Saturday, July 21, 2018

COG Prophet: I don't have mental issues like Elijah did, so therefore I am Elisha!



The Church of God prophet of Arroyo Grande had a rude shock recently when he discovered that Elijah ended up having mental problems. Modern COG prophets can't have that! Therefore, Almost arrested but not arrested, the former Elijah, Amos, Joshua, and doubly blessed Bob Thiel is now the end time doubly-blessed Elisha!  The fun part is that 99% of the people in the COG's and the entire world think he is the one with mental issues and refuses to follow him.
Getting back to the original Elijah, when he was the top ecclesiastical authority, Elijah did a variety of miracles, such as stopping rain (1 Kings 17:1), multiplying flour and oil (1 Kings 17:13-16), getting a dry passage over a river, (2 Kings 2:7-8), and calling fire down from heaven (2 Kings 1:10-12).
Elijah, however, over time seem to have lost the mental/emotional ability to properly lead (cf. 1 Kings 19:13-18). God later took him and replaced him with Elisha as the top ecclesiastical authority. Elisha then received a “double-portion” (two-portion literally) of the gift that God had given Elijah: 
9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”
Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”
10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. (2 Kings 2:9-13)
So what can you imagine that Elisha and Bob Thiel have in common?  Notice vs. 9 above.  Elisha was "doubly blessed."  This doubly blessed nonsense that Thiel trots out to legitimize himself in the eyes of gullible people is just that, pure unadulterated nonsense.  In other words, it is an outright lie. Galyon Bonjour had no intention of blessing Thiel in order for him to start a new personality cult.   But this has never stopped Elisha Thiel from making such a crazy claim.
The recipient of the double-portion, Elisha, was a type of Elijah. Elisha picked up the mantle of Elijah (2 Kings 2:13) which God wanted him to have (1 Kings 19:16-19), did a similar miraculous dry river crossing (2 Kings 2:13-14), also did other miracles (2 Kings 4:30-35; 2 Kings 10:5-14; 2 Kings 6:16-18), as he replaced Elijah as God’s top ecclesiastical authority on earth (cf. 1 Kings 19:16).

A minister of the Living Church of God prayed and anointed Bob Thiel for a ‘double portion’ of God’s Spirit back in late 2011 and told him that was reminiscent of what happened to Elisha.
Not only does Thiel claim to be an Elisha, but he also has characteristics of Elijah running through his veins.  Of course, absolutely none of this is from God, but it is entirely from himself. All made up in that warped brain of his. God has not spoken to Thiel any more than he has to Gerald Flurry or Dave Pack.

Thiel's thinking is so twisted and perverted that he believes he was foretold in scripture as rising up in the end times and taking on the Elijah/Elisha role.
Jesus, Himself, confirmed that John the Baptist, who in not recorded to have done any of the miracles of Elijah, fulfilled an Elijah role:  
12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. (Matthew 17:12-13)
So, the Bible tells of two Elijahs who were here thousands of years ago.
But Jesus told of another Elijah to come after He left: 
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (Matthew 17:11)
That particular Elijah was also prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures (the Old Testament). Here are Protestant, “literal,” and Catholic (note: Catholics often use the Latinized form of Elijah, called Elias below) translations:

4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel. 5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.” (Malachi 4:4-6, ESV)
4 Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, That I did command him in Horeb, For all Israel — statutes and judgments. 5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful. 6 And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land! (Malachi 4:4-6, YLT)
4 Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, the precepts, and judgments. 5 Behold I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers: lest I come, and strike the earth with anathema. (Malachi 4:4-6, Douay-Rheims).
Notice that the various translations teach that Elijah is to be on the scene before the Day of the Lord. An event that is at least over six years from now.

