...and they think they are God's chosen ministers!
A reader here wrote:
Dave, and people like him, are fuel for websites such as this....he in no way represents The Church.I believe that Dave Pack most certainly DOES represent everything the Church of God has come to be in the last 80 years. This is the culmination of the legacy of Herbert Armstrong. Pack has taken all of Herbert Armstrong's teachings, embraced them and they enlarged them into the abomination we see today.
With Pack is still delivering a sermons series that is in the 250+ range now where he talks about "all things common" and his creature called "jesus" returning 3 times and will also be showing up on the Wadsworth campus just before the shit hits the fan. This is what the COG has come to be.
Pack is not alone in doing this though. We have Gerald Flurry rewriting HWA's books to make them fit his delusions. From being King of the church to embracing Irish Dance as the divine dance of God and first-century Christianity. Then there is Ron Weinland, one of the most pathetic prophets the church has ever seen, claiming he and his dingy wife are the two witless witnesses and his creature "jesus" is ready to return in the next few days. We also have Bob Thiel who created a church because his spiritual daddy turned his back on him and ignored Bob's demands that LCG change their teachings to fit his erroneous interpretations. On top of that, he also expects us to believe that he was doubly blessed to start a church and that his frequent nightmares are validation he is the final end-time church.
This is the legacy of the Church of God. A church now overrun with buffoons and charlatans that are leading people astray. So yes, Dave Pack does represent the entire church, as do these other peddlers of heresy.
31 comments:
You underestimate Dave! The Great Packster doesn’t thing he represents the true church, he thinks he is Christ or even a God. Different ballgame..
And that makes Dave way more dangerous than Flurry or Thiel. Dave thinks of himself as God. No more, no less. And he demands to be treated like Christ/God. Anyone that disagrees with that deserves to die according to Dave. I have heard him say that a number of times.
Never in the history of the churches of god was there a more delusional and dangerous man. The RCG has everything to become a next Jonestown or Waco: a malignant narcissist as their cult leader, demanding absolute obedience, worshipped by followers that have lost every ability to think for themselves, willingly doing their ‘lord’s’ every command to the very end, whatever that end might be..
THE FALSE PROPHETS
Satan's Worst:
Gerald R. Flurry and David C. Pack are Satan's FALSE PROPHETS that Satan sent to edit, change, warp, mangle, and completely, totally, utterly pervert everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught.
Gerald Flurry and David Pack both used Herbert W. Armstrong's name to attract HWA's followers, but then massively changed what HWA had taught and tried to destroy HWA's former followers in the name of HWA. Their PCG and RCG groups are both satanic imposter cults and are NOT part of the true church.
That is why Gerald Flurry immediately did away with what HWA had called the true purpose of the church, the gospel commission, and replaced it with a new commission to cause division in the church, claimed that he, Gerald Furry, (rather than Jesus) was That Prophet, enforced “no contact policy” family wrecking, found a new pet rock, and has simply been nothing but evil continually from the very beginning.
That is why David Pack promoted himself from mere minister to apostle to Joshua to Elijah (and soon messiah), came up with his “common” theft scam, and is still working on his 250+ sermon load of “The Greatest Bullshit Ever Sold.”
Nobody else can pretend to be faithfully following HWA and yet utterly pervert everything that HWA had taught and make HWA look bad like Gerald Flurry and David Pack can.
The followers of Gerald Flurry and David Pack close their eyes, cover their ears, and rage away like the demoniacs that they really are about all the “evil Laodiceans” who did not fall for Satan's false prophets like they themselves did.
On the Origin of Splinter Groups
In the past, people saw Herbert W. Armstrong growing the Worldwide Church of God to be relatively large and well-known and wealthy.
After HWA died in January 1986, and the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. took over and then openly destroyed the WCG in January 1995, many people in the WCG saw and seized their opportunity to rise up, speak perverse things, and draw away followers after themselves. That is where all the WCG splinter groups came from.
There are so many different splinter groups because different people had different ideas about what sort of perverse things to speak. The splinter groups continue to teach more and more perverse things and to split and splinter because the people who arose to speak perverse things cannot get along with each other. Each one wants to be in charge and have his own money stream to finance his own favorite perverse speakings.
It is kind of broad brushing to make a statement like "Pack and his ilk represent the Churches of God as a whole".
Statements like that, trying to put everyone into a box, in a simplistic "25 word or less" diatribe, is too dogmatic and predisposed.
