Church of God Network Podcast On Former Restored Church of God Member

I have mixed emotions about this podcast, but it does illustrate how the old boy's network that runs so many of the Churches of God is irrelevant in their actions and completely out of touch with the younger members of the church. It takes the younger members of the church to start making a difference.

The podcast starts off by making a point that the Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, and Church of God Preaching the Kingdom are NOT representative of the broader Church of God community and they do not include them in the COG Network links and materials.

Her take on Dave Pack's new sermon series and failed prophecies is interesting in how he confuses everyone. This is also what started her down the path of leaving the cult.

Carisa's story is fascinating to hear.

I am interested in what your take is on this.

Does The Feast Of Tabernacles Describe The Millennium As The COG Teaches?

The Feast of Tabernacles Does NOT Picture the Millennium!

In Pagan Holidays – or God’s Holy Days – Which? Herbert Armstrong wrote about the symbolism of the Feast of Tabernacles: “This festival is the picture of the Millennium!” Unfortunately, when Armstrong decided that Christians were obligated to observe the festivals outlined in the Pentateuch for the Israelites, he was not careful to follow scriptural hints regarding the deeper spiritual implications/meanings of the days. Since his death, a great many folks have challenged his understandings about the symbolism involved in some of the other holy days. Even so, Armstrong’s teachings about the meaning of the FOT still enjoy widespread acceptance within the Armstrong Churches of God culture.

The problem with Mr. Armstrong’s understanding of this feast was his slavish devotion to the notion that they pictured a progression of events within God’s plans for humankind. Hence, although he recognized the significance of the spring and fall harvests relative to these festivals, he failed to integrate that understanding with other scriptures related to both the symbolic meanings of certain rituals and the events themselves. “How can that be?” his devoted followers will demand.

In the booklet referenced at the beginning of this post, Armstrong wrote: “To portray His plan, God took the yearly material harvest seasons in ancient Israel as the picture of the spiritual harvest of souls. In the Holy Land there are two annual harvests. The first is the spring grain harvest. Second comes the main harvest. Notice that the Festival of Tabernacles is to be held ‘at the year's end’ (Ex. 34:22). In this verse the Festival of Tabernacles or Booths is specifically called the ‘feast of ingathering.’ The harvest year ended at the beginning of autumn. Just as Pentecost pictures the early harvest — this church age, so the Festival of Ingatherings or Tabernacles pictures the fall harvest — the great harvest of souls in the Millennium!”

The problem with this teaching is that it doesn’t agree with what is revealed about the timing of this great harvest of souls which is elaborated on in the book of Revelation! In the twentieth chapter of that book, we read: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” – Revelation 20:4-5 Notice here that the first resurrection is clearly associated with the millennium. Continuing, we read: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison…And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” – Revelation 20:7-13 Hence, we can clearly see that this great harvest of souls takes place AFTER the millennium, and AFTER Satan and his minions have been dealt with once and for all!

Moreover, Herbert Armstrong completely ignored the profound symbolism surrounding this festival which is recorded in the oft quoted twenty-third chapter of Leviticus, and which is further elaborated on quite extensively in the New Testament! I know that these arguments will have zero impact on the folks who have willingly swallowed the Armstrong Kool-Aid, but it is my hope that serious students of the Bible who are willing to take a second look might be persuaded by what is clearly revealed in Scripture regarding the symbolism of this festival.

In the book of Leviticus, we read: “Remember that this seven-day festival to the Lord – the Festival of Shelters – begins on the fifteenth day of the month, after you have harvested all the produce of the land…On the first day gather branches from magnificent trees – palm fronds, boughs from leafy trees, and willows that grow by the streams…For seven days you must live outside in little shelters. All native-born Israelites must live in shelters. This will remind each new generation of Israelites that I made their ancestors live in shelters when I rescued them from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’” (Leviticus 23:39-43, New Living Translation –here and throughout the rest of this article, unless otherwise noted)

Scripture indicates that the Israelites were told to live in temporary shelters each year for eight days so that they would not forget that they had lived in tents after leaving Egypt and before reaching the Promised Land. In the book of Hebrews, we read: “It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to LEAVE HOME (emphasis mine here and throughout) and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, HE LIVED THERE BY FAITH – for he was like a foreigner living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.” (Hebrews 11:8-10) In short, Abraham and his descendants were looking forward to a better and more permanent home.

A little further, we read: “All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. THEY AGREED THAT THEY WERE FOREIGNERS AND NOMADS HERE ON EARTH. Obviously, people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” (Hebrews 11:13-16) Do we begin to see the connection to our own circumstances as Christians?

Like the Israelites of old, God has called us out of Egypt (this sinful society) and has led us out into the wilderness. (John 6:44) We are different and peculiar compared to the people around us. (I Peter 2:9) Like the Israelites, we are heirs of the promises made to Abraham. (Galatians 3:29) Finally, we are also like the Israelites in the sense that we too are looking for a Promised Land (the Kingdom of God). Like the patriarchs of old, we are truly strangers and pilgrims on the earth as it now exists – the one deceived and influenced by Satan the devil.

