Friday, April 12, 2013

Dennis On: "What's Missing From This Blog"




What's Missing From This Blog?
 
Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorSomeone finally asked me a question I have asked myself for years now and I believe it is time for a discussion on the one topic that NEVER comes up with respect to this entire WCG/CGI experience.  I was told personally that it was a miracle that  God and Jesus performed in the Church.  This by a man who I personally think would do whatever the church told him to retain his status and retirement, but that is just my view.  I responded by asking him if  God and Jesus were tricksters then after decades of praying to that same God and Jesus asking for them to "bless the work," "help me be the kind of minister I need to be,"  "Please inspire....",  and so on?  No response.   I told him it was no miracle but rather reckless change by men who were accountable to only themselves.  No response.
 
This won't take long.   Fill in the blank...
 
Herbert W Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, (WCG) Roderick C Meredith  (GCG,LCG),_______________, _____________, (___) Gerald Flurry (PCG), Robin Webber (UCG), David C Pack (RCG), and a whole bunch of others who don't matter at this point.
 
Let me give you a hint or two, though I know you know...
 
These men got a pass for their part in all the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
These men were related, something which WCG never seemed to learn the lesson of the previous two men.
 
The men got a pass for their part in all the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
These men lied, at least to me, 100% of the time to 100% of the questions I asked them about what was up.
 
These men got a pass for their part in all the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
These men and five or six Little Rascals with them live extremely well off the sale of every physical thing our Grandparents, parents, ourselves and children contributed to WCG.
 
These men got a pass for their part in all the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
Man number 2 seems pretty proud of himself for pulling this off
 
These men got a pass for their part in the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
These men were never held accountable for anything nor showed one bit of regret for jerking the rug out from under good folk and merely reinventing a very old wheel to their own satisfaction.
 
These men got a pass for their part in the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
One of these when dying is said to have said, "I have been so foolish."
 
These men got a pass for their part in the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
The other of these men still lives high off the hog, pretends to be a theologian and serves no real purpose in the new and improved WCG, but is evidently in for life by his own decree, with much gain. Is also known to have enjoyed creating cognitive dissonance and enjoys the topic
 
These men got a pass for their part in the WCG upheaval and chaos
 
Fill in the blanks
______________ and _____________
 
WHY DID THESE MEN GET A PASS FOR THEIR PART IN THE WCG UPHEAVAL AND CHAOS ?
 
WHY DO THEY STILL REAP THE PHYSICAL REWARDS OF THINGS THEY NEITHER BUILT NOR FINANACIAL SACRIFICES THEY NEVER MADE?
 
WHY DO THEY GET AN UNACCOUNTABLE PASS IN THESE MATTERS?
 

36 comments:

Anonymous said...

They have never stated that the damage done by the WCG was deliberate but that it was the unintended result of "errors" in doctrinal teachings. This is total bull #^%$#)&%#$.

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

Those two men are imperfect, just like the other men on your list, just like all men.

Every human being has some good points, and some bad points.

Thousands of people particularly those in his splinters, are thankful for GTA, despite his failings.

Thousands of people in PCG are grateful for Gerald Flurry, despite his failings.

Thousands of people in WCG/GCI are grateful for one minister or another who, despite being part of the "system" still gave them something of lasting value.

If you approach this matter as a Christian, you should be able to forgive Joe Tkach and his son, and even appreciate them for the lasting gift they gave you. Had they not changed the church, you might have stayed within comfortable boundaries and even today be teaching the same old ACOG doctrines.

On the other hand, if you approach this matter from an Eastern perspective, consider the matter of karma. Plenty of other people recognized the Tkach lies long before you did. Accountability extends to you, too. You are getting exactly what you deserved.

Speaking of accountability, do you believe that no WCG member should be thankful for your ministry? Surely you did some good for someone, somewhere. But did you ever lie? Cheat? Should your flaws disqualify you from being someone for whom another person should be thankful?

Well, if you can extend that courtesy to yourself, try doing it for the Tkaches. It feels good to forgive, let go of anger, and accept things for what they are. Trust that they will "get theirs" in the grand scheme of things -- whether in the form of karmic retribution, divine punishment, or simply going down in history as subpar intellects and submoral bullies. Clearly, at the moment, those two have an inordinate influence over your life. I hope you'll find success in letting that go, and putting into context both the good they did, and the treachery they did.

