Saturday, October 29, 2016

The Church of God and Halloween Myths

Its that time of year again and various Church of God groups are starting their annual Halloween traditions.   Satan and his demons are pictured running rampant around the earth on this night looking for naive COG members so they can be swayed away from the "truth once delivered." Church of God members turn off their living rooms lights and slink back into the rear of their houses and try to hide from the evil knocking at their doors.  It's amazing how a church that claims to be God's one true restored church have allowed Satan to have so much power over them.  No other church on the earth has to deal with the constant attacks by Satan than the COG.  Satan is obviously more powerful than that inconvenient Jesus dude.

In 2011 I had the following quotes up from a Conservative COG Yahoo page.  These are the kinds of silliness that occupy the minds of Armstrongites this time of year.

No one ever said Armstrongites were not creative in their thinking!  Eating mice for Halloween?  I feel so left out all these years!

A different spin on it where the kids go trick or treating?
The church has never stated that. In the histories, when Jeroboam (I think) set up a golden calf in the north in Israel, it's been said that was at Halloween time. In any case, it was a different time than FoT, which it was made to replace.
I've also heard that this particular holiday was moved from May 1 and that originally it was a remembrance of the dead when Noah & family came out  of the Ark. Imagine how they must have felt, knowing every other living soul was dead... This is how dead became associated with the day. Perhaps.
Is Isaiah a reference to the ancient pagan festival now called halloween with a
Isaiah 66:17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves to enter the groves, imitating one in the center, eating the flesh of the swine, the reptile, and the mouse, shall one and all come to an end - declares the Lord. For I know their deeds and purposes.
We actually have COG members who believe kids eating candy are practicing an ancient custom of worshipping in the groves and that it originally was the day set apart by Noah to commemorate all the dead rotting bodies that covered the earth after the flood.

Here are some pithy says by Richard Ames of the Living Church of God:

Pithy sayings of Richard Ames, Living Church of God 
Should we follow our neighbors, like proverbial lemmings, off the dangerous cliff of pagan practices?

By observing Halloween, we teach our children to make light of Satan the Devil—or even to think like him! Should we then be surprised when our children remain curious about evil—or even invite it—for the rest of the year?

Do we teach our children to attract and cultivate evil spirits at Halloween? Certainly, dressing up like a demon or a witch invites evil rather than opposes it!

Some parents encourage their children to participate in the world of demons. Are some of you parents sacrificing your children to Satan and to wicked spirits

It’s time for such so-called Christians to repent of supporting the Devil and rebelling against Christ!
Dress you baby up for Halloween 
and they will end up devil babies! 

Many years ago Keith Stump, a former Plain Truth writer, penned an article about Halloween that sent diehard COG believers over the edge.  He pointed this out:

"To all COG members out there: 
Is your children’s Christianity so feeble as to be endangered 
by a plastic mask and a few candy bars? 
Are your children so inadequately grounded in their religion 
as to be tempted into a life of witchcraft by attending a costume party? 
Are you yourself so poorly rooted in your faith that you fear your children
 will ask questions to which you have no satisfactory answers?"

I have seen no evidence of children being psychologically warped or seduced into a life of witchcraft and perversion as a result of innocent Halloween activities. I HAVE, however, seen many fearful and superstitious COG children who have been conditioned to be abnormally hypersensitive to anything blackened with the feared label “occult”. One child in particular comes to mind, whom I witnessed shrieking in stark terror at the mere sight of a jack-o-lantern. Are you raising fearful children who, like medieval peasants, see Satan lurking behind every tree and demons skulking in every dark corner? Are you raising children who fear they will “open themselves up” to “demonic control” at any moment by the slightest misstep? What a tenuous, precarious and paranoid spirituality! Satan is a defeated enemy! We need not shrink inanimate mortal remains. Explain that fear of black cats is an ancient superstition of the ignorant. Talk to them about the fanciful creations of horror fiction, like werewolves and vampires. It’s healthy to examine the things that frighten us. Tell them about “ghosts” or disembodied spirits. (The dead are relatively safe; it’s the living you need to watch out for!) And talk to them about the subject of life after physical death. Tell them about the Lord of Life who overcame death. Assuage their fears about those who can kill the body but not the soul.
So here’s my point: Objection to Halloween is a reflection of something much broader: an obsession with trivialities, a confusion of priorities, a primitive fear of the unknown, an arrogance that finds “righteousness” in being odd-ball and out-of-step. Fundamentalists can find something offensive or objectionable in almost anything. They have a world view in which virtually everything is “anti-Christian”. They have lost the ability to filter the important from the inconsequential. The traditional COG prohibition against Halloween ignores the facts of history, misrepresents the modern holiday, and demonstrates a woeful lack of spiritual discernment. 

