The Two Witless Witnesses: Men In Black?

Chiropractor/naturopath/end time prophet/self proclaimed authority on 2012 and  the COG, Bob Thiel claims that the two witnesses are sitting in the Living Church of God right now.  Who they are he has no idea, but the only logical explanation is that only LCG could produce those two righteous people.  Anyone outside LCG is an ignorant fool and is to be ignored.

Of course, I do believe that God will raise up the two witnesses, and I believe that they are alive now.  However, I believe that they are very likely to be part of the Living Church of God, so when I get emails from people outside of the COG who make such claims (and who never have any real proof, just assertions) I feel that they can safely be eliminated from consideration.

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He claims to have gotten a letter recently from a man and his daughter claiming to be the two witness, as well as from another person

He then launches into the two witless witnesses Ronnie Weinland and his wife. At least Bob has the brains to see the witless witnesses as the complete morons they are.


But, then goes on to say that whenever the witnesses arrive on the scene they will be wearing some kind of dark clothing:

3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, And I make sackcloth their covering (Isaiah 50:3).
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood (Revelation 6:12).

The implication in the above scriptures is that biblical sackcloth is black–thus it seems that the two witnesses wear some cloth that is black, hence my use of the Men in Black photo at the beginning of this article.

 While it is remotely possible that the two witnesses will not wear actual physical sackcloth, Revelation 11:13 is not speaking of just humility, but specifically that the clothing of the two witnesses will not be fancy–probably in contrast to the beast, who is likely to be flashy/wealthy in appearance.And in particular, I also suspect that the two witnesses actually will sometimes wear some literal sackcloth, at least at times. And that they will wear at least some black while they are publicly warning the world.

Bobby Fischer Against The World (and WCG)

New HBO documentary on Bobby Fisher includes Worldwide Church of God failed prophecies as part of Fischer's declining mental state.

Bobby Fischer Against The World 

WCG Ministers Taught Members to "Rat On One Another"

Oh the wonderful legacy of Armstrongism!  

The former WCG members are a couple of minutes into the video:

The REAL Cause of GTA's Death Revealed At Last!

I guess all of us dumb fools out here in COGland bought into the story that GTA died from a staph infection as a result of a hospitalization.

Did you know there is another more sinister reason he died?  This COG member on one of the right wing COG Yahoo boards thinks so!  Teddy was killed because of the message he preached!

I have said before that I continue to be amazed at the stupidity that comes out of Armstrongites. Tonight just drives that point home!  What an idiot!

  I agree totally!! My wife has always felt that GTA was actually murdered at that hospital that he was in!! If you recall he was very condemning of the homo lifestyle and could have been murdered by one of them including a possible homo doctor!!

Aaron Dean on GTA and HWA's Relationship

RE: [elijahforum] GTA on YouTube

While I would agree a lot of people heard GTA as 1st contact, it was the writings of HWA that convincted them.

I cannot agree that "others had a vested interest in keeping them apart".  From 1980 to 86, I answered the phone when Ted called, and I would ALWAYS tell HWA that Ted was calling, and he always called the home, not the office.  Always his statement was (and GTA heard it as I held the phone up and would ask if he heard his father.) "He knows what he has to do". All GTA had to do was write a simple letter to his father so he would know it would not be a shouting match if he did talk to him, and GTA would not do that.  It served GTA's purpose better to say he was being kept away by others. After every call was an interview within a day or two where GTA would say "I was cut off from speaking to my father", or "I tried yesterday to call and my father won't speak to me."  It was frustrating for me cause I would ask why don't you write the letter.

Stan Rader would have had an interest in keeping them apart, but that doesn't explain 1980 to his death in 1986 when Stan was gone. (Actually SRR had an interest in keeping HWA away from Pasadena in the 70's, not just away from GTA. But GTA had an interest in keeping HWA away from Pasadena as well - because the college was falling apart.) GTA used the estrangement for PR with the press, and with his church. (When meeting with CGI - they told me they were in the room when GTA made the calls, and only would say "See, cut off again". They were never told what HWA or I said, or that GTA had actually heard his father's voice.

