Sunday, February 19, 2017

World is too stupid to know that Jesus created the Internet for the COG's!



UPDATE from Lee Clark see comment below.

This post was from December 24, 2016

More nonsense from Lee Clark:

God created the Internet for the Gospel

I am absolutely convinced that this is a massive door that Jesus Christ has swung open on an unsuspecting world to get His final warning message out to a suicidal planet!! And if Jesus Himself has unlocked this door, then NO MAN CAN SHUT IT!! It will only be shut when Jesus Himself decides to shut it, and then no man will be able to open it!! So we can look to the Philadelphian letter and take courage in the fact that it is God Himself who has opened this door! No man can shut it on us, so we can walk through it with courage and confidence!
This reminds me of the nonsense that the church taught about the printing press and airplanes.

It was widely taught that the printing press was created for the sole purpose of HWA printing all of his booklets, magazines and books.  Any other type of book is just peripheral nonsense compared to the truth of HWA.

Once Herb started gallivanting around the world after the death of his wife Loma, he started claiming that airplanes were created for the express purpose of the apostle to be able to fly to the ends of the earth with the "gospel"message.

Both claims are entirely false, as is Lee Clark's claim about the Internet.

74 comments:

Black Ops Mikey said...

Fast reverse to two decades ago. Remember?

According to the Armstrongists, the Internet was 99% lies.

Now the ACoGs come along and embrace it, obviously hoping that they can make 100% lies.

The Painful Truth said...

Idiocy! Do you know how many people have wrote the Painful Truth to thank me and others from saving them from what would have been their most stupid decisions ever? It is the Internet that is keeping the movement from growing, and not by my hand or Gary's. It is by the mouth of the guru(s) that is destroying armstrongism. Simply absurd crap like this makes them look as they are. Buffoons!

Byker Bob said...

It's cool to be able to say that your faith group is up on the latest technology, and can use it in an attempt to fulfill its mission. But, it's self-centered, arrogant, and frankly a repellant to your gospel if you insist that technology was developed expressly and specifically for you and your group.

There are those who hold to the notion that Johann Gutenberg's primary achievement was making the Bible more or less ubiquitous. The fact is, the printing press made it possible to publish a wide variety of data and opinions on the Bible, a very small, statistically negligible pecentage of which has come from the Armstrong movement.

If an ACOG member had invented or developed computers and the ability for them to communicate with one another, it would be one thing. With the ways in which intellectual pursuits and science are regarded in the whacky world of Armstrongism, we all know that that wouldn't have been allowed. Some minister would have most likely told the aspiring inventor to resign from the project, and then disfellowshipped him for giving two week's notice.

Lee Clark is mighty naive. The internet has actually retarded the spread of Armstrongism by publishing the facts which disprove it, facts that my parents and other members did not have readily available to do their due diligence back in the 1950s-90s.

The correct, and amended quote for the new millennium is actually, "Honey, the internet has shrunken the church!"

BB

Hoss said...

...and computers. Don't forget the computer... and the IBM 2321 Data Cell, a piece of junk...

Anonymous said...

I got a good laugh out of that one! As soon as they put up their bullshit, a host of people, including us, are there to shout it down. But, hope springs eternal in the deluded heart.

Allen C. Dexter

Glenn said...

The wcg also claimed that God had the computer invented so that the organization could properly manage its mailing lists. So, the world can thank AC/WCG for the printing press, airplanes, and computers plus who knows what else.

Anonymous said...

I recall Herbie strongly implying that the latest model IBM computer that the church just purchased, was a miracle from God so that the work could expand.
It's interesting to note that worldwide, it's the freest countries that created the railway, the airplane, computers, the microchip, etc, while church like tyrannies (eg., communist countries) do not, and are forced to continually import and steal such technologies.

Byker Bob said...

Let's not let the ACOGs be the grinches that steal Christmas! Merry Christmas, everyone!

BB

Hoss said...

Computers again -- I remember back in the 1960s and 70s GTA ridiculed the idea of having a computer in your home.

In the 1980s, I saw an article in a computer journal, written by a WCG member, that said an IBM RJE (Remote Job Entry station, connected to a mainframe) was a better option than buying a PC.

Anonymous said...

I would like to comment on this post,but I hear someone coming down my chimney.I cannot imagine it to be Davie Pack or Bob (doubly blessed)Thiel,if it were that would be worth a "ho ho ho".Anyway happy Chanukah everyone.

Anonymous said...