See:  Halloween Hysteria Is Back In The Churches of God Again

Is Halloween Evil?  Responding to UCG

Keeping Halloween Makes You think About Evil??


RSK said...

Destined to be a long and expansive thread.

RSK said...

NIMRODS TESTICLES... wait, wrong holiday. Well, its coming soon.

DennisCDiehl said...

Too many religious zealots who run on their emotions instead of their common sense and inability to think something through logically or critically give up the joy of living for the endless and unknowable future. They screw up their kids with "should not, must not" as if they knew and replace it with fairy tales of lesser value. They are so future oriented, which is more than a waste of time, they are of no present value.

Lighten up never seems to cross their minds or view life from the perspective of the child on whom they inflict their shallow proof texted beliefs. There is no Satan that is going to suck them into hell to serve him nor some jealous Deity up there who is just waiting for them to screw up and erase them from the magic books.

Life and memories for your kids contains no "repeat" button. Much if not most of what the COG's and head fools rant about is actually of no value, importance or consequence.

If Dave Pack can tell you to "Leave your minister out of this," I'd encourage RCG folks and their kids to just go out and enjoy being silly and have some fun, and "Leave Dave Pack out of this."

Anonymous said...

I grew up in a church family that cowered in the back room of the house on Halloween night. We kids would sneak upstairs and watch all of our friends in their costumes. I swore before I had kids that I would ever treat them like we were treated in the church. Our kids got to dress for Halloween in any kind of costume they wanted. They never turned into devil worshippers. They are upstanding young adults in their community.

Anonymous said...

Keith Stump is the sort of two-faced writer who could write against Halloween when he is being paid by Herbert W. Armstrong, but who is flexible enough to write in favor of Halloween when he is being paid by Joseph Tkach, Jr. The brief summary of it all is that whether or not you should observe Halloween depends entirely on who is currently paying Keith Stump to write about it.

After the massive and shocking January 1995 open apostasy by the Tkaches, I asked a WCG member who seemed to be going along with the doctrinal changes something like, “If the World's churches and their scholars know so much, then why do the World's churches and their members always seem to end up observing things like Halloween?” He sighed and said that, “They are entitled to some mistakes.”

One reason that Halloween is becoming such a big deal in the USA is that all sorts of stores will readily sell ugly junk to try to make a lousy dollar. Stores will gladly cater to people who are attracted to ugliness and evil if they think there is money to be made in it. Bookstores will happily pretend that they are serving their customers by selling books about witches, sorcerers, and vampires for their customers' children to grow up reading. And, of course, people will always argue that they are normal, decent, and good people no matter how badly they behave.

Those who hate what HWA taught might be a little bit more convincing if they had something better to offer in place of his teachings, rather than things like Halloween, witchcraft and sorcery, astrology and horoscopes, magic, seances, Ouija boards, and the occult. Pretending that these things are innocent and harmless pastimes is not totally convincing.

Anonymous said...

The real reason any Christian or even so called Christian should reject Halloween is because it mocks the resurrection. The night before all souls day people get out and mock the day that is intended on commemorating the raising of the dead.

All the other stuff is just bunk, what I wrote above though, should resonate with anyone who claims he or she is a Christian.

Thank you for reading....

Anonymous said...

All leaders must lead by example. As future leaders in Gods soon coming government, todays Christians must set the example by practising what they are going to preach in the millennium, ie no observance of pagan holidays. It has absolutely nothing to do with Herbie.
As far as hardship for kids is concerned, well tough! These children and their parents will be generously rewarded for their sacrifices in the near future.
Otherwise they will be accused of being hypocrites and crap artists for not having practised what they teach in the millennium.
No one likes or respects a crap artist.

Byker Bob said...

I like the idea of costumes, but it doesn't need to center around a particular day. Clothes are fun to play with. You can dress way down and almost look like one of the homeless, or clean it up with your three piece suit and appear as if you've just been to the Queen's Ball.

