Dennis On "What Prophet-eth a Man If He Can't Get It Right?"

What Prophet-eth a Man If He Can't Get It Right?

In my entire life, NOT ONE prophecy, which now in my mind is merely the human tendency to speculate about events as they perceive them, has "come true."   Aside from cracking the code, the Bible does not really speak of Britain, The United States, Russia or China.  Kings of the North, South, East and West are vague figures that have been named wrongly for thousands of years.  No prophet ever just came out and said "The King of the North is Larry the Great of Syria or the King of the South is Omar the Awesome of Ethiopia.  Well I am sure they actually have said that somewhere but they were wrong.

There have been hundreds if not thousands of the Two Witnesses of Revelation over the millennia, not to mention quite a few Elijah's, Elisha's and those in the spirit and power of John the Baptist.  EVERY Fundamentalist Christian Sect, Cult, Denomination and Church has spent it's years on earth reading the Bible as if it were a newspaper, living in the last days and among those who would be changed in a moment and in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump.  And they are all dead now and it is our turn.  I picture millions a hundred years from now in a world even worse than this present one printing booklets, loading ipads or downloading stuff into the chip in their heads about "the end times," and having it sent from yet another Prophet or Apostle who just knows what it's all about and what is about to happen.

Prophecy is merely speculation based on the factors one sees around them at the time they live and move and have their being.  Most other professions speculate, but religion  has to call it prophecy.  Just sounds better and more true and sure than speculation.

Before we take a look at some failed prophecies that all COGers think is not failed at all please understand that any prophecy one finds that they think is already over and done with is NOT DUAL.  Many things in the Bible are over and done with and have nothing to do with us or the times in which we find ourselves.  They are not DUAL.  Dual is what you make something when you want it to be still true and about to come around again for it's REAL fulfillment. It's simply not true.  Everything Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel said in their day was for their day.  The suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 was never Dual nor about Jesus.  It was about Isaiah who felt he was the one suffering to get the message out to Israel but that's another story.  No prophet looked hundreds and hundreds of years ahead .  If the people who were then facing what they were facing ever even thought that, they would turn away in droves because " well then, if this if for the way far ahead types, how does that help us?"-

Duality is what one does to drag into the present, ideas and stories that should have stayed rooted and grounded in the past where they were meant to be applied.

Bob Thiel, Awesome Prophet of the Still Going Church of God,  for example, is not a Prophet.  He is a speculator of religious outcomes as are all men and women who think they see themselves in the pages of the Bible.  What a slippery slope that is!  Ron Weinland nor his wife are the Two Witnesses.  Herbert Armstrong was not really the Elijah to come and GTA was not the guy dressed in filthy rags spoken of by the prophets. These were just religious folk of various and interesting persuasions.  Gerald Flurry is not really "that Prophet," and Dave Pack is not really an Apostle of the Overarching Church of the One True God/Christ.  It's all made up and it's all quite fantastic and silly.

So let's take a look at failed prophecies in the Bible and please try not to scream "It's Dual!"  or "That's out of context!"  If you are given to that, enjoy  

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
This is an example of Matthew making a scripture mean what it never meant which he did often. This is not a prophecy for 700 years into the future about Jesus. It was about not worrying about the Assyrians destroying them as it would be taken care of and that God was with them.  Immanuel means "God is with us,"  which is far different from Matthew's take of "God with us."  Jesus was never called Immanuel.
Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.
Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.
The river mentioned here is the Nile.  The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.
Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today
Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia.  No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.

Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for forty years.

Amos 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Many times, Jews have been pulled up out of their land.  The ownership of their land is still being fought for.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Nineveh was never overthrown.  Why?  Because God changed his mind in verse 3:10, despite what Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 and Ezekiel 24:14 says about God never changing his mind.  You will find in the Bible that when God, "changes his mind," it is always because what was said to be wasn't and we needed an out.
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled?
Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
There is no passage in the Old Testament that can be attributed to what Jesus is saying here.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended.  That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled. And "this generation" means THAT generation.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus tells the high priest that he would see his second coming.  The high priest is long dead, and Jesus hasn't returned yet.
 
Resist the idea that these are dual.  "Ok, they didn't happen yet!" is not the way to go on these scriptures.  They are not about the times to come.  When Jesus told people they would see the Son of Man or that those who pierced him as in Revelation would see him he meant very soon and NOT after thousands of years when they were resurrected.

Add to this what every Church of God Bible reader should know, that being  the FACT that the Apostle Paul really did predict Jesus would come soon and shortly and didn't, which makes him not so good at predictions either.  

Paul really did say "WE who are ALIVE and remain,....."   Paul really did say "WE shall be changed" and "We shall not all die, but we all shall be changed,"   Anyone can see the progressive hope turned to disappointment in the early Church who never looked thousands of years into the future for one second.  Does Bob Thiel predict thousands of years into the future as if we'd care about such times long after we die?  No...of course not.  Prophecy is for the times the prophet lives in and to give hope, well founded or not, to those who hear him THEN not now!
Whoever and whenever Revelation was written, it was NOT for the distant future and it is not DUAL.  When the author wrote chapter 12: 1-4 about the woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet about to give birth and the dragon waiting to devour the child, go run an astronomy program of September 7, 69 AD where the constellation Virgo the Virgin, bathed in the days sunlight, the moon under her feet , legs open towards the horizon with the Serpent of the constellation Ophucus waiting and you'll see how "as above so below" works when prophets look up at the night sky of THEIR times.  It's what people do to explain their crazy world in which THEY live, not the one in which we live way in the future. 

Reading the Old and New Testaments as one would read a Newspaper is a BIG mistake.  The Prophets weren't really writing to us 2700 years ago and the Apostle Paul or John did not mean US.  The books weren't written yesterday to be downloaded today.  Most if not all these sincere men and women were wrong in what they thought they saw for themselves and had not intention of being dual about it.  And please don't think "Well, God didn't tell them it was Dual."   I know you will.

Living in the world and on this planet can be both wondrous and very dangerous.  It always has been.  We all think we would like to know "what's going to happen," both to the world and ourselves mostly.  World conditions at anytime in history can be seen as being at an end.  When millions and millions died of the Black Plague, would they not see "prophecy coming alive!"?  When Rome fell or the Pope showed up, would many not see that as "prophecy coming alive!"?  Of course.  Every Pope is the last Pope and all deviants from the norm  of politics and religion are antichrists.  


