Tuesday, September 10, 2013

Dennis Muses: "I never said that...."

 

Wonders in the Wiggle Room

The Fine Art of Altering Church History

 

 

From David C. Pack's Original , Pre August 31, 2013 Announcement 21


"The Time Is NOW!


Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them. Realize there are over 30 more reasons—many of them very powerful—that I have left off the list because some will be covered later or because they would only be recognized as proofs by our Headquarters ministry (involving various miracles, some big). Readers would be largely unable to appreciate them as proofs:

1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. The time is now! Let’s go further.

2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance.

5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready?

6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year.

7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.

8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn.

9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.

11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.

12)   Elimintaed The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.

13)  Eliminated Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!

14) Eliminated  The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly.

15) Eliminated Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!

16) Eliminated Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

17) Eliminated Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT?

18)Now Point 12  Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent.

19) Eliminated Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position?

20) Eliminated  Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua.

21) Eliminated Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL?

22) Now Point 13We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.

23) Now Point 14  With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.

24) Now Point 15 World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now.

I repeat: There are many more reasons for a 2013 fulfillment, with a few of a personal nature—and others involving God moving miraculously to reveal crucial things at certain times within an extraordinarily complex prophecy that involves hundreds of verses. I have not included all of these reasons because others would likely not accept them as legitimate. They are, however, on MY much longer list (now 56 total). And these reasons stand on bedrock in the eyes of ALL our Headquarters ministers.


From David C. Packs Updated, Altered, Erased and Redacted New Announcement 21 Post August 31, 2013

"The Time Is Imminent!


Now comes a series of reasons the fulfillment of Haggai’s prophecy cannot be far off. They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them:

1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! If the prophecy is not soon, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. Let’s go further.

2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but somehow mean many years from now? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is ripe for deliverance.

5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning!

6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall.

7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.

8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry in the near future.

9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

10) For each year that passes before the prophecy’s fulfillment, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.

11) Altered Similarly, those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.

12) Was Point 18 in old Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant soon. This was the order in which these things became apparent.

13) Formerly point 22 We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on in the near term? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.

14) Was point 23 With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.

15) Was point 24 World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not years from now.

Some summary review. Since the prophecy has been revealed, brethren have new knowledge. They know God disagrees with the remnant’s decision that it is not yet time to come together and build His House. With knowledge comes responsibility (Jms. 4:17; Heb. 10:26).

Could not agree more and now that we know the simple complex Haggai Prophecy did not come to pass as presented, the responsible thing to do is apologize.

18 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Obviously, Dave has created a very confusing and complex barrage of bullshit leading up to this failure, and to God's vote of "no confidence" in him. The wiggle room is in the complexity. Had he made one or two definitive statements, and then shut his mouth, his later claims that he was misunderstood would in no way be plausible. Actually, they aren't anyway, thanks to Dennis and Gary, who have used their time, resources, and intellect to hold him accountable.

BB

Anonymous said...

There really should be a law against such blatant and obvious fraud when used to sucker people into making financial contributions. Pack should be behind bars with Flurry and Armstrong and others who altered literature to deny what was once said.

Anonymous said...

They are a not for profit organization and I think they can be liable for fraud and deception, but the government lets it be. They do not care for those that are hurt. I do hope Pack is investigated like the Amish in Ohio, who are in prison now, the leader for 15 years. But, none of his members will go forward and complain of the abuse in fear of loosing their salvation.

Jim Baker was in prison, I think 5 years, but he is on TV again. All is forgotten.

Douglas Becker said...

There are three tributaries of the Nile: The Juvenile, the Senile and in between, Denial.

Douglas Becker said...

It is easy for some people to be caught up in the delusions of the insane and my advice is to completely ignore their ravings.

EX RCG said...

Pack doesn't "speak the truth in love". Most of what he teaches isn't even truth, nor is it done with a godly attitude. It's all about competition and strife.

Mirror, mirror on the wall....who is the vainest babbler of all? Pack you win!

Joe Moeller said...

Maybe Pack thinks this is STAR TREK , where you can time travel back into the past and change the "timeline" and thus change the present!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Corky said...

An apostasy always gets mentioned when there never was an apostasy. The church evolved into the mess and confusion that we call "Christendom". Yep, all 41,000 segments of it.

The only way to make Old Testament prophecy relevant for today is to say that all prophecy is dual when we all know that it's not. Nope, either all prophecy was fulfilled in that first century generation, like Jesus and the apostles said it would be, or it was not and they were mistaken.

"The end of all things is at hand". Twice? NO.

Head Usher said...

