The Remarkable Story of The Mysterious ThD and Subtle Deceptions of Bob Thiel

The late Gavin Rumney has several expose's of Bob Thiel's ever-changing story on his site.  This by far is the best rundown on the subtle deceptions Thiel uses to impress the world and his African members.

From: Ambassador Watch

The story of Bob's acquisition of a Doctor of Theology degree was a major source of curiosity on AW back in 2009. Bob has since gone on to assert further remarkable personal claims. Perhaps we can gauge how seriously we can take these by Bob's ThD track record. Here's how it unfolded.

25 September: Bob's been busy

Not only in writing books but now articles for examiner.com. Here's the bio:

Dr. Bob Thiel has studied theology and prophecy for decades, and possesses a Ph.D. (UIU) and a Th.D. (TCU). He has also traveled extensively, and has visited sites of religious interest in Rome, Greece, Central Europe, Asia Minor, Cappadocia, Constantinople (Istanbul), Africa, Asia, North America, and Latin America.

Bob has a ThD from Texas Christian University? When did that happen? Bob doesn't mention it in his COGwriter bio.

26 September: Bob's ThD

What do we make of the claim that Bob Thiel holds a ThD from TCU? ... Inquiries have been made by concerned AW readers. Leonardo is one:

...in the endeavor to "prove all things" I called the Registrar's Office (817-257-7825) of Texas Christian University located in Ft. Worth, Texas – and talked to one Kristi Harrison at the Registrar’s Office. She informed me of the following facts: First of all, Texas Christian University does NOT have a doctorate of theology (ThD) program. They do have a Masters of Theological Studies program, a Master of Divinity program, and a Master of Theology program – but not a ThD program. And second, the name of Bob (or Robert) Thiel does NOT show up on ANY student listing the university has. They have a computerized file dating from 1984 forward – and Thiel is NOT on this one. And they have a microfiche file for students who attended before 1984 – and Thiel doesn’t show up on this one either.  

I've always found Bob a scrupulously honest person, so it will be intriguing to follow this as it develops.

26 September (2): Bob's ThD... revised edition
Just a few hours ago Bob had this to say on his website:

...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools. A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.

Now there's a new, edited version:

...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools in and out of the USA like T of CU, where a Th.D. in Early Christianity was earned). A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.

Uh... T of CU? Anyone have any idea what this means? TCU seems to know nothing about Bob (see previous posts.) And, accepting what Bob now says on face value, fancy him forgetting to mention his excellent doctorate in theology till now...

11 October: Doctor of Thielology

The Last Great Day has been and gone, and thousands of Feast-goers are toddling their weary way home. The "best Feast ever"? Well, maybe.

I'm looking forward to Bob Thiel at last having time to share the details on his acquisition of the Th.D which suddenly appeared on his resumé, so to speak, just days before the Feast. This may seem a bit obsessive, but I think it's important that we all can feel Bob's honesty is not in question here. We may disagree with Bob, but nobody has had reason to question his sincerity and integrity before.

As late as March last year Bob didn't seem to know about his own Th.D. Here's what he wrote in answer to a critic on another blog (you can read the whole rebuttal here):

I do have a Ph.D. and it is from the Union Institute & University. And Union is regionally accredited (the highest accepted accrediting standard in the United States for universities and colleges). I also have a Master of Science degree from the University of Southern California (which, of course, is also regionally accredited).

I believe Bob unreservedly, and these qualifications are not in question. But note, no mention of a Th.D from TCU (or anywhere else.) Has Bob acquired his prestigious doctorate in theology since then? If so, how? If Bob wants to continue to be regarded as credible, he needs to come clean on this, and sooner rather than later.

23 October: A Case of Beams and Splinters

Over at COGwriter, Bob Thiel is busy nuking some guy called James Malm. It's completely justified, as Malm has been slagging off Thiel. Never a dull moment in the sandpit.

What this clearly demonstrates is that Bob is quite capable of standing up for himself, and assuming a posture of peevish outrage. The current entry is entitled "James Malm Continues to Mislead."

