Monday, March 14, 2016

Was Herbert Armstrong America's Greatest War Hero?



I received a document in the mail the other day about Herbert Armstrong.  I was not going to post it here, but its entertainment value is too great.   I am sure this will draw out a LOT of comments!  😀

Here goes...though you may need a barf bag before you reach the end of it.

Even the best history books include a little bit of error here and there and, as long and detailed as they may be, they occasionally can gloss over some of the most significant aspects of specific historical events.  Strangely enough, this is the case for one of the most widely researched wars of our times, World War II.  It is difficult to believe but true that, to my knowledge, not a single historian has recognized the most compelling story of World War II.  This is an amazing story about one of the most patriotic, hard-working, dedicated, self-sacrificing individuals that has ever lived.  
Much has been written about the leadership of Franklin D. Roosevelt, Omar Bradley, Henry Arnold, Douglas Mac Arthur, Dwight Eisenhower, and George Patton. Much has been written about the great heroism of numerous individual soldiers and the important advantage the United States had with the efficient mass production of airplanes, tanks, guns, and battleships.  Much credit has been given to the Manhattan project.  At the same time, not a single history book has been written to tell the incredible story about the efforts of one visionary man who, in the end, achieved what no amount of tanks, planes or armies could have accomplished.  This visionary man almost single-handedly was responsible for helping the United States turn the tides of war and snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat. 
It is now time for America to hear "the rest of the story"... 
In 1940, America was totally unaware of the significance of World War II.  The nation was worried about Germany and the risk of entering a prolonged war when there was something much more certain and dangerous looming for the nation...Eternal judgment and punishment that was absolutely certain.
Fortunately there was one man who recognized this fact and he was a man that knew what to do about it.
Amazing Historical Fact No. 1:  World War II was a judgment on America and America would lose the war unless it repented!

·       Plain Truth, September/October 1941 page 7   "Our God is now about to punish… if our stiff-necked and rebellious people go on defying… trusting only in material and military defense… We shall be invaded, CONQUERED, uprooted from our homes and transplanted to other lands across the seas—ruled over as slaves."

·      CO-WORKERS BULLETIN, December 24th, 1941:  "...Remember this war is PROPHESIED! It is the LAST war! It is for a PURPOSE! God's JUDGMENTS are about to fall!


·       Plain Truth March/April 1942, p. 11:  “UNLESS America WAKES UP, repents, turns to God and puts her faith in Him, the punishment we already are suffering in greater and harder doses from week to week shall continue until there is invasion - and utter SLAVERY!"



Amazing Fact No. 2 - One man was willing to take on the responsibility of turning America around!

This man knew the nation had to be warned and he had the ability to build the support needed to fund this incredible effort to get this critical, patriotic message out to the entire nation. 
·       Co-Worker letter November 1942:   “God Almighty says in His prophecies we cannot win in this war UNLESS OUR PEOPLE REPENT AND TURN TO HIM.   
Co-workers, OUR contribution to the war-effort---OUR patriotic DUTY, if we would back up the boys in uniform and have their lives spared---is to SACRIFICE EVERYTHING and GET BEHIND THIS VITAL MESSAGE that it may go out with rapidly-multiplied POWER until this nation is AWAKENED, and TURNS TO GOD, and is SPARED! This war is a JUDGMENT SENT FROM GOD! Help me to warn this nation, that defeat need not come to our shores!”   
                                      
·       Co-Worker Letter August 24th 1942:  This war, for us, is a judgment sent from God.    ... THE DAY OF RECKONING IS HERE.

If we fail to WARN this nation, God says He will require the blood of the people at our hands. (Ezek. 33:1-6)
 
·       Co-Worker letter Feb. 16, 1943 To proclaim this life-and-death warning for our nation IS THE MOST IMPORTANT BUSINESS IN THIS WORLD TODAY.

It is more than just preaching the Gospel. THIS NATION MUST BE WARNED! The sure Word of prophecy says definitely the only way we can win this war is to REPENT as a nation, turn to God, seek Him and FIND Him, and put our trust in HIM! God has SENT this war upon us, as a JUDGMENT! The day of reckoning, for this nation, is HERE. This is of GOD! HE SAYS SO!

We all have witnessed who well THAT worked out.  However, this person continues with this:

Amazing Fact No. 3 - This amazing man got America to repent!

Although this mass repentance has not typically been documented, there can be no doubt that it happened since the United States of America did not suffer defeat nor did we lose 1/3 of our population, nor did we become slaves.

Amazing Fact No. 4 – America’s greatest war hero was too humble to take credit for his patriotic effort and his place in history remains untold!

Although only one man could recognize America's true problem in World War II, understand the only possible path to avoid certain defeat, and then to have the skills necessary to devise and successfully implement such an ambitious plan to assure victory for our nation, this man was too humble to take credit for doing so. This man was Herbert W. Armstrong!

And although HWA accomplished what no amount of tanks, planes or armies could do, he never spoke one word about his success in this area. 

How incredible humble he was!

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

99.9% of all Americans never heard of HWA during WWII it is laughable to think that he had any influence on this nation.

k-baradanikto said...

I thought the government was considering taking him off the air because he kept predicting failure in America's war effort.

Byker Bob said...

As a child, someone watched too much "Tom Terrific", in which his dog, Mighty Manfred was always given the credit as a hero, having done nothing other than be a dog. Half the time he could not even be awakened to receive his credit, and would not have known diddley if he had been awake!

By the way, until reading the posted letter, I had no idea there was such a thing as triarrhea- loss of control of three bodily processes simultaneously!

Somebody done ran out of Reynolds Wrap fo sho!

BB

k-baradanikto said...

"Although this mass repentance has not typically been documented, there can be no doubt that it happened since the United States of America did not suffer defeat nor did we lose 1/3 of our population, nor did we become slaves."

Is this an example of circular reasoning?

Byker Bob said...

The funny thing is, K-B, my mother always told us that from a moral and ethical standpoint, American society really went down hill right after the war! And she had already been a WCG member for years when she told us that. Apparently for those coming of age during the 1940s, it appeared that there were some serious barriers and lines that were crossed!

