It's a day late and a dollar short, but yesterday, July 31, 2025, marked what would have been Herbert W. Armstrong's 133rd birthday. Little did he know the chaos that would follow, as unscrupulous individuals tried to imitate him, leading to the formation of numerous splinter groups. No one could have foreseen the rise of such incredible buffoons and great liars as we see today in figures like Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Alton Billingsley, and Ron Weinland.
66 comments:
HWA did mention in a June 1985 Worldwide News article...
"For some years now, there have been some, like vultures, waiting for me to die. They would like to come back and take over the leadership of the
Church in my stead."
Hmmm - prophecy fulfilled?!
Happy birthday Herbie….
Now just imagine if Gerry were President of the USA.
This day would be a national holiday.
And another image would be engraved onto Mount Rushmore………his image.
No not Gerry’s you silly people, but Herbie's lol.
Mine you I’m sure Gerry wouldn’t say no to an effigy of himself on said mountain. Move over Herb.
I suspect even if he had an inkling of things to come he would not care - he enjoyed the fancy suits and plane and fancy everything else. Looking back one wonders what he even achieved
I believe HWA did have some lasting influences, although they might not be the ones for which he hoped.
First, he was unique, in that his background in advertising or marketing is what made him successful as a pioneer televangelist. Also, he influenced mainstresm evangelists by demonstrating the effectiveness of teaching tithing in building an empire with millions of dollars flowing in each year. I had never heard of tithing in my church experiences or through any friendships prior to my family's involvement in Armstrongism. Now, it is a common practice.
Thirdly, his emphasis on a soon coming apocalypse resonated with a handful of other Christian evangelists who were part of the emerging Jesus movement which began in the 1970s. By the 1980s, even President Reagan was stating that he was amongst those who believed we were living in the end times.
I believe HWA also exerted influence in popularizing natural foods, proper exercise, and the avoidance of medications. This is an example of one of the very few possibly "net good" aspects of his life and teachings. Of course, he took the antimedical thing to extreme, and people died as a result.
He was also a voice for extreme conservatism, and influenced the modern conservative movement with his intolerance, and authoritarianism.
But, I still wish I had been an early condom salesman, and had known old Horace back in the 1800s!
BB
"He was also a voice for extreme conservatism.."
Not really. He was anti-abortion and advocated an assertive military so that it was safe for him to play church. But in every other way he was fundamentally left wing. Your extreme conservatives believe in small government, the bill of rights and free trade. His cult was the exact opposite. What church member can even define the word rights? Try scratching the surface Bob.
As for me I don't give a R.I.P.!
Byker Bob, aka BB, Saturday, August 2, 2025 at 12:31:27 AM PDT, wrote, in part:
"...I believe HWA did have some lasting influences, although they might not be the ones for which he hoped.
First, he was unique, in that his background in advertising or marketing is what made him successful as a pioneer televangelist. Also, he influenced mainstresm evangelists by demonstrating the effectiveness of teaching tithing...
Thirdly, his emphasis on a soon coming apocalypse resonated with a handful of other Christian evangelists who were part of the emerging Jesus movement which began in the 1970s...
I believe HWA also exerted influence in popularizing natural foods, proper exercise, and the avoidance of medications. This is an example of one of the very few possibly "net good" aspects of his life and teachings..."
******
BB, those are interesting observations within your own personal life. Overall, I too learned similar "milk-like" things, including knowledge regarding the words of the Bible, the law, clean/unclean meats, Sabbath, annual Holydays, etc.; however, virtually all of the prophecy was like spiritual junk food. Was there really any real "meat?"
As a result of what HWA taught, many (like Doug Winnail, of a scattered organization, and other fleeing hirelings of the former WCG) are still seeking/preaching the junk food of: "another Jesus" to return very soon (in 3 to 5 years?) to reign on earth 1,000 years while His Father still hadn't made their enemies a footstool.
They virtually all preach a second coming to earth of their "another Jesus" while turning a blind eye to where Jesus Christ went after He was murdered, resurrected, and went to third Heaven to spend some time with His Father: that God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:;13)
Some still look forward to a "third resurrection."
Some (again, like Doug) don't believe in salvation by God's grace (2 Cor 5:19; I John 2:2, etc.). They believe in self, earning some salvation (and even reward) by their own works.
As Jesus foretold in John 10, the scattering of those of the former WCG is today a reality, and most of the hirelings are exposed as being uncaring. Did any of them see that wolf?
John 10:12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep."