There is, however, another meaning to this symbolism that is less general and more personal. Although it is unpleasant to contemplate, each one of us has an appointment with death. (Hebrews 9:27) Somewhere in the back of our minds, all of us understand that this life that we are currently enjoying is temporary – it will not last forever (we are subject to time and chance). Paul once told the saints at Corinth, “that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.” (I Corinthians 15:50) He went on to tell them that “our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.” (I Corinthians 15:53)

Sometime later, Paul wrote another letter to the Corinthians. He told them that the light of Christ was shining in their hearts, but he described that treasure as residing in fragile clay jars. (II Corinthians 4:7) He talked about how Christians must face many trials and perils because of their association with Jesus Christ, but that this had resulted in them having the hope of eternal life. (II Corinthians 4:8-15) He continued: “That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. For our present troubles are small AND WON’T LAST VERY LONG. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.” (II Corinthians 4:16-18)

In other words, Paul understood that Christians are currently living in temporary shelters (human bodies), and that they are looking forward to the time when they will be living in a permanent home (spiritual bodies). In his second letter to the saints at Corinth, we read: “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” (II Corinthians 5:1-4, KJV)

Peter also understood this concept. In addressing the saints toward the close of his ministry, he wanted to remind them about the truths which he had previously conveyed to them. He wrote: “Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.” (II Peter 1:13-14, KJV) Peter understood that this life is not permanent, and that he was going to die. He also knew that his present body could not inherit the Kingdom of God, and that he would have to shed that body and receive a new one in the resurrection.

As strangers and pilgrims in this world, Christians are looking to exchange a temporary home for a more permanent one (one that God has provided for us). Hence, for us, this is an important component of the symbolism of this Old Testament Festival.

And, finally, perhaps the most important component of this symbolism has to do with our relationship with Christ and Almighty God – the fact that Christ tabernacled with us in the past and will do so again someday with the Father! We read in the Gospel According to John that the “Word was made flesh and dwelt <tabernacled> among us.” – John 1:14, KJV Then, at the conclusion of all things, we are told in the book of Revelation: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” - Revelation 21:1-3 I don’t know about you, but I think that this symbolism beats Armstrong’s teachings on the subject by a mile!

By Lonnie Hendrix

Fred Coulter on COG's Who Expect Members To Leave Their Estates To The Church

 

Almost all of the various COG splinter groups have set up ways for members to turn over their estates to the church upon their death. Most of them do not care if family members are shut out of wills and inheritances. The only concern is the money that they would get. The Worldwide Church of God was notorious for doing this, so all of the splinter groups are following suit. WCG was taken to court numerous times over the decades by family members disinherited and left with nothing, including some left destitute. In each instance, the WCG fought vigorously to keep the money, and most of the time they prevailed. The Ambassador Report has several stories about this appalling behavior by the church. The greed inherent in so many COG groups has them doing the same thing today. The more you give the more your blessing will be and your place in the Kingdom of God. Your chance of becoming a god depends upon it!

Surprisingly, Fred Coulter does not approve of this.  He recently said the following:

And I can tell you this right now, too many of them are in the same mode as Worldwide doctrinally and also monetarily. That they're doing everything to keep the money coming in. And the great sin of some of the Churches of God is that they work out end-of-life wills so that the money will go to the Church. That is stealing from the families and the inheritors the inheritance that is due them. That is evil, that you would take the inheritance from those who die in the faith. Before they die you talk them into leaving all their funds to the Church for the retirement of the elders!

You let that sink in for a minute! What is God going to do? The day will come, because you're robbing the families of their rightful inheritance!

This has to be about the only thing worthwhile from this man. His theology is just a sick as Bob Thiel's, Pack and Flurry's.

Quietly Dismissing Herbert Armstrong

 

ARMSTRONGISM 2021

 

Although folks like Gerald Flurry and David Pack have embraced Herbert Armstrong, many of the descendants of the Worldwide Church of God NEVER mention his name. They like to pretend that Herbert Armstrong and/or Garner Ted Armstrong have/had absolutely NOTHING to do with them. They continue to adhere to and preach many of their doctrines, but they act as if they have derived their teachings directly from the pages of the Bible. In effect, they have chosen to deal with the sordid history of their movement by pretending that it all never happened, or that they have somehow moved beyond those men and their failures.

It’s like saying that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had/have NOTHING to do with the United States of America! It’s like saying that Karl Marx had/has NOTHING to do with Communism in the Twenty-First Century, or that Colonel Sanders had/has NOTHING to do with Kentucky Fried Chicken! To be fair, Armstrongism isn’t the first religious movement to attempt to put some distance between themselves and their founder (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Charles Russell or Anglicans and King Henry VIII).

For groups like the United Church of God and Church of God International who claim to have moved beyond their founder’s failures, when pressed, they will almost always identify issues of government, administration and/or character as the principal failures of the founders of the movement (and the things which they have “corrected”). Unfortunately, even in these “liberal” organizations, the “core teachings” of Armstrongism are defended and preserved. And, while most of the critics of the movement would acknowledge problems in all of those areas, the elephant in the room is the flawed THEOLOGY of Herbert Armstrong. In other words, to pretend as if there is absolutely nothing amiss with those teachings is ABSURD!