I talked to GTA at HWA's funeral, and he admitted that I had never cut him off. I had always liked GTA since I knew him from the time I was 4 years old. I even flew with him when his father had the heart attack and GTA used the G-II.  I bear no ill toward him, but that part of the statement below is inaccurate.

Aaron

He was never convicted of a crime.
However, there were those inside and outside the church who were criminals and had a vested interest in making sure that Garner Ted and his father were kept apart permanently and that Garner Ted's reputation was destroyed in order to take down the Church of God.

GTA: The Mincemeat King?

On my favorite wacky Yahoo board filled with over zealous law spitting legalists, a person posted a comment that people should watch the John Ankerberg interviews with GTA.

There are thirteen of these videos

Another person quickly piped in, "Why would anyone watch this pervert?"

This comment did not sit well with a COG woman who thinks she also is a professional Jew.  She had this to say:

He was never convicted of a crime.
However, there were those inside and outside the church who were criminals and had a vested interest in making sure that Garner Ted and his father were kept apart permanently and that Garner Ted's reputation was destroyed in order to take down the Church of God.

The online tapes of Garner Ted  and  John Ankersberg are fun. Garner Ted makes mincemeat out of the other men he debates.
Whatever he might be, he knew his bible inside out, backwards and forwards, he knew how to prove what he said too.
A great number came into the church of God through the work on Garner Ted Armstrong on television and radio.

It's funny to read her comment that GTA made mincemeat of Ankerberg.  Almost all in the Christian community say that Ankerberg makes mincemeat of GTA.

The same foolishness is also claimed about GTA making mincemeat of those who believe in evolution.  Evolution was GTA's big moneymaker for a while.  Quick, witty, editorializing without any substantial proof, spit out to try and discredit scientists.  GTA sounded impressive to the ordinary COG member who almost assuredly did not have higher education.  Plus, by the fact that GTA had attended and graduated from God's College, he therefore knew what he was talking about.  GTA never had a real education in a real college.  He had a team of researchers who would hunt and hunt until they found someone who agreed with the stance that GTA had or the church had.  They they would reword it and make it GTA's own.

Then what about glossing over GTA's rampant adultery and sexual harassment court cases.  How many women did this guy need to have sex with, assault or rape before he was guilty? Two hundred?  75?  Or just one?

Did You Bow Down Before the New Moon Tonight?

I still amazes me how those steeped in all the myriad of laws that Armstrongism has yoked it's members with, that some of those same members seek out and find myriads of other 'laws' that they 'require' of 'true' followers.

Apostle Malm has been commanding that true Christians (COGers only) are COMMANDED to observe monthly new moons with bible study and celebration meals, prepared of course BEFORE sundown.

ANNOUNCEMENTS: After sunset ending June third, the first  light of the New Moon will be visible at Jerusalem.  This begins the first day of the Third Biblical month by the Biblical Calendar. Four June in the New Moon Day, which we observe with a family Bible Study and special meal [prepared BEFORE Sabbath] to sanctify the new month as  prophesied for the Kingdom and observed in ancient Israel.  

The New Moon is NOT a High Holy Day; it is a consecration of the new month and is commanded to be observed by God. The New Moon falls into the category of the Passover and Wave Offering as being commanded to be observed, yet short of a Sabbath or Holy Day.

 In the Kingdom it will be a required observance for all flesh, Is 66:23, Ez 46:3. Today we should have a special Bible Study [a personal or family study if your group is not yet ready to obey God in this matter] in lieu of the commanded sacrifices; it would also be appropriate to have a festive meal as done by ancient Israel: example King Saul.

 How do you know exactly when the new moon is occurring?  You will be told by a Karaite Jew in Jerusalm who blows on his shofar.  Once he blows the horn you are commanded to worship  the moon.


The New Moon has been confirmed by actual observance at sunset this evening in Jerusalem.  Welcome the Sabbath and the New Moon with the Shofar.

Is it just me are all Armstrongites getting crazier by the minute?