Well, those hirelings probably still consider the wolf, Satan, a major principality, to be like a wimp instead of what Paul described:
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26
How would a Doug Winnail get snared so easily? Self, or as James said:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
What spirit is that, which James wrote of? Something that existed, somehow, within those fellow Christians James was speaking to.
Lust, envy? Those are not fruits of God's Spirit, but they are fruits of a spirit, another spirit, who can easily inspire others (like Doug, and hirelings of the former WCG) to believe in such things as another Jesus, and another gospel, and that God's grace is insufficient to save one.
Yes, even HWA was snared to one degree or another....well, just like us at times, but when will those hirelings who fled the former WCG acknowledge that they were all snared, are scattered, perhaps even luke warm in attitude, be granted/given repentance and get away from their "junk food" and become an ambassador of Christ teaching God's truth and not false theories of their own minds?
Time will tell...
John
July 31 has a meaning for me. That was the date, back in the early 1960s, when I became a member of the US Air Force...
No.
BB, you way over estimate his influence. Most people only barely heard of him. Members would tell you that he was well known, but that’s only because they were told to say it, and their world was very small, limited to him. He was one of the first televangelists, I give you that. But he had no political influence. He never met a US President. He never endorsed a candidate. And since his church rejected civic duty, he couldn’t do what Mormons and Moonies did in that area. Tithing was very well known before him. I don’t know where you got the idea otherwise. Health foods, and all that? 1960s hippies made that a thing.
Pervo was a “big fish in a small pond” kind of egomaniac. He didn’t care so much about being known in the world. He just wanted to be uber-top dog in his own little circle. Oh, and meet bigwigs as part of that.
For real, you are completely off on this. The only community where he is a household name outside of his following are Sabbatarians (to some degree), Anglo-Israelists, and White nationalists. (And no, those last two are NOT one of the same.)
Perhaps this is a good day to get it started: Has anyone considered a specific effort this Feast of Tabernacles to challenge ACOGs? A few years ago, I trolled a Facebook page, set up for it, but was blocked when I started talking about how Armstrong was rendered impotent by all the medication he took. Lol
Perhaps a collection taken to purchase billboard space in Branson this year. They usually have several ACOGs there, and if you will place signs would have to be seen by members, as well as the general population. Just referred to a website set up with some very basic stuff specifically debunking the religion. A few key coltish comments by him, a streamlined version of my debunking of their succession… Basic stuff that will get newbies to question, get the remaining thinkers there to think, and get the locals to ask questions of them, which they would be unable and forbidden to answer.
I don't know what WCG you attended, or if you even graduated from high school, 3:17, but, HWA most definitely did believe in small government, most of the Bill of Rights, and free trade. You may not have been around to hear him lambaste Martin Luther King , to hear him and his lieutenants complain bitterly about how the govenrment would soon be telling him how to run Ambassador College, and Imperial Schools (integration), and to hear him thunder that "God''s way is segregation!" He also hated the welfare state. He taught that he who doesn't work shouldn't eat.
He loved and exploited the parts of the Bill of Rights which protected his freedoms to establish and maintain a crackpot religion, yet he did not allow freedom of speech within his chirch. He was thankful for freedom of the press protecting his ability to publish the Plain Truth and all the booklets, but despised how that free press depicted himself and Republican presidents. He hated the judiciary branch of the government, and did not trust them to dispense justice. He did not like big brother government forcing church members to vaccinate their children. Also, he was very much into Nixon opening up China, and basked in the free trade which allowed him to obtain expensive goods from around the world.
Basically, even in the realm of liberal vs conservative, HWA was "pick and choose". He loved the freedoms the founding documents of our country provided insofar as they allowed him to conduct his own little pissant kingdom, and to be selective about which of the freedoms (inalienable rights) he would pass along to his members. You can't get much more extreme with small govenrment than his "government from the top down" model, concentrating all largely unchecked powers within himself.
The big question is how can those of us who were so controlled and trashed out by an extremely conservative religion maintain a love for conservative principles? I guess that one attempt would be your own, that of simplistically missbranding the perp as having been a commie liberal. The other is to realize that conservatism is basically good, it's just that when it is taken to extremes, as HWA did, it becomes oppressive. Even conservatism needs checks and balances placed upon it in order for it to be equally fair to all who live under it. The same types of very conservative Christians as HWA was have become disproportionately influential in the conservative movement of today. Even the deaf dumb and blind kid from "Tommy" can discern that, because Tommy would still be able to tell from his sense of smell!
