I took the test and the results are in...
(1) Retirement—Mr. Armstrong taught that retirement is not an option for a true minister.
- Did you retire? If so, when, and why did you think yourself an exception?
- I can never retire in any normal way known to man because of being involved with WCG from my youth.
(2) Non-Career—Mr. Armstrong taught that “going non-career” is not an option for a true minister.
- Did you do this? If so, why did you think yourself an exception?
- I should have stayed fired in '74 during the "East Coast Rebellion". I am sorry I ever went career. This was yet another area of belief where HWA was mistaken and overly opinionated mistaking the opinion for Biblical truth and knowing the mind of God. Six months of "intensive study" in the religion section of the Portland Public Library is not sufficient anymore than your AC education in and "intensive study 50 years ago" into Evolution did by outlining the Genesis Flood book and reading church literature on the topic. BTW, church literature on the topic was badly mistaken and ill informed as well, even in the times they were written.
(3) Established Doctrine and Tradition
- In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—bespecific.)
- All of it..... HWA's first "got it wrong" was that he was a well trained, historically sound, grounded in real Church history and a Biblically literate human being. After "all of it" it was mostly downhill from there.
(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)
- During the liberal years of the 1970s? I gave sermons that were practical, encouraging and historically interesting and helpful in real life. I avoided the Gerald Waterhouse Church of God like the plague. Majoring in the minors was not a habit of mine with regards to the myriad of "what about's" the zealous could come up with. "You decide what is best for you" seemed like a good response. I doubt you'd have liked my views and administration of practices revolving around divine healing, divorce and remarriage, sabbath keeping, job issues, immunizations , Petra, A theory for the Birds/A whale of Tale and Gerald Waterhouse.
- In the WCG in the late 1980s and early 90s? (I saw some light at the end of tunnel of the 70's and early 80's, but see above)
- In your splinter or splinters? I never splintered. One go at Presbyterian and then WCGwas enough for me.
(5) On each doctrine where you came to agree with God’s enemies—either Joe Tkach, those who assisted his destruction or your splinter leader—why did you agree?
I didn't agree but it took some time to cycle out of the insanity and transitions are messy.
(6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?
- Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?
- They shouldn't be as I would teach them things that would curl their theological socks.
- Are you prepared to re-win brethren’s trust, including brethren now here whom you will likely also pastor? What about re-winning the trust of Headquarters?
- NO. A rat's ass I do not care to rewin yours or anyone else's trust at Deadquarters.
(7) Did you actively pursue where God’s Truth, Church, Work, College and Government were found?
- If not, why not? Be specific.
- At one time but it was hard to keep up with all the personalities and baloney.
- If so, how hard? Be specific.
- Sincerely hard for a time. From June 25th, 1964 at 7PM to April 4th, 1990s-ish hard to say
(8) Have you read or viewed any of our Splinter Explanation Packet material?
NO. I can't stand your explanations and self centered and absorbed perspectives
- What items? NONE Ÿ Did you at any time hear my “30 Reasons” sermons of 1993 and 1994? (Parts 1, 2 or 3?) NOPE. I didn't want to
(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?
OH GOSH NO. Are you on drugs??? "All on body weeeee" is a fallacy
(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?
Whacked out, arrogant, mistaken and mostly made up to serve the best interests of men like yourself
(11) Have you returned to believing that Mr. Armstrong was the final Zerubbabel?
Can't return to what I never believed, no.
(12) Have you returned to believing that truth only enters the Church through apostles as Mr. Armstrong said so often?
See 11
(13) Do you believe I Corinthians 12:18 applies to you with no qualifications added?
(1 Corinthians 12:18 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.) NO, I think that's made up, again by those who crave preeminence, to justify their dominance and leadership goals. I also recall you not all that happy that God placed you in the body where he wanted you to be back in the 70's when HWA/WCG laid you off from the ministry.
