A comment on Will "Thinking" Land You In Hot Water With Your Church?
Folks, here is a "mantle dream" B. Thiel posts he dreamt in '08 or '09 about who was/is/might be/might have been "the mantle" rather than who was or is the leader at a given time in the once "righteous", "pure", apple-of-God's-eye, "Philadelphian", LCG (before they became the "now Laodicean" LCG)⏳ :
"But before I get to that, let me relate a dream that probably happened in 2008 or 2009." <--(which is while Dibar Apartian was still alive, not passing away till Dec. 8 2010).
"I was about 50 at the time (which essentially makes me an ‘old man’ per Numbers 8:25; cf. John 8:57). At first the dream made little sense".
"In my dream, there seemed to be two parallel lines. The then presiding evangelist of the Living Church of God (LCG) Roderick Meredith was on the top line and I was on the line much below. In the dream, I kept calling up to Dr. Meredith, but he never would respond." <--(if this dream was in '08 or '09 while Mr. Dibar Apartian was alive till Dec. 2010, then wouldn't God likely have considered maybe showing in that dream a 3rd "parallel line" for Dibar Apartian during the RCM/B. Thiel parallel lines rising/lowering/intersecting scenario...thereby helping B. Thiel (& us) clarify what mantle role Mr. Apartian sort of "secretly" held, despite all the LCG doormat loyalists adhering to Rod Meredith's bloated mantle role which was soon to be humanly decided on being disregarded & discarded i.e. formation of CCOG?).
"This lack of response made no sense to me during the dream. Then after what seemed to be a long time, the lines crossed with his line dropping and my line going up." <--what line or position might "secret" mantle Dibar Apartian have had somewhere in that dream...did the lines cross onto Dibar somewhere, or ONLY ONTO Bob's "super" line 📏📐.
If Bob can humanly decide when or when not to stay loyal to or to discount Rod Meredith's (or even years prior with Tkach Sr.'s) hierarchical "mantle", then why did or does Bob & the doormat folk place such high regard on adhering to all these hierachical top leaders that eventually become disregarded & dismissed from hierarchy anyway?
Bob got "the mantle" from a place (LCG) which likely was NEVER the mantle itself. Why didn't Gaylyn Bonjour practice COG separately from LCG before participating in a "mantle transfer" from LCG to CCOG? If Mr. Bonjour were to "forsake assembling together" with the increasingly corrupt LCG, wouldn't he have then been actually suitable to participate in a mantle transfer?
"On October 3, 2008 when Dr. Roderick C. Meredith (Presiding Evangelist of the Living Church of God) called me and said to me, “God may consider you to be a prophet.” Dr . Meredith and I discussed this in depth as Dr. Meredith was the one who brought the topic up."<--who cares what a bumbling Rod Meredith thinks he assumes to know about what God may or may not be considering?
"The conversation with Dr. Meredith weighed on my mind, so I asked Dibar Apartian (who was the Feast site coordinator) and Dr. Jeff Fall (who was my pastor then, and who also attended there that year) to meet with me before services one morning. I told both of them about the conversation with Dr. Meredith.
Upon hearing this, Dibar Apartian got upset. He told me that Dr. Meredith did not say such a thing and I assured him that he had.<--HEY, who cares what Rod Meredith non-mantle said?
Why did Bob ever follow Rod M. in the 1st place? Why does Bob expect us to count it as credit that he "trusted" & had "faith in" the curmudgeon bully Rod C. Meredith? When Bob still harps on us to follow his mantle role now, why did Bob get to prove all things regarding J. Tkach Sr. & later, R. Meredith? But if we try to prove all things too such as this Dibar Apartian secret mantle stuff (with RCM still at times supposedly commanding hierarchical church governance allegiance/faith loyalty), suddenly we are an accuser of the brethren, but Bob wasn't?
12 comments:
Why didn't Bob trust/obey the possibly "true" mantle (Dibar) instead of blindly sticking to the old loyalty doormat concept in COG of following the top down hierarchy, obeying whatever human leader is publicly/legally/officially posted as that time's current Moses-style church top leader? Bob & Rod & Ames & Global surely disregarded Tkach Sr.'s top down mantle "hierarchy" that we were led to believe was posted by God in Pasadena (as far as we knew back then), they stomped off that WCG "mantle", so why didn't Bob also stomp off Rod's "mantle" when Dibar was still alive, & follow Dibar's possible mantle directive to Bob of trying to change LCG errors? Bob says here that he preferred Dibar trying to change LCG but Dibar wanted Bob to do it.