BB
I'm a positive thinker, but I realized that even the few tidbits I listed above would be challenged. First of all, Lee, in any given field, you really don't need to worry about "most people". All you need do is influence your peers, those who are doing the same things you are. In HWA's case, many of his fellow televangelists were tuned into him in an attempt to determine how he got so big, what made him so successful. Just as Eric Clapton might borrow and bend a guitar riff from Freddie King and reach even greater numbers of listeners with it, the televangelists percolated key parts of HWA's schtick down into their own congreagations.
Also, lest you forget, it was HWA's huge political influence with Gov. George Deukmejian that got the receivership imposed upon him and the church quashed.
Hippies borrowed many things from many sources as they dissected "the establishment", questioning all they had been taught, and appropriating alternatives. But, too many of them were living on reds, vitamin C and cocaine throughout their long strange trip, and could not have cared less about health and physical fitness. There was during that era, a proliferation of body builders (Schwarzaneggar), martial artists, and just plain people who turned away from cigarettes and alcohol looking for a better way to live. People couldn't come to our churches, but they watched us and asked questions as we dined or took supplements at work or school, so our dietery habits were indeed a part of the raising of consciousness of that period.
You should probably check in with nck regarding HWA's influences. As I pointed out in my first paragraph, to be an influencer, you don't have to influence the man on the street directly. You influence his influencers. My peers and I have done that very effectively in placing new technology. It is far more effective than going door to door.
BB
John, you certainly pointed out some additional, very lasting influences which affect members lives today. In many ways, I believe it is more difficult for the church people to shake some of the influences of HWA which were bogus and bad because they regarded him as being God's Apostle. They regard the current crop of leaders (hirelings as you succinctly call them) as being place-holders for their Apostle. They are not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis.
BB
The adults are what I call PSM's, Lee. (Psychological Spiritual Masochists) For most, this is a pathology which deepens with age and experience, and it is a rare case in which they would even perceive a bottoming out process caused by their belief system as such.
Certainly good thinking to target the locals, but best chance at accomplishing something positive is to do your best to break the generational cycle. Think like the Disney Imagineers, and also implant some subliminals into your billboard message for the kids.
Newbies? Hard to reach. They're still in their honeymoon period!
BB
I was born in the 1990s, after HWA died. But from what I know of him, I think we had a lot in common. Yes, we've definitely been compared. If his two trees had been in South Park Colorado,, my ancestors could have been fertilizer for them
đź’©
BB,
I’m one that would like to think hwa had as little impact as possible, but I think he did have an effect on religions due to his branding/marketing, tithing, and apocalyptic messaging. Like some said I think the exercise, avoiding medication, and advocating health foods was only marginal. But, good points.
I think Armstrong supported conservative ideas as it suited him to give him freedom to push forward his brand of false religion.
But, while he supported small government outside the church, he ran a totalitarian ship inside. While he liked the bill of rights outside the church, he crushed free speech and assembly, etc….while supporting the quartering of soldiers (i.e. “visiting” ministers) in one’s home.
The church might have touted conservative ideas on a national level but ran a totalitarian communist government inside with the elites (HQ and upper tier ministry) and their chosen (ministry and rich members), and we remaining useful idiots…we thought we were doing something good but as an organization we wound up just providing luxuries for “our betters”, but if we zigged instead of zagged the jack booted minister would kill us in the mind of members and now ex-friends and ex-family through disfellowshipment.
The Church itself was much more communist in its function than conservative.
What what is this I hear from BB??
HWA was into "small government."
Does this mean I have to WORK as ruler of Tatooine.......??
Tithing btw was extremely common.... Even John D. Rockefeller tithed, the Kelogg and IBM founder etc
Interesting to see "kids" here commenting that HWA was "not influential since no one knows him"
Hilarious stuff....
as just this week USA dropped out of Lefty UNESCO.... again....
Nck
Looks like The JWs got 1975 from HWA ten years after his booklet. HWA being such a convincing salesman/con-artist. So that would be an example of a pre=existing Millerite cult (JWs) being influenced by a next century Millerite conman!
Herbert W Armstrong's life is closer to the American Civil War than it is to today.
Byker Bob, BB, Saturday, August 2, 2025 at 10:26:21 AM PDT, wrote:
John, you certainly pointed out some additional, very lasting influences which affect members lives today. In many ways, I believe it is more difficult for the church people to shake some of the influences of HWA which were bogus and bad because they regarded him as being God's Apostle. They regard the current crop of leaders (hirelings as you succinctly call them) as being place-holders for their Apostle. They are not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis.