(1 Corinthians 12:18 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.) NO, I think that's made up, again by those who crave preeminence, to justify their dominance and leadership goals. I also recall you not all that happy that God placed you in the body where he wanted you to be back in the 70's when HWA/WCG laid you off from the ministry.
(14) Do you believe there can be exceptions to I Corinthians 1:10 and 13—regarding members or ministers in the Church?
Absolutely not! All speaking the same thing so that there be no division is not the same as speaking the right thing
Absolutely not! All speaking the same thing so that there be no division is not the same as speaking the right thing
(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s true ministry?
No, not by you. I have retrained myself to my satisfaction
No, not by you. I have retrained myself to my satisfaction
(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:
- Where Headquarters is “wrong”? YES!
- What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”? YES!
- What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”? OH MAN YES!
- Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.? SURE
- Where you disagree doctrinally? Why not?
(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):
- Weak Strong
- Cowardly Brave!
- Slothful I'm Dutch . It is not allowed.
- Covetous Nope
- Confused Not like I was
- Compromising I like to think of myself as flexible
- Foolish At times
- Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?) I was Jr. Class President
- Heretical When necessary
- Easily deceived Evidently...
- Betrayed your calling I like to think it betrayed me
- (And don't tell me how to answer. I like words better than numbers. )
(21) Why did you lose the ability to “discern good from evil” (Heb. 5:13-14)?—and for so long?
I didn't. I gained the ability to discern good from evil the longer I was in the WCG ministry because there was so many opportunities to practice. Now I see you have come on the scene and provide even more opportunities.
I didn't. I gained the ability to discern good from evil the longer I was in the WCG ministry because there was so many opportunities to practice. Now I see you have come on the scene and provide even more opportunities.
(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?
Pastor since I actually pastored but was only graced with "Preaching Elder " status forever.
Pastor since I actually pastored but was only graced with "Preaching Elder " status forever.
Ÿ Evangelist Ÿ Pastor Ÿ Preaching Elder Ÿ Local Elder Ÿ Local Church Elder Ÿ “Elder” Ÿ Ministerial Assistant
(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely the horrific mess you helped cause in so many lives?
NO, I got out of my mess. They can get out of their own.
NO, I got out of my mess. They can get out of their own.
(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one?
In hind sight , I've never seen or met one.
In hind sight , I've never seen or met one.
- If you say yes, why did you follow Joe Tkach until he destroyed everything?
- I went by the blessing of "May God Bless and Keep the Tkaches, far away from us" too long and I am sorry for this . But I did the same with HWA . I thought I was supposed to be a minister, Grandpa Armstrong would die as do we all and as in any normal orginization, it would adjust, mature and stop the over zealousness and intrusive BS that comes with the first generation of believers.
(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)
Just fine thanks. 98.6 Again, don't tell me how to answer.
Just fine thanks. 98.6 Again, don't tell me how to answer.
(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)
Trust no man
When your head tells you yes and your stomach tells you no, the stomach tells the truth
Religion is a drug
Most people can't think critically about Biblical origins and intent.
I wish I had studied paleontology
Prophecy is a lie
I am a scoffer in Biblical terms but an observer of reality in real life.
I gave you 7. Don't tell me how to anwer
Trust no man
When your head tells you yes and your stomach tells you no, the stomach tells the truth
Religion is a drug
Most people can't think critically about Biblical origins and intent.
I wish I had studied paleontology
Prophecy is a lie
I am a scoffer in Biblical terms but an observer of reality in real life.
I gave you 7. Don't tell me how to anwer
(27) How many times did you fast for 24 hours (or more) before answering these questions?
ZERO
ZERO
(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?
I don't have to convince you or anyone else of anything. I am happy with having drawn my own conclusions about Church and the Bible and no longer run on fear, guilt and shame based theology.
I don't have to convince you or anyone else of anything. I am happy with having drawn my own conclusions about Church and the Bible and no longer run on fear, guilt and shame based theology.