Sure, we all understand how hard it is to invest so much of one’s life and energy in something that turns out to be a major mistake. The potential damage to our ego/psyche/sense of self-worth is frightening, and we are not without other examples of this very real phenomenon that all longtime Armstrongites have faced (or avoided facing). On the secular side, a great many Americans continue to support Donald Trump because the prospect of dealing with the consequences of admitting that they made such a major error in judgement are simply too horrific to entertain – let alone admit! Hence, it is much easier to live in a fantasy world that denies or ignores where the REAL problems lie. Sorry folks, whether or not you’re willing to confront them, the ghosts of Herbie and Ted continue to haunt everything you do!

Lonnie Hendrix

 

Victor Kubik: UCG's Empathetic and Humble Leader

“We think you ought to know, dear brothers and sisters, about the trouble we went through in the province of Asia. We were crushed and overwhelmed beyond our ability to endure, and we thought we would never live through it. In fact, we expected to die. But as a result, we stopped relying on ourselves and learned to rely only on God, who raises the dead. And he did rescue us from mortal danger, and he will rescue us again. We have placed our confidence in him, and he will continue to rescue us” (2 Corinthians 1:8-10, NLT).

Through direct experience, Paul clearly relates how he learned to trust God for deliverance from mortal danger. His key point? God brought him through challenging trials again and again. Today, most of us have not even come close to facing such life and death situations. But we can certainly apply what Paul learned to the rocky road of life that we may be traveling on.

In this same chapter, Paul goes further to explain that life as a disciple of Jesus Christ isn’t just about mere survival. Our trials elevate us to a higher level of thinking and conduct. Our trial is not just about us. Trials give us an opportunity to learn how to reach out to others. God’s rescue is a big part of the story—but not the only part. In the narrative quoted here in 2 Corinthians, the more complete story is revealed by Paul:

“All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is our merciful Father and the source of all comfort. He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us. For the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ. Even when we are weighed down with troubles, it is for your comfort and salvation! For when we ourselves are comforted, we will certainly comfort you. Then you can patiently endure the same things we suffer. We are confident that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in the comfort God gives us” (2 Corinthians 1:3- 7, The Living Bible).

These passages first came to life in my Epistles of Paul class at Ambassador College. They made a vivid impression on me as a 20-year-old student. Over and over in my pastoral career these words repeatedly demonstrated where true leadership shines.

I have found that to be true leaders, we must step outside of ourselves and show ourselves exposed and humbled. A leader draws on his or her own pain as one sufferer among a common sea of sufferers. A leader uses his or her own experience to empathize with others. In my ministry over the years, my own personal tribulations helped me genuinely empathize with people in great pain.

Where was that empathy when he was still on Worldwide Church of God payroll as he was disfellowshipping people left and right because they disagreed with Tkach's new teachings, even though he himself did not agree with them and was privately working behind the scenes while on WCG payroll, to fragment the church and form a new one W.hen has Kubik ever suffered through tribulation in the church?

Jesus Christ left us a sterling example of going through painful ordeals for the purpose of encouraging us: “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempt- ed as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:15-16). UN

Jesus Christ certainly left us a sterling example of what a spiritual leader should be like.  Sadly, most COG leaders have never even tried to follow the guy. They are too busy trying to maintain the status quo they have assumed they deserve.

Why do COG members still feel the need that they still have to go to the ministers for answers?

We are heading down the slope into 2021 and after decades of upheaval in the church and with so many splinters filled with self-appointed lying men, why do some members still think they must go to the ministry to get answers to their questions?

After all that they have witnessed over the decades in the break up of the Worldwide Church of God into hundreds and hundreds of little splinter groups, all led by men whom Herbert Armstrong would have slapped silly for their self-important arrogance, to the latest blasphemous baloney from Flurry, Pack, Weinland, and Thiel, one would think that members and ex-members would have the mental capacity to make a decision on their own about the current state of affairs in the church.

Sadly, that is still not the case. There are still floundering people out there wandering around STILL looking for that right church to belong to. Still looking for a man to tell them what to do. Still incapable of making a decision on their own, so they run to any false teacher they can find to validate their indecision.

Several hours ago, I received an email from a former Worldwide Church of God member that included the following:

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT SOME ISSUES OF MR. …. BELIEF AND APPARENTLY YOU DON’T AGREE WITH.  I DON’T THINK THAT ANY OF THESE CHURCHES AGREE WITH OTHER SO WHO DO YOU GO WITH? …
SOME OF GERALD FLURRY’S TEACHINGS ARE COMPLETELY WRONG AND HE’S GONE FAR OUT ON SOME THINGS SUCH AS ARMSTRONG’S STONE REPLACING JACOB’S.  MANY, MANY PLACES IN THE BIBLE STATES THAT CHRIST IS THAT ROCK AND IT’S SPIRITUAL.  CHRIST DOESN’T NEED A ROCK.  FLURRY BASED HIS THEORY ON THE IDEA THAT COME KIDS STOLE JACOB’S ROCK FROM ENGLAND.  THAT’S AMAZING SINCE IT WEIGHS OVER 350 LBS.  I’VE READ OTHER LITERATURE THAT THE STONE IS STORED IN SCOTLAND.FALSE PREACHER #1
I SAW A DAVID PACK SERMON ON THE INTERNET ABOUT THE 2 WITNESSES .  HE SAID THAT THEY ARE IN HIS CHURCH RIGHT NOW.  I BELIEVE HE’S NOW PULLED THAT SERMON BECAUSE I COULDKN’T FIND IT NOW. FALSE PREACHER #2
I SAW A SERMON BY THE LIVING CHURCH OF GOD ABOUT THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND THE PRESENTER SAID WITHOUT HESITATION THAT THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS SUNDAY WORSHIP.  PERIOD.. HE MADE NO MENTION OF ANY MARKS ON YOUR BODY OR 666.  SABBATH MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, BUT THERE WILL BE OTHER FACTORS.  YOU LEFT BECAUSE OF DOCTRINE. I’LL  ????????? ….
NOW I COME TO …  A FALSE TEACHER …
YOU SEE HOW A PERSON COULD BE DECEIVED?
PLEASE ADVISE

This still questioning person had the ability to at least slightly perceive that Flurry, Pack, and LCG are wrong, and yet they run to one of the biggest liars the church currently has in it for an answer, Bob Thiel.