A minister from the Worldwide Church of God visited Lee H. Clark. So, Lee Clark broke up with the girlfriend he was living with and started attending the Worldwide Church of God two days after the January 16, 1986 death of founder Herbert W. Armstrong.

Later, Lee Clark put up a website called the National Eagle. It predicted that the “Y2K computer problem” at the start of the year 2000 would bring down America. When that did not happen, Lee Clark admitted that he had been wrong and, of course, then claimed to have based his guesses on the testimony of others. On January 15, 2000, Lee Clark wrote, "Four years ago I knew nothing about the Internet, only that I wanted to know EVERYTHING about it and use it for God's work."

Lee Clark used the material from Donald H. Tiger's HWA CD project to make a website called HerbertArmstrong.com, which had many of Herbert W. Armstrong's writings on it.

In September 2000, Lee Clark said he had a dream in which Herbert W. Armstrong turned to him and said, "Young man, I don't ever want to see you again!" As a result of this dream, and the September 2000 Worldwide Church of God versus Philadelphia Church of God copyright court case results, Lee Clark took the writings of Herbert Armstrong off his website. Later, Lee Clark reconsidered and put them back up. Then, once again, he took them down.

Anonymous said...


Reproduced below is the text of an old letter that Lee H. Clark had posted at his National Eagle website. It explained why he took down his HerbertArmstrong.com website.

***Notice that Lee Clark is one of those guys who has crazy dreams.***


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EPHESIAN LETTERS
"Where's HerbertArmstrong.com?"
Lee Clark

A lot of you are probably coming here for the Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) site. Mine is no longer available. However, a search at Google or other search tool will yield many other HWA sites out there.

I took my site down the first time just before the Feast 2000 when two things happened. First, the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) won an appeal in their court battle with the Philadelphia Church of God over publishing rights to HWA's book "Mystery of the Ages". I reckoned that this was God saying don't republish any more copyrighted HWA material. Then I had a dream about HWA. I was in a car in the woods with a pretty young girl in the passenger seat, my date (God's church). But HWA was in another car, and I left the car I was in to go spend some time with HWA. I figured this was my big chance to spend some quality time with my hero. I felt guilty about abandoning my date like that, but I told her I'd be back in a minute or so.

Then HWA was surrounded by sycophants who fawned over him while I tried to tell him about all the travesties and abominations occurring in the WCG. But HWA turned to me and said, in a loud voice, "Young man, I don't ever want to see you again!"

This was a bit of a shocker. What I later came to see is that in his final years, HWA had become so insulated and isolated from the reality of what was going on in the Church that he refused to listen to any "criticism". I was just another subversive. I took this as God's way of telling me to drop the focus on HWA and get back to serving God's church. So I took the HWA site down, but soon put it back up due to many expressions of regret by readers.

It was also around this time, almost a year ago to the day, that God struck me down with debilitating fatigue, inability to sleep, chaos in my career, and all manner of disturbing, threatening dreams and visions. You'd think I would have gotten the message but no. I was really proud of my HWA site and even expanded it.


Continued below...

Anonymous said...


...continued from above.


Then about two months ago I had a real shocker. I was going through the most horrible episode of my life. I was getting very little sleep and the dreams were getting much worse and more intense. I had one where I was holding onto about a third of a loaf of Wonder Bread, freely offering it to everybody in the house. I had taken the bread from the kitchen without permission, but I assumed it was "OK". Then I felt a very strong supernatural hand grip me by the neck, and I was faced with two men who were quite annoyed by the fact that I was doling out this bread when I was unauthorized to do so.

I quickly expressed my willingness to cease and desist, hoping they would let me go. Then I awoke. Soon after, I took down the HWA site. During this period I was very debilitated by fatigue and could not accomplish anything at work. I left my job. Then the house I was renting sold, and I had to move on short notice. It took over a month to get my Internet connection back up, which is part of the reason that both my sites were down. The final nail in the coffin was when I accidentally deleted the database for my sites. I still have all the source material, but the database would have to be reconstructed from scratch, which I have no plans to do, unless it's just for the National Eagle.

Looking back, I can see God's hand in it, forcing me to drop my HWA focus. There were other indications too. I heard one voice say, "Philadelphia's gone". Another time I asked God what his plans were for all the HWA material. I got a response saying something like, "I think we're going to throw it away," or words to that effect. Bottom line is that I was pursuing my own agenda instead of God's. He's seems to be more interested in the present and the near future than the past. He did tell me this. He said, "Tell them to forsake all of their sins."

A warning?

I have noticed that many who have tried to publish HWA material mysteriously fail in some way or disappear from the scene. Some of you may want to take notice of this and think twice before grabbing the "HWA mantle."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous said...

