Wednesday, December 11, 2019

Genetics and the Case against British-Israelism


(Behar, D. 2010)


Genetics and the Case against British-Israelism


…Enjoin certain persons not to teach different doctrines,
Nor to devote themselves to myths and interminable genealogies
Which produce curious inquiries rather than God’s stewardship in faith.

                     1 Timothy 1:3-4, Translation by David Bentley Hart

The belief that the people of Britain and the United States are descended from the Biblical patriarch Jacob (Israel) is a fundamental tenet of Armstrongism. This arcane knowledge has been characterized by Herbert W. Armstrong as the key that unlocks Biblical prophecy. The case based on genetics against this idea, however, is strong. That case will be presented in this essay.

At the outset, I must state that my background is not in genetics or any of the biological sciences. I have a technical background in a quantitative field. There is no information written by professional geneticists on the British as descendants of Israel. It is likely that no geneticist has encountered and explored this unconventional idea. So the literature research is mine and I have endeavored to convey the underlying data with fidelity. 

Identity of the Jews the Cohen Modal Haplotype


It is surprising to me that I must include this subtopic in this essay. HWA never doubted that he was dealing with authentic Jews when he visited Israel. But now there are Armstrongists that call Jewish identity into question. Some Armstrongists wish to defend British-Israelism by identifying a European people as the true Jews in order to posit a Jewish genetic profile that is compatible with the British. In so doing, they have gravitated toward other interest groups that wish to see Jewish identity altered. The groups include principally: 1) Atheists who wish to deny that the Jews ever really existed at all and 2) White nationalist and supremacist groups who want to recast Christ as Western European racially. 

At the center of Jewish genetics is the Cohen Model Haplotype (CMH). CMH is a high frequency genetic configuration that is associated with those Jews who by tradition are descended from Aaron the brother of Moses. These Cohens are the priestly class within the Jewish community. This configuration is a special version of haplogroup J1 and is regarded as the predominant, original Israelite haplogroup. How this was determined can be found on the internet in an article by Ellen Levy-Coffman entitled “A Mosaic of People: The Jewish Story and a Reassessment of the DNA Evidence” (https://jogg.info/pages/11/coffman.pdf). The information is contained in the section of the article entitled “The DNA Evidence for Israelite Ancestry: The Jewish Priests and Cohanim DNA Study.”


I will not go over the detail of this text here because of the length of such a presentation but I will respond to a statement made by a critic of this research. The person stated in a blog post directed to me that I should be apprised that the idea that Jews are haplogroup J originated from a mere claim made by some guy that the researcher encountered. The full story on which this criticism is based is related in the section of the article by Levy-Coffman cited above. But the “guy” was not just anyone and his words were not just frivolous hearsay. He was a Sephardic Cohen who was conducting services in a synagogue. This Cohen had behind him the full weight of the history of the Sephardic Jews, their culture, their traditions and their continuous occupancy in Palestine prior to the Diaspora. As Paul stated in Romans, “…unto them were committed the oracles of God.”
In brief, here are a number of reasons why the people we call Jews are actually Jews:
1. According to Dr. Spencer Wells, a popular Harvard educated geneticist, the Ashekanzi and the Adnani Arabs both claim descent from Abraham. Both groups share haplogroup J which tell us that Abraham and his antecedents were haplogroup J. The claim of the Ashkenazi and the Adnani is consistent with the Biblical record.
2. J1 is shared by the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim with the same frequency. This means that this genetic signal was present in the Pre-Diaspora Jewish population in ancient Israel and is a founder haplogroup. It was not a later acquisition. Levy-Coffman states of haplogroup J1: “Its presence among contemporary Sephardic and Ashkenazi populations indicates the preservation of Israelite Semitic ancestry.” Note: There are other founder haplogroups: J2, E and G.

3. J1 anchors the Jews in the Middle East because J1 is restricted almost completely to Middle Eastern populations such as the Bedouins and Palestinians – geographically near to the ancient Jewish homeland. Haplogroups G and E are much more widespread and may have resulted from incursive populations.

4. Autosomal Principal Component Analysis (PCA) charts (see the graphic accompanying this essay) indicate that the Mizrahi Jews (Jews living in Iraq (Babylon) and Iran (Persia) who never entered the Diaspora), cluster in the middle of other haplogroup J peoples of the Middle East. The Ashkenazi cluster is between the Mizrahi and Europeans as one would expect because of their admixture with Europeans. 
Haplogroups are just one piece of genetic data. Autosomal studies augment haplogroup studies and take into consideration the entire genome. Autosomal studies are used by genetic testing services to indicate what percentage of various ethnic groups one might be. PCA is a mathematical means of representing similarities in autosomal data graphically.
5. John 1:11 states of Jesus: “He came to those things that were his own, and they who were his own did not accept him.” Jesus did not come to a group of Celts living in the Britain. He came to a group of people who have lived continuously in Palestine and elsewhere in the Middle East prior to the time of Christ until modern times.

The Incompatibility of Israel and the British

The founder haplogroups for the Jews are: J1, J2, G and E (Levy-Coffman). The principal haplogroup for the Western Europeans, including most of the British, is R1b. There are other haplogroups found in the British Isles such as R1a, I, E, A and traces of others. It is important to note that Britain does not have its own haplogroup. Besides Britain, R1b is largely represented in Ireland, Western Germany, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, among the Basques and scattered elsewhere in Europe. These people are referred to by geneticists as Atlantics because they live on the European continent nearest the Atlantic Ocean. Atlantics have their own extensive history and archaeology (see Dr. David Reich, “Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past”). Their most common genetic configuration is called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). I am haplogroup R1b-M269 and have the AMH. This is very common in Western Europe.

