UPDATED: Dave Pack Humiliated Again: Another Logic-Challenged Dave Pack Video Exposed

 

Updated: part of the original post was missing below

Submitted by Michael:

YouTube critic Paulogia has done another episode on breaking down the nonsense of a David C. Pack (DCP) video, as usual with research and well-done graphics behind it.

Most here will probably agree that Dave is one doozy of a blowhard, charlatan, and tyrant, even bordering on if not psychotic, but here Paulogia is only dealing with the logical non-sequiturs and sloppy arguments in one particular DCP video.

Some notable time points:

 

at 1:16, DCP states:

"Any true god would never leave his creation - mankind - in doubt about whether he exists"

 

This is quite the statement from Pack, and I wonder whether he realizes that he's making an argument *against* his own position here? Since it's an undeniable fact that agnostics/atheists exist (we must all agree that they exist, whether or not one agrees with their position), there is clearly a portion of mankind that is at least "in doubt about whether he exists". And Pack is arguing that no true god would ever allow this situation to occur. (What conclusion does that suggest, Dave?)

at 7:00, DCP makes the following shocking statement:

"Now think hard, who is more intelligent, God who made perfect food, or men who find every possible way to alter and degrade it before consuming it?"

 

As Paulogia notes, the very foods shown in DCP's own video are decidedly *not* foods as "created by God", but were bred and artificially selected by generations of humans to be more palatable and convenient (bananas, apples, avocados, etc.). The original versions of these were almost inedible, or at least not as pleasurable and nutritious as their current forms.

 

And altering foods is often the only possible way to consume them. For example, try to eat rice or wheat off the plant without considerable processing and cooking. The statement by DCP simply makes no logical or practical sense.

Not a logical fallacy, but just had to chuckle at this at 22:50:

"I have *personally* seen a photograph of [Lucy's] supposed skeleton...."  

As if viewing a photograph (probably on the internet) somehow gives DCP extra credence? Honestly, I thought he was going to say something like he had personally seen Lucy's bones at the National Museum of Ethiopia, but no, not even that lol, just "I have personally seen a photograph", as have hundreds of millions of other people on this planet. What was the point, really, of that boast?

Those interested can view the video if desired, but WCGers, in particular, will appreciate how DCP ends his videos:

"Until next time this is David C. Pack saying: Goodbye friends",

Which is funny, because it never ceases to amaze how some of the splinters feel they have to emulate HWA in every single facet, yes, even in using the exact wording to sign off lol. Even down to using the middle initial, as "Herbert W. Armstrong" used to do. That is one sign of those in a cult, wanting to emulate their cult hero in every form possible.

All in all, DCP drags out old, poorly researched points, most quoted from popular books that have been critiqued and debunked in the past ad nauseum.

Incidentally, the original DCP video has a sizable 623,000 views, what's up with that? And RCG site has 193,000 subscribers? This seems awfully fishy for a splinter which can't possibly have more than 10K members if that many.

Here is the first article we did on this series by Paulogia if you missed it: 

Dave Pack Gets Annihilated In New Video Examining His "Does God Exist?" Video

Two of These Things Are Not Like the Other Ones

 One of these two books is worth your time...

Acceptance of Evolution is a DENIAL of Science!

"Well, actually human beings started in what is called Mesopotamia.

Africans did not invent religion.

God gave instructions to the first human beings, as well as intervened with others as we can see in books of the Bible, beginning with Genesis.

We do not know the skin color of the first people who invented tools. Since the Bible indicates that the inventor of musical instruments, Jubal (Genesis 4:21), was likely dark skinned (cf. Genesis 4:16-20), maybe the first tool inventor was dark skinned, but maybe not. The Bible is NOT a white supremacist text"

"Well, I want to unmask the lie that evolution is scientific.

It is not.

Acceptance of evolution is a denial of science."

Dr. Robert Thiel

OR

  

Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism

"Religious fundamentalists and biblical literalists present any number of arguments that attempt to disprove evolution. Those with a sympathetic ear often fail to critically examine these creationist claims, leading to an ill-informed public and, perhaps more troubling, ill-advised public policy. As Aron Ra makes clear, however, every single argument deployed by creationists in their attacks on evolution is founded on fundamental scientific, religious, and historical falsehoods–all of them. 