What does it hurt to filter one's world through "prophecy" right or wrong?  It hurts you because it often postpones facing reality. How many in the faith believe  that they won't actually die and then have to face the fact that they will die as have all before them?  All flesh is grass. No exceptions.
 It can make you give resources you don't have to people who don't use them well or make a living off you.  It can sucker you in to a career you wish you'd never had. It can blind one to the joy of life or make your kids wish they had other parents.  It can suck out your confidence and crush hope because it can take you down the wrong path or put you on the wrong train even if you think it is on the right track.

For me, and only me probably amongst the COG crowd, life is to be lived in the only time you actually have...now.  It is not easy and the prophecy bug bites deep into the human need to know even if they don't really know.  The past is only in our heads and tends to torment us endlessly if we don't let go of the baggage and the future simply is not here.  When it arrives it will just be another moment in the now to deal with and then a past memory. 

No prophecy uttered by any WCG/COG or Fundamentalist Christian in my life has ever been correct.  As far as I can tell, this holds true back through the last 3000 years.  100% of all Prophets so far have been 100% wrong 100% of the time. 

Over the hill, just around the corner, very soon, 3,5,10, 15 and certainly no more than 20, gun laps (have we not run out of bullets by now?), shortly and the hour now is simply aren't true to date .  

You know who is no prophet. You know who is no Witness nor is you know who.  You know who is not "that Prophet" and you know who is not really a gifted Apostle of the last days.   And like it or not, the scoffers spoken of in the Book of Peter were right.  They weren't evil.  Their motives weren't wicked.  They weren't being mean or faithless.  They just noticed and began to notice that what they had been told all their lives by the prophets and Apostles simply was not coming to pass.  They simply were ahead of their time and saying things that others were only thinking....and they were right. 

Life itself can be  a Non-Prophet experience if you have eyes to see how badly they predict the who, what, when, where , why and how of the unknowable future. 

Dennis
DenniscDiehl@aol.com 

Prophet Bob Thiel Calls LCG Evangelists Liars

Prophet Thiel is burning bridges faster that imaginable.  Instead of making clean break and keeping his mouth shut, he is going out of his way to discredit LCG evangelists in order to make himself look good in his potential new members sight.

Prophet Thiel cannot get over the fact that LCG does NOT consider him a prophet. It's turned into a "he said, he said" game now. LCG denies specifically calling him a prophet and Thiel claims they specifically called him one.

Prophet Thiel writes today about Doug Winnail, calling him and other LCG evangelists out as liars.  In spite of this LCG still continues to pussy foot around with prophet Thiel.  Prophet Thiel is already stealing members away from LCG, causing division and upset among the brethren, and speaking out against LCG leadership.

01/07/13 p.m. After responding to something he emailed me Friday, I just received an email from Dr. Winnail that contained various comments, some of which are other than accurate. But I felt that perhaps some may wish to see the following excerpts from the email he wrote to me today. Dr. Winnail wrote about himself and the other two LCG Charlotte-based evangelists:

When we made comments to you  that “you may be a prophet” (and that could include some point in the future) that was to be kind to you and also acknowledge that God can use anyone He chooses when he chooses to use them...If God chooses to use your or anyone else in the capacity of a prophet, that is His decision and that will become obvious...
Time will tell if your claims are valid…so let’s leave it at that.

Those who look at the "Bob Thiel prophetic chronology" on this page should be able to see that the statements to me were more than in general. How many others in LCG were told so often something to the effect that “God might consider you to be a prophet,” “You have an in-depth understanding {of prophetic matters}—you could be a prophet,” and “We all (the three Charlotte evangelists) think you might be a prophet.” Others may ask why the LCG Charlotte evangelists encouraged me to consider that God may consider me to be a prophet as this is not historically been a standard COG practice? And also what I really did (ask them to correct errors, etc.) that led to their letters of improper accusation?
Furthermore, it should be recalled that it was Dr. Meredith himself who first brought this prophet matter up with a telephone call to me in October 2008. It was not like I had ever asked him about that prior to this.

Notice also that Dr. Winnail wrote today that all the Charlotte evangelists were trying to basically encourage my prophetic writings and leanings. And by the time they made “We all (the three Charlotte evangelists) think you might be a prophet” comment in August/September 2012, they all knew about the anointing for a double-portion of God's Spirit by Gaylyn Bonjour on 12/15/2011 and also had a decent idea of how I viewed it.

Hopefully, for those who have believed the misinformation that the three Charlotte evangelists never thought that I might and/or may be a prophet will realize that in fact, they all did. And perhaps one day they will all do so again.

Dennis on Bob Thiel and the "No One Acknowledges My Awesomeness Church of God"

Bob Thiel says of himself...

"The Continuing Church of God is the "little flock" that traces its history from the Book of Acts, throughout the ages, and into the 21st Century. Would you like to learn more about the faithful remnant?"

Mercy, now there's a historical and theological mess up. Have you ever wondered if Jesus and the Gospel was so convincing and real, why Jesus can't seem to get anyone to stay on course or keep a group together "in Him"?

The COGs add to themselves by subtraction from others and multiply by division over and over. It's what a virus does.

In reality, if one dare read outside the box of COG booklets they have stashed, there never was one coherent "all believe the same thing" Church of God in history. From Ebionites to Essenes and from Notzri, Nazarenes, Paulines to Marcionites it's been a shoot out over who knows Jesus, that would be CHRIST, to COGers, the best.

The NT is rife with division between all concerned and what you see today you would have seen back then. NO ONE ever believes they belong to the wrong, false or pooped out Church. No newbie is going to claim anything but exact and direct ties to the Jesus of the Bible and the Church of the NT.
Delusional of course, but to be expected.

The only thing Bob can use to excuse his break from LCG and "Continuing Church of God," is that he disagreed with them on a few points here an there AND that they would not recognize his awesomeness. Neither of which is an excuse to actually start ones own church but one that is the most often chosen method and excuse.

Bob should call himself the "No One Acknowledges My Awesomeness Church of God." That's the bottom line. He has no business disrupting the faith of yet more people and causing more confusion in religion. Bob and those like him give people who are tired of the games men play MORE reasons than ever to walk away and want to be left alone.

Anyone who gives Bob their hard earned money to promote himself and demand others filter the world through his eyes as more special and insightful than others is a fool.