But, I really don't see the attraction of dressing up as a demon, a wolf, or a ghost. It used to be that there was mischief night when people would soap windows, smash pumpkins, egg cars, or toilet paper houses. Or, ignite a paper bag of excrement on someone's front porch, and ring the doorbell and watch from the bushes as they stomp it out. None of that stuff is cool in my book, because it's all destructive.

I tried to do the Halloween thing in a clean way with my son when he was young. We'd dress him up, and take him through the neighborhood, sometimes dressing up ourselves (A quick cowboy hat and mirror shades, and I'm Hank Jr,!), and have a great time. We'd carefully go through the treats making sure nobody had done something bad.

I think it's not so much the full brunt of the worst traditions, but what you personally extract and have fun with. There's good and bad in everything, because let's face it, sooner or later everything gets abused. But, you can concentrate your energies on the good aspects as you would with anything else in life.


RSK said...

Bahaha, the COGlodytes arent disappointing so far.

Anonymous said...

Gerald Flurry and Rod Meredith dress up as Christians every Sabbath, then for the rest of the week return to their regular dress as lying nepotistic respecters of persons. If they are allowed to play "pretend" on every weekly and annual Sabbath, why shouldn't members be allowed to play "pretend" on just one evening each year?

Anonymous said...

In the weeks before Passover, many ACOG ministers like to tell the story of Christ's crucifixion in a way that is more blood-soaked and gory and horror-filled than anything that will show up at your door on Halloween evening.

Many ACOG ministers also like to talk about the coming enslavement of Ephraim and Manasseh in ways that are as sickening as any R-rated horror movie.

How could any ACOG member be bothered by Halloween gore, when their own ministers have made it plain that their own God is planning to allow gruesome suffering to come upon Christians who are simply a little less perfect than the others who'll go to a Place of Safety? Yes, in ACOG theology, if you are a Laodicean, your God is Freddy Krueger. How can Halloween compare to that?

DennisCDiehl said...

In SC I was introduced to the Baptist concept of "Hell House". This was a place on Halloween illustrating for the children of the church and impressionable teens, the consequences of whatever the Baptists considered hell worthy sins. They did it up as horribly and with as much of a fright factor as possible. The actors were church members of course. At the end, was the final scenes from hell as they perceive it as good Baptists. On the way out, the child could "give his heart to the Jesus and be baptized and avoid it all. It was child abuse meant to disturb and coerce. In this case, it was fundamentalism that is the evil force in religion and not the harmless simplicity that is in Halloween for kids.

The Bible is repleat with demons, witches, murder and mahem. It has all the elements of other worldliness and people behaving according to the voices in their heads. It has its hell, ever burning or otherwise, to scare and motivate and stories of those in it begging for one drop of water only to be told, "sorry, too bad for you." Not exactly based on the Christian themes of forgiveness and grace.

Halloween is a harmless pursuit. Like religion, it can have its less savory moments acted out by delusional or psychotic individuals but so can religion. That's just people and the unstable make up parts of all cultures, societies, clubs, organisations and churches. They are the ones who get the attention.

Frankly, the most emotionally healthy children who grew up into adulthood are not the kids who were denied the "pagan holidays" or were forbidden to enjoy the harmless fun of Halloween or the quiet joy and memories of Christmas, kept either religiously (No matter the mistaken notions), or in a secular manner as the beginning of the Sun overcoming the darkness of winter, from which whole religions have sprung.

I don't agree with the compromise of making Halloween "nicey nice" as in a quick hat and shades either. Addressing and poking fun at the fears of ghosts and such is part of growing up. People also resent the quick costume as just a way to collect the goodies without going to any trouble. If not a wolf, how about dressing as a lamb? "Well yeah, that would be ok"

Maybe this year I'll dress up like HWA and shake my jowls at children passing the Hinson Baptist Church where he was baptized, three blocks away. The circle would be complete and "sometimes in life there is nothing left to do but have a good laugh," would be true.

Anonymous said...

bottom line....there is nothing Godly about it, and a number of things that are anti-God, so just don't do it.

Anonymous said...

On Christ return, it's going to a traumatic experience for millions to realize that their Islam, Buddhist, Hindu etc religions are wrong and need to be renounced.
I grant that Halloween and similar are harmless to most, but the example must now be set by the future bride of Christ. Personal example and prestige are powerful tools of percussion.
Not to mention the millions of angels who will need to feel that the former humans are worthy to be above them in the kingdom. As I understand it, angels are billions of years old. Their respect must be earned.