Not even the Flurrys would state that HWA caused the USA to repent so that we could win the war. Probably even little Stephen would think that that was the dumbest thing he had ever heard in his life!

BB

Anonymous said...

So now there's someone out there writing Herbert W. Armstrong fan fiction. Internet, you've done it again.

Anonymous said...

All of those past reference sources (from co-worker letters, bulletins, PT mag, etc.) cited were written before my birth, and hindsight proves the comments made were just a lot of "junk food:" something that may have looked/sounded very nice, when written, but in reality ultimately had no redeeming value. Was it given to us only to provide us with some humor? Just to embarrass human beings?

And yet, so many of us swallowed similar "junk food" hook, line and sinker for decades beyond the 1940s and didn't have a clue as to how erroneous those words were. In fact, how many in the xcogs (United Ass., Living group, "Philadelphia" group, cogwa group, etc.) still believe in similar junk food about a supposed "second coming" where Jesus Christ is to return "very soon" and reign on earth for 1,000 years?

Well, weren't all of the enemies supposed to have been subdued, put down, before Jesus Christ begins that rule on earth? Death is an enemy and death will still be occurring after the 1,000 years (sort of a Mickey Mouse Millennium (MMM))? How about Satan, another enemy? After that MMM, Satan pops out of some "bottomless pit," like some "jack in the box," and again causes deception and worldwide havoc?

Another example, after that MMM, that 1,000 years, Jerusalem is taken over, divided up, women ravished, etc. Where was Jesus Christ?

Has some "man of sin" been functioning within God's Church and spewing out his "junk food" over the past approximately 2,000 year, per 2 Thess 2, unbeknownst to most (all?) of us?

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Isn't the temple of God God's Church? And on the other hand we're told that God can't lie? What's going on?

If history means anything, repeating itself, then perhaps "junk food" in one form or another will continue to be fed to God's Church. And yet, if all of the world were really deceived, then perhaps the entire world is eating all sorts of "junk food" too! It amounts to a lot of lies, and the Bible does speak about a father of lies. Is that vile, evil, thing really this powerful in filling our lives with lies. We do hear lies from political leaders, in movies, in our news.

Oh, well, that was just for some "food for thought," because time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

What's even worse about this travesty is how it's based on a highly inaccurate Amero-centric interpretation of history in the first place.

America wouldn't even enter WWII until nearly 2 1/2 years into it, with the exception of Pearl Harbor none of it was fought on American soil, and it wasn't won in the west, it was won in the east. The Russian people bore the brunt of German aggression and turned it back principally at Stalingrad with at human cost of nearly 500,000 killed or missing, and 650,000 wounded or sick over the 5 month long Battle of Stalingrad alone. Hitler knew that unless he gained control over Russian oil he would lose the war, and so to make up for these losses he pulled a vast military force from the west. A judgment on America?

WWII had nothing to do with America to begin with. Pearl Harbor was attacked because of our embargo against Japan due to our disagreement with it's imperialistic wars in Asia that had been ongoing since 1900, but had become more aggressive in 1930. Had it not been for that, FDR might have been content to merely continue to prop up Britain. Had America not entered the European theatre on D-Day, it would have meant a Soviet Europe, not a Nazi one. Most people don't know this, but according to General Groves, the reason for the Manhattan project wasn't Hitler, but Stalin, because without that, it still would have meant a Soviet Europe. When Stalin heard about Hiroshima, he was furious, because he knew that even though the Soviet Union was the victor, he would not be able to command the spoils.

So if this was a judgment from some god or another against somebody, why wasn't it a judgment against the Soviets, the Germans, or the Japanese? The way these idiots misread their bible "prophecies" in modern contexts in which it never was intended to make any sense, why don't they conclude that the Soviets, the Germans, or the Japanese were the ones that repented, and that the United States was the tool this god supposedly used to bring it about? Oh, that's right, because of British Israelism. And Herbert Armstrong was a nobody who knew nothing and was wrong about everything, and only figured out Germany was going to lose the war when he read about it in the newspaper along with everyone else.

itstimecog said...

BB, "triarrhea- loss of control of three bodily processes simultaneously!", that's hilarious and be assured, you're not alone.
Just when you think you've heard it all, along comes something like this.
To know that there were some that actually believed and sponsored those claims, is outrageous in it self.

Anonymous said...

This is like a super version of Al Gore claiming that he invented the internet.

Anonymous said...

This is Al Gore. I did too, I did too invent the internet!

Anonymous said...

"RAPING His daughter for 10 YEARS! while re-establishing the FAITH once delivered 1900 years ago!"
This man was Herbert W. Armstrong! How incredible humble he was!
The Greatest Church of Cognitive Dissonance for God!

Anonymous said...

What HWA predicted would happen didn't happen because America and the rest of the free world banded together to defeat the Germans not because there was a national repentence. To think that HWA had anything to do with defeating Hitler is insane. HWA was on just a handful of radio stations at that time reaching only a few hundred thousand listeners at best.

Anonymous said...

In the original STAR TREK episode, "The Way to Eden," the hippie-like characters the show centers on call Captain Kirk "Herbert!" as if it were the VERY WORST label a person could receive.

Respectable Trekker lore has it that one Herbert Solow, a production supervisor at Paramount (series producer Gene Roddenberry's boss, ostensibly) was the source of that epithet.

Yet, with a straight face, one Sabbath I had someone assuring me that that TV show was a vicious attack on "the man who [we believed -- then] restored The Truth."

The attribution of ANY significance AT ALL to this awful man, as anything more than a remarkably successful deceiver who created a false religion, is dangerous NONSENSE. The people who come forth with it need help.

I am so sorry the DISEASE of admiration for him still sickens minds!

Chuckles said...

If the USA truely repented then that means they were all called by God and turned to him, giving up their old way of life and obeying Jesus, I don't recall hearing anything like that ever happening, or did they all repent and then after the war turn back to their old selves again. Just more letters and HWA's way of conning more money out of his listeners, he did that from the beginning right to the end using anything or anyone he could think of to make people fearful and give more or make them feel guilty if they didn't. I hated those letters and how he stooped lower than a snakes belly with his words of trickery.