Anonymous said...

The Tkaches, though very rich, are boring because orthodox Christianity is boring.

What's exciting is the Cults - especially Armstrongism. I can't get enough of these wackos.

Anonymous said...

What would it look like for them to "not have a pass" for their part?

DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Head Usher said...

Because, Dennis, me, you, and everyone we knew were slaves. Slaves don't ask questions, we just say, yessah, and nosah.

In the first place, they were legally entitled to do so, thanks to HWA himself, and that makes things harder.

When Tkach Sr. disbanded the toothless, advisory council of elders, they all said, yessah.

When Tkach Jr. told everyone to turn on a dime and believe something else, a lot of people still said, yessah. More people than I ever would have imagined.

When they started carving everything up and selling it off, everyone just said yessah.

In short, they got a free pass because we gave it to them. Forget about whether or not they get a free pass now, that's just history.

Leonardo said...

This is one of Richard Dawkins' pet peeves, and in my view it's a legitimate one: the historical tradition of giving religion a free pass, i.e., politely never challenging the truth claims of faith-based people or organizations because, well, they're religions, and religions don't have to rigorously prove or demonstrate the validity of their many assertions, like science has to, or the rest of society does in the wider "market of ideas." If I'm a true believer and I dogmatically claim something based on faith, then I can expect no challenge, it's all part of the social "understanding." At least that's the way it's been. But that is rapidly changing. We live in a different world now, and evidence is required for live-altering claims that presume to represent God, or the Infinite Mind, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or my invisible rainbow-colored unicorn or whatever else such claims are based in. That's why we're currently seeing Christian apologists having to scramble around throwing out one argument after another in their attempt to keep up with the demands of reason. They realize they can no longer just apprehend, torture and kill those who ask challenging questions anymore, at least in the Western world they can't. Now Islam-dominated countries, that's a different story! Those not willing to kowtow to the faith claims of Islam may very easily end up losing everything from the neck up!

casper said...

Dennis, it almost seems that you would be happier if the Tkach's never came along and we were still strong believers in the HWA world. Not me, I left before, shortly after GTA was exposed, so things weren't perfect then either. Then HWA changed the divorce rules to accommodate himself (like Henry VIII). So if Tkach hadn't come along do you think everything would still be humming along? What about the failed apocalyptic claims, well they could still happen of course for our children and grandchildren.

Didn't Tkach do everyone a favor by exposing things and making people think that HWA wasn't the total truth? Many people were freed by this, freed to recapture their minds and decide for themselves what to believe. Isn't this a good result? Maybe one not intended by Tkach - the dismantling of an empire. Would everyone still be paying tithes to the Armstrong empire if he hadn't come along? I wish it had happened much much earlier. I must add I don't believe what Tkach pushed either.

Joe Moeller said...

I find it very surprising how little that the Tkachs get scrutinized on this blog.

Joe Sr. had his well known sexual hangups. Both Jr. and Sr. were horrific liars and manipulators. Junior now sits on a stash of well over $100 million dollars from the sale of assets, and can dole out over 4 million a year to himself and few of his loyal college buddies for the rest of their lives.

Junior's qualification to take over this empire was .... what? Being Seniors seed? Right or wrong, how much was Junior responsible for building anything? Yet he lives off the blood, sweat and tears of those he despises , who gave to a wholly different cause.

It is unethical and EVIL that Tkach thrives off the millions of dollars of others. If he was "Transformed by Truth" , then he would refund the money in some form of "Pro Rata" , or at least fulfill his promises to former employees and ministers for retirements etc.

Local WCG churches today are cut off from aid, and they too were promised buildings, or at least local regional megacenters to meet at. I vividly remember the mockup pictures of such in the Worldwide News.
WELL?-- Where the hell are they?

WCG congregations, to this day are still in crappy rented halls.

Junior publicly promised and also wrote to hold elections, and to "step down" from his role as dictator. Well... here it is , pushing some 20 years later, and the little ass is still there at the unaccountable reigns, along with his dummy board.