One of the Bible's Most Accurate Statements

"Prophecies Shall Fail"

One of the Bible's Most Accurate Statements

One of the hallmark traits of most Fundamentalist Christians is their obsession with Bible Prophecy. Prophecy has a rather mystical draw to it and implies that the future is not so unknowable after all. Most humans spend their waking time either in the past feeling angry or in speculation of the future feeling anxious. It goes with not having the ability to live the real day one is currently experience. Many Christians have raised knowing the future to an art form and have learned that it is also quit profitable for the church in keeping members in line with fear, anxiety and a perverse kind of hope.

Bible prophecy and making it the center of one's life, reading the newspaper as one would the Bible, is a slippery slope and a very negative way to live one's life.  How many times do we have to learn this!


With enough study, one can learn that there are other explanations for that which many hold so near and dear as predictions of things that will happen "shortly" in the future. No one seems to think that "shortly" for whoever really wrote Revelation has now been over Two Thousand Years! I hate to think what "I'll be back later" would mean!

We have learned to develop the bad habit of reading Paul's predications of "time is short" with the same generous deference to the fact that short for Paul never really quite worked out for him either. We all know the cycle Paul went through of telling the Church to be ready, act as if you had no family and support the Church, to his final realization that "oh well, I fought a good fight, it was fun while it lasted, I was wrong... I still win... see ya."


On the other hand, we have areas of scripture that have always been used as prophecy which, to me, are simply not and never were intended to be by the original authors. 


For example...

Isaiah 7 is an example of such misuse of a use of OT scripture by NT authors. One of many.  This virgin birth prophecy ranks as one of the most questionable uses of scripture Matthew used to tell his story of Jesus birth. Matthew had a habit of mining the OT for anything that seemed like it fit the story he wanted to tell about Jesus.

When one examines the OT context, we have to conclude that, that at least in it's original meaning, it was never meant to have the meaning Matthew assigned it. In fact, in its original context, it has absolutely nothing to do with prophecy but is merely a historical account of events going on at the time. It was never viewed as a prophecy of the birth circumstances of either the Jewish Messiah or Jesus until Matthew mined it for it's story telling value to his perspective. Matthew took the parts that fit his story but left out parts of that same story in Isaiah that obviously made no sense to his perspective on Jesus. If you simply look at Matthew's accounts of Jesus birth story, it is easy to see he cobbled it together in the style of the day from OT scriptures and not real events that he knew of. It is not my point to explain all this here, and I have touched on it in past columns.  "Immanuel" does not mean "God with us" as in Jesus is God with us.  Rather it means, "God IS with us," and the us is Israel back in the OT that was fearing Assyrian annihilation. Isaiah meant that before this child grows up to learn right from wrong, the Assyrian problem will not be a problem.  Jesus was never literally named "Immanuel."  

Another aspect of "prophecy" we miss is that much of what the COGs use to promote their urgency upon the membership is probably prophecy written after the fact, which makes it really non-prophecy.

Either the book of Daniel was written during the time of the events recorded, 585 BC, or as many scholars now feel, it was written much later in the 160's BC to encourage the Maccabeans in their revolt against Rome. It was written AFTER all the events prophesied took place, which is why Daniel 11 is so specific. Daniel 12 then becomes rather generic because after the rise of Rome, the authors didn't really know the rest of the story much after the specifics of the 160's ended.

The point is that we all know that OUR lives were lived, and many still live their lives out, linking Daniel to Matthew 24, which also was written to address issues now long past from our times.

Again it is not my purpose to prove that to you, but I have accepted that much of what we call history prophesied is really "prophecy" historicized, or the conforming of later writings to fit events as they had already occurred. If the detail of Daniel 11 is the kind of thing that is able to be locked in stone for future fulfillment, then we as humans have no choice in the part we have to play in the game as it is already decided for us evidently down to the details. It's a philosophical problem to me about choices and free will.