And not forgetting that former posters and readers of the 'Banned by Armstrong' blog, will in the near future look down on those who kept these pagan days. Today's posters like Dennis, sing one song, but on Christ's return, will sing another song. Dennis will say things like 'you were a fool to listen to me and longhair. You should not have kept those pagan days. Fool.'

Anonymous said...

The very idea of a Manichean struggle between 2-dimensional forces of pure "evil" and 2-dimensional forces of pure "goodness" is absurd to me now. So is the concept of either pure "evil" or pure "goodness" having either incarnate representations such as "god" and "satan," or else being disembodied and abstract, yet still literal forces that could come to possess a day or an event.

Actual "goodness" is nothing more than the concrete beneficient and generous intentions and actions of real human beings, and actual "evil" runs along similar lines. Despite its dark and superstitious theme, Halloween is just a harmless day of silly fun. I challenge anyone to point to anything specifically, actually, "evil" or concretely harmful about it. You can't. Bringing up irrational fears and old superstition doesn't cut it.

Anonymous said...

I personally am no fan of Halloween.I however notice that when teachings of HWA are challenged or mocked many jump to his defence instead of defending the bible or Christ, it's no different from Jehovah witnesses, Mormons or even Adventist jumping to the defence of watchtower, Joseph Smith or Ellen g white on websites that criticize their various religious doctrines or origins.Everything these groups teach are not necessarily bad or good.I am no fan of Halloween however I clearly understand that some people are trying to say is that they can see less visible harm done by Halloween than by Armstrongism's scattered churches,broken or separated families, deaths as a result of blindly following God's true Apostle (e.g no doctors equals more faith), nasty racism, unnecessary divorces, financial exploitation, shunning, brainwashing, cover-ups, cultic behavior, clever lies, narcissistic behavior by minister's, physiologically damaged members, egotistical personality group leaders that can't get along with each other while calling themselves the true Church. Halloween might be bad or maybe unchristian however the question is did armstrongism prove that it is less harmful by the results especially in leadership throughout the years that it is less or more damaging than someone ignorantly participating in Halloween? I am not saying You should celebrate Halloween one thing I always remember is whatever you are in life whatever you do remember you are a human first don't let your religion, Position or anything else get in the way of your Humanity.Unfortunately politics and religion or the two most powerful drivers of bias views. YOU don't have to agree with someone to understand where they are coming from or what they have been through. I don't know but maybe it's just the Gotham city in me (just kidding).

nck said...

"Not to mention the millions of angels who will need to feel that the former humans are worthy to be above them in the kingdom. As I understand it, angels are billions of years old. Their respect must be earned."

I was just thinking of "the big rotation", of civil servants and career civil servants, coming up in Washington with the coming president elect coming up.


Anonymous said...

To Anon 8:22AM:

On the Mahdi's return (with Christ at his side), it's going to be a traumatic experience for millions to realize that their Christian, Buddhist, Hindu etc religions are wrong and need to be renounced.

Byker Bob said...

8:22, isn't it more logical that Jesus would start the teaching process by lifting and pointing out the specific areas of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity which actually are true and correct? And then to build upon those with additional truths? That would play to the good intentions most humans hold, and facillitate the learning experience. I believe that most people, if ressurrected, will be looking for answers, looking to take things to the next level. They will want to acclimate themselves with the new reality. I know that additional knowledge and correction is certainly one of the big things I'll be looking for. You seem to believe that when Christ returns, Armstrongism is going to be shoved down everyone's throat without regard as to how people typically react to that type of dictatorial learning experiences. "Learn or burn" doesn't get people fully on board. Their minds must be engaged and receptive.

In the meantime all of us can attempt to impact the culture around us for good, diminishing the badness wherever possible.

You can reject a free gift outright because you don't like the strings that are attached, but you can never "qualify" for it by obeying your ACOG minister, or acting as if you actually believe that every word he speaks is truth. That's yet another manipulative false focus, implimented by Armstrongism. That line of thinking is what makes Armstrongism curiously similar to Islam.

I believe there are going to be many surprises in the Kingdom, regarding both beliefs and the people whom we see there. I


Byker Bob said...

On the topic of the open mind, if we wanted to follow one example, we could have gone along the route of creating a "Cheers, Parachute Guy" type character as incessant spokesperson for the open mind. But that would have ended up being as repugnant as the original after perhaps 1 or 2 postings.