If Israel were haplogroup R like the British, he could not have fathered the Jews. If Israel were haplogroup J like the Jews, he could not have fathered the British. It is not possible for a man to produce more than one haplogroup. This is a simple and inviolable rule. Actually, for this thought experiment to work, we do not need to know that the Jews are haplogroup J1, J2, E and G and the British are haplogroup R1b. We need only know that the Jews and the British differ in haplogroup. The evidence as presently known is that all of the descendants of Israel are haplogroup J and are unrelated to the British. Likewise, this principle may be applied to all of the purported modern day “Tribes of Israel” living in Western Europe. For example, the Swedes, who are supposed to be the tribe of Naphtali, the brother of Judah, are haplogroup R1a and I. The Swedes do not have the genetic profile to be descended from Israel.

This can be seen by once again examining the autosomal PCA graphic that accompanies this essay. The French may be used as a surrogate for the British. Both are predominately R1b. Note that they do not cluster with the Jews at all. They cluster with other Europeans. The Ashkenazim and Sephardim cluster midway between the Europeans and the Mizrahi Jews of Iraq and Iran. This is because both the Ashkenazim and Sephardim have some admixture with Europeans.

A last point is that haplogroups exist in a hierarchy and are assigned letters of the alphabet. Though it is only a rough measure, the distance in number of letters is indicative of biological difference. Haplogroup A is much closer biologically to haplogroup C than it is to haplogroup Q. Haplogroup R is very distant from haplogroup J. The British people are about as distant from the Jewish people as Native Americans are. The effect of this is that the British people could not have mutated from J to R1b within the last few thousand years. Mutation is not a mechanism that works that quickly. 


Haplogroup R1b Among the Jews
Jews are not purely haplogroup J1 as we have seen. A substantial fraction of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have the R1b haplogroup. Dutch Jews are about 25% R1b. Is this not an argument for Jews possibly being related to the British? Perhaps, the R1b Jews are the real Jews and the haplogroup J Jews are imposters.

This question can be resolved by comparing the Ashkenazi and Sephardim to the Mizrahi. The two former groups both entered the Diaspora and resettled in Western and Eastern Europe. The Mizrahi Jews of Iraq are in communities that date from the first Babylonian Exile circa 586 BC and have been continuously present in the Middle East into modern times. We know there are R1b Jews among both the Ashkenazi and Sephardim. But the Mizrahi have almost no R1b (https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Europe.html and Behar, “The Genome-wide Structure of the Jewish People", Supplementary Table 4). If the two groups that entered Europe have R1b and the group that did not enter Europe has no significant amount of R1b, then R1b was acquired in Gentile Europe. Doron Behar acknowledges that these haplogroups (R1b, R1a, I) were probably “indicative of European admixture” (Levy-Coffman).

Additional support for this data is to be found in the autosomal PCA graphic accompanying this essay. The Mizrahi Jews of Iraq and Iran cluster in the middle of other Middle Eastern Groups and are remote from the European haplogroup R clusters.


The Future of British-Israelism among Armstrongists

The future of British-Israelism is not bright. An area that has yet to be extensively explored is the archaeogenetics of ancient Israel. This would involve extracting and analyzing DNA from ancient bones whose in situ provenance can provide not only raw population genetics data but a fuller social and cultural context. I anticipate that based on what we know of current Jewish data we can anticipate that we will see no haplogroup R in ancient Israel and the presence of E and G may be explained. Archaeogenetics will simply strengthen the case against British-Israelism in the future.

The question that arises is “What is so bad about being Gentile?” Paul speaks of how the Gentiles have been grafted into Israel and have become “spiritual Jews” and the middle wall of partition between the Jews and Gentiles has been broken down. Yet for some Armstrongists there must be a racial component to their ethnocentric sense of self-esteem. For others, perhaps, the idea that the United States is just another Gentile empire, among the many other Gentile empires in the history of the world, and will have its moment in the sun and fade out is just unacceptable.

Nobody in the scientific community is likely to look at the validity of British-Israelism directly. It is a fringe idea that would not be worth research dollars in academia. But as more genetic data is accumulated, the scrutiny brought to bear on British-Israelism will be increased. When this happens, people who find British-Israelism to be critical to their sense of self-worth will defend this idea. Very likely this will take the form of declaring that the real Jews are imposters and that Abraham and his family were all haplogroup R1b. In so doing, they, or perhaps the entire Armstrongist movement, will in viewpoint move towards the White Supremacist groups that now populate the American landscape in growing numbers.

However British-Israelism may be politicized or weaponized in the future, it will remain a mythology, a fairy tale, a fantasy, a footnote. The genetics demonstrates this.


submitted by Neo

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173 comments:

Stoned Stephen Society said...

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. It is something I am currently studying to understand better. I'm reading David Reich's book, " Who We Are and How We Got Here." Any other references that deal directly in explaining haplogroups would be greatly appreciated.

Anonymous said...

I don't worry about this. God proved it to Mr. Armstrong so I don't need to worry if it is true or not. It was revealed from God so I do not need to question it.

Anonymous said...

The Autosomal PCA graphic at the top of the article is from the work of Doron Behar and is available on the web.