If Bob places such high regard (now) for "hierarchical church governance" then he should have had faith that he could've remained with the mantle God gave to J. Tkach Sr. (HWA put "mantle" stamp of approval onto J. Tkach Sr. but never onto RCM) & stay with WCG just-long-enough until some kind of "event" (bone cancer) would take Tkach Sr. off the mantle (instead of us humans doing it). And THEN the day after Tkach Sr. died, Bob should have started a "CCOG" back then BEFORE GLOBAL, before stale LCG...instead of hopping off Tkach Sr.'s mantle so quickly & stomping off to follow the crass, rude Rod Meredith that HWA said should never preside over any highest office roles.(it's not entirely clear how long Bob stayed with WCG but he said he stayed longer than Rod Meredith stayed.)
Further, why does Bob & his doormats likely consider mine here (or anyone elses out there) cross examination of his "mantle" as "an accusing of the brethren" type of thing...while it was just FINE for HIM as a common "laity brethren" (in LCG) to systematically cross examine Rod Meredith's history & leadership role & office? (an office, by the way, which we're told had true mantle history...)
Why does Bob think that this kind of discussion likely ruins our opportunity we hope for, that : "it MAY be we're counted worthy to follow them all to escape"...& more than once, he leads us to fear we'll lose or sell our crown if we don't acknowledge his "Moses-style, one-man-hierarchical" church governance leadership role. Why didn't he prophetically decipher to leave RCM much earlier & follow Dibar Apartian's likely mantle role? Bob skipped out on Dibar so to speak, why does Bob expect us to "see" Bob when Bob couldn't "see" Dibar (in time before Dec. 2010)?
Will Bob say this is grumbling & complaining, when this is simply a "proving of all things" publicly...like the way Bob endeavoured to prove all about LCG? (& WCG for that matter...)
RCM suffered a moderately serious stroke in September 2008. He wasn't fully recovered in October 2008, and Bob writes elsewhere that the stroke was God's punishment to RCM for not obeying Bob in making changes to LCG that Bob had requested (and that Bob says RCM agreed to, though people around RCM say Bob is delusional about that).
Can you imagine being so heartless as to hector a man about this stuff just three weeks after he's had a stroke? That tells you what kind of a man Bob is.
It was one of RCM's character flaws that he liked to "cultivate" LCG's big donors so they would feel wanted and appreciated. Meredith liked to associate with his wealthy LCG members more than his working class members. But nobody other than Bob was ever witness to RCM calling Bob a prophet.
If RCM ever said, "Bob, God may consider you to be a prophet" he was 100% certainly saying it in the sense of, "Bob, God doesn't now consider you a prophet." After all, God may consider ANYONE a prophet in the future, if He likes. Bob just isn't that special. Unfortunately, Bob's entire worldview is centered on the idea that God has set him apart from other men as super-special, even though Bob's physical father and his spiritual father (RCM) were both disappointed in him.
The "I Have A Dream" speech worked wonders for Martin Luther King.
For Booby Thiel-- it is just plain nutty foolishness!
Hypothetically, we would know who has the mantle (if there even is such a thing based on Armstrongism) by the emergence of the super blessed (letter)COG, which begins going viral with an undeniable end time work, enjoys 30% growth, and is suddenly joined by all the ACOG members who recognize the Shepherd's voice.
Let's face it, by that criteria, we've only got fakers out there! It's not who says they have the mantle and gets most offended by the fact that nobody believes them, it's who rises up confidently, reaccumulates the blob of mercury, and finishes the work. Sleight of hand NOT required!
Memo to Bob: You do not have the shepherd's voice! That's why the sheep don't hear you. Don't complain and cry! You should be wailing and gnashing your teeth instead because it isn't you! You got passed by!!!