Here is what the great Dr. told the person:

Anyway, here is what I responded to the former WCG member with:

Dear …:
As I have repeatedly written at COGwriter, I doubt that David Pack or Gerald Flurry are converted.
I consider that the only COG that is Philadelphian is the CCOG–though not all in CCOG are Philadelphian and there are Philadelphians not in CCOG–but no other COG represents the continuation of Philadelphia.
You should use God’s criteria, and none other to decide.
Here are two links you should read and pray about if you are truly serious:<

1. How does the Continuing Church of God differ from other Sabbatarian COG groups?
2. Does the CCOG have the confirmed signs of Acts 2:17-18?

But most refuse to believe and use their own standards.
Best regards,
Bob Thiel

Of course, he is going to say Flurry and Pack are wrong.  How could he say anything less? To do so would take the spotlight off his amazing wisdom. After all, no human in the history of the world has ever been more set apart for the job of leading the church than the reincarnated Elijah, Elisha, Amos, Habbakuk, doubly-blessed, and self-appointed prophet Bob has dreamed into being. Remember that Dr. Eljah Bob's theological understanding is so far advanced that he felt the need to correct Rod Meredith and the Living Church of God.  When Meredith publicly rebuked Thiel from the pulpit and kicked him out of the church, the Great Elijah rose up in self-righteous anger due to the utter humiliation he felt. That's what started this whole shit show of absurdity.

As usual, the Great Bwana identifies his little group as the one and ONLY true church. The true heir of the so-called Philadelphia era of the church.

I consider that the only COG that is Philadelphian is the CCOG–though not all in CCOG are Philadelphian

Dr. Elijah Bob is right about one thing though, COG members and ex-members should use God's criteria and throw Bob's perverse theology and self-aggrandizing ministry back into the stinking pig trough where it came from.

All the pearls in the world cannot dress up an unclean pig especially when it wallows in some of the worst theological pig slop imaginable.

We must never forget that there is no COG leader on the face of the entire earth who is more converted than Dr. Elijah Bob, the Great Bwana, and savior of Africa. 

Dennis On: "They Come...They Go"

They come....They Go

Having been a 26 year pastor in 13 congregations in 5 states, and after having gone through the theological slaughter of the 90's perpetuated upon the membership by "leadership," of the WCG, I have to ask the question, where did all the friends go?


I found myself in an odd situation. I loved the people in my congregations and had many wonderful friendships and friends, I thought.  This final congregation in South Carolina was the toughest by far, even if everything was going well.  They were used to being rewarded by the minister for their loyalty and friends became deacons and included in the lives of all the brethren. There were always three or four waiting and chaffing at the chance to be the real minister.  Ugh!  I didn't work that way so quickly fell afoul of their system. I didn't take deacons on visits to  know and hear the problems of others.  That was not their business and people aren't honest when they feel they are being grilled.  One on one worked for me, because someday I'd be moving on.  At any rate, Church Picnics went from really fun to drama events. We stopped having them.


Some would tell me what the church was really up to at HQ and that this or that really was going to change. Dumb me would call Joe Tkach and simply ask him if A/B or C was true or not.  It was never true according to Joe.  It was ALWAYS true according to what actually came to be. As a result , I'd come back and tell the church all was well and then end up looking like a fool caught between the Administration that lied to me and the members who thought I was stupid and naive.  Of course I was..ha.   Thus, as the baloney in the middle of the sandwich, neither side kept much in touch.  That was my experience with friends.


The only time those who have either stayed with the new and improved version of the Church, which has changed it's name to distance itself from it's own past, or those that have left it for splinter groups that profess to keep the old ways intact, or those that have moved on to greener and more stable pastures, or the disillusioned meet is at funerals or in the final days of some former church friend. Sad isn't it? One has to be dying or dead to find out you had friends after all. But then unless you were having an out of body experience attending your own funeral, you'd not know. It is more comfortable being friends to the dying than the living. And I am sure after I am dead, thousands will once again say that we were friends. Dealing with a dead Diehl is easier than dealing with the real Diehl. :)


When churches implode, as they do, friendships explode. I can count on one hand the friendships that have stayed in tact since my being labeled a minister who "knew a lot about Jesus, but did not know Jesus" and then being terminated.  Don't misunderstand. I was outgrowing the literalism of any church but was in a transtion.  And...I have fingers left over!
It is reckless change and administration of policy that tears friendships apart when associated with churches and the hope the promote in their teachings. Local ministers, who can have their own dictatorial ways, can tear friendships apart as well by causing "friends" to make choices and take sides in endless and stupid disputes or personality cults.