Hey, Hoss! There was nothing wrong with the 2321. If used properly, it was a perfectly fine device that was quickly superseded by advances in Winchester drive technology.

I saw one at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. I think this was a year or two after WCG got rid of theirs. The guys at ORNL were using it as it was designed to be used, as a low access frequency storage device. DPC in Pasadena tried to use theirs to hold the mailing list with frequent accesses of the data. It was never designed for such heavy use so it frequently broke down.

But Clark's nonsense about the internet reminded me of Hugh Mauck's article in The Good News about the 2321 and how it was designed by God for WCG. They gave up on it about the time the article came out.

RSK said...

Incredibly self-serving, maybe, but its the comment equivalent of a puff piece.

Hoss said...

Anon 715:

I've been to a number of sites where the problem was overuse. That's why I prefer salesmen who served tine in product support.

So it 2321 wasn't meant to shoot the tapes like party streamers?


Michael said...

And let's not forget the invention of the wheel which, while having a few insignificant uses throughout history, most certainly existed primarily to allow G. Waterhouse to travel from coast to coast giving 4 hour sermons.

Anonymous said...

60.01 PM. It is Dave Pack coming down your chimney. He's coming to steal the Xmas presents. All for the work of course.

Hoss said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hoss said...

NO MAN CAN SHUT IT!!

Censorship and control of the Internet seems to be a big concern of Bob Thiel. He appears to think external control of the Internet will lead to the Famine of the Word (Amos 8:11).
But... it's a famine of hearing, and the Hebrew word translated as hearing means intelligent listening with understanding and obedience. Shaking the wrong end of the stick again?

Anonymous said...

This self aggrandizement by the slivers, also brings into question Herbies claim that the gospel is some future ruling kingdom rather than the personage of Christ. This sounds off, since the foundation of the future government is God the Father and Christ. This raises the suspicion that Herbie was playing the Catholic game of minimizing Christ and exalting the 'Vicar'(ie Herbie and his ministers) of Christ.

I'm not sure what the narrow gate is on this issue. But I know one can't blindly believe Herb.

Connie Schmidt said...

As I understand it, HWA was not happy when man first started exploring space and said that it was not the God Ordained time for man to be in the second heavens and wrote about such in a couple of church publications.

Later, when satellite technology allowed for him to broadcast simultaneously around the world at the FOT in the early 1980s, he claimed that God had helped create the technology to "further the gospel", LOL!

Connie Schmidt said...

Sing A Long Time! -- Sing to the tune "You're a mean one Mr. Grinch"

From the movie "The Pack who stole Sanity"


You're a mean one, Mr. Pack
You really are a heel.
You're as cuddly as a cactus,
You're as charming as an eel,
Mr. Paaaack
You're a bad banana with a greasy black peel.

You're a monster, Mr. Pack
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders.
You've got garlic in your soul, Mr Paaaaack
I wouldn't touch you with a
Thirty-nine and a half foot pole!!

RSK said...

I dont specifically know of HWA doing that during the space program heyday, Connie, but he very well might have. It would have fit right into his usual modus operandi of poopooing everything positive in current events.

I do remember a WCG pastor dolefully warning us the day after the Challenger disaster that "this is god telling man he does not belong up there". Which was really stupid, given that there had been plenty of successful space missions fot decades by then... :)

Byker Bob said...

I sell and work on a lot of the equipment that people use to further the gospel, and it's awesome to be able to do that for various of the Christian churches in my state. But the thing is, flyers for weekly services, and booklets and magazines comprise a small percentage of the applications for our equipment.

Our technology is an integral part of capitalism, allowing people to create beneficial products for which consumers are gladly willing to pay sums of money. Moneys are paid which allow the company owners and workers who used our products to produce their product to put food on their tables and raise their families. It's what makes America a productive country, and elevates so many from being bare subsistance farmers, or minimum wage workers below the poverty line. In fact, it makes possible the tithes to which these Armstrong cretin-ministers arrogantly insist goes to them, even though they are not physical Levites. Imagine that! "You are entitled to punishment because you are physical descendants of Manasseh and Ephraim, but I get all your tithes, even though I am not a descendant of the Levites!" Nice racket. That is a perfect example of the sort of conflicts that spring from centering everything around Armstrongism, as if fulfillment of their interpretation of prophecy or good fruits had actually validated them.

BB

Connie Schmidt said...

RSK above-

Here is a link from the PT Jan 1958 that has HWA describing space travel on a several page article. It is somewhat disdainful of space travel , but at its conclusion on page 10, he writes...

