Musings...

As far as I can tell, those who have been able to break free from the original Worldwide Church of God and subsequently all those splits (UCG,GCI), splinters (LCG) and slivers (PCG, RCG and way down the line CCG) , are the only people who have actually grown in the graciousness and knowledge that was always emphasized that we had to grow in. You certainly don't see it in any of the leadership and congregations we tend to examine here on Banned.

We later came to realize that the Grace and Knowledge was that according to others view of it all and not allowed to be something of our own realizations and homework.  You grow as you are told to grow and the knowledge you grow in must be approved from above.

Mostly now the various COG Grand Masters simple are caught up in "Crowing and Over-gumming", if you get my drift.  David C. Pack is master of the crowing and over-gumming concept.

I'd like to think that most of us here at BannedHWA are here because we care and are concerned about the spiritual, emotional and even physical well being of those still trapped by their own fear, guilt and shame abundantly stoked by their theological leaders, falsely so called.

The bottom line seems to be that we'd like those beginning to react to the feeling in their stomachs to realize that is what is really true as to what the reasonings in one's heads might be as they are pummeled every week in church with the latest shoulds, must nots and you better realize this, messages.

Here are a few things I believe we'd all like those questioning their involvement and place in any COG congregation, watching their own particular three ring circus unfold to realize or make real in their thinking.

Your minister is not really a type of any Moses, Joshua, Zerubbabel or spoken of in the scriptures Old or New. That's simply crazy and delusional thinking with religious content. 

Your minister is not one, both or supervisor of the Two Witnesses of Revelation who will work a marvelous work in your day that you won't believe.

In time, you won't believe you fell for that.

There can't be 300+++ Splintered One True Church

Your minister's approach to Bible Study of "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," is called proof texting and by it all manner of mischief can be conceived of and shows he can't  even accept the fact that Isaiah 28:9-10 , in context, promotes no such cut and paste method of drawing proper conclusions

Narcissistic men, in positions of leadership, can well hide in a church environment because their illness looks like a weird form of obedience, dedication and sincerity.

Organizations are full of lessor yes men and women who don't and won't protect you from what they suspect is so themselves, if they have a position and enjoy wielding fake authority.

All of these men will grow old and die with nothing of what they predict or fashion themselves to be ever remotely comes to pass

Properties purchased and colleges built with your tithes and offerings  plainly show your leader doesn't believe his own press about "time is short".

These same properties, in time, will be sold to others to use for the exact opposite purpose you thought you supported them for in the first place.

If you can step back a bit and admit your doubts you'll end up wondering "what was I thinking?"

Dreams do not a theologian make

"And yes brethren, I am an Apostle" also does not an Apostle make

"God knows that 'that man'...." always means "ME" when the minister is letting you in on his ill drawn conclusions about himself easily

"But I'll save that for next week" always means "Please don't leave the church"

Too many words and phrases in a sermon like, "overarching", "Awesome", "Never before understood", "I never realized this until writing this sermon", "Will leave you gyrating in your seats", "Will stun you' and "I don't think I have ever given a sermon quite like this one" and so on simply means, "I'll keep you praying,  obeying, paying and staying anyway I can".

...and so on. You know it when you hear it.

We are a mixed group here having come out of the homogenized environment of the Worldwide Church of God.  Good for us.  We're not evil. We're not scoffers (Noticing is not scoffing. Scoffing is what those not wishing to be called out on their abuses call noticing.)  We are ok to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming" because , well...it's been 2000 years and that's not our common view of "things which must shortly come to pass', and "behold I come quickly."

No one is going to any ever burning or burn you up Lake of Fire for not belonging to this or that True Church of God and it's ok to each have our own unique experience and outcomes with the Worldwide Church of God, the Armstrongs, Tkaches and all those that followed.  We all process our shortcomings, experiences, perceptions and lessons learned differently.  

If everyone who participates here on Banned got together for a pot luck, with the singles bringing the watermelon of course, it would be one amazing night out!