I have known total idiots, sociopaths, and horrific people in the COGs. I have also known wonderful delightful people, who really were Spirit led saints, who I cant say enough good things about.
Im sure that is true within the Pack, Flurry and Weinalnd groups as well. Now dont take this the wrong way! Those groups are led by despicable men, and can be classified as cults. However, I think that mercy needs to be extended to the good and decent people that may be attending at those places.
After all, weren't most of the people reading this blog , attending a WCG service at one time or another?? Weren't we "fans" at one point or another ? Even scripture says that God blinks at the time of ignorance. I confess to being ignorant of the behind closed doors adventures of , HWA/GTA Pasadena, and AC, and most of the shenanigans going on.
I was young and gullible, and had a desire to make the world a better place. It is a good dream that I still have, although I have discarded the need for interopers , shamans and go between, in that process.
Amen brother Tonto! :-)
My strategy has been to show that they are complete and utter abberations.
Too many really nice and sincere people over in cog land. I know part of my family is there.
Which is the trooooo church however, who knows, the Catholics have some amazing art, I heard a man in a far far away land knows the answers to everything, he goes by the name of bobus.
Nck
Sister Tonto
I’m not saying that there aren’t any good people in the RCG Tonto, but there are less and less. And that makes sense: the good ones see what Dave Pack is really like and what his ‘true church’ teachings are really about. And so they leave. The good ones don’t want to be a part of Pack’s looney narcissism ‘church’ anymore.
So Pack is left now with a group of devotees that worship him like a god. That group doesn’t understand the meaning of the word ‘Christianity’ anymore. They let him do whatever he wants and say ‘yes’ and ‘amen’ to every weird thing Pack comes up with.
There will always be people trapped in every splinter, typically by family considerations. So every major group will have it's faithful Christians. But since there's freedom of movement between the splinters, there must also be a natural sorting out based on maturity levels. Not all ACOGs are created equal.
I have family in the RCG and they admit that Pack ‘can say things that don’t make much sense to us’ (mortals that is). They talk about him as if he is Christ himself.
Last year my brother told me that he had considered leaving, but in the end decided to stay. His reason for staying: ‘I’m not going to give up my place in the Kingdom because Mr. Pack makes a few mistakes.’
I think that is the #1 reason people in the RCG stay. They stay out of fear. Even if their entire church burns down around them, even if that maniac Pack would tell them to drink the kool aid. They have invested too much time, all their money and way too much energy in the RCG to leave.
Pack will take them down with him.
Are you being true to yourself though Tonto ? Or living a double life.
Which is the true church? The question suggests that there is one organization that is the True church rather than the church being the people themselves who are scattered in and out of organizations. The church, as I understand it, is not like a political party or a civic group with identifiable members. It consists of individual people who have a relationship with God.
Rather than looking for the right organization to become a part of, maybe we should be looking for like minded people to work with. Once your focus is on to an organization with its hierarchy, power structure, money, etc. the worst comes out in many people. HWA took the list of offices in the church in Ephesians, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastor/teachers and looked at them as a hierarchy of power which carries with it money, status, office location (4th floor of Hall of Admin), etc. I think of these "positions" not as rankings that people should strive for, as in the military, but different duties. The arrangement should not be vertical, but circular, like a wheel, with Jesus, the head of the Church at the hub. No one "servant" or "Minister" is above or below anyone else. It this model was used in church organizations, HWA's, GTA's RCM's and SR's offices wouldn't be on the top floor of the Hall of Admin, nor would HWA be taking a salary of $421,052 in 1981 (equiv. to $2.4 million today: I have a copy of his income tax form.). All the symbols of status and power (homes on Waverly Drive) would be gone and much of the lying and corruption that goes with the seeking of power would be gone, also. Power hungry people would be more focused on serving the members than seeking higher positions (I think RCM was one the worse offender). GTA wasn't so much the power hungry guy as the celebrity front man for the church. Let him have his toys (Falcon jet) do his radio and tv programs and overlook his "weaknesses" and he would probably be happy with that. I'm rambling again. Sorry.
nah...people like Pack have taken a grain of truth, embellished it, twisted and perverted it, and created their own earthly empires....
they are no different than those you see on TBN....but since they preach the Sabbath and Holy Days they could be a bit more dangerous....Satan can use them to cause some that God has called to stumble.