"GOD ALMIGHTY, who RULES the universe supreme, has DECREED: “The heaven, even the heavens, are THE ETERNAL’S: but the earth hath He given to the children of men” (Psalm 115:16).

Notice that same Scripture, in the Moffatt translation into modern English: “The Eternal, who made heaven and earth, the HEAVEN, that the Eternal holds Himself; the EARTH He has as- signed to men.”

Soon God will PUNISH this earth! Soon God will literally SHAKE the na- tions-shake the nonsense, rebellion and evil out of men, and awaken men to their true destiny! Yes, once again, God will soon intervene, lest man destroy human life from off this planet! Man’s PVWERS soon will be turned in the RIGHT direction! The KINGDOM OF GOD is today, VERY NEAR!
Men are soon going to learn that

GOD’SPURPOSE STANDS! God is not mocked!"
http://www.herbert-armstrong.org/Plain%20Truth%201950s/Plain%20Truth%201958%20(Vol%20XXIII%20No%2001)%20Jan.pdf

Anonymous said...

I also recall GTA saying over and over on his radio program, that 'if God allows man to land on the moon.." This is a case of the church leaders making God in their own image, micro managing other peoples lives. According to the parable of the talents, God is not a helicopter parent.

Byker Bob said...

I had enough faith at one point in what "Mr." Armstrong said, that I put my money where my mouth was! In fourth grade, I placed a bet with one of my classmates. I bet him a dime that man would never go to the moon. Unfortunately, by the time that man did, I was living on the other side of the continent, and had lost contact with the kid. Bummer.

BB

Hoss said...

the day after the Challenger disaster that "this is god telling man

With claims to having the gift of prophecy and such, they still don't get it right. Make predictions that don't come true, and in hindsight explain disasters happened as God's punishment.

I remember GTA writing that after the Columbia disaster, he and the guys drove off looking for shuttle debris, hoping to pick up some sour\venirs...

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob said "I bet him a dime that man would never go to the moon."

Thanks to our glorious post-truth (or, 'post-factual') era, you can now consider yourself to be the winner of that bet!

Proof exists-
Like when Buzz Aldrin 'couldn't handle the Truth' and punched Bart Sibrel in the nose after Bart said that the Apollo Moon landings were hoaxes.

Anonymous said...

As everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet. It was soon put to use in a way that would spread its exposure to many more people - PORN

Anonymous said...

??December 28, 2016 at 7:35 AM??

Is the earth flat too?

Lee Clark said...

Hi people. I wrote a lot of things that I would not write today. For example, I was totally wrong about Y2K. And yes, it's clear that dreams are not necessarily from God. Live and learn. I also used to think that basically what HWA said or wrote was Gospel, but clearly he made mistakes and changed positions on certain doctrines. He was a man. That is all too clear after examining the evidence. I do believe that you cannot go wrong following the Bible, though.

I have looked at many of these "anti-HWA" websites, and I will admit that they make some very good and valid points. In fact they helped me to come out of my idolatry of HWA. Just goes to show that I have to keep my faith in God and God alone. I believe in the First Amendment and your right to say what you want. I do admire HWA for what he did accomplish, in the face of much opposition.

I think my dream about HWA was accurate. I would never want to go back to the oppressive government that I found in the WCG. I knew from the start that it was flawed, but I hung in for seven years because I wanted the experience and the education I was getting. In fact, I lived right in the heart of Scientology central here in Florida for a few years, and I saw many similarities between them and the WCG. The WCG was very cult-like.

Anyway, please feel free to fire away at me. I will freely admit where I was wrong. None of us are going to be perfect in this life, and even if we are, then they'll kill us anyway. You know that joke, right?

Lee Clark said...

I do not believe God opened the Internet door solely for the Gospel, and I don't think I said that.

I understand that a lot of people got burned by the WCG. I don't blame you for being angry. I was not one of the ones who was unwise enough to allow himself to be completely hoodwinked and taken advantage of. In fact I am somewhat of a rebel and was often at odds with the brainwashed hired thugs in the ministry. Things don't change much. I recently encountered similoar tactics in the UCG. I think a lot of the anger I see on sites like this are from people who did allow themselves to be exploited and abused.

I recently reviewed many of the WCG exposes that came out in the 70's and 80's. I was appalled to see how many were manipulated and taken advantage of. I absolutely deplore the tactics of copycat organizations like PCG and RCG (Flurry and Pack).

I'm a freedom lover. I think the New Testament paints a picture of a church that is fluid and free, not a nazi military outfit.