In my own case, I have had more than one former member, whose children I had married and whose husbands I had buried, pass by me at the lobby desk in a hospital where work to make ends meet. I simply do not exist to them because I am no longer one of them, whatever that might mean. I have known minister friends who have drank themselves to death after reckless change confused them and their friends marginalized them for being hurt and confused. One minister even jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge if you can imagine that. That takes planning and a total lack of friends left to help you through. Suicide seems often the mistaken idea that the death of an old idea mistranslates into we think we have to die  It's a permanent solution to a short term problem. . Very sad but I understand it.


So when your church implodes, why do your friendships explode? There are several types of friendships built when we become a part of a church and their dynamics are all a bit different.
First of all, everyone in any particular believes that "we all have to be friends," because, well, we are in the Church. The common bond of similar or same beliefs is what constitutes the friendship. In any other setting, we would not be friends with most of these people as we would really have nothing else in common to hold it together. Thus, when the church implodes, the friendships explode, fall apart and are not salvageable. They are based on being in the common church with a common belief. When that falls apart, that is generally the end of your friendships.


If you leave the church in discouragement, anger or theology fatigue, you are now a seed fallen on bad ground. Those who you leave behind will read about you in Matthew as one of the seeds that fell on hard ground and when trials came alone etc, did not have the ability to survive. Of course, it will be a bullshit explanation, but it makes them feel good to see that they are off the friendship hook with you for being disillusioned, hurt, marginalized or just worn out by controversy. Without the church work, doctrine or goals, you have no friendship. These people will disappear quickly should you ever begin to wake up to the fact that NO church knows all it needs to know about the Bible to be THE one true church. Of course, since no one attends the one false church, you will be labeled, disfellowshipped, avoided and generally cast into the Lake of Fire, Hell or other imagined bad places for the wicked person you are. These are mere not friends that stick closer than brothers, or at least not unless you live in the same house. Since you moved out, you are no brother of theirs.


The second kind of church friends you will cultivate are genuine friends that are friends in spite of church. You have the church in common. You met at church, but you also have kids, ideas and needs in common and develop a friendship outside of just church stuff. Your kids grow up together, make fun of the church and minister together, as do you from time to time and it's just normal. But if you leave the Church or the Church leaves you, they have agonizing decisions to make. If they stay, they might sneak your friendship but if the Church was still the main draw, they eventually will leave you alone, high and dry. They might even leave the church themselves, but if they move on to an even more righteous church than the one they left, and you just became disillusioned and non-committal, they will spend some time getting you to follow them into the truer church, or drop you in time as well. They don't mean it. You're not being theologically tied to any belief and even willing to step outside boxes that lead to different conclusions about religion will leave you without these friends in time. They will feel sorry for you for not moving on to even an more true church in their quest for the one true one. These friends will make you feel icky if you insist on staying around them just because they are all you have left. They will make you feel inferior for your beliefs or lack of them compared to their now new and improved ones, which is always a sign you might need to just forget the friendship. It's not real.

Another group are those that may be somewhat like you in your skepticism and having learned more than the church would have wished you to learn from the whole experience. You'll have all the bitching in common about the past. You will have quality time living in, mulling over and analyzing the past, but when you tire of that and realize that your life is not going forward in the past, these friends will also dry up and blow away.

You may outgrow them and bring your life up into the present while they wallow in the past and you grow tired of it, or you may stay stuck and they move on. Either way, the friendship will dissolve in time, as friendship based on sharing only a bad experience is doomed in the long run. You'll know the "friendship" is over when they keep sending you updates on the goings on the past Church and you don't care. In the world of blogging and email, you may have attracted these types of friends because of your common disastrous experience, but you have never even met these people in real time and would not know them if they sat next to you. But you were friends, until you weren't.


I am writing this while listening to the great hymns of the Church. Me...Mr. Skeptical, listening to the old hymns. I get teary because it provokes the chemistry of a more simple time, when I was younger and didn't know I was going to learn and experience all I was going to with regards to Church, ministers, theology, politics, behavior, humans and reality.
Wait a sec, It is Well With My Soul is playing...gotta get teary...ok, back.


Seems a shame church friends who have suffered through the ridiculous and reckless folly of those who are determined to not think change through, have to meet only at funerals of the wounded and now dead friends of the past. Maybe if someone had been a real friend, in spite of Church, they would still be alive.


Well, I guess that answers in part, where did they all go? People who hop from truer church to truer church in pursuit of the TRUE Church build friendships based on being a member of that particular church or set of beliefs. That is one kind of friendship but they also tend to dissolve quickly when conditions in that church change. That has been my experience in spades.
While the Bible says "a friend loves at all times", that has proven elusive to say the least among the survivors of the WCG debacle.



In reality, I  find that many who say they love you or are you best friend don't tell you it's conditional.

Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com

New Book By Former WCG Minister: "The People of the Sign"

 "What do divorce, alcoholism, kidnapping, radio evangelism, ancient prophecies, 

the collapse of the Soviet Union, church schism and the Stockholm Syndrome 

have in common with the music of the Beatles? 

The People of he Sign effortlessly weaves these together, 

proving once and for all that truth really is far, far stranger than fiction."

There is another book ready to be published about life in the Worldwide Church of God.