What we are seeing in Bob Thiel are long held personal beliefs he has had about himself that he was hoping, over time, LCG would accept. You don't come up with this self view overnight. I can assure you that had LCG welcomed him as "prophet" and brought him into the inner sanctum, ALL disagreements could be put aside and this would not have happened. The fact is that they did not take him in, did not believe his own press and did not want to please him at the expense of probably hundreds of others who would have bolted over taking him as he wanted to be perceived, i.e. as a prophet in the Church.

Well as I told one guy told me when working at a local hospital that he was a prophet and had come to heal the sick and raise the dead.."really??? Well, unfortunately St. Francis is a NON-PROPHET Hospital and you will have to go over to Memorial Hospital which is FOR PROPHET." lol He said, "Ok, I didn't know that...I'll go there." He obviously never got my joke but I never saw him again.

Dennis
DenniscDiehl@aol.com 

PS and Bob..I don't wish you well. You are perpetuating the very things that make thinking people and sincerely seeking people puke. To think much less suggest that you are more special and closer to your imaginary perfectly connected to Jesus (which no real Jesus ever thought of creating) church is simply insane.

No one had the guts to tell HWA he was arrogant and misguided along with a wasteful spender of other people's money. Those days are over. Ten Thousand people will be watching you're every move, statement and opinion about yourself and none of them will be wanting to join themselves to you.

You will be a study in delusionary, illusionary and theomanic thinking. We have Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and Ron Weinland and now we have you.

"The eye that sees cannot see itself." I learned that several times the hard way and I suspect the Karma Fairy , who usually lives at my place, will be making a trip out West soon to play.

Those of the near couple thousand who visit this site each day and who probably belong to each and every kind of COG out there simply need to find the value in your own views and journey. Never allow others to filter your world for you through their eyes. You miss a lot of life doing that and shut yourself off to wonderful and amazing knowledge and realities you would otherwise miss by doing so.

I suppose those who act special and claim special insights and callings, who pretty quick make contributions tax deductible and endeavor to attract a following due to their awesomeness push my last button with religion.

and now it is 11:11 which always tells me I am on the right path lol...amen

Hope For Sinners If GTA Would Be Resurrected And Repents

The mind of Armstrongites still fascinates me.  How anyone can logically come up with these blatant absurdities is beyond me.  The fact that Armstrongites believe this bull is frightening!

Church Government was one of the main themes HWA taught. Even sending Gerald Waterhouse worldwide for many years to emphasize the importance of this doctrine. The importance is not just for now. It is a necessary lesson to learn for when we are powerful beings in the Kingdom of God. We won't be doing 'our thing'. We will be obedient to our husband Christ, through the chain of authority he establishes.

That is the lesson Laodiceans haven't yet learnt. That is probably why bringing back GTA to reconcile with his father to acknowledge his superior God-given authority for all the Church to see, is important.

All Philadelphia and repentant Laodiceans resurrected immortal are likely to be working under HWA who trained them,  in the Millennium.

Imagine the impact on the Church if they saw a resurrected HWA  measuring the groups there are now.
Imagine the hope for sinners if a resurrected GTA repented and did powerful things because of it.
The world remembers them. Their return would stop the world in its tracks and make everyone sit up and take notice, especially the church which has for the most part discarded the teachings of Herbert Armstrong and devalued his position.
He would be uniquely qualified to 'measure' as Zerubbabel is told to do.

All of this revolves around HWA being resurrected first.  Then GTA will be resurrected so he can reconcile with HWA.  Then the two will join forces and restore the Church of God to it's rightful state in the universe and then become the Two Witnesses.

Most of the world does not remember them, they have no idea who they even were! They have made no impact and most assuredly the hundreds of splinter groups today are not making any impact either!

New Book: John Morgan "Paris-London Connection: The Assassination Of Princess Diana"

Anyone reading here for the last three years will have heard of John Morgan.  He wrote the book

Flying Free

Amazon:  Flying Free thoroughly covers the background of the Worldwide Church Of God (WCG) cult - its history, leadership, doctrines, beliefs and its membership. This book contains never previously published research explaining Herbert Armstrong's Holiness Quaker upbringing. It also includes extensive research on the WCG's comparison to a cult, and the characteristics that actually define a cult. Flying Free documents the impact of the Armstrong teachings on individual lives, but then goes on to show a priceless freedom - found in life beyond fundamentalism. Flying Free is a valuable, practical resource for ex-WCG members and for relatives or friends attempting to come to terms with the reality of loved ones joining a cult. It should serve as a warning to those contemplating entering a fundamentalist church. The book also includes a balanced assessment of the origins of the Bible, the authority of the Bible, and an appraisal of organised Christianity's influence on the individual Christian.

John has anew book out on the death of Princess Diana and Dodi Fayed.  The synopsis of the book from Angus and Robertson Books has this to say:

Paris-London Connection is the most shocking yet factual book written on the 1997 Paris crash that took the lives of Princess Diana and her lover, Dodi Fayed. This fast-moving but authoritative narrative covers the events leading up to and following the tragedy. The book is a short, quick read - 200 pages - but is a bombshell because it closely follows the evidence and forensic analysis included in the 5,000 pages of the Diana Inquest book series. That series draws together the evidence from the French investigation, the British Operation Paget investigation, the 2007-8 London inquest and hundreds of British police documents not shown to the inquest jury. Members of Britain's royal family, MI6 officers and agents, senior French police personnel and Western intelligence agencies all played a role in the events in Paris.

Exposed for the first time is the specific role of the key senior MI6 officer, Sherard Cowper-Coles. The book reveals the people who ordered the assassination of Diana and Dodi and those who carried out the operation and how they did it. It also shows how the authorities covered up what occurred and the significant connection between events in France and the UK, both before and after the crash. 27 inquest witnesses - both French and British - who committed perjury at the London inquest are named for the first time. Paris-London Connection reveals the level of coordinated state-authorised corruption in the conduct of the French and British police investigations and the inquest headed by Lord Justice Scott Baker.

This is the long awaited book that uses the actual witness and documentary evidence to reveal the who, how and why of the assassination of Britain's much-loved Princess Diana. John Morgan is author of the Diana Inquest book series. Prominent British QC, Michael Mansfield, who served at the London inquest, has said: I have no doubt that the volumes written by John Morgan will come to be regarded as the 'Magnum Opus' on the crash ...and the cover-up that followed. Mohamed Al Fayed, who lost his son Dodi in the crash, has stated: I believe that John Morgan has done more to expose the facts of this case than the police in France and Britain.