I believe that when some of us entertain the idea of the open mind, what we're looking for is evidence of a processing method, or even that authentic (non-parrot) processing is taking place. It's not so much whether an individual changes his/her point of view that counts, but whether that individual has actually gone through an honest and careful consideration of what has been proposed without invoking "but, Mr. Armstrong taught", or without quoting a progression of scriptures which are immediately recognizable as being Armstrong eisegetics. Due to what has transpired, (or what has NOT transpired) over the past 41 years, those two factors no longer cut it as any sort of golden standard. If a person does introduce ideas which are not prefabricated Armstrongavellian shibboleths, these ideas are at least indicative of creative or independent thought, ie open mindedness.

In a sense, we've got a paradox. To get to the next level, we really must get past what have become cliches. The problem is, a new person just awakening, just beginning to read here may not realize that what he is being brave in posting has been asked and answered on the blogs perhaps several times over the past 15 years. We want to make sure that we accommodate those folks adequately, and don't just dismiss them, because all of us are in different stages of our learning experiences, and we wouldn't want to stymie anyone's progress.

We normally do discuss Halloween each year at this time, but because of the new people, especially from LCG, it's probably not a bad idea to spend a little time on it.


Anonymous said...

BB, the apostles never took the approach of building on other faiths. They always started from scratch, pointed to God, Gods laws as handed down by Moses, and built on that. The lording ministers are condemned by Christ with His condemnation of the 'deeds of the Nicolaitans' in Revelation 2:6,15. Personally, I do not believe Armstrong will be in the kingdom. Christ in the NT always used persuasion. He never shoved anything down peoples throat. He didn't even teach in the streets or street corners. He either taught in the synagogues, or people came to Him to be taught. Tyranny is the history of mankind, Armstongism is more of the same.

I believe the only surprise/s will be that today's church leaders either won't be in Gods kingdom, or will have low positions. Many 'nobodys' in Gods church will by contrast, have high positions in the kingdom.

nck said...

Makes excellent point on the "therefore CHOOSE life" axiom.

As an aside, one phrase caught my special attention. (since the rest is insightfull)

"That line of thinking is what makes Armstrongism curiously similar to Islam."

Armstrongism = Islam
It is both based on judaism.
Muhammed was raised among the, Ebionites christians that had fled the destroyed Jerusalem, other "people of the book" and reframed "lessons learned from the earlier prophets" around 700 ad and adding some spice with a mix it of Syriac Christianity.

Armstrongism also claims a heritage with Ebionites and the early church, framed through judaism, strung together with protestantism with the more human jesus.

The very meaning of "Islam" is "to submit." It NO accident that "to submit" is a catch phrase within Armstrongism.

(and then we have alan dexter wondering where paul went when he disappeared in the arabian desert)


RSK said...

Pity the fool who gets named Nicholas, apparently. I wonder if any COG leader has made hay out of that etymology?

Miguel de la Rodente said...

Nck, you may want to read up on the Ebionites, the Nestorians, the Gospel of Matthew to the Hebrews (which has never been found), the bar Kochba Rebellion, the opinions of the antenicene fathers regarding the Ebionites, the early history of the Eastern Church, and the the Peshitta, just for openers. Your oversimplification of the Ebionite history vis a vis Mohammed and Islam makes you sound like one of Wade Cox's followers.

12:34, the Apostles taught what Jesus had taught them. They were not educated scholars of the law with an independent reservoir of knowledge of the Law of Moses. What part of "It is written...... but I say unto you...." do you not understand? Jesus used these words on several noteworthy occasions. Also, the Pharisees who knew that it was wrong to bend down and pick up manna on the sabbath were technically right that it was wrong to bend down and pick corn. Finally, according to the law of Moses, the woman taken in adultery should have been stoned. Clearly, something very different was going on here!

During the transfiguration, Moses (symbolizing the law), and Elijah, (symbolizing the prophets) disappear, and God's voice tells Peter, James, and John to listen to Jesus, His Son! Jesus had priority over the law and the prophets.

Paul (apostle?), in a very real sense does build upon the beliefs of the gentiles as made very clear in Romans 2:14.


Anonymous said...