Anonymous said...

given the fact that God does not lie, and that jacob fathered 12 sons (and at least one daughter) by four different women, it is not logical that his descendants do not exist, nor is it possible that the Word of God (specifically His Promise) should return to Him void...

c f ben yochanan

please stop censoring me

RSK said...

Well, this thread will be mildly entertaining to watch.

Tonto said...

Everyone bleeds red. Thats enough for me!

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

NEO,
Great post! and you are absolutely correct - the genetic evidence disproves Anglo-Israelism, period. And, as I noted in my post "God's Promises to Abraham," the theological reasoning behind the Armstrong version of this is very flawed: "Herbert Armstrong and his followers reasoned that it isn't plausible that the Bible would ignore/not mention nations as important as the United States and Britain in terms of the prophecies which apply to our times. They assert that God never fulfilled the promises he made to Abraham through the ancient nations of Judah and Israel and reason that God had to fulfill those promises by some other means. They reasoned that the U.S. and Britain must have acquired the wealth and power which they have experienced because God was fulfilling those promises which he made to Abraham so long ago. They implied that - because these nations worship the God of Israel, have accepted their scriptures and professed their belief in a Jewish messiah - they must be Israelites themselves. They have asserted that God's promise to David required someone from his lineage to occupy his throne down through the ages of human history and have reasoned that it must currently exist somewhere else since the Bible itself records the fall of David's dynasty.
Unfortunately for Armstrong and his followers, their reasoning and assertions in this regard can be easily demonstrated to be faulty/erroneous. As a consequence, their conclusions about the "true" identity of the Anglo-Saxon peoples are not sustainable. It is much more implausible to believe that folks who lived many hundreds of years before the U.S. and Britain existed (and were only familiar with the "world" that encompassed the Mediterranean region which they inhabited) would make any mention of those nations in their writings. And, even if we assume that the existence of Judah, Israel and the Solomonic empire did not constitute a fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham, it does not automatically follow that the U.S. and Britain are of necessity the fulfillment of those promises. Using that line of reasoning, couldn't we make a case for the Romans, Spaniards, French, Germans, Russians, Mongols, Chinese or Japanese being candidates for the fulfillment of those promises? Once again, not only have the Brits and Americans adopted the Hebrew Bible, the entire Western World has embraced the Hebrew God and his scriptures (indeed, much of the Eastern World has done the same thing)! Finally, as for the promises God made to Abraham and David, what about all of the clear scriptural references to the fact that they will find their ultimate fulfillment in the person of Jesus Christ?"
Thanks again for this post!

Anonymous said...

You know what else you shouldn’t question? You are or have been in a cult. But Mr. Armstrong said it was the one true church so you don’t have to worry about it.

Anonymous said...

"Until recently it was believed that R1b originated in Western Europe due to its strong presence in the region today. The theory was that R1b represented the Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnon) that had sought refuge in the Franco-Cantabrian region at the peak of the last Ice Age, then recolonised Central and Northern Europe once the ice sheet receded. The phylogeny of R1b proved that this scenario was not possible, because older R1b clades were consistently found in Central Asia and the Middle East, and the youngest in Western and Northern Europe."


From this site

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-conquest

Under this heading


How did R1b come to replace most of the older lineages in Western Europe?

Anonymous said...

"Importantly, the initial genetic analyses suggested in this first publication incorrectly attributed this Ashkenazi Levite lineage’s origin to Eastern Europe18. A follow up study, summarizing information from whole Y chromosome sequencing, focused specifically on this Ashkenazi Levite lineage and confirmed that that 65% of the 97 randomly assembled Ashkenazi Levites carried haplogroup R1a-M19820. Strikingly, the better resolved whole Y chromosome based phylogeny of haplogroup R1a, showed that 100% of these samples could be reassigned to the refined haplogroup R1a-M582. This distinctive R1a-M582 lineage was found, other than in Ashkenazi Jews, among 15.7% males self-affiliating as non-Ashkenazi Levites and, importantly, at low frequencies only in the Middle East, consistent with this location as its ancestral origin20."


From this site~

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14761-7

Anonymous said...

"Origin and expansion of the Ashkenazi Levite Y chromosome clade. The suggested gradual movement and expansion pattern of the Ashkenazi Levite haplogroup R1a-Y2619 are denoted by ascending numerical labels."

From~


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14761-7/figures/1

Anonymous said...

"Comprehensive Y-DNA testing is now helping to better define the origins, migration and approximate time when members of this haplogroup became Jewish. Jewish R-M124 men have distinctive DNA markers that set them apart from other Jews and from other members of the R-M124 haplogroup. R-M124 men could have stood at Mt. Sinai as part of our ancient Jewish ancestry, or may have joined the Jewish people at a later time. History may provide some clues."


The last sentence says it all, they have no idea which haplogroup is the original.


Above quoted paragraph from ~

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewish-r-m124/about/background


There's absolutely no way to prove whether Jacob was haplogroup J or R.

nck said...

Thanks for the research on the Jews. I'm looking forward to the research on the other 11 "lost tribes".

Central tenet of BI was:
A) A part of Dan moving to Ireland way before the Assyria strike.
B) A distinct and lasting davidic kingly line to be turned and overturned throughout history
C) tribes like "dan", "Issachar", "Ruben" etc etc moving north east, with "Jews and Benjamin etc" being later additions.