Among their most popular claims is that evolution is a religion, that there are no transitional species, that there are no beneficial mutations, and that supposedly sacred scripture is the infallible word of God. Yet, as the evidence and data plainly show, each of these claims is demonstrably and unequivocally false. There is simply no truth to creationism whatsoever, and the entire enterprise rests on a foundation of falsehoods. This book explains and exposes the worst of these lies, and should be read by all who honestly care about following the evidence no matter where it might lead in pursuit of the truth."

and too...

One of these two videos is worth your time...

Childish Cartoons that would never make it past Sunday School

or

Refuting Dave Pack's (And by extension Robert Thiel)  Irrefutable Proof of God

"Such bold claims! I took the bait and had to dispute refute and absolutely disprove allegedly 

indisputable irrefutable absolute proof of God. Mirror this one quickly, kids. 

This guy likes to control and discussion to keep it one-sided and in his favor."

Aron Ra

Thank God For Evolution

Evolution has always been a hot topic in Armstrongism. Well, at least WE thought it was. GTA was well know to mock the theory of evolution and published numerous books on it.  To the ordinary lay person in WCG this information was all they need to know about evolution and never studied into it further.  If HWA or GTA did not say it they could care less.  Most church members were totally ignorant about what evolution was all about.  

Since almost all the men in the COG's who write about the subject have never received higher education outside of Ambassador College they have no clue what is involved either. They are not up to speed on recent discoveries.  They do not even consider that there is another side to the argument which they have espoused all these years. 

A thinking person would inform themselves about the topic they wish to debate or critique.  They read, and read and read.  The COG leaders and members only look up a booklet about 20 or so pages long and take that as God's final word on the matter. 

Leaving Armstrongism led me to many interesting conversations with deeply religious people who believe in evolution.  It does not shatter their faith or destroy the message that scripture attempts to bring out. 

Here are a couple of books that might interest some here:

 "The earth is old, and animals and plants have changed over time. If you know somebody who doubts these two well-established propositions, this is the book to share with them. I remember, as a teenager, in the early 1980s, reading Duane Gish's "Evolution: The Fossils Say No," as well as the other standard texts of creationism, and Prothero's book would have helped me think through (and past) creationism a lot quicker than I did. Prothero's book might have been aptly titled, "Evolution: The Fossils Say Yes." It is a lavishly illustrated, thoroughly readable, and authoritative dismantling of creationism. Because of the patient work of contemporary scientists writing accessible popular texts on evolution, no thoughtful 21st century young person need be intellectually derailed by creationist literature. Dr. Prothero's is perhaps the best of the current spate of these types of books. I especially liked the chapter on the origins of life, and the chapter on the Grand Canyon. One of the strengths of this book is that Dr. Prothero does not dodge difficult questions, but attempts to address them directly. It is always refreshing to read somebody who does not obfuscate or downplay contrary lines of evidence, and who is willing to say "I don't know" when something is uncertain. The book is thus, in addition to its overt purpose, also an excellent model of sane and measured reflection. A good companion volume to Dr. Prothero's book might be "The Counter-Creationism Handbook," by Mark Isaak, recently published by the University of California Press"

 

A Groundbreaking Perspective

A movement has been growing over the past few decades that takes our common creation story—the epic of cosmic, biological, and human evolution revealed by science—as the basis for an inspiring and meaningful view of our place in the universe. Rev. Michael Dowd, “America's evolutionary evangelist,” is at the forefront of this movement. This well informed, thoroughly researched, and inspired book proclaims a gospel billions of years old. It builds bridges, provides guidance, and restores realistic hope for virtually everyone, regardless of belief or worldview.

Thank God for Evolution presents in a lively and accessible manner the reasons why it is now possible to view evolution as a call to deep integrity; how a dozen scientific disciplines reveal evolution to be measurably creative, rather than meaningless blind chance; practical methods for using evolutionary insights to achieve greater joy and personal fulfillment; and how aligning with evolutionary trends can guide activists and others hoping to make our world a better place. As a Christian minister, Dowd especially addresses the concerns that Christians have about evolution, but this book contains insights that will appeal to all people of faith and of no faith. Fun and uplifting, Thank God for Evolution goes beyond the current debate to offer up a whole new way of thinking about science and religion.

As evidenced by endorsements from a long list of Nobel laureates and other science luminaries, including noted skeptics, and by religious leaders across the spectrum, this is a book the world has been waiting for.