Other problem with prophecy is that they simply didn't come true. We all were groomed with the fantastic story of the fall of Tyre and how it would be scraped bare never to be inhabited etc. The problem is it wasn't and the city of Tyre existed in NT times and does to this day. The Tyranians rebuffed Nebuchadnezzar and only succumbed to Alexander the Great, yet still exists. It's a cop out to point out ancient ruins in the water as proof of prophecy fulfilled when the city called Tyre is just over your shoulder. These facts are easily found in a simple search on the topic.

Ezekiel's Failed Prophecies on Tyre and Egypt

Ezekiel made a prophecy that, at the time he wrote, seems most likely to be fulfilled. The prophet was writing, in 587BC, at the time when Nebuchadnezzar was laying siege on Tyre. With such a powerful army like Nebuchadnezzar's, it was not surprising that Ezekiel prophesied the fall of Tyre to the Babylonian king.

Ezekiel 26:7-14: For thus says the Lord: "Behold I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a hosts of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers...With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword and your mighty pillar will fall to the ground...they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses... I will make you a bare rock...you shall never be rebuilt, for I have spoken," says the Lord God.

The whole passage clearly prophesied the sack and complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. However, the vivid description of the sack and fall of Tyre never happened. After a siege of thirteen years, until 573BC, Nebuchadnezzar lifted his siege on Tyre and had to arrive at a compromised agreement. Thus Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, 240 years later. And furthermore, despite the prophet, the city of Tyre was eventually rebuilt.

When Nebuchadnezzar broke the gates down he found the city almost empty. The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about one half mile off the coast and fortified the city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573, but the city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years.

The implication of this paragraph is clear: that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed a major portion of Tyre. Tyre's main city was always on the island. The part of the city on the mainland is nothing more than a suburb. In other words, Nebuchadnezzar could achieve no more than take over a relatively minor part of the city. Furthermore it is obvious from the passage in Ezekiel that the complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar was prophesized. Ezekiel himself admitted that this prophecy was a mistake!

Ezekiel 29:17-20: ...the Lord God came to me: "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had performed against it... (Website: Rejection of Pascal's Wager)

The prophecies of both Isaiah and Ezekiel against Egypt also fell far short of reality in their "fulfillment."

"The prophet Isaiah, for instance, foretold the drying up of all the waters of the Egypt, and the destruction of all land used for plantation due to this drying up of the River Nile.

Isaiah 19:5-7: And the waters of the Nile will be dried up, and the river will be parched and dry; and its canal will become foul, and the branches of Egypt's Nile will diminish and dry up, reeds and rushes will rot away. There will be bare places by the Nile, on the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile will dry up, be driven away, and be no more.

This part of Isaiah, widely accepted by scholars to be written around the eighth century BC, is about 2750 years old. And in all this period of two and three quarters millennia, this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled! Moreover it is clear from the context that Isaiah prophecy was meant for the Egypt of his time. For it was with that Egypt that Isaiah and his people had a grievance against, and the prophecy was a warning to them. Obviously this is a clear example of an unfulfilled prophecy." (Website: Rejection of Pascal's Wager)

I only point these out because so many would NEVER entertain the idea that any prophecy of the Bible didn't come true and will launch any number and kind of apologetic to defend what was said would be from what really occurred in history. Some of you are doing that right now.. :)

The last Pope would be the last Pope and now this Pope will be the last Pope and I expect the next Pope will also be the last Pope.

Orginal

And now we again live in a time where "prophecy" can manipulate real lives. There are any number of those who just know how it will all be. The kings of all directions are doing this and that..."just read my article and see for yourself." Every world news event , like in the 60's or 70's or 80's, is worthy of note. The last Pope would be the last Pope and now this Pope will be the last Pope and I expect the next Pope will also be the last Pope.

Meanwhile we get older but not the wiser for the experience. What we'll end up with is drawing every imagined prophetic event to ourselves in reality as some government leaders even seem to base policy on "what the Bible says." It is very possible to cause things to happen because one expects them to happen. The problem is you end up with all the damage and none of the salvation. In short, an end of the world scenario can be acted out based on false subconscious beliefs and yet still you end up with no Second Coming, World Tomorrow or Kingdom of God. You end up screwed up.

