Why we will not be “God as God is God” – Part 2

“And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them”.

From a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus. (Luke:43-44)

 

                               Why we will not be “God as God is God” – Part 2

Against the Armstrongist Doctrine of Becoming God

By Scout

“God then purposed to reproduce himself, through humans, made in his image and likeness…” - Herbert W. Armstrong, Mystery of the Ages, p. 94, 1985. 

“It cannot be repeated too often:  We were born for the express purpose of literally becoming equal with the creator of the universe — members in the same eternally ruling God Family-Kingdom. But what will we be like?  Like God!  Exactly! Exactly like God!”  - Robert L. Kuhn, “What it Means to be – Equal with God”, Tomorrow’s World Magazine, April 1971.

“Thus said the Lord, The King of Israel, their Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, I am the first and the last, and there is no God but me…”  -  Isaiah 44:6, Jewish Study Bible, Second Edition.  

 

Part 1 is at: Why We will not be “God as God is God” – Part 1   

Section I (Continued): Ontological Differences between God and Resurrected Humans

Ontology refers to God’s eternal existential nature and essence. I believe this roughly corresponds to Robert L. Kuhn’s concept of being “qualitatively” like God. The question we seek to resolve is whether resurrected humans are ontologically the same as God. If resurrected humans are different from God ontologically, then the God-as-is-God trope fails. Below are some points at issue:

God is not constructed of parts and humans are: Humans are dependent on the functioning of internal body parts for life to be sustained. We are contingent on a beating heart. God does not have parts in his essence. He is not a composite. He is what Thomas Aquinas calls a simple being. A simple being is a free, necessary being. If God is reliant on eternal parts to sustain life, then he is not necessary. He is dependent on something and this means that he is not all powerful. And then there is the chicken and egg crisis. Did the necessary heart, if there were such, come first or did the necessary God come first? And then there is the origin question. Who designed and created the heart so God could have life? These are other similar questions must be resolved in order to support the theory that God has a composite body. 

 
Humans will have an embodied resurrection as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15. The implication of this, drawing on our human experience, is that we will be dependent on our bodies for the full experience of life. We might use the term “packaged” instead of embodied. Our sensory capabilities, for instance, will be packaged in our resurrection bodies. We will have seeing eyes. I doubt they will be there just for ornamentation. Maybe we will have super eyesight that we cannot now imagine but this sense will be implemented in our eyes. An embodied resurrection implies that our bodies will not be superfluous but will be an essential package of capabilities and attributes.

Jesus is fully God and fully man. He is God in essence but also has a body. We will have a body like his in the resurrection (Philippians 3:21). Jesus in his resurrected human manifestation ate fish with the disciples. This implies that his resurrection body had some internal parts that handled the processing of the fish like a human body, even though such processing might be very different from the processing we know. But Jesus, unlike us, is also fully God and so eating fish does not mean he is dependent on bodily functions such as food and a digesting stomach.

Further, if we are comprised of sarx (flesh), psuche (animating principle) and pneuma (spirit), as people in the time of Jesus believed, then our resurrected bodies will also be an assembly of parts. We will lose the perishable parts (sarx and psuche as the ancients believed) and these will be replaced by similar non-perishable parts in which the non-perishable pneuma (pneuma being our personality, consciousness, intellection and mentation) will be housed. At a minimum, in the resurrection humans will consist of two parts: resurrection body and pneuma. If God is not dependent on bodily parts and resurrected humans will be dependent on parts in their resurrected state, then resurrected humans will be ontologically different from God.

 
God alone is self-existent: God the Father is self-existent (John 5:26). Jesus in his pre-existent state as the Logos was self-existent (John 1:4). Jesus, fully God and fully man, in his present state is self-existent (John 5:26). Paul wrote, in Timothy 6:16, of God “Who only hath immortality (athanasia)”. The Persons of God are self-existent because they are uncreated. Humans will always possess a derivative and contingent existence because they are created (Col 1:16-17), whether in the flesh and blood state or the resurrected state. The uncreated God will create resurrected human beings but it stands to reason that he can also reverse the process and terminate resurrected human beings if he ever so willed. It is not logical that God could do something that he could not undo. This would violate his absoluteness. Because humans, even resurrected humans, have imparted life sustained by God rather than inherent, uncreated life, they are ontologically different from God.