Tammy Tkach, runs around and gives her little seminars about the country. WHO THE HECK IS SHE? Why does anyone want to hear what she has to say? What has she accomplished in life other than having spread her legs for the right guy? She gets supported in style by STOLEN FUNDS. Plain and simple as that. A modern day Jezebel.

The Armstrongs have a lot to be accountable for. However, IMHO, the Tkachs are just as accountable and more so.

I find forums like this and the people who read them to be way over focused on the Armstrongs and not the Tkachs, which is a CURRENT ongoing live concern.

I have a theory as to why. In history, charismatic and flamboyant bad guys get a lot more attention and press than dull and drab psychopaths. For example, there are lots of shows on TV about Hitler and the Third Reich and not so many about Stalin or Mao.

Hitler had some style, the uniforms were classic, and they had great filmmakers document them. Stalin always appeared uncomfortable , Mao looked like a little fat chinese man, and their choreographers just werent that good. Thus, Hitler goes down as a hated and fascinating figure , and Stalin and Mao as also rans and not discussed nearly as much today. This in SPITE of the fact that Stalin and Mao killed TENS OF MILLIONS of people, and MANY of their own countrymen!

The Tkach's had neither the looks, or charisma as either of the Armstrongs, nor the speaking ability. Lets face it, the Armstrongs projected a heck of alot more "sexiness" and lifestyle. For that reason, they generate way more envy and loathing, and prurient interest on these blogs.

Another factor is longevity. Most of us lived under the Armstrong reign for decades. Suffering under the Tkaches was limited to just a short number of years in the early 1990s. Thus the mental impact of the Armstrongs has greater weight.

Certainly it can also be argued that the Armstrong empire deserved a Tkach, as it was the one that spawned it, and HWA himself was the one who crowned him. So many here view the Tkach's as some weird form of poetic justice.

One reporters opinion.

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Leonardo said...

Casper wrote: "Didn't Tkach do everyone a favor by exposing things and making people think that HWA wasn't the total truth? Many people were freed by this, freed to recapture their minds and decide for themselves what to believe. Isn't this a good result? Maybe one not intended by Tkach - the dismantling of an empire. Would everyone still be paying tithes to the Armstrong empire if he hadn't come along?"


You know, that's probably like asking if we'd all still be believing in heliocentricism if Copernicus and Galileo hadn't been born. Incorrect views just have a certain shelf-life inherent within them because they're wrong. Armstrongism, just like heliocentricism, was simply not true. Period. And both of them would eventually have been called out for what they were even if Galileo or the Tkach's had never been born. Remnants of Armstrongism will stick around though, just like 23% of the American population still believe the sun orbits around the earth. The reason? Raw and blatant ignorance of the facts.

Further, if the Tkach's had not come along, the WCG would have had another high drama meltdown, you can bet on it, because such groups thrive on such folly. It keeps everyone excited, and all part of the larger cosmic melodrama they proclaim is going on here below.

Leonardo said...

I'd agree with Joe Moeller - HWA and GTA had "the goods" so too speak, far more than the Tkach's ever did. For lack of a better term, let's just call it charisma - a kind of star appeal that some have and most don't. Plus, they inspired and operated a far more impressive public relations campaign that was built into the WCG from what, about the mid '60's or so: slick color magazines, booklets, brochures, radio shows, TV broadcasts, nice campus, etc.

The Tkach's simply inherited a horse that was just too big and frisky for them to ride on, especially Joe Sr. His appointment to succeed HWA just revealed HWA's utter inability to accurately read people's true capacities and intentions. Joe Jr. and Tammy are just riding on what's left of the wave that was created long before their time, they just happened along at the right time and place, and viola, "It's summertime and the livin' is easy!"

casper said...

Interesting, I am not very familiar with the Tkach era, being as I had already exited long before. I wonder if there is any way some sort of legal action could be brought against the current Tkach if he is sitting on that much money, and perhaps it could be distributed more equally.

I do remember the younger Tkach from his college days. Actually he had already graduated when I met him, and he seemed to be just sitting around in Pasadena. It seems he wasn't scooped up for the ministry or anything at this point, and his father was only a minor minister. I even went on a date with him and he didn't strike me as being a real strong believer at all and he seemed somewhat depressed. I remember him as being good looking too, now I see he is overweight, bald and buggy eyed like his dad, how sad, but then he's got all that money.....well all I can say is money don't make you happy, and remember the parable of the camel and the eye of the needle haha.