I applaud this systematic effort to put that which Pack hopes is too much effort to be noticed in detail, and therefore just kind of gets swept under the rug of even those like us who are paying attention. It is having this analysis published in a timely manner and on file where it can be cited that gives it it's bona fides, gives it teeth, and makes it real, rather than just a "baseless allegation" dismissed with a wave of the hand. Excellent work, Dennis.

Anonymous said...

1) Prophecy is dual. There were false apostles then (Peter and Paul) and there are false apostles now (Gerald and Pack).

2) If Pack was misunderstood (which is just an excuse) after all the time he spent on it and having control of the podium, his site, and all rcg publications, he has only himself to blame. He could have shouted "this is all speculation" (or whatever) a hundred times.

Byker Bob said...

Know what the silver lining is (and there always is one!)?

Pack may have entertained us for most of the summer, but now, ARSENIO'S BACK!!!!!! And Arsenio has a much better world view, and vastly superior perspective on life. Pack is totally uncool, has no sense of humor and can't even dance! G'bye Dave. Nothing personal, it's just that you are irrelevant.

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

Thanks Head Usher. I wanted to archive the changes Dave made so that those so disposed to reading this site and associated with RCG would realize Dave is just making stuff up subject to change. The mystical revelation of it all is bogus and subject to change as well.

One can speak baloney with authority and it is still baloney as time tells.

Anonymous said...

There really should be a law against such blatant and obvious fraud when used to sucker people into making financial contributions.

There's something akin to "a law", but it's actually part the tax code and gives obvious frauds like Pack and almost every other obviously fraudulent preacher (like Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Marilyn & Sarah Hickey, James Robison, Paul and Jan Crouch, Paula White, Peter Popoff, Hal Lindsey, Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton, T.D. Jakes, Marcus and Joni Lamb, etc etc etc etc.) a TAX-FREE status.
And there's no laws against their preaching craziness and taking in tons of tithes to support their cushy lifestyles of multimillion dollar homes, jets and and expensive luxury cars.

(Yep, even Creflo Dollar, who preached how people who don't tithe to him should be shot in the head with semiautomatic weapons gets a lawful pass, gets to keep preaching his bullshit and keep all of his Rolls Royces, private jet, various multimillion dollar homes, etc.)

Anonymous said...

"Prepare to be staggered—stunned beyond belief! Incredible truth has remained hidden—held back—from all humanity for 2,000 years. This is the astounding story of the true gospel that Christ brought—and how it involves you!"

This man teaches a false gospel by removing the Son and entertains the crowd with lies. He stated that it is an error to mix the person of Christ with the gospel. Just what bible does he read?

The good news is all about salvation from the beginning of the book to the very end. That includes only one Savior...the Son. Why people fall for his gospel(another Jesus), I do not understand. I was sure he was a false teacher after one week of viewing and reading his material. Pack's way/religion is that God is calling us to Pack's church and not to follow the savior. "Look for contradiction first" is good advice.

He is full of error like controlling God's spirit on the members (no man has power over the spirit Ecc 8:8), telling them how to exercise it and how some only have a little of it. When the bible is very clear that the Father gives it to those that obey (sorry, Pack of lies, that is not you).

This is a Synagogue of satan!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 8:50, could you give us a sentence or two about each of the preachers you listed, sharing what you know about specific things that make them a fraud? It's a pretty targeted list, so why did you single out those particular individuals? Can you direct us towards articles or websites which caused you to form your opinions?

Thanks.
Seeker of True Christianity

Anonymous said...

"could you give us a sentence or two about each of the preachers you listed, sharing what you know about specific things that make them a fraud? It's a pretty targeted list, so why did you single out those particular individuals? Can you direct us towards articles or websites which caused you to form your opinions?"

I have seen all those preachers on TV, and it took a short time in each instance to almost puke over them.
That's my personal experience.

It's true, though, that that there are websites that delineate people's objections with each of those sleazy preachers, if you choose to look further.

Anonymous said...

OK. Nebulous non-answer to my question. That would be typical of someone who just takes a dislike to Christians, and to Christian teachers. These people you cited are not in the national news for scandals or abusive church government, so nearly as one can tell. Like yourself, I don't happen to think much of Hinn, but have known others who found him inspiring.

Anonymous said...

"I don't happen to think much of Hinn, but have known others who found him inspiring."

Yes, Benny Hinn is one of the biggest frauds out there, and there's no shortage of people who find him inspiring.
In fact, his services are carefully crafted to be inspiring to his rubes, and to keep the money rolling in.
Hinn is an interesting character. He got his "healing crusades" and other parts of his shtick from another fraud- Kathryn Kuhlman, and he acknowledges that.
Both, (along with many others these days), use the “shotgun” method, which causes receptive emotional people to believe they are healed when in fact they aren't.
Hence, Hinn's "show" makes for a good theatrical effect and resultant emotionally charged donations, but not for actual healing.