(30) What have been your pastoral actions during the troubles of recent weeks and months?
Vomiting and scoffing reading your announcements.
Vomiting and scoffing reading your announcements.
(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?
Absolutely, just not with you or any of the splinters. I'll take care of this one myself.
Absolutely, just not with you or any of the splinters. I'll take care of this one myself.
(32) What personal responsibility do you feel for the deplorable condition into which God’s people have sunk?
Guilt free but sorry I let myself get into denial over my obvious wrong decision as a younger man to get involved with WCG and all the uneducated and petty minister types.
Guilt free but sorry I let myself get into denial over my obvious wrong decision as a younger man to get involved with WCG and all the uneducated and petty minister types.
(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
Never was spirit lead so can't prove I still am.
Never was spirit lead so can't prove I still am.
(34) What date did you leave the WCG, and why did you remain beyond May 1995, if this is the case?
1998. I was lied to repeatedly when I asked questions of Joe Tkach from '95-98. In hind sight I would have preferred to leave in '74 when I was first fired in Chicago in the great rebellion of the day but they forgave me. I was young.
1998. I was lied to repeatedly when I asked questions of Joe Tkach from '95-98. In hind sight I would have preferred to leave in '74 when I was first fired in Chicago in the great rebellion of the day but they forgave me. I was young.
(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?
Shook my head, slapped my forehead, laughed to tears and pretty much knew that your "soon" was the same kind of "soon" we find in the NT as to the coming of Jesus.
You're not going to hire me are you...?
21 comments:
Mr. Diehl you completely failed all the terms of capitulation. If any minister was to come back to worship at the feet of Mr. Pack, they should be prepared to be denigrated, humiliated and to live in fear about every word that came out their mouth fearful if it conformed to an extensive multilayered established narrative that could be enforced by any number of yes men as they see fit.
Speaking of worshiping, you Mr. Diehl were one of the persons that Mr. Pack identified personally as a member of the synagogue of Satan of Rev. 3:9. So for you, there would be a question number 36.
Question 36: Have you completely understood that your actions have caused you to be labeled an enemy of God and his Church and the government that he instituted on earth through one man and one man only?
As a labeled enemy, are you now willing to show by fruits of repentance a humility that would enable yourself to worship at the feet of Mr. Pack and his council of Elders as dictated in Rev. 3:9?
That required conclusion was told to me personally by the top ranking minister in the RCG who is still there.
Mr. Pack has long gotten past this 35 requirements that a man has to get completely right to be hired as a minister in the RCG. He is looking for men of Deacon quality only who could be trained and as he said, maybe become a biblical Stephen.
Although there would be no chance for a Deacon in the RCG to pull off what the biblical Stephen did in the bible. Can you imagine a Deacon in the RCG standing up before the greater Christian world and preaching boldly to them with apostle Pack present?
Dave Pack is only looking for men who can be the perfect parrot. No critical thinking, no Stephen moments, he is looking for men who will take a cracker for contentment and be happy and willing to worship a man on earth.
Religious service "retirement" in the Bible-
NUMBERS 8:24 “This applies to the Levites: from twenty-five years old and upward they shall come to do duty in the service of the tent of meeting. 25 And from the age of fifty years they shall withdraw from the duty of the service and serve no more.
110. Are you willing to work for free? (as my accountant says we're Broke)
111. Are you willing to pull weeds on Sundays at the Millennial Funny Farm?
"(32) What personal responsibility do you feel for the deplorable condition into which God’s people have sunk?"
The people live in a deplorable condition because they live in section 8 housing, in the ghetto, because they followed your communist edict and embraced communalism that you said is a tenet of salvation. But I'm responsible and at fault because I'm not like you that is innocent because God chose you and not me to lead your church.
Need evidence this is the correct answer?
Got some real chuckles out of this one. Your no holds barred approach really appeals to me.