How much do you want to bet that in 2024, when absolutely none of Thiel's predictions have become true that he will say God is delaying things. He will never admit he was wrong or even that he had lied. His god will tell him that the time frame has changed, or that the Mayan calendar was wrong or Fatima made the wrong prophecy. Accountability is not something COG leaders are known for.
Then to further establish himself as the true Elijah/Elisha in the eyes of his African members, he claims that Herbert Armstrong thought there might be another Elijah to come.  One guess as to who that person is, even though Flurry, Pack, Weinland, Meredith, Hulme, and many others all claim they are that end time leader.
The Church of God position has been that someone would come in the spirit and power of Elijah to “restore all things” and possibly be one of the two witnesses. While the late Herbert W. Armstrong (died in January 1986) sometimes indicated that he fulfilled that role, he told people that I have personally spoken with that there could be another other than he. Those with a WCG background might find the following quote from Herbert W. Armstrong of some assistance here as he wrote:
Those called into the Church were called not merely for salvation and eternal life, but to learn the way of God’s government and develop the divine character during this mortal life in the Church age…
Also Malachi 4:5-6 pictures the Elijah to come at the very end of the Church age (Mystery of the Ages. 1985, pp. 201, 349).
And when was the “Church age” supposed to end according to Herbert Armstrong’s old church:
God has set before us an open door and no MAN can shut it. God can shut it, and He will when the work is finished and the Philadelphia Church goes to a place of safety. …The Laodicean Church is not going to he worthy to escape to a place of safety. When it is too late, they will find that the Church of Philadelphia has gone to safety (What Is the “LAODICEAN CHURCH”? Good News August 1959 Vol. VIII, Number 8).  
Now since the Church age has not ended, and the Day of the Lord has not yet come, then it follows that Elijah was to come on the scene publicly after this was written. His restoring of “all things” means that he is to be restoring information that the true Church of God once understood, but later must have lost or misunderstood.
Then the arrogant narcissist continues with a broad swipe at Dave Pack and all other COG leaders and groups out there that they are all wrong.  Salvation cannot happen outside the boundaries of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God.  There is no other Church of God on the face of the earth today that has the "sure word of prophecy" that the improperly named "continuing" Church of God does. those who do not heed the call of Elisha Thiel are going to have a tough time in the tribulation.
Now, I should add that RCG’s David Pack is NOT the prophesied end time Elijah despite his claims earlier this year–he has NOT restored the truth and is confused/wrong on many points.

Those of the true and genuine Philadelphian remnant will pay much attention to the voice of the true final Elijah. Those who do not will not fare as well as they could (cf. Revelation 12:14-17).

We in the Continuing Church of God “have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).”
Elisha Thiel does not have the "sure word of prophecy" any more than Herbert Armstrong did, or Gerald Waterhouse, or Dave Pack, or Ron Weinland, or Gerald Flurry.  Every single one of them has been documented to be liars.

Why is it that every self-appointed leader in the Church of God has or has had serious mental health issues? Even worse, is that their members do not have the discernment to see how sick these men are. How many will have to die before people wake up?

32 comments:

Anonymous said...


It must be quite a tiring experience constantly looking through Old Testament Scripture trying to find one's self somewhere in those texts. It requires an arrogance and a hubris that's literally off the scale to even begin to think to do that. You really have to wonder about someone's sanity and good sense when one imagines he's in scripture.

I'm not sure if Thiel has some sort of a disorder, or a syndrome, or is just suffering from delusions. But anyone who has the kind of audacity to put themselves on the level and order of someone from the Old Testament - someone who is literally unknown to 99.999999999999999% of the world - reminds me of a little ant trying to put itself on the level of an active, exploding volcano. Because even a "double portion" of strength for the ant wouldn't give it the power to lift a STICK.

Thiel's constant attempts to legitimize himself as some sort of Elijah or Elisha or Amos, and so on, and so forth, and what have you, is the very thing that DE-legitimizes himself over and over and over again. It seems most people have this opinion. He, however, does not.

Bob Thiel is a sad example of what Armstrongism has done. What I don't understand, is how a man who claims so much education and knowledge, somehow, someway, does not seem to understand something so simple as the concept of humility, honesty, and meekness.

Hey Bob. The Law and the Prophets pointed to Christ. All of scripture points to Christ. Jesus is the revelation of all things the Bible ever pointed to. It is not about you. It's about Jesus. You're not an Elijah, or an Elisha, or an Amos, or any biblical personality. Be happy with who you were called to be - a Child of God like the rest of us. Stop wasting time trying to be someone you're not. Because your calling is the calling of the rest of us. Gentleness, meekness, self control, patience, kindness, faithfulness, love, and self-control. And right now all this business of you calling yourself some OT name? The fruits of that, quite frankly are nausea, revulsion, and incredulous thinking. You have the time to focus on bringing others to Christ if you wanted to, but instead it's all about you. That says it all in my book. All of this "I'm Elisha" malarkey? That's just pathetic. God's given us a spirit of power and a sound mind. Not deception.






Hoss said...

Bob also wrote:

Herbert W. Armstrong never claimed to have restored ALL THINGS

but he assures us:

We in the Continuing Church of God are regularly restoring more truth about church history, doctrine, and prophecy. And we have done this more, by far, than any other group in the 21st century (COG or otherwise for that matter).

"...in 2024, when absolutely none of Thiel's predictions have become true..."

Don't worry, Bob gave himself lots of wiggle room:

Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth.

DennisCDiehl said...