The Platitudinous Mantle Role of Bob Thiel, Dibar Apartian, and Rod Meredith

 

A comment on Will "Thinking" Land You In Hot Water With Your Church?

Folks, here is a "mantle dream" B. Thiel posts he dreamt in '08 or '09 about who was/is/might be/might have been "the mantle" rather than who was or is the leader at a given time in the once "righteous", "pure", apple-of-God's-eye, "Philadelphian", LCG (before they became the "now Laodicean" LCG)⏳ :

"But before I get to that, let me relate a dream that probably happened in 2008 or 2009." <--(which is while Dibar Apartian was still alive, not passing away till Dec. 8 2010).

"I was about 50 at the time (which essentially makes me an ‘old man’ per Numbers 8:25; cf. John 8:57). At first the dream made little sense".

"In my dream, there seemed to be two parallel lines. The then presiding evangelist of the Living Church of God (LCG) Roderick Meredith was on the top line and I was on the line much below. In the dream, I kept calling up to Dr. Meredith, but he never would respond." <--(if this dream was in '08 or '09 while Mr. Dibar Apartian was alive till Dec. 2010, then wouldn't God likely have considered maybe showing in that dream a 3rd "parallel line" for Dibar Apartian during the RCM/B. Thiel parallel lines rising/lowering/intersecting scenario...thereby helping B. Thiel (& us) clarify what mantle role Mr. Apartian sort of "secretly" held, despite all the LCG doormat loyalists adhering to Rod Meredith's bloated mantle role which was soon to be humanly decided on being disregarded & discarded i.e. formation of CCOG?). 

"This lack of response made no sense to me during the dream. Then after what seemed to be a long time, the lines crossed with his line dropping and my line going up." <--what line or position might "secret" mantle Dibar Apartian have had somewhere in that dream...did the lines cross onto Dibar somewhere, or ONLY ONTO Bob's "super" line 📏📐.

If Bob can humanly decide when or when not to stay loyal to or to discount Rod Meredith's (or even years prior with Tkach Sr.'s) hierarchical "mantle", then why did or does Bob & the doormat folk place such high regard on adhering to all these hierachical top leaders that eventually become disregarded & dismissed from hierarchy anyway? 

Bob got "the mantle" from a place (LCG) which likely was NEVER the mantle itself. Why didn't Gaylyn Bonjour practice COG separately from LCG before participating in a "mantle transfer" from LCG to CCOG? If Mr. Bonjour were to "forsake assembling together" with the increasingly corrupt LCG, wouldn't he have then been actually suitable to participate in a mantle transfer?

"On October 3, 2008 when Dr. Roderick C. Meredith (Presiding Evangelist of the Living Church of God) called me and said to me, “God may consider you to be a prophet.” Dr . Meredith and I discussed this in depth as Dr. Meredith was the one who brought the topic up."<--who cares what a bumbling Rod Meredith thinks he assumes to know about what God may or may not be considering? 

"The conversation with Dr. Meredith weighed on my mind, so I asked Dibar Apartian (who was the Feast site coordinator) and Dr. Jeff Fall (who was my pastor then, and who also attended there that year) to meet with me before services one morning. I told both of them about the conversation with Dr. Meredith.

Upon hearing this, Dibar Apartian got upset. He told me that Dr. Meredith did not say such a thing and I assured him that he had.<--HEY, who cares what Rod Meredith non-mantle said? 

Why did Bob ever follow Rod M. in the 1st place? Why does Bob expect us to count it as credit that he "trusted" & had "faith in" the curmudgeon bully Rod C. Meredith? When Bob still harps on us to follow his mantle role now, why did Bob get to prove all things regarding J. Tkach Sr. & later, R. Meredith? But if we try to prove all things too such as this Dibar Apartian secret mantle stuff (with RCM still at times supposedly commanding hierarchical church governance allegiance/faith loyalty), suddenly we are an accuser of the brethren, but Bob wasn't?