Other issues could be considered. But for purposes of an elementary proof this should suffice. The upshot is that human beings in their resurrected state will substantially differ from God in ontology. And because the difference is in ontology, the very predicate of being, resurrected human beings will not be different from God in just degree but in category. Resurrected human beings will not be equal to God in any sense. They will be subordinate to God both ontologically and economically.

Section II: Our Participation in the Divine Economy

While resurrected humans are not going to share the ontology of God in the future, resurrected humans will share in the divine economy – what Kuhn refers to as being quantitatively like God. Resurrected humans will be immortal, not through self-existence, but through the faithful sustaining of God. Resurrected humans will be equipped for usefulness and servant leadership. And I expect God will delegate to resurrected humans work and responsibilities at a level that is appropriate. What resurrected humans do will be a finite and quantitative involvement and it will be spectacular, but it will not even remotely rise to the level of being God. Everything that God delegates to resurrected human beings will be something he could have done himself. Borrowing a concept from C.S. Lewis, God will give us the dignity of causation. He could do it all himself but he is going to let us participate.

Section III: Why Armstrongism Created the God-as-God-is-God Concept (God Reproducing Himself)

I don’t know.

Coda

God-as-God-is-God is something that even Armstrongists do not believe in without qualification. Robert L. Kuhn gave expanded definition to this topic back in the Seventies and stated that resurrected humans will have equality with God qualitatively (ontologically) but not quantitatively (in economy). It is actually the case that resurrected humans will be neither qualitatively nor quantitatively, in Kuhn’s parlance, equal to God. The equality term drops out of the equation. Resurrected humans will participate in the divine economy to a degree but will not be like God ontologically – like what he is in his existential nature. Resurrected humans will not be equal to God in the essence of his being but like him in the application of his energies – much scaled down. The God-as-God-is-God mantra should be replaced by simply referring to resurrected Christians as the “children of God” as the Bible most often does – partakers in but not full possessors of the Divine Nature. Being a child of God is not a bad future.

 
Afterword

I believe Armstrongists are unique among those who profess to believe in the God of the Bible in that to assert that God is actually much greater than what HWA thought him to be makes them angry. They seem to want to believe in a limited God who is nothing more than a more powerful human being. It’s as if God is just the big kid on the block. The big kid is just like all the little guys, he is just bigger and so gets his way. But one day, the little guys grow up. This reductionism applied to God, making God to be in our image, makes the idea of God-as-God-is-God seem attainable for humans. Armstrongists can be just like the big kid – maybe so close to being like God, it’s not worth mentioning – perhaps, differing in only a quarter of inch in height. Not only would they rather believe HWA’s words than the Bible, HWA’s homespun words actually suit them – it matches how they want to think about God. But, alas, God is absolute and scales of measurement do not apply to him and Armstrongists need to seriously revise their Doctrine of God if they continue to hold these views.

Kuhn, Robert L. “What it Means to be – Equal with God”, Tomorrow’s World Magazine, April 1971.

 

Sproul, R.C. “What’s the Difference Between the Ontological and Economic Trinity?”: 

Note: This essay analyzes the doctrine of becoming God as presented in Classical Armstrongism. Robert L. Kuhn published in the Seventies.  I do not know how denominations derived from the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) now state this doctrine. Also, the words “ontology” and “economy”, in the theological sense, are nowhere used in Armstrongist literature that I can find.

 

 

Gloria in Excelsis Deo

Gerald Flurry: I'm Ok Being A Cult Leader Because Christ Was One Too!

Nothing infuriates Church of God splinter group leaders more than having their little groups referred to as a cult. How dare people do such a thing! After all, Christ was a cult leader just like they are. Since he preaches just like Christ did (supposedly), they are in the same boat that he was when it comes to having epitaphs hurled at them. The problem with that reasoning is not one single COG splinter group leader preaches Christ or even knows him intimately. The new has never been made new and the old still remains old. The new covenant is borderline blasphemy while the old covenant reigns supreme and kills the heart and soul.

When Flurry took his cult to Edmond Oklahoma and started his building campaigns, the local citizenry took notice. Area newspapers and news stations started exposing him in glaring details. That still pushes Flurry's buttons today, much like Bob Thiel still overreacting to Living Church of God kicking him to the curb.

This week Flurry sent out a rerun of his 2007 article whining about the persecution from the local news sources.

Back in 1994, a local newspaper published an article about the Philadelphia Church of God. The author titled the article, “Is It a Cult or ‘God’s Church’?” One subhead was about our unorthodox beliefs—as if that is bad. Webster’s Dictionary describes a cult as “a group with unorthodox beliefs.”