Anonymous said...

Well, thats one way to forcibly "resolve" the earliest period of HWA's failed predictions, although it doesnt address "Hitler did not DIE!"

Anonymous said...

On one of the threads in january or december I said that HWA did a great job in announcing a coming defeat to the USA in a time that the great democracy of the USA was not in any way inclined to intervene in the "European war".

This inclination to help the nearly defeated British only arose to the general public (the voter) after Pearl Harbor.

There was no inclination whatsoever to supply the communist Soviet Union. The Soviet Union the indispensable nation to defeat Nazi Germany. It was only because of the British heroes of the merchant shipping supplying Murmansk that the Soviets and therefore the Western World was saved.

Not because of 1941 democratic and war wary United States who did not want to be engaged in an "international problem".

So once again HWA publicising the horors of a Germanic overrun in print and on the airwaves did something that at least president Roosevelt must have aproved of.

nck

Anonymous said...

Amazing Fact No. 3 - This amazing man got America to repent!
Although this mass repentance has not typically been documented, there can be no doubt that it happened since the United States of America did not suffer defeat nor did we lose 1/3 of our population, nor did we become slaves.


O-TAY!
Here's another example of the same kind of pretzel logic-

The total destruction of the Universe will happen unless pigs fly.
Pigs will only fly if one man gets drunk on 2 bottles of Dom Pérignon and then rapes his daughter repeatedly while planning his next fist-pounding sermon.
Amazing Fact: Only one man - so incredibly humble that he goes only by the name "Herbie"- got pigs to fly!
Although pigs flying has not typically been documented, there can be no doubt that it happened since the total destruction of the Universe did not occur.

Anonymous said...

The article skipped the best parts about how Herbert Armstrong then proceeded to shoot 19 holes-in-one in a single round of golf, extemporaneously solved each problem of quantum mechanics, and composed the ending to Mozart's Requiem on a cocktail napkin on his 7th ascent to the peak of Mt. Erebus, where he shat a gold ingot.

Anonymous said...

So in other words re my earlier posting.

The United States repented after Pearl Harbor of being not involved in international politics.
This is a mistake that Donald Trump is likely to repeat. If he becomes president and if he talks to the rest of the world as he talks to its domestic audience, the rest of the world might just pull the plug under the dollar and destroy the USA. If If If ...... I know. Because of all the "" If" 's people need prophets to tell you of you "sins" of "omission.


nck

Anonymous said...

Hey 9:52
I see we posted nearly the same facts.
Only you used the facts to say HWA was crazy.
And I claim hwa was in line with Roosevelts policy to engage internationally.

I believe I am right because HWA was in line with the State Department EVER!
That why he was such a powerful tool and so highly decorated by the Japanese and Israel

nck

Anonymous said...

The silly author of this nonsense keeps using the word "fact." It does not mean what he thinks it means.

Anonymous said...


“Was Herbert Armstrong America's Greatest War Hero?”


That little document reads like a silly joke that was written to entertain those who know the truth, but that could get those without any sense of humour all worked up about it if they thought the writer was serious.

Of course, it would be tragic if the writer was serious and did not think that he was joking.

Anonymous said...

8:48
True.
The posting is composed with the usual wit and tongue in cheek.
But the gist of it all again negates that hwa was always in line with the state department official policy. Only the level of influence stands under discussion. Not that hwa dispersed the values of the "internationalistic wing" of the state department as opposed to the "isolationist" faction that "lost".

nck

Anonymous said...

Okay, people. Maybe if this was posted on April Fools day you would have understood. This is called sarcasm. It may be well researched and have a "logical" conclusion, but even true Armstrong believers don't credit him with saving the USA. Just have a laugh and go on.

Byker Bob said...

Didn't HWA get in with the Japanese because Sam Gotoh, who used to drive a cab in Tokyo, and knew about politicians and brothels, greased the skids for him??? And then, the AICF PR machine took over, and made it appear as if HWA was seen to be some great one, on the list as possible candidates for the Nobel Peace Prize?

Come on, nck, you are dreaming! You are as bad as the guy who sent the letter to Gary!

BB

Anonymous said...

10:28

BB

I guess you're right.

I'll ask the next cabdriver to get me an introduction to the emperor so I can be awarded "for my part on Okinawa".

And while I am at it I'll get Stan to have PM Begin interupt his cabinet meeting and drive the one hour drive from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and vice versa and meet me coming from Egypt.

I know cab drivers are powerful people, especially if I am to catch a plane.

nck

Black Ops Mikey said...

This as been a magnificent companion article to "Herbert W. Armstrong -- A Legend in His Own Mind".

Anonymous said...

Yes, nck is in an odd state of dreaming.
Prayers won't help him.
He'll die with his particular inculcated corkscrew of strangeness winding through his brain- resulting in kooky dreams as he takes his last breath. (While he thinks, "They'll all eventually come to accept my Truth!...It's indisputable!")

Mark NPM said...

Of course Herbie didn't win the war single-handed — L Ron Hubbard did (at least, according to himself he did) ;)

Glenn said...

Gotoh got HWA in to meet Japan's (and other countries) leaders through bribery and puffery and lies. He told them HWA was a "rich American philanthropist" and then gave considerable amounts of cash, gold watches, cameras, jewelry and airplane tickets to anyone he thought might grease the skids a little. In Pasadena I had access to copies of the telexes Gotoh would send to various people in his attempts to build up HWA and obtain meetings with officials. I also paid the bills he ran up. He simply bought his way in. Throw in some Stuben Crystal for HWA to hand out, then tack on funding for special projects in each country and HWA magically gets in for a 15 minute photo op with a big wig. HWA then can publish those photos of himself and a photo bombing Stan Rader in church publications to prove to the people that he is doing God's work around the world - so send in more money!

James said...

Amazing Historical Fact No. 1: World War II was a judgment on America and America would lose the war unless it repented!

The USA never repented. People still had sex with those not married to them. Homosexuals did their thing, bankers fucked people out of their homes, preachers lied, and Herbie had his dick in his daughters vagina.