Byker Bob said...

We all live and learn, Lee. All of us were caught up in herbolatry at one time or another. Nice of you to drop by to update us on the latest developments in your life. There's still hope for everyone!

BB

Black Ops Mikey said...

In fact, I lived right in the heart of Scientology central here in Florida for a few years, and I saw many similarities between them and the WCG

Thank you, Lee. It's great to have someone who has been through the mill to see the light and PERHAPS, sharing your wisdom may strike a responsive chord with those still trapped in the worship and idolatry of Herbert Armstrong.

To your most excellent point of wisdom, as you probably know, Leah Remini's documentary about Scientology on A&E has debunked and eviscerated Scientology. They don't really have any answers except to attack her without much success. It's too bad that Armstrongists can probably see and sort out that Scientology is a cult, but are too dense to figure out that Armstrongism is a cult just like Scientology with very few variances. L. Ron Hubbard had quite the similar approach to his membership as Herbert Armstrong. Ironically, they both died in Pasadena just a week or so apart.

The members of the sects of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia ought to be able to clearly see that Armstrong created a cult in the Radio Church of God (really??!!! Just the name is a tell). The sects are little more than mind controlling Sabbath keeping, Feast keeping bronze age pagan Druid (don't get on me for that, take it up with the Exit and Support Network, please) Scientologists. The cult of personality and highly structured hierarchy are strikingly similar, as is the outrageous abuse and money grubbing from the members.

So if people won't take testimony from the rest of us, perhaps they will listen to you, Lee.

Respects.

Anonymous said...

Capitalism is a cult. Extremely hierarchical. No voting. No mercy. No truth. You get lied to, exploited, defamed, used up and then spat out like garbage, then Enroned to death and flushed down the toilet with no pension.

The COGs are all INCORPORATED. That's how they get away with it.

Lee Clark said...

Thank you Byker Bob and Black Ops Mikey. I am moved by your comments. You sound like my kinda guys!

Anonymous said...

If Scientology is getting attacked more than Davie and Gerry-boy then Scientology must be doing a better work for God than Davie or Gerry-boy. In fact, given all the lies told in the media about Iran, Islam must be the work of God!

Anonymous said...

America cannot bear the words of Islam, so we have a "muslim ban" (actually, that term is a media lie, it's really a psycho-muslim ban). So muhummad must be THAT PROPHET. Sorry, Davie and Ferry, you have been out-hated. You need to blow more things up to get the status you crave.

Lee Clark said...

Black Ops Mikey, I must say that also Hubbard spent some time in Pasadena in the late 40's (maybe 1947-ish, not sure), and he was studying Satanism, I believe, with a disciple of Aleister Crowley. This is off the top of my head. This is right around the time that AC was getting off the ground. I do not mean to imply that HWA was involved in such things, but it is a striking coincidence.

Hubbard, a science fiction writer, determined that religion was the key to riches, and he studied the religions of the world to arrive at his own particular brand. There is an article about him which was published in Penthouse magazine back in the 70's, it was an interview with Hubbard's son, who worked for his dad.

But touring the Scientology facilities was very similar to touring Pasadena. Immaculate buildings, super-nice people. Remember how HWA apprenticed with Elbert Hubbard? It's in the Autobio. Any relation? I don't know.

Well, I'm just very happy that you are being so kind to me. And I agree with Anonymous, the 503c3 non-profit corporation is just a gag-rule.

Thank you again, I guess I'm really on your side. I always liked home fellowships. At UCG they follow me around like I'm a criminal, like I'm in Communist Russia. It's just appalling. I was like so done with this years ago but I thought I'd stop by to see if things have changed.

Things have not changed.

Anonymous said...

Oh, that's funny, because I thought Satan created the internet for porn. Because no matter what metric you use, that's probably the largest single category of material. It certainly isn't religious preaching in general, of which christian preaching is only a subset, of which protestant preaching is only a subset. Definitely a lot more porn out there than the tiny sliver of protestant christian preaching. These are the kinds of irrational falsehoods religious people love to tell themselves, as though telling a lie made it troo™. Wouldn't be the first time this happened, however, as the biblical canon is composed of hundreds of thousands of lies, one right after the next.

Anonymous said...

With all due respect can you be specific of the lies you claim the bible contains.

Lee Clark said...

Well, you do have the freedom to decide which kind of content you to want access. The Internet is a two-edged sword, is it not? Would you like to shut it down because people have the freedom to post what they want, good or bad? You are you anyway, Anonymous? Would you like to tell us about yourself? Or are you a coward? You may be a government troll, if you ask me.