After a lifetime in the WCG, I let go of HWA's dictates 20 years ago. As my kids grew up, at Halloween time they drew jack-o-lanterns with smiling faces and hung them on the fridge, nibbled on candy corn, and went trick-or-treating on designated Sunday afternoons, accompanied by me, dressed as such horrible characters as Jasmine from Aladdin, football and baseball players, Superman and Batman, a princess, a pirate, Pebbles, Fred Flintstone, and so on. The last few times they went, in their older years, they wore street clothes, or maybe a football or basketball jersey just to join in the fun. They never once asked to dress up as devils or goblins or witches or ghosts; I guess it never occurred to them. Halloween was kinda cool, just a day, with a few cheery decorations at school and lots of candy on the weekend that they still had to ask permission to eat, even though we kept their collections separate.

As it turns out, the behavior of my children at Halloween and other seasonal times was totally innocent, especially compared to the abhorrent, filthy sexual indiscretions of HWA and GTA. Ultimately, those -- particularly HWA's -- are what woke me up to the fact that they were charlatans and frauds. The people that get on this and other threads and babble about "HWA this" and "HWA that" look foolish. Good grief, the public record of HWA's divorce trial states clearly that he reached an understanding with his ex-wife about his past incestuous relationship with his daughter. I wish I had known about it before I ever set foot on his campus in Pasadena; instead, I blithely went along, and even applauded the old lecher a few times. That said, I can't believe people still defend the man all these years later. I'm just glad my kids didn't grow up with their minds gripped by his confusing, cut-and-paste, self-serving approach to religion.

DennisCDiehl said...

anon said: "I believe the only surprise/s will be that today's church leaders either won't be in Gods kingdom, or will have low positions. Many 'nobodys' in Gods church will by contrast, have high positions in the kingdom."

Oh no, not more low positions/high positions. You mean in the Kingdom we have to put up with a pecking order of high, medium and low? Blech...count me out.

Anonymous said...

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. All human societies have are hierarchical with differing power, status levels. I recently watched a YouTube program on the worlds largest container vessel. The captain gets the highest level living courters, with the top engineer getting the lower level, and the third going to the vice captain or whatever the formal name. This is of Gods doing, and hence good. The 'pecking is condemned though, the chief seat going to the chief giver.
As a former minister, you were near the top of the heap, enjoying the power and status, so why the tut, tut.
Are you trying to change the rules since you are now a mere commoner?

Anonymous said...

Of all the "kingdoms" which may or may not be operated by various gods, I guarantee you, no COG people will ever be in any of them.

Martha said...

Anonymous at 12:34, that's not exactly true, that the apostles never starting from a foundation of other faiths. Paul's address at Mars Hill in Acts 17 did this, to some extent. He did not start off by calling his listeners a bunch of pagan polytheists. He commended them for their religious dedication and met them were they were. He connected their altar "to an unknown God" to the gospel message. He ended up correcting them for their idols, but this was not where he started.

Do I love the method? No. Does something stronger and more decisive make me feel better? Sure. But it's there as one example, perhaps for a reason.

Anonymous said...

I'm coming out of the closet. I'm outing myself. I confess. I want a high position in the kingdom. I want the power, status and recognition.
And I will not be intimidated.

Anonymous said...

Martha, yes Acts crossed my mind when I stated that the apostles didn't build on other faiths. In Acts, Paul used the UNKNOWN GOD to gain peoples attention. Nothing more. He then hit them with Christian basics. Read the account. Why should Paul give credibility to some counterfeit by building on it, or using it as some point of reference. God is a jealous God, and will not associate Himself with pagan frauds.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Anonymous said...

I'm with Dennis on this one. A eternal dirt nap seems more pleasant than The Grand Pecking Order for all eternity!

RSK said...

All this talk of positions in the kingdom is making me think of the disciples always quibbling over rank in the Gospels. Geez.

RSK said...

Or this, heh.

nck said...

"Good grief, the public record of HWA's divorce trial states clearly"

-I recognize your good reasons to not be part of the fold
-I am aware of ALL accusations and sources so there is no need to devote entire postings to convince me

However, for the record. UNLESS you have the "record of the divorce trial" in your posessions and post copies of said record, you are just quoting websites that are quoting newspaper clippings citing the other parties lawyer. This is not legally convincing.

For the rest. Happy Haloween!

And Miguel,
Indeed, extreme oversimplification as intended for the audience and for reasons of brevity.
Interesting, you quote all the relevant sources, except studies on early Islam and the conditions and circumstances of the prophets early years. Unless you are suggesting that their holy book is "divinely inspired" and not entirely manmade within a certain context.