Instead of repenting for being a false accuser of me, James Malm remains an accuser (cf. Revelation 12:10) as he continues to attempt to mislead people about me and my writings... The Apostle Paul faced false accusers as well who could not prove their false accusations (Acts 24:13).

Well, bully for Bob. But isn't it interesting that Bob has still failed to respond to questions about the legitimacy of a claimed Th.D from TCU. These claims are in his bio at Examiner.com, and on his own website. Hardly a good look to accuse someone else of misleading while being unable to provide the most rudimentary documentation for one's own claims. A case of beams and splinters? 

The thing is, Bob gets a lot of traffic on his site, but where does it come from? Have a look at this breakdown from Alexa.com.

Sweet mystery of life, nearly 15% of Bob's click-through traffic comes from - gasp! - AW! No other source, search engines Google and Yahoo excluded, sends more visitors through for a dose of Bob's "Th.D" fueled Biblical expertise... Most of those would go directly to the COGwriter "news" page, while most of the search engine hits would go to one of the countless ratbag pages of opinion Bob has up on things like "Catholic prophecies," Mayan calendars, and whether Barack Obama is the Antichrist. If that's the case, most of Bob's upstream traffic would come from curious and confused nutcases outside the COG fold, which means the news blog - the part of Bob's site most of us are familiar with - has been hugely overrated in its influence.

Yes brethren, I'm very tempted to rain on Bob's parade by withdrawing all links to his site... after all he doesn't link here. But that would be boorish and small-minded, so I guess he can continue to hang out in the apologists' section of the side bar.

But there'll be no more direct links from blog entries until Bob explains that alleged Th.D.

Question: Exactly which institution issued the Th.D? Full name required, as the obvious candidate for "TCU" is Texas Christian University, and they don't seem to know anything about it.

24 October: In Search of... Bob's ThD

The mystery of Bob Thiel's Th.D may be solved, and it's a pretty strange tale.

Bob may have acquired a mail order degree from Trinity School of Apologetics & Theology in Kochi.

Kochi?

TRINITY??

Following up on an anonymous tip in the previous comments section, a web search revealed that Trinity is a fundamentalist institution in India which has a Calvinist orientation, and offers "Free Apologetics/Theology Graduate Distance Programs." It's listed in places like Conservapedia and Creationwiki, and is sited next to Cochin University, but from what I can tell is definitely not part of that institution (although to read the Trinity website you might assume it was!) T of CU would then mean Trinity of Cochin University, which seems to be a clear misrepresentation.

Here's what Walston's Guide to Christian Distance Learning has to say about this institution (see graphic).

Not exactly positive.

And lo and behold, there is a Bob Thiel listed under "graduation news" on the Trinity site.

Now let's recap.

(1) If this is the source of Bob's Th.D, one can only wonder at his choice of an institution which wears its trinitarianism on its sleeve.

(2) To all intents and purposes, the accreditation that this institution claims is highly dubious.

(3) Bob has misrepresented it by calling it TCU. The correct acronym is TGSAT. The impression that he has graduated from Texas Christian is highly misleading. The impression that TGSAT is part of Cochin University is also misleading.

It appears that Bob's Th.D - if this is its source - isn't worth the paper it's printed on. No wonder Bob has been less than forthcoming about its provenance: it's a huge embarrassment.

However, on the positive side, Bob was being at least partially truthful. He does have a piece of paper with a recently minted Th.D., the quality of which is fully commensurate with the quality of his scholarship.

16 November: The disappearing ThD

Bob Thiel seems to have expunged mention of any Th.D from his bio page. No explanation given, but I guess it amounts to a concession to his critics. Here then are the three versions of his qualifications that Bob has promoted this year.

Version 1: ...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools. A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.

Version 2: ...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools in and out of the USA like T of CU, where a Th.D. in Early Christianity was earned). A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.

Version 3: ...I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary and other schools in and out of the USA). A doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.) degree was earned from the Union Institute and University where I studied various biological sciences and research methodologies. I also have other degrees/training, and have studied theology, both formally and informally.