If this isn't a flaming example of cultic mind control, I don't know what is. David Pack has mastered all of the known techniques of grieving or bridling the Holy Spirit. He isn't the all-knowing spiritual guide of his own self-image so much as he is the Pied Piper on steroids, who keeps his members operating in "child" mode, leading all who follow him ever closer to that metaphoric cliff and into the abyss.
His eventual demise will be a thing of great beauty to behold! The laws of probability indicate that he cannot continue on like this forever.
BB
Anon noted: "Speaking of worshiping, you Mr. Diehl were one of the persons that Mr. Pack identified personally as a member of the synagogue of Satan of Rev. 3:9."
Dave's got the wrong guy in mind no doubt. I do not attend synagogue as I have to work on Saturdays at the clinic.
Tonto said...
Religious service "retirement" in the Bible-
NUMBERS 8:24 “This applies to the Levites: from twenty-five years old and upward they shall come to do duty in the service of the tent of meeting. 25 And from the age of fifty years they shall withdraw from the duty of the service and serve no more.?
Ooooooh Tonto, Nice shot! :) On the other hand, HWA overrides Moses. Or authors J-Yawhest E-Elohimist, P-Priestly or D-Deuterist, depending on one's education.
The Documentary Hypothesis
J
Pro-Judah; anti-Israel, their rival. Less interested in Moses.
E
Pro-Israel; anti-Judah, their rival. Pro-Moses; Anti-Aaron.
D
Pro-King Josiah. Ironically, Josiah's kingdom collapses 20 years later. They blame the collapse on a previous king, King Manasseh, Josiah's grandfather, so Josiah doesn't take the blame for the collapse of his own kingdom.
P
Written as an alternative to JE. Pro-Priests, specifically the priests who claim to be descended from Aaron. Against rival priests who claim to be descended from Moses.
R
Redactor. J & E were put together earlier to create JE. The Redactor combined JE, D, & P, adding just a few lines of his own to make the transitions smooth.
PS The reality is that neither Dave of RCG nor Herbert of WCG could stand the idea of paying anything to anyone who did not serve them actively. NO ONE retired because it would cost them money to meet their obligations. I have oft repeated how Ron Kelly publicly told the ministry "not to worry. We will take care of you for your years of service" etc. Then of course, Ron went on to note that "Jesus worked a great miracle in the Church and we lost lots of members and their resources."
He did draw somewhat of a blank stare when I asked him how much all the campus property in prime space Pasadena sold for. To this day I have never heard the answer to that question.
Contrast that with Eastman Kodak where my dad worked for 45 years beginning at age 17, retired at 62 because his three dear lifetime friends who all shared carpooling for those 45 years died before retiring and then, even after going bankrupt, met their obligations to my dad up to the day of his death at 98.
At any rate, the beat goes on. I am content with where I am and with whom I am where at it with. She, of course, is absolutely thrilled to be with me. :) I am grateful I chose a profession that fit my personality and that I can do as long as I can do it. I am even more grateful I did not choose a split, splinter or sliver to distract me even more and still from my real interests.
PSS Satan doesn't really have a synagogue. The author of Revelation made that up as a label for all those who did not think or filter and see the world through his eyes. And so it is to this day.
Dennis - have you noticed the people who claim to believe the whole Bible are the ones that follow it the least?
Are any of these COG leaders obeying the most important law of loving their neighbor?
Plus the scriptures they mangle and ignore.....
I can't imagine why you weren't hired Dennis. :)
By the way, Ron Kelly is an idiot. There! I said it!! Throw me in the Lake of Fire!
Richard
Mr. Diehl your answer: Anon noted: "Speaking of worshiping, you Mr. Diehl were one of the persons that Mr. Pack identified personally as a member of the synagogue of Satan of Rev. 3:9."
Dave's got the wrong guy in mind no doubt. I do not attend synagogue as I have to work on Saturdays at the clinic.
... Confirms for me two things; one, you are a very smart man and two, you are in a very good place in your life right now.