January Letter To LCG Ministers About Prophet Thiel

Below is the letter that was sent to the LCG ministry.  I have received over 15 of these in the last few days.  LCG ministers and members obviously have found great issue with the prophet's self appointment and his "wisdom" he dishes out. The interesting thing is that the issue with Thiel has been brewing for over 2 years now and has finally come to a head. Prophet Thiel has been giving the impression over the last two years that he was speaking in a capacity approved by the Living Church of God.  Obviously this has NOT been the case.

------------------------

Date: January 2, 2013

Dear Fellow Ministers around the world,

Greetings from Charlotte! God is continuing to bless the Work in so many ways—
including the fact that we had an approximately 11% increase in our income in 2012.
We are very thankful for this and all the growth in our TV coverage, the impact that our
Internet and the campaigns are providing, etc. And I am especially thankful for the
wonderful response and warmth and enthusiasm we had over the recent 20th
Anniversary celebration of the Church. We have much to be thankful for to start 2013.

My purpose in writing all of you ministers is to ask you to read carefully the attached
copy of the letter I sent to Dr. Thiel several days ago by email. This will give you a
reasonably thorough understanding of the problems he has had over the last few years.
So you will be able to answer the questions any of our brethren may have if they are
confused or disillusioned in any way by anything Dr. Thiel sends out or says.

However, Dr. Winnail and I both agree that it is best for you not to read this letter to the
congregation or share it in any public setting. It is actually better for Dr. Thiel—and the
Church as a whole—that he not receive “too much publicity.” Most people already
realize that he is often “over the top.” And has not been a reliable source of information
in many cases. Also, at least a few dozen people realize his dreams of grandeur and
the fact that he is fixated on the fact that he thinks that he is a “prophet.” So because of
the above situation, we do not plan to “publically” mark Dr. Thiel at this time. However,
if any of you hear of any of our people leaving to join Dr. Thiel or that they are greatly
affected by any of his attacks, please let us know.

Thank you, again, for all the work and loyalty you have shown in your individual
ministries. Let us all continue to pray for one another, for unity in the body of Christ, and
that God’s blessing on the Work may continue even greater in the secular year 2013.
May God be with and bless and protect you and your families.

With Christian love,
Roderick C. Meredith

Prophet Thiel Now Accepting Tithe Money

The prophet Thiel has now officially formed his new personality cult/pseudo church.  You may legally deduct your tithe money on you income taxes.  A mailing address in God's appointed city now accepts tithe money. 

Prophet Thiel's new web site is here: Continuing Church of God

Prophet Thiel is going to have a harder time in pulling Church of God members away from other groups.  He seems to be intensely disliked in Living Church of God and United.  I highly doubt any of Dave Packs minions will jump ship.

The prophet claims to have new people joining his personality cult that have no Church of God background.  Sermons are being preached and services are being held.  Prophet Thiel thinks he scored big by getting HWA's grandson to join him.  Dan Mattson is now part of prophet Thiel's personalty cult.

In his first co-worker/member letter he says:

Dear Brethren and co-workers in Christ:

We have heard from scattered ones in the USA, Canada, Africa, and the South Pacific. As most of you know, this has been a packed eight days here in California.

On Sunday, I spoke over the telephone with the first person who decided to commit to the Continuing Church of God whom I previously did not know personally. After speaking with him and then hearing from the first woman to commit whom I did not know personally, I decided a high priority would be to figure out how to serve our few scattered brethren.

On December 29, 2012, we held for the first service of the Continuing Church of God. It consisted of having brief sermon followed by a question and answer session as a third of the congregants had never attended any Church of God service and had questions. But going forward a more traditional format for services was the plan.

Dave Pack's Monument To Himself

Dagon's Temple rises in Wadsworth Ohio

Meredith Letter To "prophet" Thiel

Dr. Robert Thiel
XXX xxxxxxxxx
Arroyo Grande, CA

Dear Dr. Thiel,

I have carefully read and marked your paper to Dexter Wakefield on the “Chronology
Related to Bob Thiel and Evangelistic and Related Matters.” Since this matter relates
to your relationship with the Church as a whole and your entire future, I have decided
to answer this matter myself. I have prayed that for your own good and your future
reward in God’s Kingdom, you will sincerely ask God at this time to give you an open
mind and willing heart to heed Almighty God’s instruction in Proverbs 15:31-33:
“The ear that hears the rebukes of life will abide among the wise. He who disdains
instruction despises his own soul, but he who heeds rebuke gets understanding.
The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, and before honor is humility.”

Bob, I have personally liked you, wanted to encourage you and have tried to work
with you for years. However, I have seen that you have had great difficulty in learning
the lessons of deep humility that God wants all of us to learn. With very few
exceptions, nearly everyone who knows you has clearly seen that—although you
have a quick mind and great energy—you have nearly always thought very highly of
yourself and of your own opinions. You have offended or at least “bugged” dozens of
Church members with this very self-important, pushy and “know-it-all” attitude and
approach. So if I, as a minister of Christ for over 60 years and one old enough to be
your father—can help you, I would certainly like to do this. For I love you as a fellow
human being and one I have known and shared a number of hours with in talking
over matters related to the Bible and our entire purpose here on this earth.