Amazing Fact No. 2 - One man was willing to take on the responsibility of turning America around!

Well Herbie may very well appeared to take on the responsibility but if the truth is to be known, Herbie shucked off that responsibility. You see, Herbie gave aid and comfort to Americas enemies by printing and ranting on the radio that the USA would lose the war and Herbie still had his dick in his daughters vagina.

Herbie didn't really want America to fail because the chances are, he would have to conform to the Nazi state on anything he was to print in the future if they won the war. He would have become a vassal of the Nazi government. For Herbie it was about money. People would send in money trying to change Gods mind on destroying the USA. Its called 'buying off'. You know, like they could lobby God to win the war. The way business is conducted in Washington today.

Amazing Fact No. 3 - This amazing man got America to repent!> ..and Herbie still had his dick in his daughters vagina.

Circular logic based on nothing but propaganda. Please send this article to the press so all can share in the laugh. America can use a little humor in these distressful time.

Anonymous said...

Yes, greatest war hero. It's therefore only fitting that a replica of his head be put on the Statue of Liberty, and that his face be added to Mount Rushmore.

Connie Schmidt said...

And here I thought it was AUDIE MURPHY and PAPPY BOYINGTON who were a couple of America's greatest war heroes. I guess you learn something new every day!

Anonymous said...

Glenn,

Thank you for shedding some light on modus operandi of doing business in the seventies. It is also explained in the Reinfrank letter of resignation.

The last word on the specificics I mentioned is on the emperor (not accessible to 99%).
He specifically awarded hwa with the highest distinction possible for a foreign citizen "for his part on the Okinawa issue."

Okinawa, quite a bit larger and strategic than a piece of Steuben.

Everything else I ever said on here is true and factual also, except for the strange twists that make me look like a fool.

Again you describe "operations" (as also disclosed by others) but I am still unchallenged on the facts I have been presenting since last year october.

nck

Glenn said...

nck,

No offense intended, but it seems that you have been presenting a lot of statements and then making several assertions since last October. I haven't seen facts that can be crossed checked to prove that HWA was in the employ of, or under the influence of, or doing the bidding of the CIA or other US intelligence services as you seem to suggest.

Also, the man was quite charming at times and ingratiated himself to some foreign leaders. HWA said (I think) that the Israelis and Egyptians used him to pass some messages back and forth so I do not doubt that intelligence agencies of several countries had an interest in HWA and Stan Rader and Gotoh.

Also, could you sum up in a couple of sentences what your main thesis is about HWA as a agent of government intrigue? I don't need supporting facts and arguments for that one. I would just like to see a simple, direct statement of what you believe on that issue. Thanks.

Byker Bob said...

Right on, Glenn. If he cannot substantiate it in any way that is convincing, then it's time to write him off as being some sort of pretender who enjoys yanking our chains, a jerk seeking our attention. Anyone can make claims regarding deliberately secretive organizations, whether governmental, mob, or even the witness protection program. Any of this speculation regarding HWA's connectedness ends up being about as provable as British Israelism or Simon Magus. We've all seen enough of it!

BB

Anonymous said...

"Circular logic based on nothing but propaganda."
March 15, 2016 at 3:42 PM

Amazing! Math is fun! Math is true!

Anonymous said...

Nck, I'm also interested in this outline. I remember coming across ideas like this some years ago but the urls have since 404'd.

Anonymous said...

1) Glenn,
Lately I have toned down. Also in recognition of the overall atmosphere of satire and humor so overwhelmingly present on this board. Moreover I apologized for having been the proverbial sore thumb.

Once in a while though I get in a fit when the “fun” just doesn’t corroborate the actual record of the Church or the HSG triade if you will.

A simple direct statement does not do justice to what I have to say.
You are right. I packaged my factual statements in truly odd assertions. Those who are willing to investigate beyond “15 minute photo opps for the false prophet” can make the distinction between what is nuts and what is true and make rapport with a statement like “ HWA said (I think) that the Israelis and Egyptians used him to pass some messages back and forth so I do not doubt that intelligence agencies of several countries had an interest in HWA and Stan Rader and Gotoh.”. Others best ignore the call sign nck.

Indeed what you said was common knowledge at the time. HWA carried messages. No strings, no conspiracy theories attached. It just is what it is and it was common knowledge in the church.
It explains why Israeli PM would drive for over an hour to meet HWA and why the GII was the first civilian plane to be allowed to fly from Egypt to Jerusalem after the Israeli Egyptian war.
If it were a “photo opp” it would have been the Israeli PM going to the motion of the “opp” unless hwa was carrying a message.
Does that make hwa a “very important person”. No I don’t think so. A lot of junior diplomats beyond suspicion are used to carry “personal messages” between world leaders that cannot officially communicate with one another because of political backlash or official policy.

Anonymous said...

2)
I have said before that I feel too much emphasis is put on hwa because he was the one guarding the “faith”. There were others guarding “the business.” Although hwa was a far more intelligent and sharper man in private than in official church capacity, in contact with real powerful politicians he mostly came across as a “non learned”, naive person with only general knowledge on particular countries. His description of Switzerland in sermons is not unlike the portrayal in the “Sound of Music.”

Quite a contrast to SR. (Who btw often hopped off the returning GII, “because of some business he had to conduct in Washington.”

Assertion one. I don’t believe any civilian can meet a world leader unless he is debrieved.
Another thing gathered from all the “official literature” is that whenever hwa is accoladed. For instance being presented the highest award for a civilian by the Japanese emperor, or a cross by the Patriarch of Jerusalem or many more awards you see that hwa nearly always said that he did not have a clue as to why he was presented such an honor.

Now, my dear mummy would interpret that as a sign of his humility. But why not take his word for granted? That his “church” persona really did not have a clue as to why it was so important what he or his entourage did.
He really might have felt that he “powerfully preached the unseen hand”’ to the emperor or others.

While the emperor felt obliged to “acknowledge his role in the reversal of Okinawa from the US to Japan.” Glenn, I am telling you emperor Hirohito don’t do photo opps. As a matter of fact. There is no photo of hwa and hirohito taken on the occassion. Only the US ambassador to Japan and hwa were allowed to meet the emperor and the ambassador to Japan was not to speak.