Now you see it, now you don't. It remains to be seen whether Bob has done irreparable damage to his credibility by fudging on this issue. 

2016 Postscript. Bob's alma mater admits that it is indeed not accredited, no big surprise, so it seems his PhD is indeed only a pretty piece of paper, a vanity qualification. Vanity is one of the seven deadly sins, isn't it?

As late as September last year Bob could write: "And, yes, I have a Ph.D. and Th.D. among other degrees. The Th.D. is in Christian Apologetics, with a speciality of Early Church History." [source] On his website he now states: "I have studied graduate level Early Church History from Fuller Theological Seminary [no details] and other schools in and out of the USA [no details], and after a lot of writing, was granted a foreign Th.D. in early Christianity [no details]." Apparently that's as much a concession as we're likely to get.

Would you buy a used car from this man?

Why I Failed Dave Pack's Potential RCG Minister Interview

Awhile back, when Dave was scouring the planet for ministers he could manipulate, control and program to his liking, he provided this form that potential ministerial hires had to fill out for him.
I took the test and the results are in...

(1) Retirement—Mr. Armstrong taught that retirement is not an option for a true minister.

• Did you retire? If so, when, and why did you think yourself an exception?
• I can never retire in any normal way known to man because of being involved with WCG from my youth. 

(2) Non-Career—Mr. Armstrong taught that “going non-career” is not an option for a true minister.

• Did you do this? If so, why did you think yourself an exception?
•  I should have stayed fired in '74 during the "East Coast Rebellion".  I am sorry I ever went career.  This was yet another area of belief where HWA was mistaken and overly opinionated mistaking the opinion for Biblical truth and knowing the mind of God. Six months of "intensive study" in the religion section of the Portland Public Library is not sufficient anymore than your AC education in and "intensive study 50 years ago" into Evolution did by outlining the Genesis Flood book and reading church literature on the topic.  BTW, church literature on the topic was badly mistaken and ill informed as well, even in the times they were written. 

(3) Established Doctrine and Tradition

• In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—bespecific.)
• All of it..... HWA's first "got it wrong" was that he was a well trained, historically sound, grounded in real Church history and a Biblically literate human being. After "all of it" it was mostly downhill from there. 
• 
  
  

(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)

• During the liberal years of the 1970s?   I gave sermons that were practical, encouraging and historically interesting and helpful in real life. I avoided the Gerald Waterhouse Church of God like the plague. Majoring in the minors was not a habit of mine with regards to the myriad of "what about's" the zealous could come up with. "You decide what is best for you" seemed like a good response.  I doubt you'd have liked my views and administration of practices revolving around divine healing, divorce and remarriage,  sabbath keeping, job issues, immunizations , Petra, A theory for the Birds/A whale of Tale and Gerald Waterhouse.
• In the WCG in the late 1980s and early 90s?  (I saw some light at the end of tunnel of the 70's and early 80's, but see above)
• In your splinter or splinters? I never splintered. One go at Presbyterian and then WCGwas enough for me.

(5) On each doctrine where you came to agree with God’s enemies—either Joe Tkach, those who assisted his destruction or your splinter leader—why did you agree?

I didn't agree  but it took some time to cycle out of the insanity and transitions are messy. 

(6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?

• Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?  
• They shouldn't be as I would teach them things that would curl their theological socks.
• Are you prepared to re-win brethren’s trust, including brethren now here whom you will likely also pastor? What about re-winning the trust of Headquarters?
• NO.  A rat's ass I do not care to rewin yours or anyone else's trust at Deadquarters. 

(7) Did you actively pursue where God’s Truth, Church, Work, College and Government were found?

• If not, why not? Be specific.
• At one time but it was hard to keep up with all the personalities and baloney. 
• If so, how hard? Be specific.
• Sincerely hard for a time.   From June 25th, 1964 at 7PM to April 4th, 1990s-ish hard to say

(8) Have you read or viewed any of our Splinter Explanation Packet material?

      NO.  I can't stand your explanations and self centered and absorbed perspectives

• What items?  NONE Ÿ Did you at any time hear my “30 Reasons” sermons of 1993 and 1994? (Parts 1, 2 or 3?) NOPE. I didn't want to 

(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?