However, Bob, your own remarkable vanity and “dreams of greatness” have greatly
affected your ability to think clearly many times. Over the last few years, many of us
have noted that you have begun to think of yourself in terms that are not realistic.
Also, to abet your desires to be a “great one” in the Work, you have carefully and
cleverly twisted and enlarged upon many things people have mentioned to you.
Throughout this entire “chronology” paper you have done this over and over. Recently,
I had a meeting with Messrs. Ames, Winnail, Wakefield and my son, Jim, to discuss
this paper you sent to Mr. Wakefield (and now I see you have also sent it to Messrs.
Tyler and Weston). All of us in the meeting except Mr. Wakefield have gotten to know
you somewhat and have heard many others express concern about your egotistical
ideas that you believe you are a prophet or one of the two witnesses. I will not take the
time to argue about every single point you bring up in your paper; that is not the
important matter. I will just say that over and over you subtly twist, enlarge upon or
exaggerate many of the things you think you heard—some of which you may have
“partially heard” but enlarged upon in your own mind and received in a way that was
not intended by the one doing the speaking. Near the very beginning of your paper
you try to quote Gary Ehman as saying that God has used you to “prepare the
Church” and then you go way beyond what Mr. Ehman intended to say. Then, you did
2
the same thing relating to the January 6, 2000 incident about me saying, “That is you”
in relation to Roman Catholic prophecies. Then, you indicate that you told Davy
Crockett that I was going to be “hit” with something bad to teach me a lesson. Then,
you indicate that the “mini-stroke” I had in September 2008 was in fulfillment of that
prophecy. Bob, I never knew that you had given such a prophecy and never felt that
this min-stroke I had at age 78 was any sort of “fulfillment” of anything you had ever
said! Bob, do you really believe that you “prophesied” to my having a stroke, and that
it was a direct result of my not heeding correction from you? I strongly suggest you
consider Proverbs 16:18, “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a
fall.” Then your letter goes to October 3, 2008 where you say that I said, “God may
consider you to be a prophet.” Bob, as you well know, I had my stroke in September
2008 and was still very weak and disoriented as a result of it. That you would take
anything that I said in that time period and try to use it is not right. I do not ever
remember saying anything like that, and I can assure you that I have never thought
you might be a prophet! But if I did make some kind of statement in this regard, I was
simply trying to encourage you to go on and grow in your understanding of the Bible
and willingness to serve. Then you go to January 2009 where you say I told you that if
I was raised to the office of apostle, I was “considering ordaining Bob Thiel as a
prophet.” That, Bob, is simply not true! For I have never, at any time—considered
ordaining you as a prophet. This is not because I don’t “like” you, but rather because I
have understood for years your tendency to bring in “odd” or “Catholic prophesies” or
put unusual twists on scripture in such a way that no true prophet of God would ever
do.

You are probably correct in your statement that in the Spring/Summer of 2009 I may
have told you that I was “praying for the success” of your prophetic book. For I have
tried to be your friend and encourage you without giving you delusions of “grandeur.”
However, it appears that any encouraging thing that I or most anyone else has told
you seems to be adding to this “delusions of grandeur” feeling you have about
yourself.

Then, in your paper, you go on to describe your meeting with me in Panama City and
later with Dibar Apartian who, you say, “believed” then that God had a top prophetic
role for Bob Thiel. However, all of us who knew Mr. Apartian at that time and have
talked to him many times about these matters know that Mr. Apartian did not think of
you as a prophet. You can easily ascertain that by talking to Mrs. Apartian, Mr. Ames,
Dr. Winnail and all of us. Bob, since you have this powerful feeling of “greatness” you
often “read into” what anyone says. This kind of idea of you being a prophet that is
pounding away in the back of your mind is once again causing you to twist your own
memory of what is said by others.

Later in the paper, you talk about Dr. Fall and Gary Ehman being approached by you
about your desire to “have hands laid upon you” in order to ask for healing and for
wisdom before meeting with evangelists here at Headquarters. As you point out, they
did not agree to do so. Then on December 15,2011 you went to Gaylyn Bonjour and
asked him to anoint you for an apparent physical ailment, but also asked him to ask
3
God to give you wisdom in the upcoming meetings with the HQ Evangelists. He
agreed to do this and, as is his normal approach—he can be emotional and heartfelt
about the matter and asked God to grant you a “double-portion of His Holy Spirit.”
Others have told me that, being partly of French ancestry, Mr. Bonjour is often
emotional and very heartfelt when he anoints anyone. Mr. Bonjour has confirmed he
in no way was intending to ask God to make you a prophet! Yet, because of your
vivid imagination and fervent desire to exalt yourself to that role, you “took it” that
way—as you do so with many other things.

Then you go on to somehow try to indicate that you had special knowledge about how
my wife was to be “hit hard with something.” Consequently when it was announced in
January that she had come down with cancer, you deluded yourself into believing that
you had somehow prophesied this to happen. Nothing could be further from the truth!
She had not been feeling well for months, and the stage four diagnosis indicated that
this cancer had been growing inside her body for many months. Constantly, in your
paper, you seem to be “reading into” events that indicate you were given something
special by God about such matters. Then, you indicate that you feel that “only a
member of the eldership is required to anoint one as a prophet” and use 1 Timothy
4:14 as a proof text. Bob, 1 Timothy 4:14 is clearly, in context, talking about the gift of
God’s Holy Spirit given to Timothy as a Christian—not the office of a prophet.
Certainly, all of us have the laying on of hands by the eldership after baptism to
receive God’s Spirit. But this Scripture is not talking about becoming a prophet, but
receiving God’s Spirit to help Timothy, “be an example to the believers in word, in
conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity”
(v.12).

By “reading into” things that others tell you the idea that you might be a prophet,
you have deceived yourself—willingly of course—so that your mind is now
virtually “fixated” on the idea that you, are a “prophet” of God.

However, what you utterly fail to recognize is that a true prophet of God—in God’s
New Testament times—has always been clearly recognized as such by the ministry
already in high offices in God’s Church; who are shown by Christ—the living Head of
the Church that this person is in that office. Such an individual has always been
cooperative with those doing the Work and has never “set himself up” all on his own
to contradict, to compete, or to be a “lone wolf out there” doing his own thing to exalt
himself.

Although you think you are not like “Ron Weinland” or others who have done this kind
of thing, your present statements and writings indicate that that is exactly what you
are becoming. Therefore, as the one Christ Himself has put in the office of Presiding
Evangelist and leading minister in the Church of God doing the Work of God at this
time, I want to tell you, in love, that you need to realize you are not a prophet, nor are
you recognized as such by the Church or by Christ’s true ministry whom He has set in
authority in His Church. You need to humble yourself and recognize that authority for
your own good. If you end up “fighting” or “competing” with the Work of the living God,
4
God will deal with you and He will humble you in ways that we do not now fully
understand. For “whom God loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He
receives” (Hebrews 12:6).

At my age and in my office for so many years, Bob, I can sincerely tell you that I have
no feelings of hate or competition with you. I simply want to help you “wake up”
before it is too late. I pray that God will help you to understand and heed what I am
now telling you as a servant of Jesus Christ who has faithfully served Him full time for
over 60 years. Please be willing to listen and to heed what I am saying in the name
of Jesus Christ!