Heartless...let's see...indeed, if for example you were on a footpath with Bob & the 2 of you came across a lame or suffering or lost or sad cat, dog, squirrel, koala, what have you that needed help, & you were to pause & ask Bob, "hey, let's stop & help this critter"...Bob's historically emotionless concern for any pets we have would likely lead him to reply to you : "oh, no, let's continue on & leave this critter, because up ahead there "may be" humans who need our help/effort/attention, & animals' feelings are of low or zero value & concern in "true Christianity".
If you pressed him further to help the critter, he would likely accuse you of being "Cain-like" (i.e. vegetables offering instead of a slaughtered animal)...
It's the thing he has in common with anti-pets owning Dave Pack or loony RCG.
ok unless of course Rod or Mrs. Meredith were the humans up ahead on your path needing help from the stroke(s)...looks like Bob might also have you pass them by the wayside too..
What about Loma's dream?
It's an interesting progression of events. First Bob worked himself silly to build his site and promote LCG endlessly.
He'd hoped to be one of the two witnesses (still does), but he also wanted to be a prophet.
He gets anointed for an ailment and decides Bonjour has managed to confer a prophet role on him in the process.
He ends up having a tantrum because RCM and the big boys won't rewrite and rephrase their stuff to his specifications.
Then he decides that RCM should hand over the organization to him.
Bob is probably the only person to whom all of this doesn't seem ludicrous.
The man needs
Nobody should listen to Bob. He's an old fogey. 99% of the people over 50 are too stale and indoctrinated to know what is going on in the world. God could never use somebody like that. Never.
I got it!!! Remember how the ACOGs used to say that the Waldenses were sabbatarians until it was revealed that someone, in their zeal to prove that they were part of the "True History of the True Church" got the languages mixed up, and the Waldenses never did actually keep the sabbath, but in reality wore sabots as their preferred footwear? Too funny, right?
Well my research team has discovered that Bob Thiel is not, and never will be a prophet! Someone, once again got a little too zealous with their words! Bob Thiel actually prefers and wears Propet shoes!!!
When you smite the shepherd (JWT) and the sheep (WCG) are scattered, there is no one on earth to carry the mantle anymore.
The first post makes a good point that HWA anointed JWT -- not RM -- to take over. Later RM broke off independently on his own, as far as a I know, and became a model for those one-man-ruler types, which may have attracted Thiel to LCG in the first place.
As for Thiel's dream, he may have interpreted it as a revelation that he was to be elevated above RM via his higher righteousness and claim of prophet-status . But consider this, Bob. It may have been a sign showing that your pleas to RM would eventually result in his demotion (for not paying attention to his sheep, even after being afflicted with a stroke for that same sin) and that you would set up your own church thereafter (which will come to nothing due to your own sins of self-promotion and the African fiasco).
As for a prophet's authority, is he above an evangelist (RM) who shepherds a flock? (Eph 4:11)? Thiel may have thought so. At the very least RM should have paid some attention to Thiel's biblical and prophetic knowledge, which I think he did for a time. But as so frequently happens, when people listen to bad advice or the devil, RM soured toward on Thiel and vice-versa, leading to a split, more corruption and sin as a result.
Bob is so eager to be recognized and that in itself is a sin which leads to more sins as we've seen from his African fiasco.
Folks, look how Bob T. expects us to believe that God presents us all these hoops to jump through 1st BEFORE we stop the spinning Rubik cube mantle guesswork assessment of who's on 1st, what's on 2nd, (& I don't know who gets 3rd tithe either)-->
Aaron Dean mantle :🧩
"It is also possible that Aaron Dean had it before me. He was Herbert W. Armstrong top advisor until he died and tried to dissuade Joseph Tkach from apostasy. If so, the actual mantle would have passed to Bob Thiel no later than he was anointed to receive a double-portion of God's Spirit."
A.N. Dugger mantle🧩 R. Meredith mantle🧩 Dibar Apartian mantle🧩 :
"Some have questioned whether or not Dr. Meredith could have ever held the mantle, because of his character issues. Well, he may have. Like A.N. Dugger, if Dr. Meredith had the mantle he lost it. And he would have lost it no later than December 2011.