      OH GOSH NO. Are you on drugs???  "All on body weeeee" is a fallacy 

(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?

    Whacked out, arrogant, mistaken and mostly made up to serve the best interests of men like         yourself

(11) Have you returned to believing that Mr. Armstrong was the final Zerubbabel?

Can't return to what I never believed, no.  

(12) Have you returned to believing that truth only enters the Church through apostles as Mr. Armstrong said so often?

See 11

(13) Do you believe I Corinthians 12:18 applies to you with no qualifications added?

(1 Corinthians 12:18 ¹⁸But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.) NO, I think that's made up, again by those who crave preeminence, to justify their dominance and leadership goals.  I also recall you not all that happy that God placed you in the body where he wanted you to be back in the 70's when HWA/WCG  laid you off from the ministry. 

(14) Do you believe there can be exceptions to I Corinthians 1:10 and 13—regarding members or ministers in the Church?

Absolutely not!  All speaking the same thing so that there be no division is not the same as speaking the right thing 

(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s true ministry?

No, not by you.  I have retrained myself to my satisfaction

(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:

• Where Headquarters is “wrong”?  YES!
• What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”? YES!
• What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”?  OH MAN YES!
• Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.? SURE
• Where you disagree doctrinally? Why not?

(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):

• Weak                     Strong
• Cowardly              Brave!
• Slothful                 I'm Dutch . It is not allowed.
• Covetous              Nope
• Confused             Not like I was
• Compromising    I like to think of myself as flexible
• Foolish                 At times
• Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?)  I was Jr. Class President
• Heretical              When necessary
• Easily deceived    Evidently...
• Betrayed your calling     I like to think it betrayed me
•  (And don't tell me how to answer. I like words better than numbers. )

(21) Why did you lose the ability to “discern good from evil” (Heb. 5:13-14)?—and for so long?

I didn't. I gained the ability to discern good from evil  the longer I was in the WCG ministry because there was so many opportunities to practice. Now I see you have come on the scene and provide even more opportunities.

(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?

Pastor since I actually pastored but was only graced with "Preaching Elder " status forever.

Ÿ Evangelist Ÿ Pastor Ÿ Preaching Elder Ÿ Local Elder Ÿ Local Church Elder Ÿ “Elder” Ÿ Ministerial Assistant

(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely the horrific mess you helped cause in so many lives?

NO, I got out of my mess. They can get out of their own.

(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one?

In hind sight , I've never seen or met one.

• If you say yes, why did you follow Joe Tkach until he destroyed everything?
• I went by the blessing of "May God Bless and Keep the Tkaches, far away from us" too long and I am sorry for this . But I did the same with HWA .  I thought I was supposed to be a minister, Grandpa Armstrong would die as do we all and as in any normal orginization, it would adjust, mature and stop the over zealousness and intrusive BS that comes with the first generation of believers. 

(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)

Just fine thanks.  98.6  Again, don't tell me how to answer. 

(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)

Trust no man
When your head tells you yes and your stomach tells you no, the stomach tells the truth
Religion is a drug
Most people can't think critically about Biblical origins and intent.
I wish I had studied paleontology
Prophecy is a lie
I am a scoffer in Biblical terms but an observer of reality in real life.  
I gave you 7. Don't tell me how to anwer

(27) How many times did you fast for 24 hours (or more) before answering these questions?

ZERO

(28) How many times have you prayed over Psalm 51 on your knees?

ZERO

(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?

I don't have to convince you or anyone else of anything. I am happy with having drawn my own conclusions about Church and the Bible and no longer run on fear, guilt and shame based theology.  

(30) What have been your pastoral actions during the troubles of recent weeks and months?

Vomiting  and scoffing reading your announcements. 

(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?

Absolutely, just not with you or any of the splinters. I'll take care of this one myself. 

(32) What personal responsibility do you feel for the deplorable condition into which God’s people have sunk?

Guilt free but sorry I let myself get into denial over my obvious wrong decision as a younger man to get involved with WCG and all the uneducated and petty minister types. 