You and I both know Dave Pack can read and if anyone thinks Dave Pack has not identified and labeled his enemies, he is living in la la land. This man has declared that he is the swift witness unto those of the church and those without the church who he thinks is a threat or an enemy. That 35 question capitulation contract that you filled out was literally bragged about by Mr. Pack to start a sermon. His condescending words: "brethren, did you think we were going to let them (ministers) off easy" was telling and quite a contrast to what the headline of the story was at the time: All Brethren Reunited. The real story was all brethren were coming with their tithes, offerings and "Common", the ministers were going to grovel before Mr. Pack, three men were going to die by fire in the pulpit and all declared enemies were going to worship before his (Mr. Pack) feet.
The dynamic of a man so enamored with himself that when religion doesn't happen on his terms or in his time frame, he then projects what he is going to do to create that religion on his terms and in his way. That is the scary part. Right now he is being held at bay with every new tree that he plants and with every new garden and lake and ranch and building which is a drug for a man that deserves it all.
But would there, could there be a day when this man acts on his words to start the Great Tribulation? Or would there be another day when this man acts on his words to track down every last enemy of his and slay them with the edge of the sword? With a mind that has a terrorist organization operating within it, anything is possible.
Your answer of mistaken identity and non synagogue attendance was perfect. Children, Grand children and significant others take precedent and is too much to lose over putting a bullseye upon ones self.
The concept of pure religion as defined by damaged minds is something unthinkable to many that practice religion. But history shows us and tell us that pure religion un-defiled as discerned by some men can be very destructive.
I recall being in the boardroom with Dave when he unveiled this madness to all the men. My initial thought was, "What an arrogant jackass! What kind of person would construct this and seriously believe anyone in their right mind would subject themselves to this?" Of course, no one did. We all looked stupid for posting such lunacy.
Don't know if it's this tough, but COGWA requires all incoming students in its "Foundation Institute" (similar to UCG's Ambassador Bible College) to undergo a 20-minute or more "personal interview with a faculty member."
Clearly, they're trying to screen out some people - but which ones? The ones who know too much Bible? Too little?
TLA said...
Dennis - have you noticed the people who claim to believe the whole Bible are the ones that follow it the least?
Are any of these COG leaders obeying the most important law of loving their neighbor?
Me: I think when they say "the whole Bible" they mean they have found scriptures that allow them to do what mainline Christianity clearly thinks is insane and just because it is found in the Bible does not mean it's shelf life has not expired for our day. I found that where there dry religious counties in Kentucky, the alcoholism was out of control. Where hellfire and brimstone was preached, porn and strip clubs thrived. Where constant talk of how the family should be was where divorce was above the average. And Baptist fundamentalist ministers and Pentecostal ministers were the most likely to go astray and get kicked out.
Loving one's neighbor in the COGs is a function of IF that neighbor is in the church. Dave's Church.
Dave is a spiritual bully and overlord plain and simple. He'd love to humiliate a wanna come along minister, just to be sure everyone knew he was in charge. All ministers must think and be like Dave. That is why he has no accountability and certain no concept of "in a multitude of counsel there is safety" He takes no counsel but his own. It is why, no matter how they really felt, his 16 man kiss up crew called "the board" all agreed with Dave on the whatever of Elul just had to be the time and Dave could say they all agreed even if they didn't. He demanded they all agree so he could say they all did.
Dennis suggested that in DaveWorld:
All ministers must think and be like Dave.
Nothing could be further from the truth. All ministers in RCG must wallow gratefully in servitude to Dave. Only Dave has the prerogative to be Dave. Also, an ordinary minister must not think like Dave; rather, an ordinary minister in RCG must always think whatever Dave is thinking today.
Really great insight What About the Truth.
I'm not Dave's or anyone else's enemy. my dad rode for hours with Dave visiting all over NY as a local elder. I had to ask Dave to back off as my dad was a nice compliant elder as he thought he should be, but he was in his late 70's doing all this. Dad also would have never forgiven himself if he had been out with Dave, and my mom needed him.