Book web site is here with lots of interesting facts:  Thank God For Evolution

The Wonderless World Tomorrow

I'm not so sure I'd enjoy being ruled by the fundamentalist Christians I know. They just know that they, the true true saints, will rule the world under Jesus Christ. This makes me nervous and I'm not so sure it will be source of my never ending joy realized when Jesus returns to rule us all with a "rod of iron." Somehow the use of seminars, luncheons and field trips never seems to dawn on Jesus or God as a way to better teach us poor ignorant slobs. But not to worry, I think the Rod of Iron thing is made up by the men who love to rule with such things. In becoming as little children, you'd think rods of iron would be prohibited as an acceptable way to solve problems and teach truth. I guess my common sense is not the common sense God and Jesus experience according to my fundamentalist friends.


First of all, the Clergy I know, don't get along very well among themselves. The screamers among them seem to compete for the recognition and preeminence and the rules they believe they will enforce upon all mankind within their reach are down right depressing and frightening. Worse yet, they don't seem to be able to agree on which rules are rules, which are suggestions and which are done away with. I do know they tend to want to be in charge and not just work for the Lord in lower positions.


In a small way, the rules on "dating" at many fundamentalist colleges leave kids getting married for the wrong reasons and not really knowing each other all that well.  The divorce rate among those who, as college kids, were "guided" in how often and who to date when, is high.  Mind your own business never seems to occur to such colleges.  However,  the Apostle Paul gives us great examples for how the religious gurus should go about minding other people's business to their harm.


There will be no dancin' or card playin'. No hair longer than that of the 1950's and no dresses shorter than ankle high. They will be made mostly of boring colors and put you in mind of your grandma. You'll be forced, because it's the rule, to go to Bible studies on Wednesday nights and church EVERY Sunday. You'll agree that Jesus really was born on Christmas and really died on Easter for all the appropriate reasons. You will be baptised by immersion or sprinkled depending. You're repentance will be heartfelt and genuine and you will become perfect like God is, or else of course. In fact you'll agree with what you are told to agree with even if you don't. If you don't, you will keep that very very quiet. However a local pastor says that God knows our thoughts, so that will be a challenge. I just know he's gonna tell!


As far as entertainment is concerned, you will love Andy Griffith and hate American Idol. Chris Sligh, outstanding singer and all around good guy, on American Idol, and Bob Jones University drop out, will be executed unless he rejoins the choir. Bob Jones is very disappointed in Chris for misusing his talents and spending time with the enemy. Any feelings that the kind of religious control he experienced is creepy or confining will be purged from his deceived mind, should he survive. Movies will be strictly monitored and you will learn to love "The Sound of Music"and "Oklahoma" as you never thought you could, or else. Stores will close on the appointed days and times and only sell the appropriate Christian things. I imagine only Christians will be allowed to even own or run a store. Oh yeah, the non-believers will be dead.


Concerning science, well, hold on to your hats. Evolution, which is literally true, will be banned and creationism and the Fall of Man because of woman in the Garden of Eden, which is not literally true, will replace it. You will get your views from the Creationism Museum in Kentucky and deny that it is built over shale showing millions of creatures layered quietly and turned to stone over millions of years.  It's a Karma Fairy thing.
 Science will be ever so much more easily understood. Phrases like "Quantum physics tells us," or "human consciousness studies inform us that," will be replaced by "God says." In fact, every finding of archaeology, paleontology, astronomy and every other "onomyies"and "tologies" will be replaced with "God says." A degree in science won't take long at all and the answers will become so much easier to come up with on the test.


Clergy will replace politicians and giving to the State will be regulated by Old Testament laws on tithing and many other such things you won't believe how happy they will make you. It will be to one's advantage to become a Priest of the Most High if you ever expect to accumulate any real material wealth. The Ten Commandments will be suspended long enough to steal the unbelievers blind, rape their wives, enslave their children and kill those who can't see the light as it is revealed to them. If you should find yourself in any kind of conflict over why you have to be so compliant and believe the unbelievable, this is why Jesus has his very own rod of iron. He will convince you that you need to adjust your attitude and you will do so nicely and with sincerity. After you learn anatomy by seeing eyes and tongues dissolve in the appropriately "God is Love" way, you'll feel more inclined to obey and be happy.


