And Bob, If You Didn't Get It The First Time

How NOT to Study The Bible

"Whom will He teach knowledge? 

And whom will He make to understand the message? 

Those just weaned from milk? 

Those just drawn from the breasts? 

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,

line upon line, line upon line,

here a little, there a little" 

(Isaiah 28:9-10). 

If you don't know the above scripture, then you can not have been part of the Worldwide Church of God or a current member of its many splinter and sliver groups.  This scripture ranks right up there with, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it," and "So how did you come into the truth?"

Many fundamentalists misuse this scripture in Isaiah thinking it is the key to understanding just how to unlock the mysteries of doctrine and truth or to solve the puzzle that God has put before us to figure out.  If we only study our Bibles taking a little from here and a little from there, properly combining the elements in to the true right and correct picture, we win!!!   It implies that truth is found scattered throughout the Bible and one simply needs to prooftext their way through the pages of the Bible properly, and the truth shall set them free.

That's the good news.  The bad news is that it has NOTHING to do with how to study your Bible.  Lets look at this scripture in context.  I know, I know...but give it a try anyway...

 ⁷ And these (Prophets and Priests) also stagger from wine
   and reel from beer:
   Priests and prophets stagger from beer
   and are befuddled with wine;
   they reel from beer,
   they stagger when seeing visions,
   they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
   and there is not a spot without filth.

 ⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
   To whom is he explaining his message?
   To children weaned from their milk,
   to those just taken from the breast?
¹⁰ For it is:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
   a little here, a little there.”

 ¹¹ Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
   God will speak to this people,
¹² to whom he said,
   “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
   and, “This is the place of repose”—
   but they would not listen.
¹³ So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that;
   a little here, a little there—
   so that as they go they will fall backward;
   they will be injured and snared and captured

What we're seeing here is God mocking the priests and mimicking their drunken rules and laws that they give the people. God is not paying them a compliment but it is rather like God saying they go  "blah blah blah," or talk like whining children in their drunken state.  It has nothing to do with some profound teaching on the correct way to cobble the scriptures together to come up with truth.  They teach the people like they are children and this is not a compliment.

Isaiah then goes on to say that God can play that game too if they wish,  and will tell them to "do this, do that, a bit here, a bit there," and they will fall backwards and be overcome by God.  In other words, God can take the childish, "blah blah blah" out of their way of teaching and knock them out some of his own. 

 Barnes Commentary notes:

"For precept must be upon precept - This is probably designed to ridicule the concise and sententious manner of the prophets, and especially the fact that they dwelt much upon the same elementary truths of religion. In teaching children we are obliged to do it by often repeating the same simple lesson. So the profane and scoffing teachers of the people said it had been with the prophets of God. It had been precept upon precept, and line upon line, in the same way as children had been instructed. The meaning is, 'there is a constant repetition of the command, without ornament, imagery, or illustration; without an appeal to our understanding, or respect for our reason; it is simply one mandate after another, just as lessons are inculcated upon children.'

Line upon line - This word (קו qav), properly means "a cord, a line;" particularly a measuring cord or line (2 Kings 21:13; Ezekiel 47:13; see the note at Isaiah 18:2). Here it seems to be used in the sense of "a rule," "law," or "precept." Grotius thinks that the idea is taken from schoolmasters who instruct their pupils by making lines or marks for them which they are to trace or imitate. There is a repetition of similar sounds in the Hebrew in this verse which cannot be conveyed in a translation, and which shows their contempt in a much more striking manner than any version could do -" 

While perhaps not the most recommended translation, this one has captured, in this case the intent of the scripture.

               "They speak utter nonsense. "             

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

So the next time your Pastor says, "We know how we are study God's word.  It is line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, There a little, and God will reveal his truth to us, his chosen ones,"  just say "ummmm, no....that's not what that means." 

God doesn't have a puzzle to solve and the true people are not defined as those who know how the puzzle all fits together by jumping around the Bible looking for the proof for their all too often human perceptions. You certainly cannot use this scripture in Isaiah to do that as if it was how God reveals truth. 

Pretty cool huh?   I got more!  :)

DenniscDiehl@aol.com

Apostate Self Appointed False Prophet Bob Thiel Outraged At Dennis Diehl

Things are not rosy in Arroyo Grande this evening.  Almost arrested Elisha Elijah Joshua Amos Habakkuk Bob Thiel is not taking too kindly to Dennis Diehl.

The apostate self appointed false prophet Habakkuk Thiel had this to say:

Former Worldwide Church of God minister Dennis Diehl has a history of posting negative comments about me over at the
Banned by HWA website. 

Of course, he is not alone in this. Many apostates and unbelievers at that website have done the same. And for people “whose minds the god of this age has blinded” (2 Corinthians 4:4), will not believe. 

But I thought that perhaps readers would like to see some of what Dennis Diehl posted concerning biblical interpretation and why the approach used at the COGwriter and CCOG websites is correct. 

On January 14, 2017, I posted information about the Hebrew prophet Habakkuk in a post titled Do you take seriously the warnings God had the prophet Habakkuk record? 