My parents took care of his children in my home when they were little. My dad stood up to Dave when he disagreed and I have shared my brother in laws confrontation with Dave that ended in "Well Dave, If I didn't think you had shit for brains, I'd care what you thought." I didn't come into the church or ministry to be pushed around by those with insane ideas and grossly inflated opinions about themselves. I applied that to HWA and GTA as well. Just people and once one can see through that façade of bluster and theological blovation, the fear of consequences in speaking up dissipates and the mouth can move in sinc with ones actual feelings and beliefs about what others think or say, especially if it impacts them personally.
If there is a God or if there was a God, EVERYONE is equal in the eyes of that God and any minister of that God, as I read it, is to remember that "he that is "greatest among you", and I always took that phrase to be rather sarcastic and tongue in cheek, "LET HIM BE YOUR SERVANT" Not something the guru's seem to fathom.
RCG members might disagree with Dave but he has something they want from him and until they don't, they will sit on their asses and keep their masks firmly affixed until they suffocate or rip it off along with a pound or two of flesh.
I just have no room for theological bullshit that hurts people and simply is not true. With Dave, all of what he said about prophecy, himself and how it's all going to be with he and Jesus at the helm is simply crazy psycho babble. From my view, no one is friends with Dave unless Dave can get something from them or maybe they from him until he catches on. He goes through ministers, members and office staff unlike anyone I have ever met. There is a reason for that and the reason is his personality and self absorbed and inflated theological view of himself. Let's face it. A man who sees himself spoken of in the scriptures can't be the sharpest pencil in the box. It's an spiritual illness or maybe just a physical one. But while it can be humorous, it also can be dangerous. I put Dave in the second category.
Basically I have no tolerance for theology that hurts people more than helps and torments them rather than is a helper of their joy. Joy in what? What is it that one feels joyful about after hearing Dave drone on and on about things which not only won't shortly come to pass but will never come to pass?
How about this. I go to RCG HQ on a Sabbath and he and I openly discuss the Bible and our WCG experience in front of his church and the counsel of the 16 (probably 4 by now). Victor Kubic can moderate. We can have Ron Weinland talk about suffering for Jesus in prison and the faith it takes to get through that. Gerald Flurry can talk about his justification for a private jet in ministry and what it will feel like to die without anything he said would happen in his lifetime happening. James Malm can come and explain why we need to give a rat's ass about when the grain ripens in Jerusalem and what now when we can't tell the exact moment. Bob Thiel can give a SHORT lecture on "Football. Is it for the Thankful Christian" or maybe something on how the Catholic Mayan Children of Fatima play into the New Testament. Gerald Weston can give a talk on why Dom Perignon is the best buy for Night to Be Much Remembered and why British Israelism is still correct even when proven a false and outdated teaching of the 19th Century.
We can call it "The Feast of Fools" and All in all a good time would be had by all. :)
OH and too...Ron Weinland can talk about the tricks it is going to take for the Two Witnesses to get into Jerusalem unnoticed and then given free reign without being hauled in to the Jerusalem Mental Health Center for signs and symptoms of Jerusalem Syndrome, treated and then deported. That's going to take some ingenuity especially if they know you are coming.
I remember seeing HWA/GTA in the big tent in Jekyll Island back in the 60's when I was a kid.
I sat in RCM's Harmony of the Gospels class in AC in the 80's.
I left the WCG and started a GCG group in my area in the 90's.
I met Pack once and asked him only one question in 1993. He told me that "this might not be the right church (GCG) for you".
that's when I left.
Insider: "Of course, no one did (apply)"
What? no applicants/supplicants?
Next move: cancel Auditorium, pull slick high-definition TV program off air, convert practically idle 'Mail Processing Center' to Grounds-Keeping facility...
Jeremiah 31:31
Period.
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