******
Once upon a time, a Lesson Three article I read, written about June 1997, referred to the former WCG hirelings as "would be" clones.
A beautiful Monarch butterfly, for example, may emerge out of its pupae; however, that living thing came from a package of anlagen cells enclosed within a caterpillar. The caterpillar never metamorphosis into a butterfly. The anlagen cells were like an organism (butterfly) within an organism (caterpillar), but a thing of beauty emerges.
Now, you mentioned that the hirelings are: "...not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis," which is an interesting thought, because if they are perpetual they never emerge as anything worthwhile or worth seeing.
FWIIW, I'll share some parts of the article that made mention of the "would be" clones:
[["......Brethren, we have to understand that GOD is the One who reveals, NOT man. It is not up to men to start their little churches, their little congregations, and their little corporate boards. That is up to GOD, not man. God ALWAYS shows and leads the way to revelation and understanding of His Word...
...NOT ONE of these hirelings was commissioned by God to carry on Mr. Armstrong’s work! They are only “would be” clones. Mr. Armstrong NEVER picked ANY of these men, and neither did God Almighty!
When God chooses a servant, HE teaches and trains that man and inspires him to teach HIS truth and carry out a specific commission. He did just that with Mr. Armstrong. And, Mr. Armstrong did fulfill his part of the work that he was called to do.
God is moving right along with His Plan. He is right on schedule. If He wanted any of these hirelings to carry on Mr. Armstrong’s work, He would have inspired Mr. Armstrong to choose one of them. Instead, he WAS inspired to choose a man that was to head in a completely different direction that resulted in the dividing and scattering of the Church and the beginning of the Laodicean Era.
Each of God’s servants had different works and purposes to accomplish in God’s overall plan. Now, some have been trained and taught by a predecessor such as Joshua, Elisha, the Apostles...
...Others were raised up independently and prepared to come on the scene such as Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, Christ..
...They all had their specific roles to play. None of them carried on another man’s work...
...God always provides ONE servant at a time to lead His Church or Era. He leads ONE servant and reveals only to him what God’s people need to know to fulfill His Plan. He NEVER works through four or five “would be” clones that vote themselves into office or start their own work simply because they did not have the patience or the faith to “go with the flow” and actually leave it up to God! God has NEVER forsaken His people…..."]]
Anyway, your mentioning of pupae, chrysalis reminded me of the "would be" clones of this particular article, and whether HWA, followed by the choosing of Joseph W. Tkach Sr. as successor, has anything to do with the dividing/scattering resulting in the existence of Laodiceans (Rev 3:14-21)? Time may be telling.
Joe Tkach Sr. certainly delivered a different message from that of HWA.
But, what message are all of these "would be" clones and/or perpetual pupae/chrysalis (place-holders) sending out to us today?
Time will tell...
John
Considering R/WCG did not believe in celebrating birthdays, it is hard to wish him a posthumous 133rd happy birthday. It's also hard to believe he would have been that old, until I consider my own age, LOL.
Herbert Armstrong is credited with being a pioneering radio and television evangelist beginning in 1934 on KORE radio, and the World Tomorrow on television in black and white during the mid 1950s. However, many of his "unique" doctrines borrowed from others have been largely discredited, British Israelism being the primary one.
Herbert Armstrong died about a decade before the internet became widely available. As Dennis Diehl has pointed out here on Banned on occasions, the internet ended the R/WCG as we once knew it. The preponderance of evidence exists that HWA committed incest with his daughter Dororthy during the same time he was allegedly being called by God to raise up the Philadelphian era. It is doubtful HWA could have survived the internet age had he lived to see it.
Still, HWA to this day despite his failed 1972/1975 return of Christ prophecy remains fully entrenched in the minds of many in the ACOGs. He holds the same reverence to the ACOGs that Ellen G. White holds with the Seventh Day Adventists.
When son Richard Armstrong died in the automobile accident in 1958, the future succession fell on son Garner Ted. When Herbert ousted son Garner Ted in 1978, it left a void in the line of future succession. It appears Tkach, Sr. was hastily chosen near the end of HWAs life. HWA's successful $200 Million+ a year religious empire was up for grabs. Success without a successor is failure! There is no physical evidence of HWA's legacy in existence today (i.e. Ambassador College in Big Sandy and the Pasadena campus headquarters). The Pasadena "House of God" gone along with other real estate such as the Mount Pocono feast site. His only legacy is found among the dwindling members of the splintered Armstrong Churches of God. I remember watching the telecast in the 1980s and Mr. Armstrong said that if we didn't see these events come to pass in the next 15 years, we will know he was false minister. As John says often, "time will tell". In HWA's case, time has told.