Lee Clark said...

If porn is what you want to use the Internet for, no one is stopping you. Go for it, dude!

Anonymous said...


Lee Clark on February 19, 2017 at 10:39 PM said...“I absolutely deplore the tactics of copycat organizations like PCG and RCG (Flurry and Pack).”


The PCG and RCG both used HWA's name to try to attract HWA's former followers and their wallets. The PCG and RCG both started off pretending to be faithfully holding on to everything that HWA had taught at the tie of his death in January 1986. The PCG and RCG both criticized other splinter groups for making relatively tiny doctrinal changes. Then, both the PCG and RCG went on to introduce the most MASSIVE DOCTRINAL CHANGES since the WCG's Tkaches totally apostatized in January 1995. The PCG and RCG are not so much WCG copycats as satanic imposter cults that were established to try to destroy former WCG members who had not gone along with the Tkach's apostasy--and to destroy them in the most deceitful and cruel fashion imaginable. The evils that both the PCG and RCG have already done are too numerous to list them all here.

HWA had taught that the church was led by an apostle (meaning “one sent forth” to preach the gospel of the kingdom), and that there were no prophets in the church today. Gerald Flurry was so busy making up names, titles, offices, and positions for himself that he did not seem to know anything about apostles for the first twenty years of his PCG. Gerald Flurry bought the copyrights to some of HWA's writings from the WCG apostates, but then edited and changed the literature, including HWA's last book called Mystery of the Ages. Both Gerald Flurry and David Pack each now claim to be “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19. David Pack even had to delete his own previous booklet that he had written that had proved that “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 was Jesus Christ.

Gerald Flurry quickly did away with the “great commission” to preach the gospel of the kingdom to all nations, which HWA had taught was the “real purpose” of the church, and replaced it with a new commission to break up PCG families and friendships by force, and to try to force sexual immorality on PCG people. Gerald Flurry called his satanic perversion, “warning the Laodiceans.”

All the teachings in the WCG had come through HWA, so HWA finally taught that he was the one who had “restored all things.” This understanding was supposedly a great wall of defence against doctrinal changes. However, David Pack eventually posthumously promoted HWA out of the way to the office of Moses so that David Pack could promote himself to the office of Elijah. This gave David Pack the power to change, delete, and make up “all things.” David Pack even had to delete another one of his booklets that he had written that had proved that HWA was the modern Elijah. David Pack “restored” the “common” theft teaching that everyone had to send him everything they had (savings, retirement plans, houses, possessions, etc.)--“or no salvation if you don't.”

Be careful never to confuse the many heresies that Satan-sent, Satan-directed, FALSE prophets like Gerald R. Flurry and David C. Pack now teach with what Herbert W. Armstrong had actually taught.

Anonymous said...

3.30 PM.
I don't have intimate knowledge of the goings on inside the PCG, but the idea of 'warning the Laodiceans' for a short period, doesn't sound unreasonable. Some other splinters should have had a similar program.
Whether they used this as a cloak for some evils, I don't know, though the history of these churches makes this likely.
I don't believe their policy of treating family members who stop attending services like lepers comes from God. God does not use 'one size fits all' solutions to problems. He deals with Christians and their problems individually.

Anonymous said...

Lee Clark
Thank you for your comments. When I attended services in the 1980s, the minister followed me like a dog. I felt I was under a microscope. It's also a calculated form of abuse. Hardly surprising that these churches keep splintering. Everyone wants to be the abuser, but no one wants to be the abused.

I disagree about your complaint of anonymity. It's a safety issue. We do live in a dangerous world. It's the reason why you won't find me on Facebook, since I would probably be harassed and threatened.

Lee Clark said...

As long as we're letting it all hang out, I can tell you that the reason I melted down in about 2001 or so, as shown in the comments above, was because I became a Targeted Individual. If you do a search on that you can find out what that is all about.

I should know better than to try to fellowship with any of the corporate churches. They are essentially government organs at this point. I mean I tried again with UCG but they do not want anyone discussing anything controversial at all. They finally hounded me out of there. So here I am on my own again.

Lee Clark said...

This process is kind of cathartic for me.

I know you guys like to poke fun at people who try to imitate HWA's writing style: the generous use of caps, italics, exclamation points and other crazy punctuation. But the fact is that I developed a similar style back in elementary school, before I ever read HWA. Later, I was influenced by Tom Wolfe, who took it way over the top.

Lee Clark said...