So why might it be better not to LIVE your actual life around the alleged reality and truth of prophecy and the "imminent" return of Jesus which has been imminent now for a couple thousand years?

I've been there, I've done this. I've lived my real life ahead of my actual life while it quietly slipped by. I've made life decisions in the past based on a preoccupation with the future. I've also let a lot of precious life time go by thinking about things that proved to be untrue and teaching things that weren't. I thought they were, but when one realizes they aren't, it would be hoped one would stop that. I did.

I've been there, I've done this. I've lived my real life ahead of my actual life while it quietly slipped by. I've made life decisions in the past based on a preoccupation with the future. I've also let a lot of precious life time go by thinking about things that proved to be untrue and teaching things that weren't.

Basing a life on what may or may not happen in the future, and Bible types did it all the time and were wrong too, is to miss the present. And whether one admits it or not , the present is all we ever actually really have to work with. Your kids really are their ages they are NOW and one does not postpone making memories with them now because the future is a more serious consideration. They will NEVER again be kids, and you and I will never again be any younger. For Paul, to live might be loss and to die gain, but that theological rhetoric and let's face it, Paul never, from what we can note, ever had to enjoy his children, mate or life in the now. He was in the imminent future right up until it bit him in the bum. He may have had the power to have a wife, great word there, "power", but I bet he was basically not one the women would flock to to begin with.

If you are still in a COG, does your Sabbath experience, weekends that your kids also have to call their free time, only consist for them of coming, sitting and going? How often we forget that the parents generally got to make their life decisions but then deny them to their children. I know, "raise up your child in the way he should go.."

Problem I have is with the "should go."

I'm amazed after all these decades the COG still can't figure out whether to eat out on the Sabbath! Do you really believe some Deity cares! Do you really think there are angels taking names!

I used to take my kids to the local zoo on Sabbaths after church. This was in the 1970's. I have never regretted spending MANY a Friday night with them when little swimming at the YMCA and stopping at Dunkin Donuts on the way home. That ritual of the "now" is far more remembered than any sermon I may have given that day. But for some, depending on their prophecy laden pastor, life is just one big "around the corner", "just a little longer" and never ending "gun lap." I had kidded for years that we have been in the gun lap so often, we run the risk of running out of bullets. Little did I know that was a prophecy that would come true!

Prophecy means little to me at this point in my life. It may mean a lot to some of you depending on who is feeding the need to know what I don't think we can know in this world. We can hid behind the idea that we know God is doing this or that, but that's pretty iffy knowing.

Whatever your position, at least know that even the Bible got it wrong at times, not matter what your pastor says or how your church motivates you with prophecy to live on the edge of your chair, just a bit ahead of the now, in somewhat a fearful or at least anxious, "what's going to happen" state. Isaiah was wrong, Ezekiel was wrong, Paul was wrong and yes, even Jesus was mistaken in his own perceptions of his own experience. That's another story.
If we can be wise enough to see that even Bible prophecies indeed have failed, that some prophecies are not really prophecies , and that reading the newspaper as if it were the Bible come to life is not wise, we might actually have a life in the now we can say was a real life. A life lived in anticipation of some alleged future is not a real life. It's disillusionment in the making.

I'm going to go out on my own limb of prophecy here. I predict that all the leaders of any COG who promote prophecy first and have not really ever given a sermon using the ideas in this article, will live out their lives and come to the same conclusions Paul did. They kept a Faith and now it's time to pass on.

I predict that Churches like PCG and RCG will pass from the scene when their ' me only'  leadership does. One can only get so much mileage out of playing the sermons on world events by those who died years ago. Yet I guess we do that when repeating Paul's admonitions of the shortness of time forgetting it is long since past when he felt it would end. We do it when we say "Behold I come quickly" when that quickly was over 2000 years ago.

I predict that WCG (Grace International Fellowship) will become a meaningless footnote to the Christian experience. I mean why belong to something in California that is everywhere you live? What holds scattered groups together is being special and having special insights into "The Middle East, What Next." And "Will You Be in the Place of Safety." Don't get me started!