The webmaster at the Banned by HWA site, Gary Leonard posted about my post in an article later that day titled “Habakkuk Is Now In Our Midst! Heed His Warnings!.” The next day, Dennis Diehl posted the following comment in response:

 DennisCDiehl said…
“For I will work a work IN YOUR DAYS Which you would not believe, though it were told you. 6 For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places that are not theirs” 

Context, context, context

The apostate self appointed leader of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God did not take too kindly to Dennis emphasizing the "in your days" in the above Bible quote. How dare Dennis imply that apostate Thiel might be wrong.

Notice how Dennis Diehl emphasized the words IN YOUR DAYS related to Habakkuk 1:5 (which my article quoted) and emphasized context. 

His implication is that Habakkuk’s message was only for his day and my writing that we need to pay attention to Habakkuk’s message today is essentially unfounded. 

Could Dennis Diehl be correct about this? 

No. 

Why? 

Because there are other scriptures that demonstrate otherwise. For example, the Apostle Paul quoted Habakkuk 1:5 as having applicability centuries after Habakkuk died:

41 ‘Behold, you despisers,
Marvel and perish!
For I work a work in your days,
A work which you will by no means believe,
Though one were to declare it to you.‘” (Acts 13:41)

The self appointed apostate then gets all pissy because Dennis and the rest of us refusing to acknowledge that he is a prophet and that we despise his prophecies because we all supposedly do not understand "doctrine."  We have all seen over the many decades of the church how doctrine was bastardized and turned into the most dangerous weapons imaginable.  People have literally died in the church because of lying prophets, evangelists, ministers and "pastor generals" saying things they knew nothing about or taught aberrant doctrines.

Yet, many, sadly, do despise prophecies, including those from Habakkuk. 

As far as Habakkuk goes, he also was told by God that he was writing prophecies for the appointed time of the end:

2 Then the Lord answered me and said: “Write the vision And make it plain on tablets, That he may run who reads it. 3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time; But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; Because it will surely come, It will not tarry. 4 “Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:2-4) 

Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10, KJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The doubly blessed dream weaver then really took umbrage at Dennis lumping the apostate false prophet in with the theologically bankrupt ministers like Meredith, Flurry and Pack.  How dare Dennis do such a thing!  Amos Thiel is God's end time personally appointed prophet of the "truth once delivered."  Even worse, Dennis pointed out how poorly trained Habakkuk Thiel is in exegesis and Christology.  How can a person who waves his big thick Bible not know anything about it?  Elisha Thiel cannot understand how he can be so theologically bankrupt.

Not satisfied to comment about my position on Habakkuk, Dennis Diehl later (1/18/17) lumped me in with a bunch of others, and posted the following at the Banned by HWA:

The hard facts are that the neither the original ministry of the Worldwide Church of God nor ANY of the resulting leadership/ministry of the splits, splinters and slivers, to this day, were properly trained in theological studies and it shows in everything from exegesis to their Christology. Their hermeneutics aren’t all that good either. Men such as Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Rod Meredith and Bob Thiel are “mere Bible readers”, as are the members, and are proof texters jumping around the Bible to conjure up their beliefs like the proverbial cat on a hot tin roof. They have no clue that their “here a little, there a little” is not the formula for how to arrive at the message of the Bible.
Line Upon Line: How NOT to Study The Bible
All of what Gerald Flurry, David C Pack, Roderick Meredith and Bob Thiel believe with regards to their unique selves and their message is simply bogus theology.

Apostate Thiel then has to defend his theological "training" that far exceeds any other ministers in the church, even though it comes from a diploma mill in India and a few selected classes at Fuller and elsewhere.  No real theological training.  No training in counseling.  Nothing other than Herbert Armstrong booklets and articles.  We have all seen how well that "training" has worked over the last 8 decades.

The self-appointed false prophet then makes the excuse that schooling in a real seminary is not worthwhile.

But Dennis Diehl’s position that attending the world’s theological institutions is what ministers need to do is simply not consistent with the Bible. 

It should also be mentioned that nearly all who have gone through the world’s theological seminaries have not properly learned how to interpret the Bible.

That last paragraph is a very accurate description of what has happened to everyone that went through Ambassador College learning theology.  Not a single one of them ever learned how to interpret the Bible.  Just imagine had Amos Thiel actually graduated from Ambassador, he would be worse than he is now!

Then the apostate goes on to whine about the church rejecting Herbert's teachings and embracing Christmas, Jesus and birthdays.  Those damn birthdays!  How dare people celebrate birthdays!  Herbert did, but that doesn't seem to matter.  

The doubly blessed false prophet then gets to the gist of the matter:

What is my point? 

While education can have value, ignoring the biblical admonition to look here a little and there a little to learn doctrine is appropriate.

Should you rely on the Bible and facts to understand doctrine or ‘traditions of men‘? 

Dennis Diehl is really advocating the latter, whereas I, Bob Thiel (aka COGwriter) advocate the former.

Using the Bible to interpret itself is a proper Christian ‘hermeneutic’ and is endorsed by scripture (Isaiah 28:9-10; Acts 17:10-13, 2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

Dennis Diehl and other anti-Church of God critics remain in my prayers. 

Dear Bob...I repeat:

"Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)"

 http://www.cogwriter.com/news/wcg-news/apostate-former-wcg-minister-challenges-cogwriters-biblical-interpretation-methods-which-should-you-believe/

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.