I took out all the old articles on my site, and the only one left is my Seven Churches article. I really think I am on to something here. I just realized that you guys are about keeping us honest, and that's a good thing. Maybe this is what the Internet's good for. At its core I just want to share my thoughts with God's people. I am so very human, just like you.

I used to dreams of wealth, fame, and grandeur, but it's not about that. That is temporal and fleeting. The 80's were so about that and that's when I came into the Church. And it's only gotten worse.

But anyway, my seven churches article is at leeclark.online. Hey, tear it up. It's for you and if I'm wrong, I trust you will hold me accountable.

Black Ops Mikey said...

Or sued.

Some of the more strident obstreperous cultmeisters are quite litigious.

And there are some Internet providers scared that said cultmeisters may stand on their lawn and shoot bullets at them.

Heaven knows some of them shot at their own troops in the Vietnam War... deliberately (and yes, the psychiatrist did declare them a 'psychopath'... it's a wonder that tribunals without any military experience or expertise in psychiatry could decide that some other explanation was possible, never having heard of "Occam's Razor", even though the original declaration still stands online in the Australian Court Database).

Anonymous said...


Lee Clark on February 21, 2017 at 2:06 AM said...“I took out all the old articles on my site, and the only one left is my Seven Churches article. I really think I am on to something here.”


You should take out that Seven Churches article too. Sadly, whatever you are on, it does not appear to be good.

Lee Clark said...

"strident obstreperous cultmeisters"

"Occam's Razor"

I had to look those up. Coincidentally, I did learn a new word the other day: "fragging." As you all know, that's the act of shooting one of your own men. Became a popular pastime in Vietnam, where you had inexperienced officers issuing ludicrous, suicidal orders.

Wait ... I'm seeing a parallel here in the Nazi church organizations!

Lee Clark said...

I don't think people should be able to post comments as "Anonymous." You don't know which "Anonymous" you're talking to. Just cowards, anyway.

RSK said...

Maybe they think they are "Targeted Individuals" too, you know.

Anonymous said...

Lee Clark
You should respect peoples right to anonymity rather than attacking it. Hardly surprising since church culture is that only ministers have rights (which need to be religiously observed), while members have non.
The 'We-have-all-rights-while-you-have non' Churches of god.

nck said...

I agree with Lee that a completely anonymous person is a coward.

At least one should have a consistent and recognizable "call sign".
Unless of course you are sharing information dealing with national security.

To not reveal ones complete identiy is of course a right. And I would agree that rights come with responsibilities. If one decides to not disclose that identity one should try and be as gentlemanly or ladylike as possible in communications. Or at least limit oneself to "an eye for an eye" when digitally wronged.

nck

Chuckles, Charlie Speck Annonymous said...

Lee Clark..What is the difference whether or not someone posts something as anonymous, all they are doing is making a point or giving an opinion and you wouldn't know them even if they put their name on it anyway in most cases.I dont know anyone anonymous nor do I know them if they put their name as Lee Clark or John Smith, all the same to me. Who cares what their name is, I just want to hear what they have to say in case they have a valid point to make, or maybe help me or someone be aware of something I shouldn't get involved in, whether they sign anonymous or Lee Clark means zip. Sometimes I am anonymous, sometimes Chuckles and sometimes Charlie Speck which is my real name, it doesn't matter does it, you wouldn't know me anyway, and even if you did, so what? Those who sign anonymous just might have good reason, that's up to them.

Anonymous said...

NCK is the same as using anonymous, no one knows who either is, so I guess both are cowards for hiding behind a name or initials whereas they can't be recognized.

Anonymous said...

"And 'IF' Jesus Himself has unlocked this door, then NO MAN CAN SHUT IT!! It will only be shut when Jesus Himself decides to shut it, and then no man will be able to open it!!"

Okay, well what if it was the other way around. Maybe it was mankind that was able to pick Jesus's lock. And then mankind opened the door so wide so that everybody can come in.

DBP

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob said:"There are those who hold to the notion that Johann Gutenberg's primary achievement was making the Bible more or less ubiquitous. The fact is, the printing press made it possible to publish a wide variety of data and opinions on the Bible,..."

Good point! Why would Gauwd allow all these lies that contradict Armstrong's gospel? Because if Gauwd built it and then locked it, then don't you think HE would keep out all the lies and smut?

DBP

Anonymous said...

Responding to February 20, 2017 at 12:48 PM

Jack Parson was the one that was a disciple of Aleister Crowley. Crowley had even warned Jack that he shouldn't trust him.

Anonymous said...

"..completely anonymous person is a coward.."

Maybe some would much rather be heard than to be identified and labeled?