The entire Jesus narrative in the arab book is a reflection of the earlier discussions in Christian context on the "humanity of Christ" and Maria's role in it all.
Quite akin to the "Robert Kuhn" inspired GTA book "The Real Jesus." Of course GTA portrays GTA as divine but you are aware that it is the most human (rugged, sweaty, frontier man) Jesus you will ever encounter in christian literature.

It is often cited that The real Jesus was taken out of print because of GTA's leaving the fold. But in reality even HWA could not swallow the almost complete humanity of Jesus portrayed. Of course in islam the nature of the prophet Jesus cannot be devine although he is attributed special treatment.


ps Because of the nature of google search. I have not named the arab holy book as it might attract an audience more interested in division of religion than building a shrine at mt sinai dedicated to the prophets shared by all three desert religions.

Sweetblood777 said...

It is obvious that many posters do not believe in God/Elohim anymore, for most of the comments reveal that they do not fear Him.

I on the other hand, believe in Him and fear Him. Most visiting this site, probably have the same belief. If the goal of this site is to show the wickedness of Armstrong and his cohorts, putting down the Most High is certainly not the way to gain their trust.

His word speaks of evil beings and if they exist in His mind, then I fully submit to His wisdom and revelation. When I see/read that people think that wicked spirits are something to make fun of, I think of the fifth trumpet, where, to me, is speaking of these spirits tormenting mankind, I certainly wouldn't want to come under their torment.

Martha said...

Yes but...

Paul did slightly more than use the altar just to get attention.

He claimed that the God he proclaimed was the one they worshipped at the altar to the unknown.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areoapagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with the inscription: To the Unknown God. Therefore, THE ONE WHOM YOU WORSHIP WITHOUT KNOWING, HIM I PROCLAIM TO YOU.

He didn't give credibility; rather the claimed this was a God they already worshiped. It is believed that, in that time, there may have been a law in Athens that made preaching foreign gods illegal. Was Paul skirting the law or just creating rapport with the men of Athens? Maybe both. Either way, the Greek seems to indicate the word some versions translate "ignorantly" as "without knowing," or lacking the negative connotations of ignorance. I believe this is true, given Paul's style and the approach he would have taken knowing the mindset of Athenian listeners.

At any rate, he did get into Christian basics quickly, but he also strongly insinuated that the God he preached was the one they honored at the altar to the unknown.

Anonymous said...


The popular Christian 'Answers in Genesis' ministry would like you to hand out these 1-million dollar bills to children who come trick-or-treating tonight.

FYI, the popular Christian 'Answers in Genesis' ministry opened the Creation Museum, a facility that promotes young Earth creationism, and in 2016 AiG opened the Ark Encounter, a Noah's Ark themed amusement park.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the "open apostasy by the Tkaches", anon wrote, "Those who hate what HWA taught might be a little bit more convincing if they had something better to offer in place of his teachings, rather than things like Halloween, witchcraft and sorcery, astrology and horoscopes, magic, seances, Ouija boards, and the occult. Pretending that these things are innocent and harmless pastimes is not totally convincing."

What? To my knowledge, neither of the Tkaches advocated things like, "witchcraft and sorcery, astrology and horoscopes, magic, seances, Ouija boards, and the occult"

In spite of all that the Tkaches embraced- being lying con-artists trying to maintain their undeserved lifestyle- there was nothing along those lines, anon.

Besides, what HWA taught was pile of crap, too. It was only for the purpose of self-aggrandizement with the delusional sense of cosmically derived royalty, and it's attendant lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

I cant help but notice that in the religious world, clamoring for people to have "an open mind" often results in the shibboleth of many people becoming 'closed minded religious assholes'.

Anonymous said...

Nck, the written record of Herbies divorce trial (photocopies of the transcripts) has often being reproduced on dissident sites. Herbie did confess to his affair with his daughter.

RSK. A major reason of ministers abusing members is to beat them down, tear them down, in order to gain power and superiority over them. Yet you trivialise this by your 'quibbling over rank' remark. Many histories believe Germany started WW1 (millions dead and maimed) for the sake of 'rank.' in fact, many wars have been fought over rank. Christ did not criticise His disciples for desiring rank, but just pointed out the price that needed to be paid to acquire the desired rank.
My observation is that those who rubbish rank or similar, desire it the most.

Anonymous said...

BB '1 or 2 postings?' you have criticised BI dozens of times. You are BI-Guy.

Anonymous said...

Dressing up as HWA? Man,Freddie Krueger,Jason,or Michael Myers would have nothing on that!

nck said...