Richard
P.S. I would like to clarify/correct one thing I've read in the comments. Herbert Armstrong did draw the attention of fellow Californian President Reagan. I believe Mr. Armstrong met First Lady Nancy Reagan on one occasion. Additionally, the President and first lady issued public condolences to the Worldwide Church of God on Mr. Armstrong's passing.
BB, had HWA believed in small government, this blog would not exist.
I agree. How people keep obsessing on about him is beyond me. That applies to both camps: the worshippers and haters. It's like car enthusiasts complaining about Henry Ford.
To Sosa @ 9:40, I agree with you totally in your identification of HWA's church government as being totalitarian. However, most of us who were around and left prior to the emergence of the splinters associated his government not with communism, but with Naziism. There are good reasons for this. It was reported by members of the now famous "cleanup crew" who went through HWA's house following HWA's passing that a well-read copy or copies of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" were found. Many of us who attended Ambassador College during the '60s had our own copies of Mein Kampf, as it was recommended reading material during that era. We had also been shown archival German films from the Third Reich at origninal SEP in Tejas, and on several occasions at Ambassador College. These films demonstrated Hitler's leadership of and effectiveness in communication with the German people. HWA spoke fondly of Adolf Hitler's temper, his own being similarly unbridled. If he ever had anything positive to say about Lenin, Stalin, or Khruschev, I never heard it.
It is said that we as people, through our continued responses to our enemies, become very much like them. The two major boogeymen for Armstrongites have always been Germany, and the Catholic Church. If you re-examine your WCG experience, it is easy to find many examples in which we as a group became just like those enemies. HWA always spoke of communism as being soul-crushing. Yet, he often praised the spirit and industriousness of the German people, both in the context of the Third Reich, and in their recovery from the ignominious defeat they suffered at the hands of the Allies in WW-II.
In modern contemporary politics, it has become very popular to look for and compare practices of "the liberals" to communism (which actually may very well be true). The nature of the Nazis has receded in impact with time, because while Naziism was effectively defeated, Communism remains our enemy. That, and the fact that the German Army has never landed here, have caused people who have spent 30 years in the splinters, and have watched the examples of David Pack's "commonism", and Gerald Flurry's draconian demands on members' finances, has caused people to mislabel HWA's church governance to Communism. It is not. It has always been more akin to Naziism. By the way, the jackboot thing (and goose stepping) was once used more or less exclusively on German soldiers
BB
John at 6:34: I agree, to a certain extent, with the biblical examples of leaders and the roles of their successors which you cited. I no longer accept the hypothesis that HWA was called by God as any sort of end times apostle, to restore truth, or to warn modern day "Israel" of its impending punishment. The horse galloped away from that barn about 50 years ago.
The original model involved the arrival of the Germans in 1972. Philadelphians being taken to the place of safety (Petra as it was then assumed), and the Laodiceans being those who were supernaturally chosen to be left behind and to suffer through the tribulation to learn and "qualify" for the Kingdom. Nobody foresaw Laodicean splinters, let alone their existence for 30 years with no end yet in sight. Before his sins were known, GTA was the only individual anyone envisioned as being his father's successor, although some isolated naysayers speculated that it would be he who started the Laodicean era.
My understanding of Jesus and His leadership and work is that upon His passing, the Apostles and those whom they groomed and ordained, went to various areas of the then known world, continuing His ministry. It is plain that they sometimes had differences of opinion as to what Jesus himself would do in different situations, hence the "circumcision party", practical applications of the gospel message in the Gentile communities, and then there was the phenomenon of Paul and his work, an Apostle, but not one of the originals. I would hesitate to compare the church areas which each of the Apostles raised up to "splinters", because I do not consider the original Apostles to be hirelings. Not even! I believe they were the real deal, although no man could ever be Jesus' successor
But, that's what I've gleaned in the aftermath of the golden era of Armstrongism. As luck would have it, I did cross paths with Joe Tkach Sr and Jr., liked them both, and would like to think that that was mutual. I do not see them as being "Elijah" HWA's "Elisha", nor do I see them as being Judas, or Simon Magus. I believe they acted to reform Armstrongism, to eliminate some of the toxic and cultic practices which they had experienced in the old WCG, and yet their work did not become a super-blessed, breakaway phenomenon, or any sort of endtimes ministry. We've all read "Honey, I Shrunk the Church."