(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?

Never was spirit lead so can't prove I still am.

(34) What date did you leave the WCG, and why did you remain beyond May 1995, if this is the case?

1998.  I was lied to repeatedly when I asked questions of Joe Tkach from '95-98.  In hind sight I would have preferred to leave in '74 when I was first fired in Chicago in the great rebellion of the day  but they forgave me. I was young.

(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?

Shook my head, slapped my forehead,  laughed to tears and pretty much knew that your "soon" was the same kind of "soon" we find in the NT as to the coming of Jesus. 

You're not going to hire me are you...?   

Race and Ambassador College

I don't know if you have seen this or not.  This was by Gregory Doudna and was posted on the AC Alumni site.  Doudna was the author of Showdown at Big Sandy: Youthful Creativity Confronts Bureaucratic Inertia at an Unconventional Bible College in East Texas.  

I came to Ambassador soon after African-Americans were admitted to the student body.  The racist comments were still being thrown around by many administrators and ministers as to why the college had to admit those people.

Anon

We came from a white-entitlement church ideology yet saw ourselves as loving and benign not hateful to all races. All here from AC Pasadena before 1970 were part of a college which by explicit policy excluded unmarried African-American applicants, including from tithe-paying church member families, from admission. That practice ended in 1970 when an IRS threat of loss of charitable-organization tax exempt status forced an end to the whites-preferential admissions policies at the two AC campuses in the US. Members were not told this true reason for the change. As an entering student at Big Sandy in 1972, I did not know that that was the reason Big Sandy had begun admitting for the first time unmarried black students only one year earlier in 1971. HWA never explained to the members and coworkers: “I, as chancellor of the three Ambassador Colleges, foretaste of the World Tomorrow, with the advice of counsel at headquarters, hereby decree that it is now time to admit some of our unmarried black brethren applicants to the two campuses of God’s colleges in the United States, not applicable to the campus in England, in repudiation of my longstanding teaching of God’s strictures against racial intermixing, because a higher power, namely the IRS/federal government, has threatened our income and for the good of the Work I am obeying man instead of God.”

The wcg ideology was white identity politics with an entitlement mentality: that white Europeans were Israelites and as such, entitled to the best land and natural resources in North America and worldwide. We believed in a church which broadcast booklets about a World Tomorrow which spoke of the glories of Assyrian-scale forced deportations in the millennium in which African Americans, who have been in America for generations and this is their home, would be forcibly sent to Africa en masse, leaving America all white. HWA, who authored this literature whose circulation we supported, was aware that some people might object to being forcibly removed from the only home they have ever known, but that was no impediment as he explained it; God assisted by Noah and HWA and members of the true church would force those people to go and "no defiance will be tolerated". In this ideology these soon-coming Wonderful World Tomorrow Assyrian-scale ethnic cleansings and mass deportations would be good not bad because they were in the forcibly deported peoples’ best interests, even if the first reaction of some of the ethnically cleansed in this administration in the millennium might be to cry tears not understanding immediately. (Footnote here: that is exactly what the ancient Assyrians told their conquered peoples anciently.)

Yet few of us thought of ourselves as racist. HWA and all of us at the time--probably without exception here-- professed love for all races. There was no hate speech from HWA or in church literature. The racism was institutional, not in most cases on a personal level. It was not hate-speech kind of racism. 

GTA: The Games People Play

In 1976, Garner Ted Armstrong toured all of the United States Feast of Tabernacle sites, giving a sermon during the day, and then performing that evening with none other than famous country-western star Buck Owens. 

In 1977, Owens, who was the host of the long-running TV show, "Hee Haw" had GTA on as a guest star, where GTA performed "Put your Hand in the Hand" in front of a national television audience. 

I just recently found this track that GTA performed with Buck Owens, and thought the crowd here at Banned would find it fascinating, especially in light of all of the events that transpired post-1977. 

The song is a cover of the well-known hit "The Games People Play"  

Regards, 

Tonto Sixkiller 

Facebook-Pharisees and Cyber-Sanhedrin