This one will be a little different from the previous books that have dealt with people exiting the cult. This book is by a former minister of the WCG, who jumped ship during the changes to UCG, then jumped ship to David Hulme's little group and then over to David Antion's group.

From his posts on Facebook and elsewhere he seems to be very unapologetic about his role as a minister and his stance on sabbath and other COG issues. 

It will be interesting to see how people react to his book.

This is what was on Facebook today:

Hi all - I'm a former full time WCG Minister (1989 - 1995) who was then a "local church elder" successively in UCG, David Hulme's COG aia and David Antion's COG SC. I also supported Leon Sexton's Legacy Institute, including several trips to India - and some memorable baptisms there.

I've written an autobiographical book about my journeys - called The People of the Sign. It's being published on 1.16.2012 (couple of tie-ins there - anyone want to venture a guess?)

 My personal experience withing the WCG was overwhelmingly positive, though in my book it is discussed - warts and all, and people from across the experience spectrum will find history to relate to and disagree with.

 It will list on Amazon.com and Barnes & Nobles for $19.95, but is available on pre-order direct from me for $10, which includes shipping.

Let me state, openly, I've worked over 4 years on this book, and I'm not ashamed to say I hope it more than pays for itself. A laborer is worthy of his hire.

Let me also say, one of the reasons for putting up with some of the heckling and attacks that I endured in WCG survivors is that I and the other ministers in WCG and its offshoots do have a lot to answer for. There is pain, hurt, disappointment, suffering, and sin to account for. Those in positions of leadership, such as myself during that time, are held to a higher divine standard than those who looked to us as "ministers".

My goal in participating in open discussions is reconciliation.

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another. Cheers!

 Wade Frannson

People of the Sign

Did You Invite Your Evil Kids To The Feast?

Shame on those COG folk who bring their "evil" kids along to the Feast.  How dare they bring someone along who is different that the rest of the crowd!

God knows that the "Converted" parents raise the most perfect god fearing children the church has ever seen.  They radiate Biblical knowledge and can name all the laws that HWA commanded. 

I just cannot get over all of the the holier -than-thou crap that permeates Armstrongism.  It's no wonder that all the COG's are losing their youth.  With these kind of disgusting attitudes being spit out around them what would make a child want to stay and learn?

Armstrongism just gets sicker by the day!

This brings up another point of evil at the Past Feasts.

Some parents welcome their evil kids along to the Feast. This should not be. Usually they only target the naive, the weak. Etc.

I once found one of these young sons of Beliala about to perform some evil deed.  I caught him and was bouncing him up against a tree yelling at him, till he broke free and ran off to never return.

The Parents were good living people, But had their evil (in deeds) son living in their house,  Knowingly turning a blind eye, plus inviting him along to Church. 

GCI says "in spite of.......it worked."

Grace Communion (WCG) is patting it's self on the back on how they operated in the past and for their new "collegial" approach they now use.

I am surprised at how easily the past abuses can be glossed over by this defense, "in spite of the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants aspect of our approach – it worked."

Neil Earle has this to say: Pyramids and Webs

Fruit Bearing Activities

Even in our old days as Radio Church of God and then Worldwide Church of God (1968-2009) we knew we had to be active in God’s service, to bear fruit. This led us to do some things no-one else had quite done in the same way. In fact, we got a reputation for chaos and indecision both inside and outside our church that was due in large measure to our pioneering efforts – that we were pushing the envelope in many diverse areas.

In the 1960 we were among the first big mailing operations to get into computers. We set it up so well that IBM sometimes used us as a paradigm for some of their customers. Really.

In the 1970s we published seven foreign language editions of the same magazine full color every month on five continents. Even Reader’s Digest could not do that. This won us many articles of praise in publishing and trade journals.

In the 1980s, faced with sky-high responses to our media work, we invented such things as a Wide Area Telephone System or WATS Line. This device, staffed by attendants and even when not, handled thousands of telephone calls for lit on a twenty-four hour basis. Yep, there we were. Pioneering. Innovating. Learning and relearning and making inevitable mistakes on the way.

In the 1990s in a converted gun shop on a sloping hill in Pasadena the Arbitron people (TV survey experts) handed us the title as the most listened to religious TV program in North America. And we used only a half-hour of power not the full hour of our closest emulator.

We were off-base in many of our teachings and approaches, of course, but the call to fruit-bearing effectiveness was there. Even some of our staunchest critics conceded that. We had the old pyramid style of operating which (to oversimplify) was a simple pyramid with HQ at the top telling everyone below in the organization what to do. This worked, however. Yes, it led to lots of abuses and our hard-working employees were not given the kind of pensions and retirement security most normal workers received but – in spite of the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants aspect of our approach – it worked.

The Modified Pyramid

Today we operate under a “new pyramid,” to coin a phrase. And if you envisage the top of the pyramid remaining as HQ you could put the Pastor in the left corner and the Congregation in the other corner. Today we have a “modified Episcopal” structure or more collegial approach in place. This means there is a church hierarchy of course but the pastor and local congregations have much more input into the running of the local churches. Power flows up and down along both sides of this softer gentle pyramid. The way we appoint new pastors illustrates that. In the past, HQ said we’re sending you Pastor Soandso and that was pretty much it.