Bob, you made the statement in your letter, “…his then pastor (Dr. Fall)…” indicating
that you may no longer consider yourself a member of the Living Church of God. If
that is not the case, and if you are willing to repent, to listen and take correction, and
continue to be a part of the Living Church of God, I do ask you, in Jesus’ name to let
us know. If you are unwilling to heed the loving correction given in this letter, and
insist on cleaving to your view of yourself as a “prophet”, let us know this also and we
will understand that you have chosen to trod a different path separate from the Living
Church of God. At least you can be open and honest about this. As the physical
leader of God’s Church, I have an obligation to protect the brethren from wolves, and
I take this responsibility seriously. If you turn aside and try to draw others to follow
you down this dangerous path, we will have to do everything we can to protect God’s
people.

I have prayed for you and will pray for you much more in the days to come—asking
God to guide you in His love for your eternal good. I do ask you to let us hear from
you as I have indicated above. Our prayers will be with you, not against you. May
God guide you to do His will, and not your own.

With Christian love, Roderick C. Meredith

Bob Thiel: Arroyo Grande, CA Now God's True HQ On Earth

ht:PT

The prophet on the Good Ship Lollipop

Did you know that multiple millions of people have been reached from prophet Thiel's new headquarters in Arroyo Grande, CA?  He claims to be doing a work now on par with HWA's worldwide ministry.  It is a work son to be even greater and more accurate than Living Church of God's.

On a cumulative basis, out of Arroyo Grande (mainly through the internet and radio interviews), millions have been reached. On a cumulative basis, out of Charlotte (mainly through television, printed publications, and the internet), multiple millions have been reached.

But this, even including the growth that we both have had this year, is a mere fraction of Herbert W. Armstrong’s 1971 reach—and even if he overstated the reach, he reached even more in the 1980s than the early 1970s—which is still many times more people than are being reached now. I, like the late Dibar Apartian did, believe that I could assist in not only working on aspects of the message, but in increasing the impact of the efforts in Charlotte through making aspects more interesting, more relevant, accurate, etc. More impact is needed in the 21st century than in the 20th century.

That mantle of evangelism has now been passed to the prophet in Arroyo Grande. At least according to the prophet.  It is now up to the prophet to get that final warning message out.

About a decade ago, Dr. Meredith essentially agreed and stated to me that in the end it would not mainly be the message of the COG vs. the Protestants, but it would be the COG basically vs. the ecumenical religion that will rise up in the end that will likely (for a while) refer to itself as "Catholic." In 2005 during the Feast of Tabernacles in Clearwater Beach, after a private lunch, we and our wives met at his hotel room and I discussed various aspects of the final phase of the work with him. Partially, because of this, a few weeks later I spoke with Dr. D. Winnail about me pursuing more formal education in theology and early Church history (and he encouraged me to do so), and then did so. With Evangelist Richard Ames, I discussed parts of the final phase of the work briefly on the Last Great Day in 2012, and he concurred with Dr. Meredith’s assessment about this phase would mainly consist of the COG vs. the ecumenical “Catholic” faith and less related to the Protestants.

 The prophet wants to reinforce to Charlotte that they have errors in their message and that he can correct those errors.  Isn't a sad shame that those ignorant fools in Charlotte have ignored the message from the prophet!

It remains my opinion that when the European King of the North is publicly identified, and the media picks this up, that this will cause the King of the North to become furious (cf. Daniel 11:28,30). This media attention will magnify at least parts of the message, and likely lead to the final fulfillment of Matthew 24:14. Probably prior to unleashing direct persecution, the King of the North and/or his allies are likely to go through COG literature to look for errors, contradictions, and anything else to discredit God’s Church. This will likely cause the way of truth to be blasphemed (cf. 2 Peter 2:1-2). Real steps should be taken to minimize this.

 Now, I am not saying that any in Charlotte are intentionally trying to teach known error (even though I believe there are doctrinal errors coming from Charlotte). Yet, related to matters of history, Charlotte has intentionally sent out, for one example, church history booklets that contain known error (and still does so). This complicates, in my view, the final phase of the work.

.

Bob Thiel: The Staring Prophet

Did any of you catch this creepy comment by prophet Thiel where he says he stood there staring at Gaylyn Bonjour?

On Sunday 12/18/11 night at a family wedding reception, without discussing the matter, Bob Thiel stared at Gaylyn Bonjour for a few moments, without saying anything and then asked, “Do you have any idea of what you may have accidently done?”  Gaylyn Bonjour said, “Yes, I think so.”

If I was Gaylyn I would have hightailed it out of the room at that moment. 

Thiel Says: LCG Ministers That Leaked Letter Will Answer to God

After the deluge yesterday of the letter from Rod Meredith to Thiel and various comments to PLEASE post it, the flood gates have opened.  Prophet Thiel says that LCG ministers who forwarded the letter will have to answer to "god" for their insolence.  Bad, bad, bad ministers!  Shame on you!

The prophet writes:

As expected, some associated with the LCG ministry have leaked the 12/28/13 letter to me to anti-COG sources on the internet. They can later try to explain this to God as obviously several with insufficient love of the truth or trust in the word of God would not actually want to first talk to me to find out if these things are so (Matthew 18:15-20). The reality is that that letter contains false accusations, improper statements, and a variety of false statements. The Bible warns against spreading such things, for "whoever spreads slander is a fool" (Proverbs 10:18).

What I find interesting is that after years and years of the prophet writing that Rod Meredith and the Living Church of God does not lie, the prophet is now calling them liars.

Rod Meredith Letter to Bob Thiel On His "...self-important, pushy, "know-it-all" attitude."

Today I received a LOT of copies from various people of the letter that was sent to the ministers in LCG about Thiel. Here are some excerpts from the letter that Rod Meredith wrote to Bob Thiel.

Bob, I have personally liked you, wanted to encourage you and have tried to work with you for years. However, I have seen that you have had great difficulty in learning the lessons of deep humility that God wants all of us to learn. With very few exceptions, nearly everyone who knows you has clearly seen that—although you have a quick mind and great energy—you have nearly always thought very highly of yourself and of your own opinions. You have offended or at least “bugged” dozens of Church members with this very self-important, pushy and “know-it-all” attitude and approach. So if I, as a minister of Christ for over 60 years and one old enough to be your father—can help you, I would certainly like to do this. For I love you as a fellow human being and one I have known and shared a number of hours with in talking over matters related to the Bible and our entire purpose here on this earth.