I will try to keep it short. On my next assertion.
On another occassion SR and G were invited by the entire military leadership of the Philipines on Bonifacio armybase in Manila. If you read up on Marcos I believe the CIA poured some 80 million dollars into the Phillipines to support it’s ally president Marcos until the early eighties when the dictator became unbearable to the people of the philipines. After Marcos installed his dictatorship by the installment of martial law in the early 1970’s his spearhead program was “the new society.” A wcg member wrote a book on the merits of that program.

Anonymous said...

3) Quote
“He said the Foundation's parent organization, the Worldwide Church of God, will devote much of its spiritual, human, physical, and financial resources in furthering the goals and aspirations of the Filipino people and the government of the Philippines [so] that they strive together to bring to fruition all the objectives of the new society.”
Now I am not going to make the call on whether this is “humanitarian” or “political” support. You know to some in government it doesn’t really matter if there is a distinction to be made.
In any case it brought hwa “the philipino presidential medal of merit.”
Now officially publicised was a “generous gift of 25000 US dollars for a period of 10 years.” As others have pointed out. This amount is hardly pocket money or small change for a dictator who reportedly stole billion from his people. (under the watchfull eye of the state department)

Now why would such dictator worth billions award someone (with a photo opp and presidential medal) for an amount of money that is hardly small change? My mummie would answer, because it was God’s man that was recognized. Personally I would make another assertion surpassing the account payable of Gotoh.

I believe hwa was just the spearhead (knowing or unknowing) of another “empire”. Either the American empire or the personal empire of clever businessmen. His earlier career as “the ideaman” to the chamer of commerce of chicago and other businessmen prepared him for what we nowadays would call a strategic consultant. In that regard it is interesting to see who in hwa’s entourage in reality became advisors to the Japanese business world or Chinese government.

I have far more to say. But I have already extended your invitation to expound with short and simple sentences beyond my mandate.

Thanks for listening Glenn.
nck

Anonymous said...

In addition to my earlier 3 posting response to Glenn and BB's response on being convincing.

On this blog there is a link called, "I don't know what to make of this one".

The person who wrote the tag to that link probably did not order the book by Gilder.

Again, the book does not corroborate contact between scary agencies and wcg.

It merely draws attention to the fact that specific radio stations operated by certain government agencies during the cold war had a hard time financing itselves were it not for a certain radio broadcast paying substantial sums enabling the stations to function.

nck

Anonymous said...

I agree that nck is a "silly author" and is very loose in the use of what he calls, "facts"!

Byker Bob said...

Nck, you just presented a repackaged batch of speculation combined with logic. How do you "know" the things which you claim to know? Were you part of HWA's travelling staff on the G-II? When Gary shares certain things with us, we know they are based on his experiences while working in HWA's Pasadena residence. When Dennis shares, we know that his posts are based on 23 years in the WCG field ministry. When Douglas shares, we know that he was once a valued consultant to the ministry and administration of some of the splinters. Glenn worked in accounting and has solid information to share. And there are others. Maybe if you shared who you are, and how you know these things, your posts would carry more weight. Up until now, you really have not shared anything substantive that we could sink our teeth into. You understand where we are coming from?

BB

Anonymous said...

Hi nck,

The more we read your comments, the more we become convinced that you are in need of mental help.

Have you considered starting your own church, like Bob Thiel did?

I may be wrong, but I peg you as having a "triple dose" of something that practically makes starting one's own church inevitable.

Have you advertised in The Journal? That seems a good fit for you.

All the best,
Henry F. Chicklets

Anonymous said...

Don't expect any proof from NCK. He can't provide any. He is just as nutty as Trading Guy with his financial conspiracies. Just more proof that Armstrongism warps the minds of its followers.

Anonymous said...

BB
Just a short intermission here.
The truth is even stranger than fiction.

Did you know that hwa and SR visited the former king of belgium. The next day hwa was scheduled to meet nakasone in paris who was there at the oecd.

here it comes

SR left belgium for paris on a commercial flight only 4 hours before the GII was scheduled to depart to paris with hwa in order to arrange for hwa's hotel in paris.

Now, this occurence was mentioned by hwa to prove to the entire ministry the unbound loyalty and care SR had for the work and hwa personally. Now in retrospect don't you think this was odd, stranger than fiction. I really don't believe SR needed these 4 hours to arrange for the paris hotel. Dang, the private jet was already warming up and he took a commercial flight. But on the other hand someone here lurking might just confirm that to me and deconstruct any thoughts I have on this occurence.

Now BB and others.
I would completely accept it if you would say that my theories are nuts.
But I must contend that most of you with few exceptions have been extremely vague or general in your criticism on my musings.

I would be more inclined to offer more information if you would be more precise. For instance ask a question like I don't believe the 10 x 25000 dollars to "marcos new society program"? or when did SR get invited by the philipine army? or just any sensical question instead of your random , you are nuts, start a church comments.

I really would like to be of service. I have nothing to gain, just losing time with rehashing the basics on wcg.

nck



Anonymous said...

HWA with his epic narcisstic supply probably attracted other unscrupulous people who would try to use this to extort HWA for money or favor. But, nations and world leaders? Sorry, but I do not see how 'intelligence agencies' would see HWA as a high valued asset. HWA seems to be only successful with irrational diehard bible believers. So, if there was any 'intelligence work', HWA had no part in it. He was only a legend in his own mind and maybe still one in your mind. Although I'll have to admit he was a legendary con himself.

"Don't BELIEVE me! Believe THE BIBLE and PROVE it! LET GOD open your eyes to SEE ME as God's chief WORKman!" HWA

That was HWA's greatest confidence trick and the mini-me's are still fighting over it to this very day.

DBP

Anonymous said...

BB said:"How do you "know" the things which you claim to know?"

To be fair, that can be said about everybody.(philosophically speaking)
;)

thanks for the link to that book, nck

DBP

Byker Bob said...