BB
Israel didn't agree to tithing and 3 holydays of "Trumpets", Atonement, Eighth day in Exodus 24. Why? Those laws haven''t been given yet. They were given later, "under", after the Levitical Priesthood was set up, but LP now removed. Did Herbert ever know this?
I don't know about you, but the HWA thing ate my lunch. That's what I reflect on.
Scout
“Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst.” - C.S. Lewis
If H. Armstrong casts out GT Armstrong, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Tank
You could say, like Sosa, that the WCG was more communist than conservative in their approach. And what I found was that the splinter groups skill operate on a communist level while they are promoters of the conservative party from Reagan to Bush to Trump. I say that because I saw a man with his family kicked out of the church just for disagreeing with a leading minister in this splinter group. Armstrong promoted the philosophy of the government of god that he mentioned coincided with the government that would come to this earth via Jesus Christ. The problem is that the structure lacked the fruits of the spirit namely love.
As John so eloquently asked, “ Did any of them see that wolf? 🎤 drop.
And BB is dead on the money with understanding that conservatism requires checks and balances placed upon it in order for it to be equally fair to all who live under it (1 Timothy 6:17-18). The conservative movement of today is also intermingled with the evangelists who desire end of the world calamities over human suffering just for the sake of prophecy. It’s also intermingled with nationalistic ideology the same as British Israelism or Zionism, where “others’ are considered less than or 2nd class within a nation or organization. So Armstrongism has those aspects that still resonate to this day.
Tank
11:23 wrote: "BB, had HWA believed in small government, this blog would not exist."
If the Churches of God actually practiced what they preached, were led by servant leaders and not self-appointed, lying, false prophets, and were grace-filled Christians, this blog would not exist.
One finds on line this comment:
''In one of the most peculiar twists of the 1984 campaign, St. John’s apocalyptic vision of the “End Times” emerged as a political issue.
During the final presidential debate, Panelist Marvin Kalb of NBC asked Ronald Reagan, “Do you feel that we are now heading, perhaps, for some kind of nuclear Armageddon?” While Nancy Reagan gasped, “Oh, no!” to companions, the President answered that, yes, he had chatted with people about “the biblical prophecies of what would portend the coming of Armageddon and so forth, and the fact that a number of theologians for the last decade or more have believed that this was true, that the prophecies are coming together that portend that.” But, he added soothingly, “no one knows whether those prophecies mean that Armageddon is a thousand years away or day after tomorrow. So I have never seriously warned and said we must plan according to Armageddon''
Maybe Reagan watched the false apostle on tv from time to time.
Armstrong's own words have condemned him as a false messenger and false apostle. He had no idea whatsoever of end times it was not revealed to him.
What are you talking about,11:26??? Car enthusiasts do complain about Henry Ford! The old flathead V-8 blocks often suffered from casting shift, meaning that the metal forming the cylinders would be thinner on one side than the other. Engine restorers still find massive sand deposits in the water jackets when rebuilding the motors, the center cylinders are designed to be too close to one another so that the center exhaust ports are siamesed, which caused overheating even on the later model flatheads with dual water pumps. Henry resisted putting hydraulic brakes in his cars and trucks until 1939! Other manufacturers had Wagner, Lockheed, and Bendix hydraulics in the 1920s! Henry was a horrible father to his son Edsel, and tormented him to an early grave. Many people lost their lives because Henry would not allow the unions in. Oh, and Henry liked Adolf Hitler!
Others have noted that Henry Ford, early industrialist, had a personality very similar to that of HWA! So, now you can be more accurate in your comparisons and assessments!
BB
Well NO2HWA, why don't you be the standard bearer of such godly behaviour then. Be the change you claim to want to see in others.
I stand by my first comment, that ranting about Herbert Armstrong in 2025, is as fruitless as modern day car buyers ranting about the Tin Lizzie Ford car.
Tin Lizzies actually produced something beneficial to society. Herbert Armstrong did nothing of the sort. He destroyed families and still is destroying them today, though his proxies.
HWA was nothing but an opportunist who managed to manipulate many into believing his interpretations of scripture.
The apostle John precisely captures the central theme of the Philadelphia era ministry: "...the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie." (Revelation 3:9)
That is exactly what it was. Now we see many confused splinter groups arising from this "synagogue of Satan." The division and competition for tithes says it all.