"Nck, the written record of Herbies divorce trial (photocopies of the transcripts) has often being reproduced on dissident sites. Herbie did confess to his affair with his daughter."


This is the first time in over 30 years that I hear something new.
To me this is breaking news.

If you could point me to that material I would be much obliged.


nck said...


BTW, I will for now call you a pathetic liar.

Because this will be my last opportunity to call one so since I will have to make lengthy statements and apologies on many blogs from now on since you will enlighten me with the legal truth.

Prophecy about sequence of events:
a) Nck is calling the anonymous poster 10:09 a terrible liar and a fraud. You are a liar!
b) Then you will post a link to those transcripts
c) nck will fall silent and will the rest of his life send only continuous and incessant apologies because of statements he/I made because of my lack of posession of those transcripts.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous on October 31, 2016 at 7:14 AM said...

“What? To my knowledge, neither of the Tkaches advocated things like, 'witchcraft and sorcery, astrology and horoscopes, magic, seances, Ouija boards, and the occult'”

“In spite of all that the Tkaches embraced- being lying con-artists trying to maintain their undeserved lifestyle- there was nothing along those lines, anon.”

Notice that Keith Stump is still stumping for Halloween.

Your comment reminded me of a blast from the past called Worldwide Church of God women bewitched by Harry Potter. I'll try to find the blurb and post it below if I can.

Anonymous said...

Worldwide Church of God women bewitched by Harry Potter

Whereas the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) under Herbert W. Armstrong had opposed customs like Halloween, the WCG under Joseph Tkach, Jr. just can't seem to get enough sorcery and nonsense. This complete change in the nature of the WCG is illustrated by an article in the April 2002 edition of the WCG's Canadian Northern Light magazine. The article, called Harry Potter: What's All The Fuss About?, was written by a woman whose daughter had become obsessed with the overly lengthy books written by a divorced English woman named Joanne K. Rowling. The daughter read them everywhere she went. In no time at all, the mother too "was enchanted." Reading the Bible did not seem to be of any interest to either of them. The article first appeared in the February/March 2002 edition of the WCG's British Plain Truth magazine.

In the Old Testament of the Bible, God told the Israelites, "When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 18:9-13, NIV).

The New Testament of the Bible says that, "Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas" (Acts 19:18-19, NIV). Whereas converted people in the first century rejected sorcery and nonsense for the truth of God, people in the Worldwide Church of God in the twenty-first century are rejecting the truth of God for sorcery and nonsense.

The Bible does say that a time will come when people will "not put up with sound doctrine" (II Timothy 4:3, NIV). "They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths" (II Timothy 4:4, NIV).

While the Old Testament of the Bible mentions some pretty dire consequences of wrong behavior, the New Testament of the Bible warns about even worse consequences: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" (Revelation 21:8, NIV).

Continued below...

Anonymous said...

...continued from above.

Having been "brought up with weird witchy tales," the author of the Harry Potter article can't see what all the fuss is about. She can't differentiate between right and wrong. She doesn't care that her daughter's head is full of things that God says are detestable. Her great concern is that her daughter's "vocabulary would be full of Americanisms, her written work full of US-style spellings," if it weren't for English authors like J. K. Rowling. She tries to give the impression that Harry Potter is the only book available in the English language for her kid to read. From time to time, some woman will want to teach in the church. When one sees how unbalanced they can be, it is no wonder that the apostle Paul said, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (I Timothy 2:12, NIV).

How could any women in the WCG ever be so stupid, and so wicked, and so blatant about it all? How could any men in the WCG ever publish such a bad article? Well, the Bible explains that, "The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men" (Psalm 12:8, NIV).

From a practical point of view, people who don't really believe in God, and who like things that the Bible says are evil, could save a lot of money by just purchasing Harry Potter books for their retail price, without the additional cost of tithing added on. Unless one wants to help corrupt the world, why financially support a so-called church so it can praise and promote Harry Potter books rather than the Bible?

Anonymous said...

"a woman whose daughter had become obsessed with the overly lengthy books written by a divorced English woman named Joanne K. Rowling..."

As opposed to becoming obsessed with the overly lengthy books written by a divorced American man named Herbert W. Armstrong?

Anonymous said...'s not just 'Armstrongism' that doesn't celebrate Halloween.

Anonymous said...

The Dr Who universe (or is it multiverse) is more surreal than Harry Potter.
And not forgetting this new Dr Strange movie with all it's parallel universes and domains.