I predict more people will avail themselves of the Internet to do their own studies and come to their own conclusions. I always had to ask a pastor because somehow I thought he must know. After all, he was an "expert" on the Bible. Now you can ask lots of pastors and scholars and even those who used to be and no longer can abide it. I predict the era of Guru's will end for those who learn to think and search a matter out from many and not just one source. I would hope that people in congregations dominated by one grand idea spoken by one grand human being will finally wake up and not care if asking a question or questioning a sermon or concept gets them kicked out. Being kicked out, terminated, fired, marginalized or blocked at the door can be the greatest freedom you'll ever experience if you ever choose to reclaim your own brain and perspectives. Remember...ANY TIME you are listening to another human being tell you how it is, and your get that little "uh oh" in the tummy....listen to it! It's the truth trying to have a chat with you.

I predict many will keep on believing the unbelievable because that's what humans do to keep fear and uncertainty at bay. I do it, you do it.

I predict that very few people give a rats... bum... about what I think!

Don't live in anticipation of possible future. We can't know and no one has ever gotten it right. All prophecies about the Second Coming of Jesus have failed to date 100% ! Don't miss your NOW for that idea that just around the corner, me and mine will be justified in forgetting to enjoy the one life we know we NOW have on this planet. It's a dangerous world to be sure, this does not mean it is the result of prophets who themselves missed their own marks way back.

A life based on Prophecy as interpreted by someone who thinks they know and enforced upon one as fact , just wait and see, is going to be a stressed one at best. You are also going to have to give up a few bucks hard earned to keep the mythology and the grand poopa in prediction mode. Remember there is Addiction to Predictions. Don't allow yourself to wake up decades older with grown kids having regrets you didn't go to the zoo or stop at Dunkin Donuts in their jammies on the way home....even on the Sabbath.



Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com

Church Members Turning Their Backs On Their Kids

You would think that with Herbert Armstrong restoring the one true religion after 1,900 years and creating the ONLY true church on the face of the earth that it would be a place of refuge and comfort for the dispossessed.  But no, it actually worked the opposite way.  It destroyed families, wrecked marriages, caused the deaths of thousands because of medical doctrines, and contribute to the suicides of hundreds more.

There have been numerous cases through the years of church members kicking their kids out of the house for one reason or another.  One woman has written a little about her life when she was 13 and decided she no longer wanted to attend church with her mother.  Her mother basically turned her back on her as did the rest of the family.  Not until her brothers and sisters left WCG did there ever begin some healing.  Of course her mother still ignores her because she currently is in some splinter cult (probably Flurry's cult).  Read Amelia's story here I was Abandoned By My Family

What I want to describe is the emotional anguish of someone who was abandoned by their family simply because I could not in my deepest soul believe what they believed. Intrinsically, I knew the WCG was wrong for me. What I didn’t realize was that my family would cast me out because I did not believe. For 15 years my family would have nothing to do with me because their "family" was the "church." I was ostracized, unwelcome, and had none of the "normal" family contact. My mother told no one that she had an eldest daughter. I was never mentioned to anyone as a sister, and when I came to visit my parents at their home, they were embarrassed to receive me and couldn’t wait for me to leave. I felt like a pariah.

There is a guy on Facebook who is telling those that are discussing the things they went trough and the abuse they received in WCG, to "just get over it'.

Armstrongism continues to this day to stick its head in the sand concerning what it has done to its youth.  They think summer camps and "Winter Festivals" makes it OK.  They can remain diligent (suffer) through absurd doctrine but can be rewarded with a little fun now and then.

Why Churches Suck

Let's see what this stirs up.......  :-)

Why Churches Suck

The Nasty New Taste of Funda-gelicalism.

In the world of candy, Reese’s is known as “two great tastes that taste great together.” In the church world, Funda-gelicalism is sort of the opposite—a toxic combination of two flavors of Christianity that not only taste terrible together, but that inevitably infect and sicken the ones who consume it. Watch out—this new flavor has become available at all church denominations, and may already be being served up at a church near you.