Sunday, June 16, 2013

Dennis On "How Long Will Ye Halt Between 2000 Opinions?

If Dave be Joshua the High Priest coming to his Temple, serve him

If Jesus be the High Priest coming to his Temple, serve him

If Gerald be That Prophet, Serve him

If That Prophet be batshit crazy, don't.

If Culpepper is against adoption, sell the kids

If Culpepper is batshit crazy, tell him to mind his own business or else

If you have only 3-5 Years left, sell everything and be a witness

If you think ten rounds of 3-5 is too much, go see a movie

The Lion King (1994) - IMDb

If it is the real gun lap, run like hell

If you are tired of false starts and finishes, ask why?

If you believe Dave Pack is the source of all things God and True, follow him

If you think Dave is batshit crazy, ask for a refund

If you believe you can both build a brand spanking new college of the best quality and believe "my lord doesn't delay his coming,"  go for it.

If building a brand spanking new college of the best quality, with your money, doesn't seem to fit with "the work will be over in 2016," guard your purse.

If, as a minister, elder or deacon in another COG and wanting to join RCG, go for it man.

If, as a minister, elder or deacon you have any self respect, can think for yourself and value your own views, run.

If you really, really, really believe that the BIBLE speaks specifically of David C Pack in the Book of Haggai, sign up 

If you think that's the most ridiculous , self centered, self absorbed and stupid form of "theology" you have ever heard,  stay put

If you think Church leadership should pass to the leader's children, serve PCG or RCG

If you think that lesson has been learned, appoint an empowered board of directors

If you want to go to a genuine Old Testament Feast of Tabernacles, follow James Malm

If you have ever heard of Jesus, probably not.

jesus lamb of god photo: Lamb of God Lamb_God.jpg

If you can't say the word "Jesus" without visions of fluffy swoozy and nicey, follow Living Church of God

If permitting little children to come unto your Jesus sounds kind, try UCG

If study papers and rational inquiry into the beliefs and teachings of one human being are not necessary to you, follow Dave Pack

If you think in the multitude of counsel there might be safety, go to another movie.

If you think Jesus had a $25,000 (rumored to be)  dollar nick nack of Elijah the Prophet on his desk because he just wanted it, follow Dave Pack

This one sold for $3600--Shop at Walmart man!

If you think that Dave can say, "Well Mary anointed Jesus feet with very expensive oil and only Judas got ouchy about it,"  follow Dave

If you think building homes for faculty and ministers, with or without paneling as we read in Haggai is ok for the Goose but not the Gander,  follow Dave

If you think never actually revealing where the money goes and how much there has been donated, follow Dave

If you think you'd enjoy being under Dave's total control knowing he won't live any longer than any other human being and you will get stuck with the bills and no Christ, knock yourself out, follow Dave Pack.

If following HWA's 75 minute truth of sermon length but of course, not for Dave Pack, is the gold standard, well follow Dave.

If you believe Victor Kubik of UCG has set about the best and only example of actually feeding, clothing  and making life better for actual human beings in the present time and not wishing them well and to be warmed and filled, go to UCG

If you think shunning contributions to the American Red Cross or any kind of actual help to real human beings in need in the now is bullshit and the money can be better spent on expensive trinkets in Dave Pack's office,  follow Dave. 

Now, if you want to see the Wrath of Khan in every storm, follow Bob Thiel

If you don't mind a not so earth shattering work in this end time, ditto

If you are ok with , "I am that prophet,"  "And yes brethren, I am an Apostle," or "I got an accidental double portion and turned it into my being a genuine Prophet," you ain't right but that which you do, do quickly.

If you don't mind saying, "Yikes, I gave 4,000, 6,000, 10,000 , 25,000 (for a trinket) to my church when tax time comes around, keep up the good work.

If you find yourself a little short and in need of some help but want to find out monies set aside for one purpose are often spent on other purposes and you are not worthy,  follow....probably anyone who collects 3-T

If you feel in your heart, you are an "appropriate male," and can lead church services, contact Bob Thiel

If you believe you are a worthy young man and want to go to summer camp, contact Dave Pack.

If you want a sane, balanced and actually fun camp experience without indoctrination, propaganda and narrow thinking, go to Camp Grenada.

If you want more discipline and stories of torture, mayhem and what worthy youth do behind the scenes at camp,  Go to Gitmo-Ohio-on-76

If 15 years from now you want your worthy children to tell you what they really heard and saw and went through, see above. 

Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorWell, point made I suppose.  Life is decisions but in the COGs there are way too many others making your  common life decisions.  You really have to recapture your common sense and learn to tell your just a bit too intrusive and opinionated pastor and church where your boundaries are and mean it.    Not that men like Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack and far too many others understand anything about boundaries but you simply have to set them.  You will notice these types of men have very strict boundaries when it comes to  your ideas affecting them.  But they have little or no boundaries when it comes to their ideas affecting you.  They expect their ideas and awesomeness to affect you to their advantage.  