This is kind of rich coming from Rod Meredith considering HWA accused Rod of the exact same thing.  HWA sent Meredith to Hawaii for a year in order to examine himself and to learn some humility.  Since it did not work for Meredith why would we expect Thiel to deal well with this same issue.

However, Bob, your own remarkable vanity and “dreams of greatness” have greatly affected your ability to think clearly many times. Over the last few years, many of us have noted that you have begun to think of yourself in terms that are not realistic. Also, to abet your desires to be a “great one” in the Work, you have carefully and cleverly twisted and enlarged upon many things people have mentioned to you.

If Rod Meredith and the powers that be at Charlotte saw this happening in Thiel then WHY did they continue to encourage it?  Either they are covering something up or Thiel is lying.

All of us in the meeting except Mr. Wakefield have gotten to know you somewhat and have heard many others express concern about your egotistical ideas that you believe you are a prophet or one of the two witnesses.

Oops, I can see why Bob is not happy with this letter.  It's gets right to the point in naming Thiel's issues and that makes Thiel uncomfortable.

Bob, as you well know, I had my stroke in September 2008 and was still very weak and disoriented as a result of it. That you would take anything that I said in that time period and try to use it is not right. I do not ever remember saying anything like that, and I can assure you that I have never thought you might be a prophet! But if I did make some kind of statement in this regard, I was simply trying to encourage you to go on and grow in your understanding of the Bible and willingness to serve. Then you go to January 2009 where you say I told you that if I was raised to the office of apostle, I was “considering ordaining Bob Thiel as a prophet.” That, Bob, is simply not true! For I have never, at any time—considered ordaining you as a prophet. This is not because I don’t “like” you, but rather because I have understood for years your tendency to bring in “odd” or “Catholic prophesies” or put unusual twists on scripture in such a way that no true prophet of God would ever do.

Ouch!

Bob, since you have this powerful feeling of “greatness” you often “read into” what anyone says. This kind of idea of you being a prophet that is pounding away in the back of your mind is once again causing you to twist your own memory of what is said by others.

Then on December 15,2011 you went to Gaylyn Bonjour and asked him to anoint you for an apparent physical ailment, but also asked him to ask (page 3)

God to give you wisdom in the upcoming meetings with the HQ Evangelists. He agreed to do this and, as is his normal approach—he can be emotional and heartfelt about the matter and asked God to grant you a “double-portion of His Holy Spirit.” Others have told me that, being partly of French ancestry, Mr. Bonjour is often emotional and very heartfelt when he anoints anyone. Mr. Bonjour has confirmed he in no way was intending to ask God to make you a prophet! Yet, because of your vivid imagination and fervent desire to exalt yourself to that role, you “took it” that way—as you do so with many other things.

Looks like the story about Gaylyn Bonjour is not exactly how Thiel portrays it. 

Although you think you are not like “Ron Weinland” or others who have done this kind of thing, your present statements and writings indicate that that is exactly what you are becoming. Therefore, as the one Christ Himself has put in the office of Presiding Evangelist and leading minister in the Church of God doing the Work of God at this time, I want to tell you, in love, that you need to realize you are not a prophet, nor are you recognized as such by the Church or by Christ’s true ministry whom He has set in
authority in His Church. You need to humble yourself and recognize that authority for your own good. If you end up “fighting” or “competing” with the Work of the living God, (page 4)

God will deal with you and He will humble you in ways that we do not now fully understand. For “whom God loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives” (Hebrews 12:6).

Bob, you made the statement in your letter, “…his then pastor (Dr. Fall)…” indicating that you may no longer consider yourself a member of the Living Church of God. If that is not the case, and if you are willing to repent, to listen and take correction, and continue to be a part of the Living Church of God, I do ask you, in Jesus’ name to let us know. If you are unwilling to heed the loving correction given in this letter, and insist on cleaving to your view of yourself as a “prophet”, let us know this also and we will understand that you have chosen to trod a different path separate from the Living Church of God. At least you can be open and honest about this. As the physical leader of God’s Church, I have an obligation to protect the brethren from wolves, and I take this responsibility seriously. If you turn aside and try to draw others to follow you down this dangerous path, we will have to do everything we can to protect God’s
people.

I have prayed for you and will pray for you much more in the days to come—asking God to guide you in His love for your eternal good. I do ask you to let us hear from you as I have indicated above. Our prayers will be with you, not against you. May God guide you to do His will, and not your own.

With Christian love, Roderick C. Meredith

Is LCG's Gaylyn Bonjour The Cause of Thiel's New Found Prophet Status?

Prophet and potential witness of the two witnesses, Bob Thiel, talks some more about himself and how Gaylyn Bonjour from LCG HQ is the cause behind is new found "prophet" status.