Nck, continuing to be cagey, and evasive certainly doesn't help your cause. If you worked for or with HWA or Stan Rader, why not just come out and say it? If not, and if you have other ways of proving an alliance with government agencies, we'd love to hear them. We're not like all of the naive people out there who deny the incest. If you have other than speculation, out with it! If what you say is true, it needs to go with the rest of the body of accumulated knowledge on HWA. But as of right now, what you say is questionable at best, and koo koo at worst.

BB

Glenn said...

nck,

I appreciate your responses.

I agree that it was extremely unusual for HWA to get an audience with the Emperor of Japan. I also agree that Stan Rader had lots of contacts with officials in Washington, DC, especially during the Nixon administration. I think his daughter was a White House intern at one time. Stan also developed some relationships with officials in China, as has Robert Kuhn in more recent years. I personally do not see those things as part of a conspiracy or a CIA operation but I will keep an open mind if relevant evidence comes into play.

Anonymous said...

1)
a) Glenn,

Thank you for your acknowledgement of the unusual nature of hwa’s audience with the emperor.

You do not seem to recognize yet that the emperor granted the widely publicised award for “the role on Okinawa.” Thank you again for making the bridge with the “nixon administration.” You even take this a small step further by connecting “the nixon administration” with our own “shadow administration at wilthire blvd.”

As you can see I have made efforts to not use the word “conspiracy”. Definitions might differ. It is my claim that hwa was sincere in what he believed he was doing (preaching the gospel). I also hinted at the fact that he actually did not have a clue of what he in reality was doing (international high level diplomacy). If a search was to be made on all the postings that I made. You will find that I never connect the cia to wcg directly.

I do have claimed however odd synchronisity between US foreign policy and hwa’s overall message. (which is not what was published in wcg literature)
As a matter of fact it was the Carter administrations official policy to be “moral” on foreign policy issues and allow representatives of religions to conduct diplomatic missions. (There is literature on that in the best centers of education).

nck

Anonymous said...

2)

Citing pres Marcos at the ceremony for the Presidents special merits medal to hwa.
“For his moral presence and compelling influence in moving people toward the creation of a just and peaceful world order.”

Now Glenn, non here would acknowledge Marcos was speaking of hwa in this sentence. But is does oddly synchronise with official Carter administration diplomacy would you not?


Glenn. You play down my remark on Stan and the Philipines by saying he made “some” connections.
Perhaps rightly so.
What is 250.000 dollars compared to the 80 million in support of the “new society”.

In front of all generals of the Philipines Stan said.
“the Foundation's parent organization, the Worldwide Church of God, will devote much of its spiritual, human, physical, and financial resources in furthering the goals and aspirations of the Filipino people and the government of the Philippines [so] that they strive together to bring to fruition all the objectives of the new society.”

Again, I am not using the words “covert”, “cia”, “conspiracy”. I would use the word “nudge” though or “odd synchronisity”. I stand behind those last 2 words. What helps in research is to not only read wcg literature but read about the wider context in which it operated. (the world at large during the cold war)


b) DBP
DBP staunchly rejects my thesis. At least he has the guts to acknowledge the information I provided linking to an accredited University. I leave it up to him to judge the credibility of said institution and professor. At least DBP is honest and fair.

Anonymous said...

3)

c) BB
Well BB is like the friendly neighbour invited for barbecue who suddenly starts asking probing questions on my salary and my girlfriend. In other words I invited him to ask direct questions and he starts probing about my identity.

Because he is well respected, also by me I will answer a question he did not ask.
Although if he is interested in the future I expect direct question not vague accusations.

You asked about direct government involvement.
Let me summarize with an example of hwa in Syria in order to illustrate how real diplomacy works (not the james bond kind but plain boring diplomacy). Let’s hear from the pro’s.

Quote
“On May 7, the office of Syrian Prime Minister Abdul-Ra’ouf al-Kassem made available a courtesy vehicle for Mr. Armstrong and the entourage for their travels to the National Museum.
From the National Museum, the group, with the addition of
U.S. Ambassador William Eagleton,
drove to the office of their official Syrian host for their visit, Najah al-Attar, the minister of culture.”
“Mr. Armstrong drove to the home of Ambassador Eagleton and his wife, Kay, for a luncheon meeting which had 15 attendants, including key embassy personnel”
“That evening he returned to the Eagleton’s home as requested for dinner with various archeological personalities involved in their excavation. After a light meal, “The ambassador thanked Mr. Armstrong for allowing him to be part of the Ambassador Foundation’s activities in Syria.
He explained that the U.S. government gets partial credit for any successful project whether the government has any official part in it”
The following day, May 8, Mr.
Afterward, in a rare display of honor from the Syrian government, a luncheon was hosted in Mr. Armstrong’s honor by Dr. Attar on the 15th floor of the Cham Palace Hotel.
“Then Mr. Eagleton spoke”

Than hwa joked about working for the government.
As guest of honor, Mr. Armstrong spoke last and stunned his audience by telling them he worked for the U.S. government! “Half of my salary goes to the government and another part to the state of California.
(which was not true since wcg was a Colorado trust ibid nck)

The ambassador thanked Mr. Armstrong for allowing him to be part of the Ambassador Foundation's activities in Syria. We learned later from Ambassador Eagleton that it is a rare honor for a government official to play host to a lunc;heon for a private individual, like Mr. Armstrong.
(This is the naivity I hinted at. Ibid nck) Plain boring diplomacy.

nck

Anonymous said...

WARNING the following is a personal pet theory.

Since I have taken the time to educate on international diplomacy, I feel I can take the liberty to insert a personal insight.

Some here have claimed that hwa gave our money to our enemies.
I would say, he gave it to our friends.

Like most of you when hwa would meet the king of nepal I would be proud that the gospel was preached to kings. Later I got the insight that the spiritual preaching was accompanied by a) physical aid (foundation). B) direct foreign investment (since the preaching was done to local rotary members as a representative of the Los Angeles Rotary.)

When I followed in hwa’s footsteps and entered Nepal, the poorest nation on earth I was startled to see the size of the US embassy as compared to the royal complex just opposite the mission. (look it up on google earth) It’s massive. I wondered how can it be that the US embassy in the poorest nation on earth is bigger in size than the one in Paris?