Today, if a pastor wants to retire our Church Administration Department (CAD) lists an opening in Sasquatch, Saskatchewan and licensed GCI pastors may apply for that post. Then the new applicant visits the area, speaks and interacts with the congregation and the church members get to vote Yea or Nay. Wow.

This is a striking departure from the past but seems to echo Acts 6 and the choosing of the first deacons much more closely than our previous approach. The casting of lots for Matthias in Acts 2 was also much more “democratic-seeming” than hierarchical.

And so it goes.

False Prophets: Harold Camping and Rod Meredith

Prophet Thiel has a tirade today against Harold Camping who has once again predicted the end of the world this coming Friday, October 21st.  Thiel at least recognizes that Camping is incorrect and a liar.

According to Harold Camping and other supporters of his Family Radio, Jesus will return on and the world will end on October 21, 2011.  Here is what he wrote in his We are Almost There! book:

Significantly, the number 17 links perfectly to the fact of the rapture because spiritually, the number 17 signifies heaven. Moreover, the number 2 (second month) spiritually identifies with those who have been commissioned to bring the Gospel. Is it not amazing that they will be raptured on the 17th day of the second month? Is that coincidental? We also have learned that the last day of the earth’s existence, October 21, 2011, is the 23rd day of the seventh month of the Biblical calendar. The number 23 normally signifies God’s wrath being poured out. The number 7 (seventh month) signifies the perfect fulfillment of God’s purposes. Could this also be coincidental, that the final completion of God’s punishment on the unsaved occurs in the seventh month on a day that features the number 23, which is a number that completely identifies with God’s wrath, thus signifying God’s perfect wrath on the unsaved?  (p. 61-62).

So, based on his proclamations, the world has only a couple of days to exist. Of course, that is not possible, so in a couple of days, his remaining followers will again see that his prediction was wrong (like they did about his predictions for 1994, and the one for May, 21, 2011)

It is interesting that Thiel can see that Camping is a false prophet but cannot see that Meredith is also a false prophet.  Meredith has had just as many false prophecies over the years and MORE!

But Thiel dances by the false prophecies this way.  He claims Camping is making private interpretations of of prophecy, while LCG's and Meredith's version is "literal."  Camping takes his interpretations as literal also.  I do not understand why Meredith's private interpretation are any different than Camping's private interpretations.

We in the Living Church of God believe:

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:19-20, KJV)

Now, Peter is warning that unlike improper human reasoning, prophetic scriptures were not private interpretations. October, 21, 2011 and many of the numbers that have been associated with it are not biblical prophecies, but improper private interpretations of scripture.

While we in believe that we have “a more sure word of prophecy”, it is because we believe that many prophetic scriptures are literal and should often be understood that way. Sadly, those into their own private interpretations, and misunderstand the Bible and the Holy Days, have another view.

Thiel then goes on to say this:

Because he prefers his own imaginations to the truth of the Bible, Harold Camping seems to load one misleading calculation onto other misleading information to get to the wrong answer. He should not be listened to by those that actually believe the Bible. The heavenly signs in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have not happened, and they must happen first according to Jesus before He can return.

If this is true then Thiel must stop listening and following Rod Meredith, because Meredith over the decades has used his own imagination to interpret scripture in accordance with his belief on the way things should be.  So far has has struck out every single time he opens his mouth.  Once a liar, always a liar.

Yet, Thiel can call Camping a false prophet and not Meredith:

It remains my view that when Jesus does not come on May 21, 2011, hopefully the warnings to his followers will finally sink in. And some may remember that Jesus said,

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. (Matthew 24:11)

Meredith is a proven and documented false prophet, along with Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Waterhouse, Dean Blackwell and Herman Hoeh.  They have all lied through their teeth for decades.

But there is a grand scheme going on by Satan here.  With Camping and others continually being proven to be false prophets this will have an impact upon the Living Church of God whenever they decide to make an end time prophecy in the future.  Because of all the failed prophets in the past, when people hear LCG/Meredith utter prophecies the world will laugh at LCG and Meredith.  They will be mocked and scoffed at.

Despite false predictions, Jesus will return. And we are to look forward to His return as the Apostle Peter wrote. Jesus will return no earlier than 2018 (and likely later) as certain biblically-required steps have not yet happened (Daniel 9:27; cf. Matthew 24:15,21,29-30).

When God’s true servants proclaim the truth about prophetic events, people are likely to point to false predictions (supposedly, but not really, from the Bible) and scoff, though God still wants people to repent (2 Peter 3:3-9). This scoffing is one of the dangers of the October 21, 2011 date that will soon be proven false.

If Thiel and LCG don't want to be mocked and scoffed at then stop telling prophetic lies as if they were the truth!  Shut down your cult headquarters and stop lying!

Dennis On: The Lurkers Church of God--The Fall (Out) of Our Discontent

The Lurkers Church of God--The Fall (Out) of Our Discontent

110 different countries have visited this site (Since September 15) 

Total unique visitors: 7,127

New Unique Visitors

Yesterday: 166

30 day average: 202

Record: 336 on October 8, 2011

Flag Counter Views

Yesterday: 370

30 day average: 482

 Record: 838 on October 8, 2011

There is evidently no comparison between the number of good folk who take the time to comment or invest in the thought processes necessary to comment on the various postings with regards to the WCG experience and all the abiding fall out, and those that quietly lurk.