Anonymous said...

Anon April 12, 2013 at 4:10 AM, your points are excellent. In other words we all have failings and to criticize another human being for their failings implies the one doing the criticizing is a hypocrite. The old saying people in glass houses should not throw stones is relevant here. I have fallen into that trap sometimes. I'm human. I'm learning to better myself. Imagine how much better the world would be if we all adopted this process of development.

Anonymous said...

Leonard, you are a laugh sometimes. You stated "This is one of Richard Dawkins' pet peeves, and in my view it's a legitimate one: the historical tradition of giving religion a free pass, i.e., politely never challenging the truth claims of faith-based people or organizations because, well, they're religions, and religions don't have to rigorously prove or demonstrate the validity of their many assertions, like science has to, or the rest of society does in the wider "market of ideas." I laugh at people like Dawkins who believes via faith and nothing else that everything came form nothing spontaneously, and that life came from non-life spontaneously. LOL. The lack of science from the atheists like him and yourself just demonstrates you follow a different religion, one that has even less evidence than even the cults like the COGs. In other words, atheism is the biggest cult of all.

Leonardo said...

Anonymous 2:05, your above comment simply proves what an ignorant fool you are. Sorry, but it does. Dawkins doesn't arrive at his conclusions by faith. I don't agree with many of his conclusions, but at least I know faith isn't involved in the process. This is something you ardent theists keep saying over and over again, yet with no backing whatsoever. Very typical of people like you - "It's true just because I SAY it's true." Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, Anon. As far as "something from nothing" you should have followed the fairly in-depth discussion on this very issue I had with A. Boocher on this subject. If you were actually informed on the latest developments in astrophysics you wouldn't make such a stupid statement. Read A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING by Dr. Lawrence Krauss. The thing is about folks like you, you are so incredibly intellectually lazy and as a result terribly uninformed, and yet you make statements as if you actually knew what you were talking about. Like I keep telling Plasma Dude, read a few books relevant to the topics you wish to discuss, then come back here and make some statements that actually make a little sense. As it is, your above comment is nothing more than the dogmatic rantings of a theistic fool.

Anonymous said...

This is WAY off topic, but is really bothering me. The signs of a soon-coming global financial and commercial systemic collapse are overwhelming. Much of what used to be ascribed to fringy conspiracy theorists has come true. Herb the Perv forecast the end of the current age or era, although early on he expected the 2nd coming to occur in the 1930s. Even if this present system implodes in the 2010s (and things seem to be unraveling right now), I won't give the psychopath any credit, given his 200 or so failed prophecies and all of his many other false teachings. I've come to believe that if there is a latter-day Babylon the Great, its identity is probably the USA! I'd welcome anyone's comments on the subject. Best Regards, Monnie

Velvet said...

You honestly think they got a pass, Dennis? Senior died after a very short and very brutal illness, discovered only upon routine gallbladder surgery

Mikey Weazell had to retire a couple of years ago for health reasons due to stress which he has apparently battled for years (I wonder why).

Junior's letters and videos are nothing short of comedy material and/or bathroom break opportunities when they're played or read in services (which is NOT very often at all). And that's just in THIS world.

Junior's day will come. As will all of ours, but I do believe (even if you don't) that God hears the cries of the wounded of heart (including yours), and the cries of the oppressed, and He will answer them in due time, with due justice, for the willful pain and suffering they have caused.

The more Junior heaps upon his own head, the larger his reward will be. He's not afraid of that, but that's because he no longer worships the living God. ("It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.")

Nebuchadnezzar may have been acting on God's will (bringing the people into captivity for their sins and idolatries), but he was most certainly held accountable, when the captivity to the Babylonians was finally ended!

Velvet said...

"Thousands of people in WCG/GCI are grateful for one minister or another who, despite being part of the "system" still gave them something of lasting value."

And those "thousands of people" are idol-worshippers and following men. Which is idolatry. Though I know of at least one Evangelical in the Church who refers to Junior as the Saviour of the Church, instead of Jesus. Which speaks for itself.

Velvet said...

"What set me off on this topic was being told Joe Jr has a penchant for Rolexes."