Now I am sure that those who silently enjoy nck’s crazy theories already acknowledged nepal’s position between China, the Indian landmass and of course Tibet.

How does this story relate to our mutual acquaintance hwa? Of course it doesn’t relate to it at all. It’s just good for the US to have a friend like Nepal and aid the farmers so they won’t fall in the trap of Maoist ideology.

nck

Byker Bob said...

Ah, yes, blah blah blah, and another totally unsourced quote. A seventh grader knows to use footnotes in term papers indicating the sources of quotes.

Also, did you know that it is a common "joke" or indictment of the confiscatory system of income taxes to claim to be working for the government? Get it? Large part of salary going to the feds and state? This used to be a cliche.

Other religious figures have accomplished much more than HWA, and humbly stayed in the background, rather than exploiting all of the photo ops in their own house organs or magazines.

I believe at this point, since you will not share anything of a personal nature which could possibly substantiate the credibility of the information you share, that you are most likely some dude sitting around in a dank and dark basement room in your underwear, aspiring to somehow be relevant. If I met someone in a classroom, or working at a customer location, or just in a store or on the street, presenting himself in the same manner as you do, there is no way that I could find them credible. You are far too superficial, preferring conjecture to the presentation of verifiable quotations, or facts. Yet, like an old school WCG minister, you expect us to accept what you present as fact, unchallenged, simply because you say it. There is a vast difference between presenting verifiable sources, or attempting to use logic and supposed knowledge of international diplomacy to massage your contentions. That's why you have needed to waste so many words in an attempt to validate your theory.

BB

Anonymous said...

nck said:"DBP staunchly rejects my thesis."

I stated that I would also like to hear more info about your possible thesis. I only took a guess for the sake of joking about the irony of HWA and "intelligence work".

nck, you gotta learn how to present a more clear and concise summary of your suppositions. There are many books out there and on the interwebs to be bought or even borrowed from a digital library and at your own leisure. So, learn something new and stay honest with yourself. I also don't think you realize how you come across to people here. Maybe this can explain your puzzlement at to why other people don't get it.

DBP

Anonymous said...

1)
DBP
I love that irony, humor, satire.
You are right on two accounts. And in the spirit of “cheers trading guy” I will compensate that accordingly in this posting.
a) Puzzlement!
You are so right. I make deliberate attempt to not come across as someone who cares. This behavior was also formed after accusations that I was trying to lure people into “my fold.”

Only BB has come forward to make clear how he feels about my contributions. Instead of resorting to common insults like “hitler” or “mao” he has invoked the worst lifeform he has ever encountered to insult, and called me “like a wcg minister”. To him that must be just one level lower than the amoebe. LOL

b) You care about me being concise.
In my thinking the longer sentences were relating to those who asked for more information. And short would appeal to those dismissing anything with an h a w and an a in it.
I have no intention to write a thesis on a board designed for spectacular satire. It would immediately put me up for assignment as paid contributor to the journal. (which I find a great effort by the way, I don’t read the advertised articles)
I am trying to abide by implicit rules by not posting in disturbing manner on any thread anymore.

But even when I post explicit warning that I am posting personal information on international encounters in the footsteps of the topic at hand. BB claims the exact opposite that I seem to live in a cave. And this has occurred several times. How can you beat that?

Anonymous said...

2)
Now back to the show.
I post on a lot of topics. (bb called it superficial). I grant him that. One person might just be interested on Syria and the other on israel and maybe another on the radio stations, “intelligence connection.”

I have said over and over “ask and you will be given.” DBP you asked about the radio stations. I gave you the link. That is how it works in my world. I will not produce doctoral thesis here.

Now, if that would be a topic of interest of you. How difficult is it to type that into google nowadays. Another day I referred to radio swan in the caribean on wikipedia. Some here immediately dismissed wikipedia as a reliable source. You know, I don’t care what these people say. If one would really be interested in said topic even a superficial google search would direct to other sources. And even if for you it would not produce evidence of “intelligence involvement” at least it would take you on an enjoyable ride on operations, bay of pigs, kennedy and I leave it up to your research how they were able to finance the operation. And yes you will also stumble on wtm broadcast payments.

Anonymous said...

3)
How do you expect me to source everything while most people here are interested in satire and fun. That is the reason I said please ask on particulars, not because I deliberately attempt to come across as pompous. Athough I like it that way, I admit.

Now DBP, I said I would compensate you for you care.
For purposes on this board I will only refer to open sources. I referred over and over to church bulletins in an attempt to counter the claims that “members did not know where the money went.” Although they of course did not know about the embezzlement. (which was common in all corporations in the seventies, although perhaps not on the level of the wiltshire gang.

a) You expressed interest in the Syria story.
You could have easily googled it but the most easy source for you to access is Worldwide News, May 27, 1985.
b) You expressed interest in the Rader, “new society” connection. That is in the Manila Bulletin of March 22 1980.
But perhaps easier for you to access. The Pastor General Report March 28, 1980.

I have referred to the above sources as “common knowledge” for anyone with an opinion on wcg.
Personally I do not see any added value in dispersing “common knowledge.” As I said earlier in this posting on radio swan. For those with time, following the leads, will take one on the journey of a lifetime. It will take you on a journey on landownership in the Phillipines, the history of the Marcos’s, covert operations, US foreign Policy, Buthan, Nepal, covert operations against Tibet, mistresses in Pasadena, us – syrian relations and cultural exchange during the massacres of hama, drilling for wealth in new guinea, the brave british sailors sailing the northern seas to murmansk while the us was deliberately isolationist and one nutcase behind a radio in hollywood on perhaps limited radio stations warning about the german threat etc etc etc

I leave it up to you where you place wcg or hwa in all this, I don’t care.
I just wish for those who enjoy research the thrill ride of a lifetime. AND PLEASE PLEASE although information may be found in dissident literature. BE WARNED ABOUT CULTS.

Anonymous said...