Do they see it?  Are they sincere?  Sometimes I think no and yes and sometimes it just looks like mental illness to me hidden well in a church setting which would not survive two minutes at any real business.  What we have seen and continue to see is men who really do have personal, un addressed issues in their own lives running the religion show.  Be they merely ego centric or totally narcissistic, a bit odd and weird or totally pathological,  in fact,  has to be left up to others who study such things.  But you don't have to be the victim of it.  That story has already been told over the past 70 years of Church of God antics and intentions and many are only reinventing the wheel of religion gone nuts in yet another generation if we don't learn from it. 

I can't un ring my own bell, but I did not and will not keep ringing it and I hope you can dig down inside and find the courage to say the same. 

It's ok to put yourself, your family and your perspectives first in your life.  You can't help but be anything else but yourself,  well...unless you are in most of the COG splinters and slivers.  Then it is a sin to be repented of.

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Douglas Becker said...

Maybe you should publish an illustrated DSM-5 -- it certainly would be entertaining.

Maybe we should have a contest to see which cult of Herbert Armstrong leader's picture should by which mental disorder.

Assistant Deacon said...

I sat and laughed out loud, reading this. The theater of the absurd, nothing less.

Priceless stuff, Dennis. "Batshit crazy." Hahahahaha.

Anonymous said...

I spit some of my breakfast out on the 'appropiate male' part! Too funny!

DennisCDiehl said...

"Mr. Diehl...your humor appears to be somewhat passive/aggressive."

"Wellllllll exxxxcuuuuuuuse meee!"


It is a problem. I tend towards taking up for the under dog because they usually are more correct in any given situation.

Byker Bob said...

I always said that the only factor which kept HWA in check was the fact that he was operating his church in a geographic area regulated by the US Constitution. It is debateable, but many Christians outside of the ACOGs believe that the constitution finds all or many of its roots in the Bible. For me, this is why I would never have wanted to be in an Armstrongite place do "safety". They place their cultic governance outside of or above general principles of civilization while denying the basic God-given freedoms acknowledged by the Constitution.

Anyone who has watched the various exposes of other cults in the mainstream media has encountered these same types of cultic abuse patterns. The most recent which comes to mind is Warren Jeff's FLDS church, which it took years for the federal governments to finally intervene with, and which Jeff's impudently continues to
rule with an iron fist from his cell in the penitentiary. I know just as surely as I am writing this that some ACOG members who read it will say to themselves, "But that's different! We are actually God's True Church, and Mr. So and So is God's apostle!" Are you really??? Are you certain beyond any doubt? Or are certain things troubling you that you are constantly needing to repress, or to give them a pass on?

Throughout the Bible, the people who spoke for God had the witness of God behind them, effortlessly and independent of what they could do on their own parts. This witness had nothing to do with building a huge complex, amassing financial resources, or collecting and teaching a unique amalgam of extrabiblical theories. What they said actually came to pass in the timeframe which they gave, without excuses. There was also the element of God's love, compassion and mercy in the ways in which they exercised authority. Do you honestly feel that these elements are present in your splinter group, and in the character of your chief pastor? Does this radiate throughout the entire organization, making it a reliable source of spiritual guidance?

These are tough times in the ACOGs because so many ridiculous events and activities are transpiring. Lay members are being bullied and hurt by people who claim that they have a double portion of the Holy Spirit. My hopes and prayers would be that members begin to ask themselves some serious questions. You may not even get that choice, but while you have it, ask God's guidance, and take time to reevaluate, to reconsider.


Head Usher said...

This just reminded me of the old Cal Worthington TV ads. That's when I realized that sometimes the most basic things in life can be the hardest to remember, such as not devoting your life to a freakshow. That's when you need a catchy little jingle to stick in your memory...


Second Coming's on the brink, don't see Dave!
Church is driving you to drink, don't see Dave!
Herbert's spinning in his grave
Till everybody worships Dave!"
Don't see Dave, don't see Dave, don't see Dave.

If your church is a mistake, don't see Dave!
Give your pocketbook a break, don't see Dave!
You've been giving too much dough,
Now it's time to just say NO!
Don't see Dave, don't see Dave, don't see Dave.

Assistant Deacon said...

Usher, in that version Davey boy would need to feature a dressed up pig, just for the irony.

Joe Moeller said...


The bar has been set too low. Unless your guru is :

* Raising people from the dead
* Healing known blind people that were blind from birth.
* Restoring missing limbs.
* Actually predicting non random events to the second, and in great specificity.
* Calling fire from heaven
* Walking on water

THEN HE IS A MAN JUST LIKE YOU! Stop having an inferiority complex about yourself! You do not "need" this man for any purpose, and his insight is just as good of a guess as yours.

Im not against good examples, cooperation, good leadership, mentoring , mutual enlightened self interest, and the like, but realize that you are not dealing with miracle workers, just dudes that are like you that may have a bit more experience in some areas than you do. Nothing that you too can learn with a little time and patience as well.