Jesus Christ had unorthodox beliefs! They were so unorthodox that they eventually got Him killed! And make no mistake about it, Christ was killed because of what He taught. The people liked Christ’s personality. “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” (Luke 2:52). But they hated His message—and they hate Christ’s message today. That condition never changes. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever” (Hebrews 13:8).

Armstrongism has hated the New Covenant message for decades and still does today. Talk about grace, sanctification, and justification and their noses curl up in mocking disdain. In their eyes, grace is nothing more than the license to sin. Christians are sinners while they, the near-perfect law keepers are the true Christians who conveniently ignore that they are constantly breaking the very law they hawk in their magazines and sermons. A set of laws that none of them keep or can ever keep properly. Heck, they can't even keep the sabbath properly and constantly look to find all kinds of convenient ways to do what they want that day.

Which group hated Christ most of all? The religious people were the ones screaming, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!” False religion continues to play that role today—all over the world. “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world …” (Revelation 12:9). Satan has totally deceived this world. The world’s religions don’t know who God is! Spiritually, they don’t even know themselves!

Flurry and his ilk continue to play the role today of deceiving the world about Jesus. They have no idea who he is because they do not even know themselves! Even the most nominal Christians know far more about Jesus and the New Covenant than any COG leader can ever claim to know.

The reporter had this to say in his article: “During the mid-1950s, he [Mr. Armstrong] published a pamphlet entitled, ‘1975 in Prophecy.’ It warned of a worldwide nuclear war in 1972 and Christ’s return three years later. … When the world didn’t end on schedule, Armstrong withdrew his pamphlet from circulation.” I was asked about this statement before the article was published. I told the reporter that not one of Mr. Armstrong’s critics could prove that statement about the book and they never have over the years! That is because Mr. Armstrong never said those events would occur on those dates. There was only speculation that those events could happen in that time period. I took the time to explain this in detail. The reporter still wrote the same statement without proof. And so the error is perpetuated without excuse! But reporters read such statements and often believe them because there are several critics making these claims. If people hear a statement frequently enough, they often believe it.

See how easily and deceitfully they jump around Herb's false prophecy that the church promoted in the 70's. Flurry and others continue to LIE that Herb and the church ever said such things as fact. 

Religion today has a similar problem. They have heard false teachings for years and they believe these false doctrines rather than what the Bible actually teaches. It will take years for these people to unlearn the errors before they can be deeply taught God’s truth! 

False teachers in the Church of God movement have had a field day over the last few decades as many of them set off on their own in self-righteous indignation and formed new splinter personality cults. They follow the supposed "rediscovery" of lost doctrines and teachings, that God was so incompetent in preserving for 1,900 years, till Herb found it in a Portland library in the 1930's. It has taken COG members decades to discard those erroneous teachings and unlearn the lies and half-truths the church taught.  

One religious author says a cult “is a perversion, a distortion of biblical Christianity and/or a rejection of the historic teachings of the Christian church.” But this is a great contradiction! “Historic teachings” of today’s “Christianity” itself pervert and distort “biblical Christianity”! Their “biblical Christianity” means mainstream Christianity, which is very unbiblical! 

Note the following on how pseudo-Christian cult leaders like Flurry manipulate followers:

"In recent international scientific literature, the authors, for reasons of tolerance and political correctness, normally tend to use such term as the New Religious Movements (NRM). There are a lot of law-abiding, non-violent citizens among the followers of the new occult, mystical, teachings, and postmodern concepts, while a certain percentage of active followers being overt criminals. We fully share the position of those scientists who have a comprehensive approach to this issue, avoiding a biased attitude, or any one-sided tendency to blame all NRM followers [17, 18].

The criminals of the 21st century, who act under the guise of missionaries, preachers, gurus, or spiritual mentors are highly professional. They resort to deception or breach of trust with a wide range of means and techniques, such as persuasion, hypnosis, threats/intimidation (mental violence). But it is the manipulation technologies that are the most efficient and widespread.