Now DBP,

In one final move I am going to do 3 more things in 1 swoop.
1) Yank BB's chain one more time
2) Give you another interesting fact to ponder
3) Honor the purpose of this blog by returning to the original subject

The original posting here starts with the ridiculous way hwa is making predictions.

I countered that in this thread by saying that in the final analysis hwa was on the right side of history as opposed to the isolationist faction (or the german constituency of voters at that vital time when germany stood unopposed by the usa.

Now.
Of course a learned man (perhaps like yourself) will counter that by saying. Yes nck but after the Germans were defeated he didn't stop preaching about the "possible"dangers of germanic rise to power." They turned out to be friendly productive allies. So hwa as a forecaster was on the wrong side of history in the end.

My thesis would be that hwa was again perfectly in sync with the "Petersberg Agreement of 22 november 1949. In which the United States maintained a "state of war" with Germany (for legal reasons)

It was only under the terms of the 1990 "Treaty on the final settlement with respect to Germany" that the four powers renounces all rights they held in Germany. So Germany only became a full sovereign nation again only four years after hwa died.
So on march 15 1991 the issue on the articles 53 and 107 of the UN Charter which named Germany as an "enemy state" was settled and definitively legally in 1995.

Now perhaps you ask. nck you are crazy. How does this historical story relate to the charlatan we know. (except that the german office was right under the nose of the seat of the military high commissioners of the four powers.)

My answer again is nothing. It has nothing to do with it.
Only that hwa had preached a political message on Germany during the entirety of his life that was legally correct, if you leave the bible stuff out of it.

So on a wcg level you may dismiss it all if you so please. But at least this posting on hwa took you on a wild ride on international diplomacy.

I wrote this out of appreciation for your care DBP.

nck out



Anonymous said...

To add one more perspective to my last "germany" posting.

While Germany was under "legal" occupation, as stipulated by the relevant and quoted treaties, the wtm program on radio Luxembourg and other stations reached a possible audience of 100.000 man and women of the legions of the "legally occupying" force at war, with a message that was not alien to their mission. (and of course "the "israelite" nations if you please)

Now how about that for a change of perspective?
(Something different from Casey Kasem's benign message, not?)

nck

Anonymous said...

To add one more perspective to my last "germany" posting.

While Germany was under "legal" occupation, as stipulated by the relevant and quoted treaties, the wtm program on radio Luxembourg and other stations reached a possible audience of 100.000 man and women of the legions of the "legally occupying" force at war, with a message that was not alien to their mission. (and of course "the "israelite" nations if you please)

Now how about that for a change of perspective?
(Something different from Casey Kasem's benign message, not?)

nck

Anonymous said...

It's as if I just popped into a parallel universe where I guess I just had an argument with someone over something I never posted. Maybe in that universe that version of me can post directly to his mind. Who knows? I just know that my feedback will be strangely twisted into whatever he needs it to be. You can keep on dancing with yourself all you want but I'm gonna invert my event horizon to your cosmic horizon.

DBP

ps: in the off-chance that your not an assburger troll, dude use the digital library and learn ANYTHING new and NOT realated to armstrong, geopolitics, commerce, trade, and DO take a break, lighten up, play with some puppies, get some fresh air, etc.........

Byker Bob said...

DPB, I kept halfway expecting Rod Serling to appear to make things come clean, or to add some sense to it all, but when he did not, I had to figuratively change the channel. Although it was very strange and time-wasting, this was a process we often see to conclusion, just in case there are some additional previously unknown facts that can be identified and added to the dossier of materials on one Herbert W. Armstrong. This batch ended up never rising above hearsay and speculation. "new conspiracy kook" either just jacked us around, or perhaps there was nobody home to begin with.

BB

Anonymous said...

DBP

"NOT realated to armstrong, geopolitics, commerce, trade"

That is not fair.
It was all about "the work". hwa did not intend to start a church. (unless it was the virtual radio church without members only contributors). It was in the early 1950's that the business manager advised him to set up more local churches or he would loose his tax exempt status.

Religion or Jeeesus, is not in my sphere of interest and it is also not true to the main thrust of "the Work." Despite everyone believing "the Work" was "the Church" and interchangeable. The church was just the cashflow.

I have not attacked anyone here displaying their (in my eyes) ridiculous current belief systems. But when confronted with the pastor general reports, or other reporting, or comparing real world treaties with the main gist of hwa's "message" people feel the need to get me some fresh air and dismiss it into the realm of the twilight zone.

nck

ps: I have one genuine question.
Are you DB of PT blog fame. If so, then if we encounter again I will raise my standard to that level of analysis instead of my usual rambling toward the anonymous call letters of identification. Then I was mistaken in encountering you the way I did.




Anonymous said...

DBP

You didn't get the sources you asked for?

nck

Anonymous said...

In 1966 the BBC broadcasted about 40 minutes of pop (american) music everyday.
The "pirate ships" broadcasted american culture 24 x 7. For a large chunck paid for by wtm advertising. 25 million brits tuned in every day to get their dose of americana

I guess your knowledge of said government organizations is limited to "homeland security."
Therefore you have to dismiss me as hearsay.

nck

Anonymous said...

Since DBP is into language.

On a lighter note.

Currently in all the major newspapers in England a debate is raging about the use of the exclamation mark!! Educators have been asked by the education office to put an end to this Americana (OMG!!)

"The exlamation mark is the natural enemy of british understatement."

Since I put this up here as a lighter note, please stop reading and laugh.

WARNING PERSONAL PET THEORY

Now you can pass this discussion as a ridiculous effort by the authorities. However it perfectly fits the "pirate ship" "americanization" struggle of the sixties. The emphasis on the "Emotionalisation" of everything and therefore commercialization and struggle for markets. (bernays)

The exlamation mark is just a symptom!

nck

If after this theory you are into something lighter again. Download the movie "the boat that rocked" purely for entertainment purposes and good music.


Anonymous said...

My 1:42 posting got stuck in the system for over 50 hours.
In the meantime I figured that DBP and DB are not the same.

I have gathered that P stands for Philosopher. So I expected you to have recognized the "socratic debate" in my posting instead of dismissing it into the realm of "dancing with myself" in "silver lining playbook" manner.

cheers

nck