I rest my case. Many of the prophets exhibited the traits of mental illness. Just claiming to hear the voice of God in your head when no one else does puts you right on the edge of sanity and schizophrenia. The possessed were really mentally ill, Jesus healed childhood epilepsy which goes cycles in about 20 minutes back to normal and Paul exhibited all the signs, in Acts Road to Damascus (a story which he does not tell himself) of temporal lobe epilepsy: Bright lights, voices that only he hears and hallucinations with religious content. Classic mental illness today. amen...

DennisCDiehl said...

And too...For any man to hint at being the reincarnation/nice word: type, of a religious figure from the Bible, is well on the way to mental illness, delusional thinking and a religious train wreck that will not end well for anyone.

Byker Bob said...

This saga profoundly illustrates that if you are part and parcel of a mess of crap, and if you buy into, and take the mess of crap seriously to the extent that it validates your entire life, eventually you want a position of leadership in that mess of crap. Rites of passage, finding what you see as your rightful status.

BB

Connie Schmidt said...

Thiel indeed does have a double portion...


A DOUBLE PORTION OF DELUSION!

Anonymous said...

Dennis, if Paul had temporal lobe epilepsy, wouldn't he know the symptoms of a seizure as it came on him? Besides, being an enemy of Christ, wouldn't his confirmation bias lead him to believe it was something other than a vision of Jesus? Similarly, when people suffer from migraines, they know when one is coming on and knowing this, they wouldn't attribute it to a supernatural experience.

Anonymous said...

Thiel wrote:

Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth.

OK, so Elijah will be "part of" the improperly named Continuing Church of God. But that in no way proves that Thiel will be the Elijah. When some charismatic African member declares himself the Elijah, will Thiel recognize him, just as Meredith was supposed to recognize Thiel as a prophet?

Anonymous said...

I think that Thiel is a very insecure person who wants desperately to be somebody important. Not much different from HWA, a high school drop out who always wanted to be a big shot. But, HWA never wanted to do so. He was an empty suit. He built a college, that was no real college at all. It looked pretty on the outside, but there was no library, no real education going on, only indoctrination. He wasn't a theologian, but he put on a good show on TV. From the outside he could impress church members, King Leopold and a few others, but there was way more style than substance in what he built.

Near_Earth_Object said...

October 22, 1844 - The Great Disappointment

What I think is remarkable is how often the Millerites have been wrong about interpreting prophecy - it is now growing to be a comedic cliché. If we were to plot Millerite prophetic error, the curve would cruise along modestly until HWA, the WCG and the offshoots and then the curve would climb dramatically.

The Mystery of the Ages is why do these people continue to be fascinated by this shtick, no matter how fantastic it has become, and why do they want to be a part of the error. Are they in need of some kind of self-immolation?

Byker Bob said...

We can always hope for an “A Beautiful Mind” happy ending for some of these folks, but those are relatively rare.

BB

RSK said...

Thiel rarely has to backpedal in text. He simply deletes the problematic text from his many html pages and pretends it does not exist.

Anonymous said...

that was no real college at all. It looked pretty on the outside

Well, you know Herbvert's Religionland was not far from make-believe Hollywoodland

Dumbhead said...

To be fair,I don't believe that Roderick Meredith claimed he was Elijah

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:50 AM wrote:

I think that Thiel is a very insecure person who wants desperately to be somebody important.

Here's one way some ACOG leader might genuinely become important: The ACOG movement hasn't yet had its Marjoe Gortner, who exposed the fraud from the inside out. There's probably room for only one of these, so it's a question of who will make the move first.

We know that several of the top ACOG leaders are aware that Armstrongism is a fraud, yet they have no other marketable skills, so they keep on preaching. Imagine the good that would be done if any one of these top men were to repent publicly, admit to the fraud, and alert the whole world to the scam that is Armstrongism.

Gerald Flurry is probably a true believer, and Dave Pack has become so objectionable that he wouldn't have a sympathetic audience if he turned. However, imagine the good if someone like Vic Kubik were to resign from his UCG positions and focus full-time on LifeNet after admitting that he had been part of a great fraud run by frightened old men who realized too late that HWA was a fraud. Or, in LCG, Michael Germano and Douglas Winnail have adult family members who could support them in retirement if they admitted to the fraud. In PCG, the Culpepper family has income not tied to the church.

Imagine one of these men appearing on 60 Minutes, telling the story of the WCG forty years after the infamous Mike Wallace interview of Stanley Rader. It could make the confessor a hero and a star, and might pull the rug out from the remnants of the ACOG movement, rendering Thiel (and Weinland, etc.) irrelevant once and for all.

Anonymous said...