Once a victim joins a sect, the organizers do their best to kill his/her moral and ethical attitudes and form emotional dependence on the criminal leader (guru) or the most influential members of the group [19-21]. Such manipulations deprive mentally competent people of the ability to act on their own, turning them into demotivated creatures. The scope of their interests dramatically degrades, with the progressive destruction of the goal-setting ability. Further on, new incentive functions, crucial motives, conclusions (such as you’ve made the right choice) are imposed, and a total restructuring of the victims' conceptual hierarchy takes place. The victim's mindset is deprived of flexibility, logic, and criticality. With all consequent, regular manipulative impacts on the cognitive sphere of victims, the criminals get full control over the helpless state of the followers, making the sect members always committed only to the destructive behaviour model [22-24]."

A little later in the same paper, there is this:

What drives people who being competent turn to semi-legal (sometimes forbidden, destructive and nonconventional) cults, or pseudo-religious groups? 

 

Consider the subjective circumstances. Firstly, it is the boredom, the idle curiosity, the wish to touch something mysterious, exotic, or merely find some new, unconventional sources of information. The second circumstance is the fact that some people get disappointed in the traditional religions and family values. They feel frustrated about their lives facing a deep spiritual crisis. They try to overcome their frustration and get away from all problems by finding their soul mates. The third circumstance (however paradoxical it may seem) is the desire of some creatively thinking young people (especially those impulsive, prone to making snap decisions, but with no sufficient knowledge on manipulation) to grasp the true essence of the world. Such people are not satisfied with their role as consumers of information garbage. They want to be thoughtful observers of what is happening around them. Therefore, they address sectarians to get the answers to their questions. The fourth circumstance is an evident manifestation of the age-old prejudices and superstitions, which are still very much alive within all social groups and do not depend on the level of education, intelligence, or life experience of an individual. People still believe that esotericism can save them from all their trials and tribulations [48, 49]. Objective circumstances include effective ways to influence the psyche, as well as content created at a professional level. Destructive content captures the imagination of a person and deprives him of criticism. Victims lose the ability to act on their own [50, 51]. Destructive nature of manipulative content, created by leaders of totalitarian pseudo- religious cults

Today's members in groups like the Philadelphia Church of God, Restored Church of God, and the improperly named "continuing" Church of God have lost their ability to act on their own. To think and discern rationally is anathema to the great leader had his demands.

Flurry continues: 

According to the world’s definitions of a cult, Jesus Christ was a cult leader. We must remember that making such statements can bring severe persecution! Christ proved that. He was killed for what He taught. But soon, this world is going to be severely tried for practicing such gross deceit.

Yes, Christ was killed for what he taught, but Church of God leaders will not be persecuted for being Christ's followers when they do not even know the guy. The current "persecutions" today's COG leaders all whine about has nothing to do with "preaching boldly" but everything to do with the asinine teacings they foster off as 1st-century truths

Former WCG Member Lacking In Common Sense Asks Crackpot Prophet Which COG He/She Should Attend

 

The Great Bwana to Africa and 100 Caucasians posted a "letter" he claims to have received from a former Worldwide Church of God member supposedly asking him which Church of God he/she should attend and support. While I know this is a rerun of a rerun of a rerun, it is still an appalling letter.

This is truly pathetic that a human being with a supposed mental capacity to make decisions and use wise discernment has to ask a certified false prophet and self-appointed splinter group leader what to do! This is appalling in so many ways, not only for this individual but for Bwana Bob too. The Great Bwana Bob Mzungu thought it was a wise thing to post such a humiliating letter of a former member who was incapable of using wise discernment, a person who could not discern which COG to attend and was even blinded to Bwana Bob's cult, the one and only TRUE Church of God. Apparently running the greatest Church of God in human history had no meaning to this poor former WCG member.

He posts:

A while back, I received an email from a former Worldwide Church of God member that included the following:

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT SOME ISSUES OF MR. …. BELIEF AND APPARENTLY YOU DON’T AGREE WITH. I DON’T THINK THAT ANY OF THESE CHURCHES AGREE WITH OTHER SO WHO DO YOU GO WITH? … 

 

SOME OF GERALD FLURRY’S TEACHINGS ARE COMPLETELY WRONG AND HE’S GONE FAR OUT ON SOME THINGS SUCH AS ARMSTRONG’S STONE REPLACING JACOB’S. MANY, MANY PLACES IN THE BIBLE STATES THAT CHRIST IS THAT ROCK AND IT’S SPIRITUAL. CHRIST DOESN’T NEED A ROCK. FLURRY BASED HIS THEORY ON THE IDEA THAT COME KIDS STOLE JACOB’S ROCK FROM ENGLAND. THAT’S AMAZING SINCE IT WEIGHS OVER 350 LBS. I’VE READ OTHER LITERATURE THAT THE STONE IS STORED IN SCOTLAND.FALSE PREACHER #1 