HWA was never the chosen one of the Most High. While he was correct on some doctrines (heaven, hell, the Soul, etc.), he failed in other more important doctrines. For example, there were never three tithes, but rather, three purposes of the tithe. He did not know the Name of the Most High, nor the Name of His Son. (Yahweh, Yahshua). He failed to understand that only pagans used the term "God" instead of Elohim. He failed to understand that Yahshua never formed a "church" but rather an "Assembly". He never came to understand that Passover was kept at the end of the 14th, rather than at the beginning of the 14th. Likewise he screwed up on how to calculate Pentecost. And on and on. His prophecies all failed, some 209 pronouncements that never came to pass.
"The problem is that the structure lacked the fruits of the spirit namely love."
5..21, But that's only true if the structure itself is just. The purpose of the fruits of the spirit isn't to make evil work. Members were always expected to tolerate all manner of abuse in order to make the church "work." Complain too loudly or too often and one gets thrown out of the church.
Correct Lake of Fire Church of God
“When Herbert ousted son Garner Ted in 1978, it left a void in the line of future succession. "
Usually you’ll have the son follow in the fathers footsteps after the passing even in Protestantism (Billy/Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell/ Falwell Jr). Not saying they are a shining example. And even when you look biblically Abraham to Isaac, David to Solomon etc.
That failed prophecy in 1975, then the disfellowship of GTA in 1978, then the death of HWA in 1986 left that void. Then getting to the 1990s, their "apostasy" leading to the splinter groups. What is ironic, is also in a splinter group that Rod Meredith was in also kept saying in the next 10 to 15 years this and that. When you’re the leader in one of the ACOG and you’re not the one of the two witnesses because the Messiah didn’t come, well, then there requires a plan B??
That loose brick in Armstrongism was the ousting of Garner Ted nine years before his father’s passing. Had that not happened, the original association probably would have remained intact much longer. An inside job.
Correct 6:34 You can't bear fruit when the tree isn't a good tree.
Luke 6:43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
For instance one cannot start their church on the foundation of segregation. And that's just one error. But the thing is as humans, we make mistakes and one can change, they didn't really change within in more ways than one.
Tank
Yes, Byker, the jack boots originated with the Nazi's but the Russians used them too and they provide the imagery I was looking for with a nod to Solzhenitsyn's use of the term. The Nazi's had a master race and while we in the WCG had a "chosen" ekklesia, we did have more minorities than most "white" churches at the time. So, that kinda threw me off the Nazi comparison even though we are talking about religious beliefs and not race in the comparison.
Totalitarianism is the primary descriptor. I think nazism had a greater respect for their own though, and Nazis viewed their Aryan supporters as closer in ability than Herbie thought about his members and Stalin thought about his people. I'll stick with the WCG/communism comparison for those and a few other reasons. But, definite Nazi comparisons also.
Reagan was a freqyent visitor of the auditorium and the insttumental power on american politics to engage the christian right into politics since 1965.....
The group of lobbyists whl did this from California - the worlds 7th economic superpower) since the sixties is widely documented.
Nck
Herbert in his last months alive repeatedly had vebal messages passed via visitors back to Garner Ted, saying he wanted to see him.
But Garner Ted couldn't gain access to his Father.
Who knows what Herbert really wanted to do. He was too frail and too isolated from family members not to end up a prey of his own acquired power and wealth.
Ronald Reagan never set foot in the auditorium. Nancy was there.
Reagan administration also brought in that illegal immigration (from the Cali), easy no fault divorce and foreign policies that impacted central america as well. Wonderful Christian foresight.
What use being on this website with total nimkompoops who dont even know Governor Reagan attended concerts several times.
Know it alls NOT. STUPID
Nck
Nck, your outsmarting yourself with your bravo sierra. Remember, “true Christians” like Armstrong are not supposed to have political impact, according to him. You’re so desperate to uphold the impact of your child molesting pervert of a false apostle that you’re lying and claiming he had an impact he wasn’t supposed to have!
Did you know the desperation actually has a scent that travels over the inter-webs? It’s coming straight from your posts.
That is your opinion based on your experiences, others opinions can differ based on their experiences.
Too much time is given to Herbert Armstrong, it is not a healthy practice to do in my opinion.
Hi Lee.
You made 5 mistakes in one posting..bye bye now idiot.
It was even attributed to Ronald Reagan that the Auditorium staff was called Ambassadroids.