Hierarchy is how SATAN rules the world! Run from hierarchy and one man rule! It is an evil system, and has NEVER produced good fruit at any time or anywhere!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Steve Kisack said...

Joe Moeller said...
Hierarchy is how SATAN rules the world! Run from hierarchy and one man rule! It is an evil system, and has NEVER produced good fruit at any time or anywhere!

MY COMMENT: Then, why are you a part of one?

Anonymous said...

Hi Dennis,

When I read, "batshit crazy" I couldn't help but think of the strong resemblance between Bat Boy and Michele Bachmann!

Anonymous said...

You've set the bar WAY too low if you find yourself in the UCG, PCG, LCG, or any of the other churches that want to suck the dollars out of you so their Ministurds can keep on with their "having more than you" lifestyles.

Joe Moeller said...

In response to Steve's question above about why I am in the UCG...

My comment referred to one man, unaccountable, no recourse hierarchal rule, for life, and with the ability to practice nepotism in choosing the "next" dictator.

UCG has an elected council. The Chairman is elected. The President is elected. Neither the Chairman, nor the President have dictatorial powers, but rather act as facilitators and directors.

Terms have durations. There has been a turnover of leadership in an orderly manner.

Doctrinal changes must be approved by the entire body of elders and must have 75% super majority approval. All business matters of the council must be voted on and approved by majority vote. The meetings are transparent, video taped and well documented for the entire membership.

Input is welcomed at all levels, including comment sections throughout the UCG website.

Local churches can establish their own local councils, can collect their money locally at their choosing, creating their own local budgets, have local boards, that include women on them as well, who possess the right to vote, and having unordained lay member council members, and in many cases even unordained local chairmen.

There are processes in place for member redress and grievance, going right up to National level. Since the departure of the COGWA bunch, UCG has been a very enlightened structure , and progressive in its governance.

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Head Usher said...

I mostly don't say anything anymore, but in this case you have got to admit that regardless of whether it's a patri-archy or an olig-archy, it's still a hier-archy.

You've got to concede that point at least. It's just dictionary definitions.

I know UCG because I attended with them for well over a decade. I've been to their HQ in Milford. I watched the split with COGWA. I don't mind anything else you say in any of your other comments, but when you whitewash UCG, it makes me want to puke.

You can't tar and feather COGs, as you do, and rightly so, without also tarring and feathering UCG, and COGWA to boot, with the same strokes. They've all partaken of the same poison apple. Even if you whitewash UCG afterwards, the tar and the feathers are still there, and pretty obviously too.

I imagine you, stereotypically out on the range, rough n' ready, with a stetson and a Marlboro. According to the same stereotype I imagine you'd be a straight shooter who says what he means, means what he says, and doesn't suffer fools. Then you talk out of both sides of your mouth, and I wonder if you even live in Wyoming at all.

That's it, now I'll put the kid gloves back on.

Joe Moeller said...


Well I dont believe in you either! I dont believe you really are an Usher! ... So there, nanny, nanny!

Actually, even though it is absolutely the "plain truth" and that I honestly and truthfully testify to you, that I can quote you cattle futures
24/7, out of respect to you, and to your contributions here to BANNED over time, I have decided to come clean to you...

My real name is ....

Your Friend,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Steve Kisack said...

Isn't there a dictionary word for someone who won't accept the truth, but hides in the open by trying to be funny with the jokes? I think it has to do with escaping areas of one's life of which he is not in control. So be it. The blind will always lead the blind.

Head Usher said...

Fair enough, it's been a long time since I did any ushering, and I was certainly never a good enough christian to qualify to be the head usher. Oh my, the cat's out of the bag.

But seriously, I'll take that as a concession on all points except your identity, which wasn't originally supposed to be a point anyway. I have no probelem with your photo, your stetson, or your Marlboros. 'Nuff said.

Anonymous said...

"...when you whitewash UCG, it makes me want to puke."

I agree.

And the fact that someone comes here to shill for the UCG cult is sad and totally disgusting.

Anonymous said...

Joe Moeller said...
My real name is ....ROBIN WEBBER
Your Friend,
Joe Moeller

I think Joe Moeller is full of shit as usual, like when he's shilling for the UCG and claiming they're the greatest church in existence.

(If I'm wrong Joe, tell us what OTHER modern day church it is that you believe to be better than the UCG.)

Byker Bob said...

If we are to believe the results of Gary's survey, then there is a sizeable, largely noncommenting or anonymous audience to whom Joe is actually of service. UCG, or "diet Armstrongism" can act as a cushioning halfway house for anyone aspiring to escape the clutches of the most toxic, cultic, and repressive ACOGs as they hopefully segue towards their own personal relationship with God and leave Armstrongism behind.


Anonymous said...

Yes, even if Joe is shilling for the UCG, the UCG is one of the less bad churches along the "Armstrongist continuum of crappy churches"

All of them totally suck, but the UCG is less sucky than many if you're brainwashed enough to need a sucky Armstrongist church to look to for comfort.