Now we can all hope the above nightmare scenario in the hands of Christian Fundamentalists will never come to pass. However, we have ample Old Testament predictions that Jewish fundamentalism will prevail in a very similar way. The above mentioned pastors will be forced to give up Sunday for Sabbath, Easter for Passover and Christmas for the Feast of Tabernacles. Boy are they gonna be surprised! I mean, this is what it says in the book they love to use to tell us all just how happy we will be when Jesus returns and restores all things his and God's way. A common phrase to be heard by these Pastors will be "hmmmmmmmm, no one 'splained it to me that way before."


Let's take a quick look at how happy we will be when the Messiah comes from the Jewish perspective, and how deep our joy must be, or else.


Zechariah 14:
(1-2) Jerusalem under siege from the nations.


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
See, I told ya the Ten Commandments would be suspended for the greater good!


(12-15) Enemies are forever plagued.


And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, and their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. It shall come to pass in that day that a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, and raise his hand against his neighbor's hand; Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. Such also shall be the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be.


See, I told ya you could still have lots of good stuff if you were the chosen ones and you'd learn anatomy in new and interesting ways!


(16-19) All the nations come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


See, I told ya have to give up the pagan Christian holidays and absolutely fall in love with the Jewish Holydays, or else.


(20-21) The common is made holy.


In that day "Holiness to the Lord" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.


See, I told ya Church was going to be a lot different and you better not be one of the not so special ones!


Doesn't being under enforced, for your own good, religious rule sound fun? No! Won't we be ever so much more happy and fulfilled? No! Actually, I sincerely hope this is not what "and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free," really means. Freedom under religious rule and control is truly frightening and depressing.

DenniscDiehl@aol.com 

Garner Ted's Woodpecker

 Awe, come on!  Stop thinking like GTA!  Get your mind out of the gutter!

This is the woodpecker I was talking about!

What spurred this on?  There was a column on Andrew Sullivan where a reader talked about GTA's woodpecker....

The Atlantic Home

« The Act Of Bearing Witness | Main | The Shifting Tide Of Empathy »

Question Of The Week: An Article About A Woodpecker

02 Jan 2011 11:24 am

by Conor Friedersdorf
A reader writes:

I have a fairly unusual answer to your question of the week, I think. A magazine article that had probably the biggest impact on my life and the way I view the world was an article on evolution in an issue of The Plain Truth, an evangelical magazine put out by Garner Ted Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God in the '60s and '70s.  My mother subscribed to the magazine and I discovered it lying around one day when I was eight or nine years old.  I was a precocious and voracious reader, so I devoured it along with any other piece of reading material I could get my hands on.
The article in question was about the "so-called" evolution of the woodpecker.

It had the usual mocking tone of creationist arguments (which I kind of liked) and put forth the idea that the woodpecker was so perfectly suited to drilling holes in trees, it would be inconceivable to imagine any intermediate forms.  There was an accompanying illustration of the woodpecker as a machine, with great metallic legs gripping the tree, a piston neck and a drill-like beak. I loved that illustration and stared at it for hours.  More than anything, it convinced me that a partly-evolved woodpecker, flying around the forest, bashing his head against trees was ridiculous.  I become, before I even understood what evolution was, a creationist.

My conversion lasted about six months.  I went camping with my family in British Columbia and, one day, while wandering the woods near our campsite, I spotted a bird (not a woodpecker) pecking away at a tree. I saw it pluck something from the tree and fly away.  I moved to the tree to take a closer look.  I couldn't see anything of interest to a bird in the rough bark, so I dug a little at it with my pocket knife. There were bugs, not just in the cracks of the bark, but deeper inside the bark as well.  "There's stuff to eat all the way inside," I thought.  And, suddenly, I understood how a partly-evolved woodpecker could develop.  By eating the stuff available all the way inside and gradually developing stronger beaks, stronger necks and so on.  I had my first true inkling of how evolution worked.
For a moment, I was elated.  Then, suddenly, I was furious.  I had been lied to.  A magazine with the word "Truth" in its title had lied to me.  Grownups, trying to teach me about the world, had lied to me. It was a disturbing and frightening realization for someone my age, and it created in me a deep skepticism that remains to this day.  On the whole, this has been a good thing, and, I have to say, if I ever ran into the author of that article, I'd thank him, although he might not appreciate the sentiment.

And that picture of the mechanical woodpecker really was totally cool.

For other excellent article dealing with the same subject check out::

The Amazing Animals: The Whales and the Dolphins