The political ramifications of a Jewish claim as "cousins" of the 19th century British elites and 20th century Americans are very clear and may have served the political goal of making this despised people tolerable by mainstream.

Both the USA and Britain sought to limit Jewish influence and immigrationuntil respectively d'Israeli and the rise of Wall Street.

Prior to WW2 Jewish refugees to the USA were shipped back to Hamburg. And only after 1880 Jews were marrying into British and Austrian upper class.

So Armstrongism with its acceptance of "Jews as cousins" went against anti Semitic mainstream Anglo Saxon philosophy and is an expression of both western zionism and integration. It is definite "racist non racism."

So do in BI theory, for the nation's to be blessed through Jacob a 100 percent of Americans be "lost tribe", or is it just stated that "they" would move there as part of the ruling elites in order to bless the rest of the world with the blessings ov justice and economics of free trade (unseen hand)?

Anyway this last statement implicated a serious philosophical underpinning or support for the US empire and world order as it ascended by design after ww2, with its "cousins" under the wings of Nato and its "Brothers" under the wings of "five eyes" controlling all world information as the US postmaster general (controller of information) and ambassador to France, Ben Franklin could not have fathomed at the time the US was struggling to survive in a quagmire war versus the powers of the time.

Nck

Anonymous said...

How long will it be till a COG member does something like this? I can see Pack, Flurry or Thiel causing their followers to do something like this.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/jersey-city-shootout-developing-details-3-2/2239660/

Anonymous said...

This is great! Craig White is probably spitting bricks right now. He has placed BI on a pedestal as his god instead of following Christ. The law and BI is his god.

Anonymous said...

9:02pm Why do you think a cog member would be inclined to do a similar act?

Anonymous said...

Well done NEO.

Anonymous said...

This articles 'proves' nothing. It's a near law that people expert in a field can easily deceive and mislead outsiders with no or a limited knowledge of that field. Which is why readers here were deceived by Herbs lies, as were others in different denominations and religions. This phenomenon is rampant in the investment industry, where financial advisers rob blind their clients with bum advice. I even experienced this in the scientific technical realm when I was a student.
So when I come across another 'expert' trying to convince me of this or that with their 'facts,' it's all yawn, yawn, here we go again.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Ashkenazi Levites:

Many Ashkenazi Levites are halogroup R1a1. This is a common haplogroup in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. It is not common in Britain.

Levy-Coffman: "...this haplogroup was found only in Ashkenazi Levites; it was not shared with the Sephardic Levite population in the same fashion as the CMH. Given the fact that the Ashkenazi Levites did not share R1a with their Sephardic counterparts, it appeared that this haplogroup had entered the Jewish population sometime during the Diaspora."

How R1a1 entered the Jewish population from the Gentile realm is an object of continuing research. Some say it came by way of the Khazars. Others deny this.

See Levy-Coffman's article and the section entitled "The Levites: The DNA of the Jewish Khazarian Priests."

Also see an article Doron Behar, et al, entitled "No Evidence from Genome-wide Data of a Khazar Origin of Ashkenazi Jews." (https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints)

The haplogroup R argument to connect the Jews with the British just does not work. I did not cover he Ashkenazi Levites in my article because the article had already become long.

Anonymous said...

I think I see why someone ahead of their times felt the need to cut off future debate and get the Gentiles into pure Jewish ancestry with:

Romans 8:
"28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit..."

Nuts to endless genealogies! It also calmed the squeamish fears of Gentile adult males. lol

Anonymous said...

NEO all of this merely proves the one point that I made in the previous thread, DNA neither proves nor disproves BI. There just isn't enough information yet, it's all guesswork. You're free to conclude that one set of assumptions are more accurate than the other if you choose, but it's still all based upon assumption and guesswork!

Anonymous said...

There were those who joined the nation of Israel. One example is Esther 8:17b … Then many of the people of the land became Jews, because fear of the Jews fell upon them.

The Y-chromosome is paternal, passed only from father to son. Regarding the Cohen Modal Haplotype (Y-chromosomal Aaron), the Aaronic priesthood is passed from father to son. A priest's daughter cannot pass the priesthood to her son, nor is she eligible to be priest. The same is true for the Davidic lineage in verse 17, it is passed only from father to son. A daughter of the king of Judah could not inherit the throne. Her son would not be eligible to be king as was the case with Jehosheba in 2 Kings 11. Jehosheba was spared by Athaliah because of this.

Jer 33:17-18 … “For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ”

The covenant with David and Aaron, always having a son, cannot be broken! There is always a son of David who is eligible to be king. The same is true for a son of Aaron who is eligible to be priest. This covenant is not saying that the Temple would always be around. Jeremiah was still alive when it was destroyed. Read the prophecy in Hosea 3:4-5, For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD/YHVH their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD/YHVH and His goodness in the latter days.

Jer 33:19-21 … And the word of the LORD/YHVH came to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says the LORD/YHVH: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.'"

nck said...

Look. BI is "true" if er accept "concerned sisters" research that God is not concerned with racial "purity".

God said "descendants" or "seed".
Now if it is true that an extreme percentage of men descend from djenghis khan and charlemaign, I can imagine an "Abraham" figure in there too.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Tkach dumped the Anglo-Israel heresy just in time!!!

Who will be next? I'm betting it will be the LCG

RSK said...

Knew you wouldn't be able to resist.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (7:58)


I am not sure what kind of logical analysis you are using. That is not the conclusion that most rational minds would be led to.