That doesn't surprise me, the missus is on record as having bragged about her Mustang (and then lying to try and cover up her prideful boasting).

The irony there is Junior turns around and writes garbage like a letter that was read last year (which I now cannot find on the website) that had a laundry list of brand names/expensive money items in it that the poor member reading the letter didn't even know how to pronounce! Junior's gist was that people shouldn't obsess over these things, which was hilariously ironic, because he's the only one who knows what those things are.

Which speaks for itself. I may notice these things, and remark upon them, but the way I look at it, they're digging themselves in further, and refuse to listen to any warnings that they are doing so. The more they pile up the burning coals on their own heads, the more "richly" (ha ha) they will be truly rewarded for their works.

Velvet said...

"Local WCG churches today are cut off from aid, and they too were promised buildings, or at least local regional megacenters to meet at. I vividly remember the mockup pictures of such in the Worldwide News.
WELL?-- Where the hell are they?

WCG congregations, to this day are still in crappy rented halls."

Er, some of us do still believe we are not meant to meet in permanent buildings that the Church owns, you know. Even some Evangelicals I've spoken with believe that, and see the permanent church buildings as a Very Bad Idea.

Velvet said...

"A modern day Jezebel."

Whose story didn't turn out all that well, either, you realize? Tammy thinks she can get away with blatantly lying about the fact that she bragged about her Mustang, but if she deletes the post content (without removing the actual post itself, leaving the timestamp intact), her magic!idol!Jebus will just make her sins go away, without her having to actually repent of, or turn away, from them.

Yeah, the original Jezebel didn't fare too well in that situation, either. Read the book if you don't believe me. The (dis)honourable mention Jezebel gets in Revelation also applies.

Which has nothing to do with any of us; God will exact His penalties from them for their works. And, given the rottenness of their fruits, I would say that penalty is going to be very steep, indeed.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Standing ovation Joe Moeller! Your post should be re-printed and published else where. I particularly liked the comment about Tammy Tkach spreading her legs for the right guy - IT's THE PLAIN TRUTH:

"Tammy Tkach, runs around and gives her little seminars about the country. WHO THE HECK IS SHE? Why does anyone want to hear what she has to say? What has she accomplished in life other than having spread her legs for the right guy? She gets supported in style by STOLEN FUNDS. Plain and simple as that. A modern day Jezebel".

I love it! Great post.

Richard

Anonymous said...

So Denny would it make you feel better if you knew that these criminals were going to suffer for the incalculable pain they've inflicted on you and others (e.g. emotional, financial, spiritual, sexual, etc.)? I ask because I don't think this kind of attitude is in the long-term very healthy for anyone to have. And it can be extremely toxic to you as a victim and those around you who love and support you. What I'm trying to get at is that as a Christian my role isn't to be judge, jury and executioner. I'm not saying that if a loved one was injured, robbed, raped or murdered that it wouldn't be natural for you to want justice to be meted out. But, we all think, say and do stupid and idiotic things that ultimately end up hurting others or ourselves. What's important to God is what is in the heart. And since only God can read another person's heart shouldn't we leave the fate of such men up to Him? A wise woman once expressed to me a love that I'm still trying to emulate. She said, "I don't want any man, woman or child to be thrown into the lake of fire. Do you?" For a victim of crime it might be easy to answer in the affirmative, but in truth we're all victims of the arch-enemy. And if you fail to see this you fail to see a big part of picture. I don't believe that this life is all there is. And I refuse to believe that the lessons we learn along the way, the mistakes we make that hurt those we love and we regret doing, wishing for a do over means nothing to God Almighty. One of the beliefs that attracted me to the WCG was the doctrine concerning the second resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment. I don't believe in the traditional view of Christianity that the saved go to heaven and the lost go to hell. And I'm delving deeper into Christian Universalism since my understanding is if the Lord Jesus Christ has truly defeated the devil and death through His own death and resurrection then surely He will, in His own time and way, grant an opportunity for salvation to everyone who has ever been conceived and died (1 Cor 15:22). He isn't limited to time and space like we are. And if He is pure LOVE (1 Jn 4:18) and it's true that nothing is impossible for Him then who can stop Him who knows and does what is always RIGHTEOUS (Gen 18:25). Hard as it might be, but as Christians we are to reflect His Love in our own lives, which means loving and forgiving even our enemies and those who hurt us as Christ Jesus Himself did.