HWA was called "a navigator" for this worlds leaders by the President of Lebanon.... So far idiot Lee Walker.
Nck
NCK wrote: "Reagan was a freqyent visitor of the auditorium "
Ronald Reagan never visited the auditorium. Nancy was there, not her husband. I know because I was an usher, Assistant House Manager, and House Manager towards the end, working there from January of 1976 till I disassembled the two chandelabras in the Auditorium lobby in 2004 to send to John Moran Auctioneers, and then was a part of the team that turned the building over to Harvest Rock Church. Ronald Reagan never called anyone on the Auditorium staff "Ambassadoroids" because he never met anyone at the auditorium. If that jab came from anyone one it was Martin Bernheimer, LA Times Music Critic, who despised the church and the concerts and constantly found some fault with the auditorium/college/church in most of his music reviews. Plus, Ronald Reagan would never slur one of the major benefactors who helped build the Ronald Reagan Library in Simi Valley. Ambassador Foundation is prominent at the top of the benefactors' dedication wall.
You can find many photos of Nancy Reagan and the Little Ambassadors to Shanghai that were sponsored in Pasadena by the church. Ronald Reagan was not there for any of those performances nor for any event after them.
Well, I see that NCK, the nincompoop, made a complete ass of himself, again...who is the stupid one now?
----------------------------
What use being on this website with total nimkompoops who dont even know Governor Reagan attended concerts several times.
Know it alls NOT. STUPID
Nck
I also worked in the auditorium for many years, both as a student and a church member. President Reagan never attended a concert.
This has been so much fun watching NCK being corrected.
There goes one of my pet theories! (Drat it!) Because he has always acted as HWA's most intense hagiographer, and with obvious insider information, I had assumed he might be one of Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn's children. Perhaps not!
Mickey D
Armstrong expressly said he never met an American President, despite meeting leaders of other countries. He compared it to the biblical adage that “a prophet is not without honor, save in his own country.”
NCK don't leave us, you're our hero!
Cowboy
I will not let this go I promise. Its on paper. In 4 weeks I'll have acces to the internet again. As I am in the jungle right now.
The problem here is that your "knowledge or research" extends only to "President Reagan" as I am speaking of Governor Reagan.
Nck
I asked Ai tonight about Governor Reagan visiting Ambassador College. This is what Grok said:
Evidence does not indicate that Ronald Reagan visited Ambassador College in Pasadena.
While there are reports of him visiting the Ambassador Hotel, it is distinct from Ambassador College, which was founded by Herbert W. Armstrong and operated by the Worldwide Church of God from 1947 to 1997.
Even HWALibrary has no record of Actor/Governor or President Reagan visiting the Ambassador Auditorium. https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi
You can be guaranteed that if Reagan had been there, Herbert would have broadcast it to the church in the Plain Truth, Good News, Tomorrow World, and the Worldwide News. He would have preached endlessly in his sermons on how Ronald Reagan recognized him as a great religious leader. Nada. Zippo A big fat nothing burger.
I can't wait for more of Nck's gaslighting. We are all too stupid to understand the "truth" because he is perfect and knows everything and everyone. He needs to go work for Bob Thiel where half truths and gaslighing is a virtue.
Even if I'm right or wrong this time
You are deflecting from my main point how a divorced man who signed into law the most liberal abortion laws ever got the backing of the Christian right abd got elected Governor of California.
A lot of people were involved with that
..and later goit the actor the Presidency...
Nck
While Armstrong, like everybody else, no doubt had his sentiments when it came to earthly politics, the statements in his ratings we’re basically part of a bait-and-switch to hide his forbidding his followers from Civic Duty. It’s funny that Pat Robertson would actually send an It’s funny that Pat Robertson would actually send a letter to WCG about supporting him in his presidential run. It was that well hidden. Even today, PCG specifically hides the fact that its members don’t vote.
And here we go, just as predicted. Already gaslighting and deflecting.
Nck is a purveyor of conspiracy theories and suffers from delusions of grandeur just like Walter Mitty. He is a narcissist who wants to be recognized as important. For example, he's made claims in the past he is an attorney yet obviously from his poor grasp of spelling and grammar we all know this cannot be true. Or, if it is, he graduated from the same "university" as our friend Bob Th(d)iel! LOL. He contributes nothing of value to this blog.
Amen and amen! I am glad I am not the only one who sees through his bullsh*t.
I am glad to see that others here have recognized that Nck is a whack job.
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