• On the morning of December 15, 2011, upon arriving at the Charlotte HQ of LCG, Bob Thiel asked to meet with Gary Ehman as he wanted to get anointed for some non-debilitating matters as well as to ask him to pray that he be granted wisdom for his meetings with the HQ evangelists.  But he was not in.  So instead, Bob Thiel asked to meet with Gaylyn Bonjour (with whom he never had any discussions prior about him possibly being some type of prophet).  Bob Thiel asked Gaylyn Bonjour if he would do the anointing and pray that God would grant him wisdom for the meetings.  He agreed.  But while laying hands upon Bob Thiel, Gaylyn Bonjour also happened (it was not planned nor did Bob Thiel say anything to encourage this) to ask God to grant Bob Thiel a “double-portion” of His Holy Spirit and anointed him.  Bob Thiel then attended a meeting with the evangelists and he did not then have time to discuss what this might mean with Gaylyn Bonjour.
• On Sunday 12/18/11 night at a family wedding reception, without discussing the matter, Bob Thiel stared at Gaylyn Bonjour for a few moments, without saying anything and then asked, “Do you have any idea of what you may have accidently done?”  Gaylyn Bonjour said, “Yes, I think so.”
• The following Monday morning was Bob Thiel's first opportunity to speak with Gaylyn Bonjour privately for more details about the anointing.  Bob Thiel asked him if it was his practice to pray that God grant a double-portion of His Spirit to people that he anoints, he said, no he had never done that for an individual before.  Bob Thiel asked him if he had any idea of what he may have been inadvertently led by God to do, and he said yes.  Gaylyn Bonjour also said that the only “double-portion” he recalled from the Bible was when Elisha became the replacement prophet and ecclesiastical leader for Elijah (2 Kings 2:9)—Bob Thiel told him then that this was his recollection as well.  Notice it was Gaylyn Bonjour, and not Bob Thiel, who first stated this as a conclusion.
• In March 2012, it seemed time to mention the 12/15/11 anointing and what Bob Thiel had tried to tell him about his wife to Dr. Meredith and he was able to do so in telephone conversation.  Yet, first Bob Thiel called Gaylyn Bonjour to let him know that someone may end up talking with him about the anointing.  Gaylyn Bonjour was fine with that and also said that he felt that the “double-portion” was related to “the passing of the mantle.”  This gave Bob Thiel a lot of pause to consider since that time.
• On March 23, 2012, Dr. Meredith called Bob Thiel and Bob Thiel mentioned the anointing, some of Gaylyn Bonjour’s comments, and the prediction related to Dr. Meredith's wife.  The biggest concern Dr. Meredith seemed to raise was that the anointing was from someone below evangelist or regional pastor level.  But biblically, as he knows, only a member of the eldership is required to anoint one as a prophet (cf. 1 Timothy 4:14) or apostle (cf. Acts 9:10-17).
• In April 2012, during normal personal Bible study, Bob Thiel was reminded about the time when Jehu dismissed an anointing to become king by one of God’s servants because he thought the man was some kind of a nut (2 Kings 9:11).  There were apparently higher ranking ecclesiastical authorities at that time that God did not as directly use.  Yet, that did not change the fact of the ordination, and Jehu became king (and no, this document is not trying to say that Gaylyn Bonjour is some kind of a nut, only that when he performed the anointing he was a duly ordained minister of the Living Church of God and once hands are laid upon someone, this cannot be undone)—hence Bob Thiel concluded that it would be wrong and quite presumptuous of him to overlook or somehow discount what was done.  He personally had been cautious about whether or not he was possibly some type of an evangelizing prophet and getting an unexpected anointing suggesting that role from someone who had no idea that Bob Thiel was praying about that, or possibly in that role, indicated that this could not be ignored.  This seemed to be God’s timing and answer.  Especially because Bob Thiel had prayed about this so much in November and December 2011.
• On June 29, 2012, Bob Thiel conveyed to Gaylyn Bonjour, Dr. Winnail's written comment in that letter suggestion that the conclusion as to what happened when he was anointed by Gaylyn Bonjour on 12/15/12 was “presumptuous.”   Gaylyn Bonjour found it astounding that Dr. Winnail would have indicated that Bob Thiel may have been presumptuous about this.  Gaylyn Bonjour felt that Bob Thiel was exercising proper caution and that to ignore what happened would seem to be against the will, and possibly plan, of God.  Gaylyn Bonjour also stated to Bob Thiel that it is God, and not men, who “appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets“ (1 Corinthians 12:28).
• On August 26, 2012, shortly after agreeing that a variety of errors that Bob Thiel brought up needed to be corrected, Dr. Winnail told Bob Thiel, “We all think that you might be a prophet.”  In order in order to determine who “We all” was, on September 7, 2012, Bob Thiel asked if this was a reference to all three of the LCG Charlotte-based evangelists and Dr. Winnail concurred.

United Church of God on David Barrett's Book About WCG/COG Implosion

UCG has some interesting comments about David Barrett's new book.  Mike Snyder has made a great observation about the break up of the Worldwide Church of God and how it was horribly mishandled.

Book Review - The Fragmentation of a Sect: Schism in the Worldwide Church of God

Michael Snyder notes that the book is a sweeping and generally balanced secular review of the history and behavioral record of the Worldwide Church of God and its related organizations, particularly the disastrous and ill-conceived WCG breakup. For many, reading the book will likely be a painful experience, as while the book is not an “expose,” it does chronicle shortcomings of WCG and other offshoot leaders.

Book Information

Author
David V. Barrett

Publisher
Oxford University Press, USA

Publication Date
2013-01-02

ISBN
019986151X

Recommendation

Michael Snyder recommends this book.

Hardcover, 302 pages

Centered on a secular analysis of what has to be one of the world's most spectacular failures in change management, sociologist and British journalist David Barrett chronicles in this new work how successors to Herbert W. Armstrong deliberately deployed a non-biblical logic of "the end justifies the means" to essentially reverse the theological course of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG).  As Barrett painfully drills deep, the reader sees that instead of bringing the majority of WCG members to a new understanding of Jesus Christ, the incomprehensible act shattered the lives of multiple thousands, leaving in its turbulent wake freshly minted angry skeptics and agnostics, now hostile to God. Perhaps worst of all, as Barrett eloquently outlines, the wholesale betrayal of trust set in motion predictable human patterns where former leaders and ministers skip from church group to church group, finally claiming the "authoritative mantle" of Herbert Armstrong (HWA) for themselves and setting up a "new" one-man rule over an all-new religious group or splinter (page 209).

How quick we forget that Mike was also part of this break up and was the public face for the changes for quit some time. He, along with David Hulme were active participants in the turbulence that left lives shattered.

Mike continues with:

The book has already been reviewed by a number of prominent religious figures, including James Tabor, a liberal American theologian who once served on the Ambassador College faculty. The fact that Oxford University Press has published the book virtually guarantees that it will receive serious attention as an authoritative work on WCG, UCG and other WCG-related organizations.  However, Barrett recognizes that many American evangelical figures regarded the shattering of the Worldwide Church of God  as a politically positive event, noting: "It is a truism that history is written by the victors, and in the case of books about the changes in Worldwide (Tkach 1997, Feazell 2003, etc.) this is at least partially valid" (page 245). Perhaps the true “ironic dynamic” of this phenomenon appears as the catastrophic failure of post-HWA WCG leaders to achieve the religious goals for the majority of members, all of whom had contributed more than $1 billion in tithe contributions in the post-HWA years, but for most now had little to show for it.

"Most have little to show for it."  How true that comment is! There is nothing left but framed pictures on office walls and trophy cases filled with memento's gathering dust, unseen by all.