Another possibility is that the late evangelist Dibar Apartian had it. Dibar Apartian was originally not certain if he should follow Dr. Meredith into the old Global Church of God, but finally did. Over the years, Dibar Apartian kept telling me to get Dr. Meredith and the other LCG evangelists to correct their mistakes."
does God give us Bob's hoops to jump through🎡 :
"The mantle was seemingly picked up by Roderick C. Meredith or Dibar Apartian then (Radio, then Worldwide, then in 1993 Global, then in 1998 Living Church of God), until Dr. Meredith lost it no later than 2011 (consistent with a prophetic dream) (or in 2010 Dibar Apartian lost it when he died) or by Aaron Dean (Worldwide, then United Church of God) who may have held it until 2011, when Bob Thiel (Worldwide, then Global, then Living, then in 2012 Continuing Church of God) was anointed to receive a double portion of God's Spirit and was told by an LCG minister this was reminiscent of passing of the mantle and that seemed applicable (see also Why Bob Thiel Left the Living Church of God)."
"Plus Dr. Meredith had serious integrity issues and in various ways disqualified himself for the top role (presuming he ever had it--it may have been that it was the late Dibar Apartian until his death)--for some details, please see Why Bob Thiel Left the Living Church of God."
"Who’s on second?
He explained that, in line with Ephesians 4:11, prophets come in second in the hierarchy, after apostles and just above evangelists."
"So Dr. Thiel is saying the mantle goes with a person, not with a church organization, just like in the days of Elijah and Elisha. So do you mean, Dr. Thiel, that you think it’s possible that you have the mantle or are receiving the mantle?
“Yes,” Dr. Thiel replied. ...
Further, he said, “I didn’t ask anyone to lay hands upon me so I would be anointed with a double portion of God’s Spirit. It just happened.
We always tell people they’re supposed to trust God and not man."
almost too confusing, but ok for now...-->
"In November and December 2011, I counseled with my pastor Dr. Fall, as well as LCG minister Gary Ehman, about the prophet matters. I told both of them that I thought that I needed to have hands laid upon me again in order to validate the view that I might be some type of a prophet. They both told me that, in their view related to being a prophet, baptism was scripturally sufficient."
in 2010, was it Aaron Dean, RCM, or Dibar? :
"1921 – 1933 Andrew N. Dugger or 1922 – 1933 John S. Stanford
1933 – 1986 Herbert W. Armstrong
1986 – 2010 Dibar Apartian
2011 – present Bob Thiel"
🧩Isn't the wording a little tricky up there between the no-asking-for-hands-laid (double portion) but needed-hands-laid (to validate the view he's some type of prophet)?🧩
https://www.cogwriter.com/herbert-armstrong-philadelphia-era.htm
When you look at that pic of Elijah dropping his cloak/mantle down onto Elisha below, can you imagine Elijah actually having the cloak hooked on a long string off the end of a strong fishing pole? (or marionette puppet string). And instead of letting the mantle/cloak land directly onto Elisha, suddenly Elijah yanks the cloak back up a few times...making it briefly head toward landing 1st on Dibar Apartian...oops/yank cloak up, & now landing toward Aaron Dean boinngg/yanksie up again, now the cloak maybe landing on the Richard-Nixon-ish-personality of Rod Meredith...ka-floinngg/yank, ok...up again...will Bob T. try leaping up to grab it..."here, make it land on me, on me...me/me/me...no one else can print in 1000 + languages..."
Well that is an animated giphy-gif look at what this quoted paragraph excerpt below makes the mantle cloak seem to be doing at the turn of the 20th century until well into the 21st. During Y2K, Bob wants us to think the mantle part-way landed on this guy, oops then this guy...boinnggg...bounce goes the mantle-cloak ba-zzoinnggg :
"The mantle was seemingly picked up by Roderick C. Meredith or Dibar Apartian then (Radio, then Worldwide, then in 1993 Global, then in 1998 Living Church of God), until Dr. Meredith lost it no later than 2011 (consistent with a prophetic dream) (or in 2010 Dibar Apartian lost it when he died) or by Aaron Dean (Worldwide, then United Church of God) who may have held it until 2011, when Bob Thiel (Worldwide, then Global, then Living, then in 2012 Continuing Church of God) was anointed to receive a double portion..." (i.e. mantle?) 🧩🧩🧩
Did the mantle really bounce around like a lure on a fly-fishing pole?
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