NEO
Talking about prophetic error, there's a 1964 book called "When prophecy fails." It's educational reading the wikipedia review about this study on failed religious prophecies.

Alllen Dexter said...

Thiel is so delusional it's pitiful. Never knew the guy. He's long after my time. It's hard for me to understand how people want to equate themselves with obscure biblical figures we only have a cursory knowledge of through that opinionated, myth filled tome. I've learned to distrust all of it. I'd as soon base my life decisions and take my moral guidance from the writings of guys like Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, etc. Oh, well, we've got just such a delusion-filled character sitting in the White House right now and put there by the same kind of deluded religionists. What a deluded bunch we were back there, and sadly, all too many are still among that number.

RSK said...

And will he hand over the keys to said charismatic African as he expected Meredith to do for him? "That a prophet is higher in rank than an evangelist" (Bobs own words) and all that?

Anonymous said...

Theil's following is likely to grow. The global IQ dropped 0.86% in the last 50 years and the rate of decline is expected to accelerate and spread rapidly to the West. Google it and see for yourself.

Anonymous said...

"Imagine one of these men appearing on 60 Minutes, telling the story of the WCG forty years after the infamous Mike Wallace interview of Stanley Rader. It could make the confessor a hero and a star, and might pull the rug out from the remnants of the ACOG movement, rendering Thiel (and Weinland, etc.) irrelevant once and for all."

Doubtful, even if there was a tell-all from a high-profile insider.

The Churches of God are chock-full of conspiracy theorists. They'd attempt to find some way to discredit the whistle-blower, and theorize some way they were "deceived" or whatever you want to call it. After all, for decades, these same people have made a skill at taking what something really says and turning it into what they want it to mean. It would be the same if someone told all. They wouldn't believe it, or buy it, and would explain it all away with well-known COG tactics.

The only way they'd ever believe it is if some recording was unearthed by HWA himself, stating without any doubt it was all a scam. But then, they'd probably explain that away too.

No matter how small and insignificant, there will always be a few people who will stand by Armstrongism. Some try their hardest to revive it. Their attempts are futile, except for their own comfortable small group in their homes. They try with their whole hearts to revive what is gone, longing for the glory days of decades past, reliving the past in every waking second, attached to the things that were. It's the only way they feel normal, or comfortable. These are the addicts of Armstrongism, who get their "fix" by their obsessive desire to bring back the past in any way they can - even if they convince themselves they are an "apostle" or a "prophet" or what have you. Without that sense of identity and purpose that was etched into their brains by Herbert, they are completely, and totally, and thoroughly lost.


Anonymous said...


The Apostle:

Herbert W. Armstrong RESTORED all things. All the doctrines in the Worldwide Church of God had come through HWA.


The FALSE Prophets:

Gerald R. Flurry DIVIDED all things. GRF broke up friendships, families, marriages, etc.

David C. Pack STOLE all things. DCP took his followers' savings, retirement funds, houses, possessions, etc.

Ronald E. Weinland FIBBED about all things prophetic. REW wrote prophetic fantasy fiction books.

Robert J. Thiel was MENTALLY CHALLENGED by all things. RJT looked to demons and pagans and fake news on TV for the answers.


Byker Bob said...

David Jon Hill was on his way to revealing some of the inner secrets, based on the parts of his memoir which he had already completed. Unfortunately, he died before he was able to write the final chapters. Al Portune, Sr. provided additional revelations, but only went so far.

The problem with this type of expose is that it is only minimally effective on “true believers”. It boggles most of our minds that GTA could continue his ministry and actually have any followers, credibility, or family after the masseuse video, but he did. Look what happened with David Robinson’s expose! The stalwarts either reject it, or assume that their Mr. Armstrong repented, and this in spite of the fact that the incest was allegedly going on during the specific time period when HWA was supposedly receiving the restored truths from God.

The fact is, people believe what they want to believe. It is no accident that certain personality types are attracted to Armstrongism. For better or worse, it deeply resonates with a negligible percentage of humanity on a soul level. No expose or video could completely wipe out the movement. Our best bet is time.

BB

Anonymous said...

9.26 PM
If HWA restored all things, how do you explain the church culture of tyranny? Did he restore that? And why is it that in the 1960s, the men were required to wear dark blue suites that looked remarkably similar to Mao suites? And doesn't HWAs 'give way' sound like something out of Mao's Little Red book, i.e., ownership by need?
It appears that HWA copied from his surroundings rather than restoring truth. Your reply would be much appreciated.

Anonymous said...