I would hope those with God's Spirit would see through them rather quickly...
Anonymous at 5:35 AM said...“they are no different than those you see on TBN....but since they preach the Sabbath and Holy Days they could be a bit more dangerous....Satan can use them to cause some that God has called to stumble.”
The only reason that guys like Gerald Flurry and David Pack know about things like the Sabbath is because Herbert W. Armstrong taught them about it. People then mistakenly think that guys like Gerald Flurry and David Pack have the truth of God because they have heard about the Sabbath. But Gerald Flurry and David Pack both turn the Sabbath into a heavy burden by making it a time of mandatory attendance at their satanic imposter cults to be lied to by Satan's false prophets.
Nicely said Anon 5:19!
Anonymous at 11:58 PM said...“I’m not saying that there aren’t any good people in the RCG Tonto, but there are less and less. And that makes sense: the good ones see what Dave Pack is really like and what his ‘true church’ teachings are really about. And so they leave. The good ones don’t want to be a part of Pack’s looney narcissism ‘church’ anymore.”
David C. Pack originally claimed that his RCG cult was going to restore everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught at the time of HWA's death in 1986. This attracted hundreds of sincere believers. Later, Dave Pack decided to make up all sorts of other nonsense instead. The RCG cult turned out to have been a BAIT & SWITCH scam. The better people eventually wizened up, accepted their losses, and left the RCG cult.
Dave Pack is now left with the nuttier people who have no common sense and who do not remember, or who never knew, what HWA had taught. Dave Pack had in the past given three sermons with 30 + 30 + 30 = 90 reasons to follow the truth. But the people who are still in the RCG cult mistakenly think that they have invested too much time, energy, and money to follow the truth and leave the RCG cult. Apparently, having given everything to the RCG cult and having gone “all in” on that risky gamble is the one big reason to stay with the RCG cult and hope that it somehow works out yet, rather than follow the truth and leave the RCG cult.
Pack is crazy. And he destroys people’s lives with his craziness. I left the RCG two years ago and my heart bleeds when I see what is happening to the members that are still there. They have no money left. They are not allowed to decide anything for themselves. They are scared and helpless. Sucked dry by a satanic vampire like Pack, unable to escape the inevitable.
I don't think PAck represents the COGs, but he is representative of them in that he is a natural outgrowth of groups that are tied so closely to a man (hwa). How is his church different? Mainly just by degree. He is crazier than HWA and gets away with more false prophesy, but he and HWA ruled with a fear of losing your spot in the kingdom if you left their group, so the importance of being in the organization is the same. Is it surprising that some crazy guy (Pack) that speaks well would come out of a church(WCG) founded by a good speaker who also had crazy beliefs about himself?
Pack is representative of the extremes, and not as extreme as it could be.
Flurry is very similar to Armstrong. Some trifling differences there...a little more shunning/disfellowship than WCG, but I really do not see a lot of difference there. Hyper-organization and both claim to be spoken of in the Bible. Weird. Same performing arts focus.
LCG worse than COGWA worse than UCG. Still government from top down, less shunning for sure in COGWA/UCG, but they all believe that they are in the KNOW and others that claim Christianity are deluding themselves (so they are mild cults). All ignore many scriptures and learned scholars while talking about the TRUTH without having the guts to go back and explain what all of that truth they claim to adhere to is. They know their arguments are weak without leaning on the belief HWA received special revelation so they just talk about the TRUTH. This is mainly sabbaths, pork, trinity (though they acknowledge all three, and I daresay few will see the Lord they imagined when they see Him face to face), Christmas (what if it was not on the 25th would it be okay then?). The thin slicing is getting sillier to me all the time and makes me sad as there are solid people that could be better functioning Christians outside the COGs.
All these COG groups are representative of the COGs; it's natural to have a variety where some are more toxic than others. It would show some progress (probably), if we could say that UCG represents the COGs as it is not as toxic as worlwide COG was, but instead it is just a more mild variety on the representative spectrum.
The RCG members are like sitting ducks. That’s the way Dave and his ministers see them.
For Pack and his wolves the members are there to devour!
Growing up with Mr. Peanut, the grade A brand of life saving energy, it was easy to slide on in with Mr. Pack, the clean cut and spiffy better than all the other splintered peanuts.