As far as I can tell, there may be a total of 20 or so regular responders to any or all of the topics presented here, which despite the discomfort level some provoke, are here to help those sincerely wanting to break the ties and live in a bigger box than the one provided by the splinters and slivers in the COG remnants.  As you can see, many hundred more just "lurk."

I understand lurking.  We want to believe something is true and yet we have a niggly feeling in our souls that all might not be as presented. We dismiss the feeling and yet sometimes we just have to keep up with the other points of view that sometimes seem more right.  Perhaps they must make us think. 

I understand very well how "loyalty" can keep you from being more honest or speaking up in one's church.  I also understand sitting in an audience that I am supposed to have everything in common with, listening to everything from announcements to sermonettes and sermons and quietly telling myself, "this is such bullshit, but maybe next week will be something that inspires me."   I've listened to the big plans of the bigger church for preaching their gospel and thought, "that won't work," or "Jeez, if Jesus is about to return soon, what's with building a college with a spiffy multimillions dollar price, coming out of my pocket not theirs?  Is that not holding two opposing views in one sentence?"

How many times were you assured that when people see our new headquarters, they will come to the truth because they will see how God himself plants trees and flowers, plays sports, dresses and honors the guru!  I bet not one person ever came into any church because of the quality of the cover.  Unfortunately they do come because of the seeming truth of the contents, if they don't ever do any further homework on the matter.

So why do people "Lurk"?  These are just my opinions, but judging from the numbers, I would bet every COG minister, Prophet, Priest, Apostle and Witness stops in from time to time.  It's just too hard not to.  I imagine a good number of FOT goers are reading this right now :)

IMHO COGers lurk because:

They are not quite sure they are getting the whole story at Church

They have the same doubts and fears about trusting just one guy to tell them how it all is.

As a teen in the "Church my parents go to,"  I 'd like to know if there is something I am needing to consider before i give my life resources to such ideas.

As a minister, I ignored the problems I saw in the Armstrong's, the Tkaches and whoever to my harm and I won't ignore this guy and the unease he sometimes causes me.

I am a true believer and hate this blog and sometimes just can't help but let them know how wrong they are.

I find it difficult to let go of the experience without at least learning what went wrong and why I allowed myself to live in such a small theological world.  (This is ME)

I'm mad as hell and I'm not takin' it any more!

I find comfort in knowing others think as I do as I reflect on this whole experience

I want to know what's being said but I don't want to know what's being said, but i do want to know what's being said, but I will act like I don't know what's being said because what's being said is disturbing to my status quo.

I used to be able to say whatever I wanted as a minister or member and never got called out on it but NOW I have to see what's being said about me.

I didn't know there were so many interesting other ways to see the Bible, its origins or politics and I like this place.

I don't feel so cut off from my experience even though I have lost all church friends and feel depressed when don't stay in touch

I'd like to say something or comment, but it might get back to my church.

If I do say something its not going to be anonymous, but if I do otherwise, it might get back to my church.

Lurking is my hobby

Lurking is safer than speaking up

I'm afraid of my minister, friends, Jesus, God or even Satan finding out I lurk.

I don't know why I lurk. It's a bad habit but I just can't stop doing it.

Lurking rocks!  I lurk at church, work and at Wal-mart, so why not here?

I love lurking to see what the jerks, fools, buttheads and reprobates are saying now!

I feel more true and holy lurking with those that will be fuel for the Lake of Fire

Well I think we get the point.  On top of that we might ask why do most who speak up do so without letting others know who they really are?  See above I guess.  Some like to snipe but never want it known where the shot came from.  Others have to have the last word I'm sure.  It's all very interesting.

I think lurking is also a sign of the struggle most have with being authentically themselves, no matter the belief or experience, and belonging to an organization where they all have to speak the same thing, which of course, has never truly happened nor is possible in reality in the history of church.  It's an illusion and of course no one ever would believe that members 'all THINK the same thing."  Sooner or later one is confronted with "I'm sitting down on the outside Mr. Minister, but I am standing up on the inside."

So, for all who lurk...

Authenticity is the alignment of head, mouth, heart, and feet - thinking, saying, feeling, and doing the same thing - consistently. This builds trust, and followers love leaders they can trust.

Lance Secretan

That inner voice has both gentleness and clarity. So to get to authenticity, you really keep going down to the bone, to the honesty, and the inevitability of something.

Meredith Monk

The accusation that we've lost our soul resonates with a very modern concern about authenticity.

Patricia Hewitt

We need to find the courage to say NO to the things and people that are not serving us if we want to rediscover ourselves and live our lives with authenticity.

Barbara de Angelis

I've always told people who are at crossroads or have to make a choice or decision about something of consequence to ask, "How does this serve me?"  I realize in the WCG/COG experience, and perhaps even as one reads the Bible, "Me" never counts and we are all to love other's better than ourselves.  I always wondered if that is true...what are the others who are loved supposed to do!

It always pays to ask "How does this serve me?"   If the answer is helpful to your growth and understanding then good on ya!   If it helps move you along the path a little further or give you the courage to be yourself and finding that just fine and ok, then good on ya!   I suppose even if it makes you feel superior to the fools who comment on this blog,  good on you for now I suppose. 

The Karma Fairy also has a habit of lurking...  :)

Can I get an "Amen"?

Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com