Allen Dexter said, "It's hard for me to understand how people want to equate themselves with obscure biblical figures." Roderick Meredith can claim that he was trained and worked with HWA for decades. Flurry can claim that he worked for HWA, but not nearly as closely or as long as RCM. What can Thiel claim? Nothing with regards to associating closely with HWA. Perhaps that is why he reaches back to some OT figure for validation of his position.

Hoss said...

Bob Thiel posted another Elijah article, but this time stopped short claiming the role.

Anonymous said...

Allen, you should know that Flurry doesn't brag that he "worked for HWA." Rather, he casts himself as an unknown, a David type, whom God plucked from obscurity to fill a leadership role. Also, Flurry reaches back to quite a few OT figures for validation of his position. Flurry doesn't directly claim to be Jesus, but he does claim to hold the NT office of "Christ in the flesh."

Near_Earth_Object said...

After years of failed prophecy, why do these people continue to smear egg on their faces for all to see? Is this strange behavior unique to Armstrongists?

Without names or political judgments, we have a prominent US leader who lies blatantly and shamelessly and this fact is easily established. Yet, he has a large and unquestioning collection of followers - like 40% of the US population. So this kind of puzzling behavior is not unique to Armstrongists.

The theory of cognitive dissonance would lead us to think that the bad behavior is rationalized because there are other more significant interests that are being served.

I believe that many Armstrongists buy into all the malarkey because Armstrongism nurtures their self-esteem. If they stay out of conflicts with the ministry, they can feel really good about themselves. They are in the gnostic inner circle. It is very difficult to crack open this kind of pathological dependency. Armstrongism gives them what they need and they are smug about that. There is very little reason, then, to question or come to a blog like this. "All is well, all is well,with my soul …" as Dwight said.

Hoss said...

Without names or political judgments...

This sounds like the leader who appears to be favored by PCG and ICG, critiqued at Living Armstrongism.

Anonymous said...


Near_Earth_Object on July 23, 2018 at 6:47 AM said...“Without names or political judgments, we have a prominent US leader who lies blatantly and shamelessly and this fact is easily established.”


That does indeed sound very scary.

But fear not, little assteroid. That blatantly and shamelessly lying crooked woman that you referred to got totally blown away by a much more prominent and popular real man leader who tells it like it is.

So, don't worry, be happy!

Anonymous said...

4.52 AM
Flurry has claimed that he is personally mentioned in the OT as 'the Breaker.'

Anonymous said...


Anonymous on July 23, 2018 at 10:21 AM said...“Flurry has claimed that he is personally mentioned in the OT as 'the Breaker.'”


Well, that does sound just like Gerald Flurry. The Breaker of friendships. The Breaker of families. The Breaker of marriages. The breaker of DUI laws. The Breaker of people's trust. The breaker of God's commandments. Gerald Flurry does wreck a lot of things. He is a Breaker.

But he is not the “nail in a sure place.” He is the “sack of hammers.”

Anonymous said...

Comment was made saying:

"...Thiel's thinking is so twisted and perverted that he believes he was foretold in scripture as rising up in the end times and taking on the Elijah/Elisha role.
Jesus, Himself, confirmed that John the Baptist, who in not recorded to have done any of the miracles of Elijah, fulfilled an Elijah role:
12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. (Matthew 17:12-13)
So, the Bible tells of two Elijahs who were here thousands of years ago.
But Jesus told of another Elijah to come after He left:
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (Matthew 17:11)..."


Why does Bob Thiel continue on in the footsteps of the ancient Pharisees and scribes?

Why are these verses presented in a "backwards" order, placing an earlier verse 11 at the end after verses 12-13 are cited?

Yes, that presentation of scripturews sure looks twisted and perverted, if nothing else. That presentation makes Jesus out to be a liar.

Matthew 17:5 says "...behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." That was a very major point. The men present were plainly told to hear ye Him: Hear Jesus' words! Jesus in verse 11 came before verses 12-13, and Jesus spoke of Elijah and gave the conclusion of the matter in verse 17.
in verse 12, Jesus said: "...That Elias is come already..."
And the disciples, who had not even received God's Spirit as a begettal, understood exactly what Jesus said: what the disciples heard, which was:
:17 "Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Done deal!
How come false prophet Thiel does not understand what even the disciples understood, and they heard Jesus?
Bob Thiel proves he is listening to "something else," or "somebody else!"
Bob Thiel proves his thinking is perverted and his thinking is twisted.
Bob's made-up continuing "whatever," something that is NOT God's Church and has nothing to do with God's Church, will continue to spread lies...as though he were of his father (John 8:44), the same father Jesus spoke of when confronting a bunch of lying hypocrites like the Pharisees and Scribes...etc.

Time will tell...

John