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

hubris is all these monday morning geneticists pretending to understand the science of genetics as if they have gained such knowledge and authority by osmosis...

i venture to say none of you pundents actually know if there is any validity to what you purport to be infallible science...

c f ben yochanan

Anonymous said...

the principle behind that Scripture is that its all about the Holy Spirit, the geneology of the Godly; it is not about the geneology of the flesh...

c f ben yochanan

nck said...

8:20 Is neither British nor a civil servant since his statement would then by law be treason and punishable by death. (Although Lizzy and the Corgys would be nice but Vicky's servants not so much.

Nck

nck said...

BB

What do you mean "no newbies are buying into it." Trump is president is he not and, looking at the British vote, Trump will win a, second term by a landslide victory.

NON of the old white folk buy in the newbie lefty worldview.

NOTE: non of this posting reflects my opinion, it is an analysis of culture and its worldview as shaped by the past and its sense of the direction it needs to go.

The more godless and left leaning (breached from traditional values) the democrats will be the larger the conservative win.

Note: Again just observances of crowd behavior in the booth as the ultimate expression of their opinions.

And yes non of them might have heard of BI. Its just the psychological reality that no person freely or easily submits privilege once gained.

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT. BI IS PSYCHOLOGY NOT DNA SCIENCE.

Nck

Anonymous said...

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16

spiritual lineage...

c f ben yochanan

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nck said...

BB

The world will get no where UNLESS people TELL people what to do. BI did this for a while. It is called ideology. The US empire is special to those who lead it (for over 60 years) and they are not willing to compromise as you are and the Chinese are noticing. (although the Chinese will re take their natural place in the natural order of things as leading world economy as they have been for thousands of years and only suspended for a meager 250 years when BI ruled.

The old white folk may have written about lefty world views while AT THE SAME TIME DEPLETE THE WORLDS resources and EXPLOIT ALL.

This is vastly different from what the current millenials believe.

With "lefty worldview" I meant everything that hwa and the fundamentalists labeled "darwinism" since the 1930's. And the reactionary reaction to this view is very clear as the powers that be are not prepared to give up empire yet, with the British as the saddest example today,, voting themselves into a virtual co dependent of the USA or extra State (from a Chinese viewpoint)

Is this my opinion. No it is just a warning that unless the Democrats do not IMMEDIATELY tone down their extreme marxist candidates, Trump will only be the first of many after a landslide 2nd term win.

nck

Anonymous said...

Bob,

nck said :"WHEN WILL YOU GET IT. BI IS PSYCHOLOGY NOT DNA SCIENCE."


What I think nck is trying to say is that bi is a mindset.

Anonymous said...

NEO it appears that you don't understand the words or phrases likely, or it appears, or seemingly since those are used in all the "evidence" that you have presented thus far. Yet you even have BB believing that you've presented "well-founded evidence", too funny.

nck said...

Thank you PT. I expected you to understand regarding our common interest in the workings of Engineers of Consent E.Bernays father of PR as contemporary of HWA, master of marketing/advertising before we knew such disciplines existed. Ideology/Mindset/Culture.
nck

Anonymous said...

For the record the cog and the anti-cog aren't the only ones arguing about Abraham's haplogroup. Check this page and the comments~

https://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/haplogroup-j-and-the-jewish-cohen-modal-haplotype-ishaq-al-sulaimani/comment-page-3/#comments


I personally don't give a damn if Abraham was haplogroup J, E, R or Z, that hasn't been my point from the beginning. My point was, again, DNA neither proves nor disproves BI!

Anonymous said...

There was a Jewish prophecy that six million would die. That's where that number came from.

Anonymous said...

The stone of scone used to say "Jacob's Pillar Stone" beside it. I didn't know the British were all White Supremacists. At least by the standards of this article, anyone who is confused about DNA must be a supremacist of some kind.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous (7:32)

You have to understand the context. If a geneticist says that R1b "probably" came to the Ashekanzim from Europe, he may not be doubting the source but the means of transmission. There is no doubt that R1b is European and Gentile and no doubt it is found among the Ashkenazi. But you will not find a document in an archive somewhere that details how this was absorbed into the Jewish community.

Because the geneticist said "probably" it doesn't mean that "all bets are off" and "and everything is hopelessly confused" you can go ahead and believe any bizarre thing you want to about the Jews and the British.

You don't need to fear the statements of scientists. You need to fear the statements of men like HWA who never use "probably" or "likely" or "may."

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Many of the people who defend Armstrongism and HWA's theories have little tells which become obvious as they make their points. These tells betray their own inexperience, lack of education, and other deficiencies in their backgrounds. As an example, how many posters can actually recognize university quality dissertations and differentiate between the individuals who create them, and those who rely on cutting and pasting simplistic or biased sites to support HWA's opinions and "win" the argument at hand? Who would you think deeply understands the topic of discussion? The one who succinctly outlines point by factual point, and the logical conclusion, or the cutter and paster?

I don't believe anyone is being fooled here, but there will always be some who pretend that they don't know. Why is that?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous ((9:07)

From the page you cited: "The story the bible is about a black race a chosen people."

You need to quit reading garbage. Just because you can find an exception, no matter how wild, does not alter the genetic findings of reputable scientists. Nobody should have to tell you that.

And, BTW, your point is wrong.

nck said...