Wallace said...

In response to Monnie I don't believe HWA had a monopoly on Bible prophecy as you note he made over 200 failed predictions so he definitely wasn't a prophet by any means. But, re the USA being Babylon I don't subscribe to that interpretation. I think seeing the manifestations of the beast empire has historically centered in Europe then that's where we'll see the final fulfillment too. What role the USA will play I really don't know, but I wonder if, like the UK at present, it'll be either an ally of the beast empire; or perhaps a satellite state; or an enemy nation that'll come under occupation like Vichy France in WW2? The main thing though is when it arrives along with the beast dictator, 10 deputy leaders and the false prophet you reject them, the mark of the beast--whatever that is--and the entire antichristian and lawless way of life--or death!--they represent.

Leonardo said...

Wallace wrote: "I think seeing the manifestations of the beast empire has historically centered in Europe then that's where we'll see the final fulfillment too."

But how do you know there will be any "final fulfillment"? What's your evidence for this?

Anonymous said...

Herbie taught that the nations of latter-day Israel---USA, UK, Canada, & Australia mostly---would suffer unimaginable death & destruction, so severe that by the time Armageddon was over only 10% of their populace would remain alive. It's clear that the global financial network teeters on the edge of collapse, which is often referred to as a "reset". I've never seen a comment on any of these blogs---Banned, Silenced , or Exit Support Network---addressing the current reality that we're on a path toward collapse. As a long-time fellow sufferer under Herbie's crazy making religious confusion, I certainly understand cult fatigue. However, ignoring reality won't make it go away. I'm trying to come to grips with the painful reality of this onrushing disaster, and I know I'm not alone in this regard. Monnie

Velvet said...

Never mind the prophecy madness for the Middle East, Europe, financial disaster, etc., what's REALLY escaping everyone's notice (both the splinter groups' and the secular world's) is the fact that the Nazis are making a slow but steady comeback...aided and abetted by the very same Evangelicals that Junior has thrown his lot in with. (Not to mention some of the anti-Semitic garbage "replacement theology" nonsense preached by some ministers in the Church.)

Anonymous said...

"...Nazis are making a slow but steady comeback..."

ERMAHGERD! Nert ther Nertzers!

And what, if we don't stop them now, everyone will be fooled into goosestepping, zeigheiling, and worshipping Hitler? What, do they have some high-tech mind-control devices? Or is it simply the power of satan to "deceive the whole world"? Mm-hmm. Aided and abetted by the vast right-wing Evangelical conspiracy?

Seriously Velvet? Where do you come up with this garbage? I'm starting to wonder if Plasma Dude isn't your sock puppet.

Velvet said...

LOL, Anon, rest assured, I personally believe it will take the Nazis at LEAST a hundred years to get back to the same levels of power and influence they had under Hitler. So, no, I am not some wild-eyed prophecy nut going IT'S TEOTWAKI. But the Nazis and other far-right extremist political parties ARE becoming more extant throughout the world; that isn't some Biblical prediction, it's actually been noted in European news media.

Anonymous said...

Velvet, 100 years is a long time, things can happen quite quickly where humans are concerned. You're just stuck on your own idea of a time frame. Well I hate to tell you but you are wrong too, and I am sure none of us will be around to find out if you were right anyway -- unless of course science discovers the secrets to prolonging life.....

And then whichever anonymous posted about Herbies claims for latter day Israel.....hasn't DNA proved that we aren't Jews/Israel after all. From my understanding the only way to make Britain and America etc., Israel, is to say that the Jews in todays world are not Jews at all but Hammites or something -- I have heard this explanation. Once you remove the identity of Israel from these prophecies the whole house of cards falls down.

Yes there are shocking things occurring in the world, but during my lifetime (a long time) this has always being the case.

Anonymous said...

