mite might)

Likewise playing ON the notes is not music at all..... since the magic happens between those "notes"....

Nck

BP8 said...

I would like to add an addendum to what I previously wrote at 955.

I think we have all, even with the best intentions, fallen into the trap of forgetting "God's righteousness and going about to establish our own righteousness", because that's how the old man is wired, being our default setting. Because of this it's easy to fall into legalism, focusing on do's and don'ts, and overlooking the fundamental aspects of God's saving grace.

The related topics of sin, salvation, and obedience are all covered in the book of Romans. Chapters 1:16-5:11 deal with " acts" of sin, products of the old nature, the fruits of the old tree, while chapters 5:12-8:39 deal with the principal of "sin", the old nature and tree itself, our propensity toward sin. The plan of salvation is primarily concerned with the changing of this propensity, not actions. Upon this change, actions will start taking care of themselves.

Whether HWA understood this difference, I don't know. A clue might be in how the church understood Romans 6:1-2. The KJV says, " shall we continue in sin that grace may abound"? The church's paraphrase was, 'shall we continue breaking God's law that grace may abound'? Paul's response in verse 2, "how shall we that are dead to sin (dead to lawbreaking??) live any longer therein"?

I always thought that whole paraphrase sounded weird. Therefore, I prefer the late Jimmy Swaggart's explanation: " Shall we continue in sin (not actions, but following the sin principle of our old nature) that grace may abound? How long shall we that are dead to the sin principle, dead to our fallen nature, live any longer therein"? I think the context and the verses following brings this out! For me it makes more sense.

Armstrong may have known this difference but just didn't want to relinquish his supposed authority (Ephesians 4:11-14) to the Holy spirit. Because of ego and a lust for power, he took the HS completely out of the equation, and chose the approach that we can kill off the old nature by doing "things", a dangerous pit we have all fallen into at some time or another. Of course, his concern was not the people, but like the pharisees, maintaining and supporting his power base for as long as possible. Having the church grow in grace would have been counterproductive.

Obedience to God and the proper role of the law are both holy, just, and good and have their place in the scheme of things. But in the end, Scout has it right:

" Salvation has much more to do with the heart than action"!!!

Byker Bob said...

BP8 @9:55, Humans being as they are, I suppose that each individual derives their own personalized meanings from what they read in the Bible, or were taught by their preferred spiritual leaders. As a group, those to whom we refer as Armstrongites, or alternatively Armstrongists, want to be in the Kingdom. Worldwide + splinters read about the TGCOL (two great commandments of the Lord) and interpret the first, Loving God with all your heart, in light of expressing their love for God through keeping as many of the laws of the Old Covenant as possible. Let's not call it a requirement. They do see it, however, as a mandate, especially as regards the Sabbath.

HWA may have watched TV westerns on the sabbath, or gone out dancing with one of his daughters on Friday nights, but church members wouldn't have even qualified as Laodiceans if it were known that they were doing these things on the sabbath back in the day.

The church had the bad habit of couching their language with regard to certain activities throughout its history, and they still do it today. If you wanted to be a member in good standing during the '50s, '60s and '70s, you were admonished to eschew doctors, (except for diagnosis which would help prayer become more specific, or the setting of bones) and the medical profession. No X-Rays, no medication. However, if things went wrong as a result of your obedience, you were instructed to tell the authorites that this was your own personal belief, and not to look to the church to back you up, or alibi you to those authorities. Same with Selective Service during the 'Nam. You were on your own with the authorities. The church had a special department set up specifically to help members deal with Selective Service issues. But you were only to express your reasons to the officials for being a conscientious objector as your own personal conviction. Leave the church out of it. Just try joining the USMC, and dropping in on your local sabbath services while on leave! You'd find out just how optional military service was. Same with jury duty, and to a limited extent childrens' small pox vaccinations.

People may say that they don't keep the sabbath to earn salvation. The truth is one could be put out of the church for not keeping it. This happened routinely. Once put out, no salvation unless compliance and reinstatement. Substitution axiom: "Things known to be the same are equal to each other." And they are treated as being the same. It does not matter how any of us might rationalize.

BB

Anonymous said...

Scout and Lonnie are not debating, 11:16. They are Christians, generally in agreement, and their posts add a little color and depth to one anothers.