You should rent/stream 1975 "The man who would be King". (adaptation Rudyard Kipling)

At one point the local chieftain witnesses Michael Caine shooting a bird from the sky. He asks stupified, "Are you Gods"?

To which Michael replies, ..... "No, .... We are British....... But that's the best next thing"......

Oh yes good old Kipling.. he had this way with words.

Nck

Byker Bob said...
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nck said...

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-was-jesus-biological-father/


There is so much more between "science" and "vivid imagination"

Nck

Anonymous said...

Amazing. I have stated several times that I don't give a rats ass whether BI is true or not, that my only point is that DNA neither proves nor disproves BI, yet you anti-cog folk keep trying to push your narrative. When I "copy and pasted" that black Israelite site it wasn't to "prove" anything. The reason was exactly what I stated, to show that the cog and the anti-cog aren't the only ones arguing the identity of Israel. You all aren't happy unless you're presenting false narratives.

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Mt 1:12 cf Jer 22:24, 30; 1 Chr 3:17; 2 Ki 24:17

Lk 3:31 cf 2 Sam 7:12-16; 1 Chr 22:9-10

Davidic line: David -> Solomon -> ... -> Jehoiakim -> Jehoiachin (2 Ki 24:6, aka Jeconiah) -> Zedekiah (2 Ki 24:17)

Anonymous said...

BB, why does it bother you so much that there might be a small possibility that BI is correct? HWA was not the originator of BI so why don't you admit that science hasn't "proven" Abraham's haplogroup. Your insistence that BI has been disproven has rendered you senseless, kind of reminds one of the radical left and right. As has your hatred of anything Armstrong. Why don't you cut loose the anti-cog mindset and get on with life yourself? 45 years out and you're still hung up. Interesting!

nck said...

BB
It is vastly more complex and may even be tied to the successful attempt to replace traditional 19th century wasp protestantism by a paradigm to disconnect Jesus from Christianity.

Since 1945 non of the Christmas songs that we now deem "traditional" mention Christ anymore but "white" Christmasses, "sleigh rides", coca cola Santa this and Santa that, "mistletoe" as society transformed to a more inclusive kind shaped by the writers of the American songbook, who happened to be Jews.

HWA's BI claimed them to be cousins too.

Nck

Anonymous said...

For those who insist that DNA has 100% refuted BI please explain the R haplogroup among many/most populations of the Near East.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East

Kurdish Jews are almost 25% R and only 38% J

Ashkenazi Jews in one study was almost 25% R and only 38% J

Sephardic Jews were almost 34% R and only 28% J

While~

Jordan - Dead Sea Arabs were 40% R and only 9% J

Most of the other Arabs were between 5 and 10% R and 5 to 65% J

Iranians were between 20 and 25% R and 15 to 35% J

Iraqis are 16% R and 58% J

Muslim Kurds are 28% R and 40% J

Lebanese are 10 to 15% R and 45 to 52% J

Palestinians have no R and only 10% J


Yet you all know for a fact that Abraham was J and not R. Amazing!

I guess those Europeans really got around the Near East for that much R to be mixed in there. LOL






Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Anonymous (1:09)

You stated: "HWA was not the originator of BI so why don't you admit that science hasn't "proven" Abraham's haplogroup."

The above statement is an if-then statement of logic that does not make sense. The sufficient and necessary conditions do not connect with each other. Consequently, I am not sure what you are trying to say to Byker Bob. First, nobody in the scientific community is trying to prove Abraham's haplogroup. Second, any excavated physical evidence of Abraham's haplogroup is likely not to be found. We don't know where Abraham is buried. This does not mean there is no scientific evidence of his haplogroup. Scientists may deduce his haplogroup from circumstantial evidence. In the same way that we know that HWA had a trace of Neanderthal.

It would be interesting to see your answers to the following three questions:

1) What would constitute "proof" to you of Abraham's haplogroup?
2) What do you think Abraham's haplogoup is? Apparently, you believe that neither the British or the Jews can be traced to Abraham, at least based on genetics.
3) Do you believe the people that are generally recognized as Jews now resident in the Middle East are really Jews?

Anonymous said...

Oh brother, you two just don't get it do you? You both just admitted that it's impossible to know Abraham's haplogroup yet you want to continue arguing with me when my sole position is that it's impossible to know for sure which haplogroup is the true Israelite, from Jacob/Israel, haplogroup. My entire premise has been to prove your statement "DNA refutes BI" false. I've done that and you continue to want to argue, and put labels on me. Here, I'll answer your questions NEO~

1. Abraham's actual DNA which we'll never have, which makes my entire premise true. It's impossible to know Abraham's and therefore Israel's haplogroup. Your insistence that it's J is based upon nothing but conjecture.

2. I have no idea what Abraham's haplogroup is and I don't care, I only care about proving ignorant statements false. Statements like DNA refutes BI!

3. Yes I believe they are Jews with varying Y DNA haplogroups and we don't know which one of the haplogroups are a direct line from Abraham. It could be R, it could be J, it could be E. It doesn't matter!

You two are the ones arguing that it matters in some way, trying to make claims that I have never made. I never said Abraham was R, I said he could have been R just as easily as J, we don't know. That merely because J is the most prevalent haplotype in the Mid East proves nothing in that regard. I've even shown you where some geneticists are coming to realize that the R haplotype is much older than they thought and originated in western Asia and the Mid East. I presented this not claiming that Abraham was R but just pointing out that we just don't know.