Anonymous said...

Nck
So according to you, people have a right to hide their identity partially, but not completely. The reason is that it makes it inconvenient for you, Lee and similar. Again this is the church/bully position. That is, you have 'rights' unless I really want what you have, or it really, really inconveniences me.
This is called acting by permission rather than right, with some intrusive big daddy government/minister dictating when ones rights are to be respected, or not respected. Rights by definition are inalienable. If they are not, they are not rights at all.
From a Christian perspective, we are discussing don't steal and its associated don't covet. You either believe that Gods laws are perfect or that they are not. You obviously believe they are not.

As a Christian, you obey Gods laws (not sort of) and play by the rules.
By contrast, the whim worshippers come here belly aching of the horrors of having to keep their hands off others peoples stuff (a one way, not a two way street). Poor things.

Anonymous said...

"God created the Internet for the Gospel"

He also also used the internet to build His 3rd Temple.

I'm serious!

DBP

Byker Bob said...

Guy laying in pool of blood in back alley: "Why did you do this to me?"

Man standing above him with bruised knuckles, "Oh, you accused me of being a coward for posting as "anonymous" on a blog. You just can't tell just who might be setting at a keyboard. You should be more careful and aware!"

I think if blogs were done on Skype, there are a lot of stupid things that would never be said.

BB

Anonymous said...


Lee Clark on February 21, 2017 at 2:37 PM said...“I don't think people should be able to post comments as 'Anonymous.' You don't know which 'Anonymous' you're talking to. Just cowards, anyway.”


Lee Clark is not the only person who claimed to be a big follower of HWA, but who then went on to make up all sorts of heretical nonsense and imagine that he was someone great and that people should listen to his worthless ramblings. Gerald Flurry and David Pack did the same things. Flurry and Pack would both agree with Clark that people should not be allowed to make any anonymous comments about anything that is happening.

Since Flurry, Pack, and Clark are all opposed to anonymous comments, it really is SAFE to assume that anonymous is the way to go. It is NOT SAFE to attract the attention of DANGEROUS false prophets like these psychos.

Anonymous said...

People who post as anonymous are not cowards. This insult is always thrown around by Church leaders, and all their cronies. It only rattles powerful people or people who aspire for power. Does anyone really think it is fair that powerless, downtrodden, bewildered brethren should have no anominty and have to pur their name. It could open a can of worms were wrong names are quoted for spite. I openly welcome the way anyone can be anonymous. As far as I'm concerned it is a direct result of years of abuse in WCG and the splinter groups. Many in and out of cog land appreciate this website offering anominty because if the woeful abuses.

nck said...

Please people. Take reading class at your local kindergarten. I said there is no need to disclose who you are. I respect that. But to post anonimously among many other unanimous reduces your contributions to absolute meanongless nothingness. Use a monniker and at least be recognizably consistent. Or continue existing as something or rather nothing, worth skipping in an ocean of information. Btw using a monniker like I do also makes it easier skipping my postings if they have not proven to ones liking. It s a win win in communication. Nck

Anonymous said...

It's funny to me. The people who complain the most about anonanimity, tend to be the ones who will post with multiple accounts, they will respond to their own posts favorably, and try to build their own sock-puppet army. As I(DBP) said before, some people would rather be heard and engaged in a back and forth conversation, rather than to be understood only by a label or a generalization that someone might use to ignore and avoid discussions. Also, from my POV, the request to be less anonymous almost always revolves around debates and arguements and never anything positive that may have been contributed.

drive-by-philosopher

Anonymous said...

In reply to nck 1:24 comment. No posting anonymous does not reduce the contributions. You can use the time posted to refer to. Why should commenters be recognisably consistent. The are high ups who prowl this site seeking any who expose them. You'd be surprised what really goes on.

Byker Bob said...

This anonymous poster discussion comes up about as frequently as the racism topic. In both cases, we can improve the situations, but unfortunately "it is what it is" at some point, and there are certain things that we'll need to just work around until there can be a perfect solution.

The folks in the trenches of the ACOGs are kind of like people who suspect their analogue phone calls are being traced. You can only surface for so long until you run the risk of the trace being completed. And, like the KKK, the bastard ministers frequently jump to conclusions and practice zero tolerance.

BB

nck said...

Well, ok. Do what works for you. In the end it s a good thing if you are removed from organisations that monitor you that way. Be it a church a government or an employer. But I recognize there may be situations to succumb freedoms. Fear is a powerful one. But protecting ones fammily is also often cited. Freedom fighters are usually single young folk. Nck