Yes, shocking things have always happened, but the world's system of commerce and finance has never been this fragile, interconnected, and all based on a Ponzi. Most of this has developed since Herbie's death, and those inside who're telling us that this house of cards is about to implode are not religious nutters with an agenda. There IS a conspiracy to implement a New World Order, and the elites who're doing it are increasingly open & public about it. I despise both U.S. political parties, but Obama's presence in power is a large element in this drive for a global government, which is intended to be a new age of feudalism with a small group at the top and a few hundred million serfs supporting them. Monnie

Velvet said...

"You're just stuck on your own idea of a time frame."

Pretty sure I said "at least" and I have stated many times here before (apparently I have to add this disclaimer to every comment I make, because people either keep forgetting it, or choose to conveniently ignore it, favouring far more the false dartboard-target picture of me they have in their heads) that I might very well be wrong, and that I think the Church WAS wrong in focusing so much on prophecy.

Wallace said...

Monnie wrote: "..As a long-time fellow sufferer under Herbie's crazy making religious confusion, I certainly understand cult fatigue. However, ignoring reality won't make it go away. I'm trying to come to grips with the painful reality of this onrushing disaster, and I know I'm not alone in this regard..."

Dear Monnie, I don't disagree with your concern at all at the prospect of a future global financial collapse considering what happened in the US in 2008 with the GFC and what's still ongoing in Europe over the Euro debt crisis. Whether such an event or a series of simultaneous events (e.g. terrorist attacks, financial collapse, etc.) is going to lead to the rise of the beast and false prophet I cannot say for sure. And in my opinion it's nothing, but futile to be overly preoccupied about such. Didn't Christ Jesus instruct His followers not to worry (Mt 6:25-27)? And didn't He basically tell them, "Stop worrying, you don't need to know about what's going to happen as our Father has a plan and He'll see it through in His time" (Acts 1:7)?

And, as you noted, HWA didn't "corner the market" when it came to understanding Bible prophecy anymore than Grant R Jeffrey or Perry Stone for instance! His entire BI-based prophetic timeline was far from accurate again and again and again!

So I think what's important is just focusing on doing what you can to help those around you instead of getting taken in by Armstrongism's scaremongering and fear-driven take on current affairs (or other conspiracy theory alarmist views). I wish someone had've spent just 5 minutes of their day to just sit me down and get into my noggin for just a moment to see what naive and unrealistic notions I had about the world we lived in to explain to me that thinking that the end of the world is going to happen in the next 5, 10, 15 years or your lifetime isn't very positive or productive at all! So re-frame your life around what matters most to you and everyone else really, that is, your relationships with your family and friends, working hard in your own career, volunteer to help those disadvantaged in your local community, and ultimately getting married and settling down raising a family of your own. If someone would've helped me see this I wouldn't be the washout that I feel I am today. Remember when the Jews were taken into Babylonian captivity? What did Jeremiah the prophet instruct them? Unlike the false prophets who were predicting an end to the Babylonian empire within a few years Jeremiah, who was trying to get his fellow countrymen to see that it was going to last a long time and their nation and monarchy didn't have to end with its rise, wrote to the exiles thus: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper” (Jer 29:5-7). So until we see the beast and false prophet rise along with the two witnesses (which could be 50, 100 or 500 years away for all I know!) I'd suggest we carry on likewise.

Anonymous said...

Joe Moeller writes, "I find forums like this and the people who read them to be way over focused on the Armstrongs and not the Tkachs, which is a CURRENT ongoing live concern. I have a theory as to why. In history, charismatic and flamboyant bad guys get a lot more attention and press than dull and drab psychopaths."

I'm finding some agreement with you here, Joe.

For instance-
Clearly, Herbert Armstrong caused WAY more death and destruction than Charles Manson ever did.

But, because the story of psychopath Herbert is more drab than the story of psychopath Charles, it got much less attention in the press.

Charles Manson got a lot more attention in the press because he was a "spicier" psychopath.

-Norm



Velvet said...

" Remember when the Jews were taken into Babylonian captivity? What did Jeremiah the prophet instruct them? Unlike the false prophets who were predicting an end to the Babylonian empire within a few years Jeremiah, who was trying to get his fellow countrymen to see that it was going to last a long time and their nation and monarchy didn't have to end with its rise, wrote to the exiles thus: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper” (Jer 29:5-7)"

I agree 100% with this, in fact, it was the same understanding I reached (independently of any "preacher") a couple of years ago, myself.