 

I SAW A DAVID PACK SERMON ON THE INTERNET ABOUT THE 2 WITNESSES . HE SAID THAT THEY ARE IN HIS CHURCH RIGHT NOW. I BELIEVE HE’S NOW PULLED THAT SERMON BECAUSE I COULDKN’T FIND IT NOW. FALSE PREACHER #2 

 

I SAW A SERMON BY THE LIVING CHURCH OF GOD ABOUT THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND THE PRESENTER SAID WITHOUT HESITATION THAT THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS SUNDAY WORSHIP. PERIOD.. HE MADE NO MENTION OF ANY MARKS ON YOUR BODY OR 666. SABBATH MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, BUT THERE WILL BE OTHER FACTORS. YOU LEFT BECAUSE OF DOCTRINE. I’LL ????????? …. 

 

NOW I COME TO … A FALSE TEACHER … 

 

YOU SEE HOW A PERSON COULD BE DECEIVED? 

 

PLEASE ADVISE

It boggles my mind that this person had to ask Bwana Bob what to do. This is one of the marks of cults where members cannot make decisions on their own without getting permission from the leadership.

After another little bitchfest about how the Living Church of God ignored him, he wrote:

Anyway, here is what I responded to the former WCG member with:

Dear …: 

 

As I have repeatedly written at COGwriter, I doubt that David Pack or Gerald Flurry are converted.

I consider that the only COG that is Philadelphian is the CCOG–though not all in CCOG are Philadelphian and there are Philadelphians not in CCOG–but no other COG represents the continuation of Philadelphia. 

 

You should use God’s criteria, and none other to decide. 

 

Here are two links you should read and pray about if you are truly serious: How does the Continuing Church of God differ from other Sabbatarian COG groups? 

 

Does the CCOG have the confirmed signs of Acts 2:17-18? (hyperlinks deliberately removed)

 

But most refuse to believe and use their own standards. 

 

Best regards,

Bob Thiel

P.S. The same former WCG member sent me a follow-up email after I posted this. Here is some of what he wrote (Note: This is a different Mr. … in a different COG than the one alluded to above):

ALSO, I’M NOT HAPPY WITH … IN THIS RESPECT—–I’VE BEEN IN THE CHURCH FOR A WHILE AND ONE OF THE 1ST THINGS I NOTICED IS THAT THEY HAVE LEFT OUT 1/3RD OF THE BIBLE AND THAT PERTAINS TO PROPHECY. I KNOW THIS PANDEMIC CAUGHT THEM UNAWARE AS MR. … DIDN’T CALL FOR A PRAYER AND FAST INTIL THE PANDEMIC WAS IN FULL FORCE. SOME WATCHMAN

I WROTE A PERSONAL LETTER TO MR. … ADVISING HIM THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS TO BE TAUGHT, AND HE NEEDS TO CRY OUT AND SPARE NOT. THE LATEST ISSUE OF OUR MAGAZINE FINALLY WOKE THEM UP AS THERE WERE SEVERAL MEANINGFUL ARTICLES REGARDING THE TIMES AND PROPHECY ALSO, HE SAID THAT THEY NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB IN BEING A WATCHMAN. THIS IS THE 1ST TIME IN 25 YEARS THAT THEY STARTED TO WAKE UP ON PROPHECY. 

 

My response to the above was to tell him that the COG he attends as well as a group that came out of it do not teach much about prophecy. They also have a lot of prophetic errors. For details on 50+ prophetic errors that the groups other than CCOG have...

One of the biggest false prophets and liars about prophecy is condemning other COG's because they don't talk about prophecy as he does. Some things in Armstrongism never change!

The absurdities in Bob's article ends with this gem of nonsense:

Which Church would Jesus Choose?
If you are looking for a true Christian church, how should you choose? Should you choose based upon any building(s) used? Is the criteria in the Bible? What are some widespread ‘doctrines’ that many churches teach that were not part of the original faith? Do Christians go to heaven upon death? Were early Christians militaristic? What about tradition? This animation addresses those issues and more.

I can state for a fact that Jesus would NOT choose any of the Churches of God considering the pathetic state they are all in, especially Bob Thiel's nightmare of false Christianity.