Unfortunately I learned that Mr Pack is a Fruit of the Loom guy and pulling on those briefs every morning and looking at that iconic label he ..... ah well, kinda became enamored with his fruit and decided to ditch the monocal and cane and started carrying a big bag.
I paused and thought to myself, I have seen this man before quite often growing up. Yes, it is Rich Uncle Dollar(Penny)bags.
When Rich Uncle Davy Dollarbags declared I and we had to pay to play, I thought no problem, the game is somewhat fun. When Rich Uncle Davy Dollarbags declared I had to pay (every thing I had) to STAY, I paused and looked at Uncle Davy holding his large filled money bag and sprawling real estate empire and asked him where are you running to so fast?
He mumbled something about the kingdom on earth, but from where I was standing it was Tataouine.
"Last year my brother told me that he had considered leaving, but in the end decided to stay. His reason for staying: ‘I’m not going to give up my place in the Kingdom because Mr. Pack makes a few mistakes.’"
If God is really going to make us kings and priests, he would want smart ones who can see a false prophet. Your god is pretty weak if he cannot give you your "place in the Kingdom" because you left a false prophet and church. Pack is making more than just a "few mistakes". Like about every prediction he has made so far...
If these churches are not growing in the number of members, if the membership is aging and dying off, if estates are not given to the church, you can see the income stream drying up. The building programs will cease, if they haven't already done so. Then the cost cutting has to begin with layoffs, less maintenance of facilities, and other cost cutting measures (except the salaries for those at the top). Many splinters claim to be following WCG, and they too will shrivel up and die like the WCG did. Gerald Flurry won't be around to see it happen, again, following HWA example. Stephen Flurry is one who should be worried. What will he "inherit" if he takes over? The "campus" in England will probably be the first thing to go, along with the plane. Then he will have to hunker down on the campus. It will be interesting to see, but I won't be around to see it. I saw the start of the construction of the auditorium in Pasadena but won't see the destruction and sale of the Edmond, OK campus.
This is absolutely spot on. Dave is crazy, but a good example of when you take ism to is extreme. He is following in HWAs steps with all the personal revelations. All of the groups are from the same broken system and suffer (to varying degrees) the same bad fruit. HWA was the root of the problem, not the cure.
Anonymous at 12:10 AM said...“Last year my brother told me that he had considered leaving, but in the end decided to stay. His reason for staying: ‘I’m not going to give up my place in the Kingdom because Mr. Pack makes a few mistakes.’”
The problem with your brother's reasoning is that in recent years Dave Pack has been making nothing but mistakes. Major mistakes.
Following and supporting Satan's false prophets that Jesus warned about is NOT the way into the kingdom of God.
Dave is not crazy
He is cunning, clever and Demon Influenced...! Eyewitness accounts attest to that.
One past comment said Dave made "few mistakes"...
since when does God expect us to follow Evil to be in His Kingdom?
Stay home with your Bible and Prayers is a far better course of action!!
2.10 PM
I question your claim that Joseph W Tkach 'destroyed' the WCG. It's a common accusation, but it ignores that Herb deliberately built his church on sand rather than rock. HWA claimed that his was the one true religion because he had the right holy days, understanding of prophesy etc, but rejected the fundamentals of Christianity. Members were only permitted to grow in limited areas, were treated as children, and dumbed down, all for the purpose of making them dependent on the church. It's text book cult behavior. Joe Tkach was the wind and rain that collapsed the house, but not the builder of the crappy house.
Rather than repudiating HWAs toxic church culture, and splinters have increased the toxicity, while simultaneously blaming their members and Satan for the resulting shrivelling of their churches.
6:35 AM
So true! I always have in mind the saying, “It is better to be serving God in solitude than serving sin with a multitude!”
So what are the fundamentals in Christianity in your opinion ?
Micah 6:8- Deut 10:12-13
If anyone has doubts about HWA being a plagiarist then I think you need to read the works of Charles A. Lewis Totten. No doubt he stole from his books. The Secret of History, Tea Tephi, Our Race, ect. Totten was a great man and West Point graduate and a top ten cadet. He was also a Professor of Military Science and Tactics from Yale. He had devoted his life to his writing on British Israelism. HWA took his works and made them his own. Even right down to the pamphlets that HWA started his ministry with. Totten passed away in 1908.
“Does Dave Pack and his ilk represent the Churches of God as a whole?”
Dave Pack and his ilk represent Satan and what Satan is trying to do to former WCG members.
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