Proof Texting One's Way to Truth

I'm sure we all recall many a sermon and sermonette on just HOW the Bible is to be studied and understood.

Isaiah 28: 

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people

As a result, sermons tended and still do tend towards marathon races through the Bible, hopping from  one similar scripture to another, weaving a tale of continuity leading to foregone conclusions.  It's how and why one can say you can prove anything you want with this method of Bible study and sermon presentation. 

 I often ended up with long lists of scriptures for notes, with no commentary on how or why they were all connected.  In fact, they mostly weren't really connected or if they were I had lost the why they were long ago.  It made throwing old "sermon notes" easy.  They made no sense twenty minutes after the sermon and I have to say I never went back a second time to read my notes.  In hindsight I took notes because I was supposed to.  I also marked Bible's margins up with correlating scriptures to go to to explain, clarify or prove the previous one was on the right path to truth.  It was more difficult for me to create "inspired margins" with my tiny marking pen during sermons because, growing up Presbyterian, marking a Bible was a bound for Hell offense.  It took me a few weeks but then soon had one of the best inspired margined up Bibles on campus.  

Full Circle in the Portland Library

I have figured out, however, how to study Mystery of the Ages

Let's take a look at what Isaiah 28 really means and it has NOTHING to do with how to study the Bible and the next time it comes up, you'll be armed for a nice rebuttal.

New International Version

Woe to the Leaders of Ephraim and Judah

1Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,

to the fading flower, his glorious beauty,

set on the head of a fertile valley—

to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine!

2See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong.

Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind,

like a driving rain and a flooding downpour,

he will throw it forcefully to the ground.

3That wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,

will be trampled underfoot.

4That fading flower, his glorious beauty,

set on the head of a fertile valley,

will be like figs ripe before harvest—

as soon as people see them and take them in hand,

they swallow them.

Translation:  YHVH is really angry with the Tribe of Ephraim

5In that day the Lord Almighty

will be a glorious crown,

a beautiful wreath

for the remnant of his people.

6He will be a spirit of justice

to the one who sits in judgment,

a source of strength

to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

Translation:  But not forever and it will all work out someday

7And these also stagger from wine

and reel from beer:

Priests and prophets stagger from beer

and are befuddled with wine;

they reel from beer,

they stagger when seeing visions,

they stumble when rendering decisions.

8All the tables are covered with vomit

and there is not a spot without filth.

Translation:  Your Priests are a bunch of beer guzzling, wine chugging dolts who can't think, see drunken visions, muck up decisions and puke all over the place too often.

9“Who is it he is trying to teach?

To whom is he explaining his message?

To children weaned from their milk,

to those just taken from the breast?

Translation:  Who are these guys trying to kid. Who do they think they are teaching...mere babies and children?

10For it is:

Do this, do that,

a rule for this, a rule for that^a ;

a little here, a little there.”

Translation: For these drunks say, do this, do that, follow this rule, follow that rule, a little bit of this, a little bit of that...blah blah blah blah blah....

11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues

God will speak to this people,

12to whom he said,

“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;

and, “This is the place of repose”—

but they would not listen.

13So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:

Do this, do that,

a rule for this, a rule for that;

a little here, a little there—

Translation:  Fine, that's the way you want it? It could have been nice and you could have rest, but if this is the way you want it. You want to talk strange and babble at the people?  Then I'll send some folks your way that will talk strange and babble to you.  I can play "blah blah blah blah blah" with you just as you play it with the people.

so that as they go they will fall backward;"

Translation:  So you'll fall flat on your asses and it will hurt as you are caught and taken away.

No magic formula on how to study the Bible here!  So next time you hear "for it is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" quoted  as the way to find the hidden mysteries and doctrines of the Bible, realize the minister is quoting beer sodden, wine loopy, table puking priests who can't make their own words make sense to the people and thus God will repay them unkindly in kind with his own version of "So you want blah blah blah blah blah...?  Well here it comes in the form of an equally strange speaking foreign  people  that are going to sweep you away.

Now...let's all take our hymnals and rise....