Trying to claim that I'm pushing BI theory to oppress people or that I am a follower of Herbie. I've never said any of that but you two, mostly BB, have been using those kinds of fallacies because you don't like the facts that I present. DNA neither proves nor disproves BI!

You both just admitted it when you said it's impossible to know Abraham's haplotype conclusively. Wow you two are stubborn!

Anonymous said...

Do you actually think that scientists know the different ages of the differing haplogroups? LOL


"""Y-DNA Haplogroup ages

From ISOGG Wiki

The age of Y-DNA haplogroups is still very disputed. Full sequences, Haplotypes, SNP and STR mutation rates on the Y-chromosome, as well as archeological evidence are the main sources calculations are based on."""

From this site~

https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_Haplogroup_ages

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (3:21)

Good point. Here we get to the issue of Christianity versus Secularism. If you believe in the Bible, there are other evidences from the Bible that indicate Abraham's racial affinity. I believe, though I do not know, that Dr. Spencer Wells relied on the religious/cultural/historical milieu to deduce Abraham's genetic affinity. I would have done the same thing. Use the available evidence.

If you are a non-believer, why would you even care about Abraham's haplogroup? Abraham could have been any of the haplogroups contained in the chart you cite from Wikipedia or any other haplogroups that could be found in the world. There is no religious/cultural/historical milieu worth considering. Further, my guess is that most atheists would tell you that Abraham did not exist. At this point, the debate comes to be about something else: the existence of God.

A final observation: there is a population of Jews in the Middle East, Mizrahis, that show signs of high endogamy and who cluster with other high haplogroup J peoples. While this greatly supports the idea that Abraham was haplogroup J, it does not by itself cinch it. It just increases the probability that he was haplogroup J. Abraham could have been a lonely one-off. Only the Biblical record can sort this out for Believers.

Note: In Levy-Coffman's article notice how they deduced the ancient Israelite ancestry. Here again Abraham could have been haplogroup Q or something and all the great procession of haplogroup J people who claimed descent from him through the centuries could be conspiratorial imposters. This is similar to what some of the White Supremacist groups believe.



Anonymous said...

Why don't you just come right out and ask, do I think BI is possible?

I would answer yes, but just as possible is the black's claim that the real Hebrews are E1, and it's also possible that neither are true and the real Hebrews are J. I don't know, I don't care! I only care about disproving the ignorant claim that DNA refutes BI.

One of these days that might be the case, but with what little we know today, circumstantial evidence, even educated deductions aren't proof positive. Why you two want to argue that fact is beyond me. Well, no it's not. You hate Armstrongism. Guess what? So do I!

Byker Bob said...
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nck said...

Luckily the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Assyrians, Hittites, Egyptians didn't go about raping and pillaging the inhabitants of the holy land, before they wandered out to nearly every area of the world.

Wow. And this is only discussing the dissemination of DNA for which proof can be found. Let's discuss the dissemination of ideas next. How every Buddha statue is actually based on Greek models. Islam might have been heavily influenced by ancient rabbinical thought and early Christian philosophy and Japanese shintoïsm habe eerie resembling "Jewish sacrificial" customs.

Or in the 1980's "operation manna" directed the rescue of black people from Ethiopia by Israeli military because they might be Jewish.

It is a serious claim and probably proven. Yet it's like my black brother looking like the next door window cleaner, while momma claims him to be my full brother of our viking father. (joke people)

What is God's rule for calling a person a descendant??

If God is anything like the producers, of "Who do you think you are, USA", after only 2 generations he has about 16 options available.

I love, the one episode where Cindy Crawford finds out about her Charlemagne ancestor.

Nck

Byker Bob said...
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NO2HWA said...

BB wrote: "Why would you assume that a person who exposes or confronts ignorance is angry,..." People who leave the church get accused of this all the time. We are supposed to be angry at something. I get accrued of this frequently. I am the furthest from angry as you can get. Never have been angry. How can we when we have such blithering idiots now running so many of the COG's! Its a regular comedy routine. SNL pales in comparison.

nck said...

BB
Suppose Bob Thiel finds ancient prophecies on rocks pertaining to certain native American Tribes. Would senator Warren be a recipient of those prophecies or would one 1800 ad ancestor not qualify a person to be a recipient under that spell?

I'm going to see if Heinz is in Strongs Concordance.

I didn't know BI required racial purity as those AC Fornicators so easily intermarried Dan into Zebulon, Issachar into Ruben and heaven forbid Ephraim into Mannassah.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Here's an example that proves BB's mayonnaise theory wrong. Suppose, just suppose that Abraham was haplogroup R. I'm not saying that he was I'm just mocking the mayo theory.

If old Abe was R and 10 to 20% of Jews remain R, then only that percentage is still mustard. That doesn't mean the others aren't Jews since there's still mitochondrial DNA to deal with. A woman who might have had an R father but married a J. Their son, though J would be just as much Jewish as an R male Jew who married a woman who's father was J and had a son, being R.

Now, since British are 60 to 70% R, and if old Abe was indeed R, then 60% of British could still be mustard. Again we're not even dealing with the mitochondrial lines.

Again, just a plausible scenario, in no way claiming it to be true since it could work for the J, E, lmnop haplogroups as well.

One day we'll know for sure if and when Christ returns. Until then you alls constant bickering over the fallacy that DNA refutes BI is just as bad as those claiming that DNA proves BI.

As the owl said when trying to determine how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop. The world may never know, at least in this life!

Anonymous said...

In the last analysis, this seems to me to be the convincing model that draws on historical, cultural and scientific data:

1. Among the Jews, there are Cohens who have passed down, generation by generation, from father to son, the knowledge that their lineage is the priestly, Kohanic Lineage. This is like a living, breathing genealogy.

2. There has been some intermarriage. Foreign haplogroups have migrated into the global Jewish community. Behar (2003), nevertheless found the following prevailing percentages of haplogroup J among the Cohens (chart, Wikipedia, "Y-chromosomal Aaron"):

Ashkenazi Cohens 88%
Sephardic Cohens 76%

3. We can follow the traditional Biblical genealogy from Aaron back to Jacob. This makes Jacob and his other immediate descendants haplogroup J and precludes the assertions of British-Israelism.

4. There are Biblical statements that support this view.

To me, this is highly persuasive. It is an Occam's Razor approach. It is not a 100% solution but it is a 99.999% solution. I can make up other ideas and theories but they are all more complex and less persuasive. And this is far more convincing than some pseudo-history written up by J.H. Allen.

We will never have access to Abraham's teeth in order to collect a DNA sample. Nor does a reasonable mind need this if one is willing to accept historical, cultural and scientific data. The view that we can deduce nothing about Abraham's genetics because we cannot determine his haplogroup directly, while this can be appreciated for its purity, is a pragmatic cul-de-sac and is simply not true.

Anonymous said...

NEO the problem is that there were many priests in old t. times. Priests of Baal, priests of Jereboam and yes the priests of Levi or Aaron. So how do we really know that the Cohens of today are of Aaron and not of Baal or Jeroboam?

Anonymous said...

A "reasonable mind" who wants so much for BI to be false?

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

To 8:39~ Once you know certain facts it's no longer possible to believe in Anglo-Israelism. BI is totally based on speculation, and not hard cold facts.

The reason why it is such a key issue is that so many have cited their realization that BI was untrue as the first crack in the wall of Armstrongism. Following that, all of the dominos gradually fell, and they were able to free themselves from the cult.

Anonymous said...

BB apparently you haven't looked at the varying haplogroups among Jews. J haplogroup is only about 45% of all Jews, using your argument 55% of Jews must not be Jews of antiquity. Bullshit, there's more to it than the Y chromosome. As I said, Abraham could have been R, J, E or LMNOP, we just don't know.

Your mind is made up. That's fine. Mine is open even to the remotest possibility and not because Armstrong taught it. Again, he wasn't the father of the theory, but as we know the pervert very well could have been the father of his own grandson.

Anonymous said...

Anon Dec 15 @8:37am

You forgot the sons of David who are identified in 2 Sam 8:18 as 'kohanim' (NKJV translated as 'chief ministers'). The biblical cohen is not necessarily the 'religious priest' (whether YHVH's temple priest or pagan). It's more of someone who holds an office or a minister. Yes, I know it's confusing as the Temple priests (kohanim) were also mashiachs (anointed). A king (mashiach/anointed) is also a cohen but not a Temple priest (e.g. Melchizedek, Tanakh does not mention there was a Temple of God).

What is my point? I believe the majority of the Jews who have oral tradition that they are kohanim know which kohanim is in question, and are the sons of Aaron or Temple priests. Perhaps the other group in the Y-chromosomal Aaron has an ancestor who was a daughter, instead of a son, of an Aaronic priest yet maintains in the family that they are of priestly line. Also, I don't know if the Second Temple priests were all Aaronic priests. The Sadducees which are now extinct controlled the Temple (Few people question the truth of the Pharisee of Pharisees asking the Sadducee High Priest for authorization to arrest early Christians in Damascus. It's like Tlaib asking Trump for authorization to arrest conservatives in Canada).

RSK said...

I never did quite follow how you could have "ten" lost tribes when Simeon's territory was further south than Judah's, Benjamin was part of the kingdom of Judah and of course there were various Levites about. Seemed like a miscount to me. :)

Byker Bob said...
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Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Let's see who is more mayonnaise Jews or the British.

From this site~

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East


Kurdish Jews are roughly~
12% E1b1
19% G
6% I
37% J
1% L
4% R1a
20% R1b

Ashkenazi Jews are roughly~
.3% E
16% E1b1
10% G
3% I
15% J1
21% J2
1% L
.2% N
4% R1a
11% R1b
3% T


England

From this site~

https://eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps

14% I1
2.5% I2a1
4.5% I2a2
4.5% R1a
67% R1b
1.5% G
3.5% J2
2% E1b
.5% T
.5% Q


So the Jews, who supposedly didn't intermarry only have a highest purity of 37% of the J haplogroup. Yet we're supposed to believe that the British are more mayonnaise with a highest purity of 67% R1b. Hmmmmmmm.

Anonymous said...

Another very interesting web page~

http://www.rdjcatalog.com/MerrickREFpage.htm

Anonymous said...

Let's see, in this thread I've been called brainwashed, hardened, deluded, stuck, indulging in wolf in sheep's clothing syndrome, ignorant, all by BB.

Very interesting!

Byker Bob said...
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Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Don't go crazy over haplogroups. I may have inadvertently promoted this lopsided view. They are just a part of the picture and can at times be misleading. Someone who is haplogroup R1b can be 99% Black. It happens in the USA all the time. Would we argue that the American Blacks are among the true British because their population reflects some R1b? Or would we conclude intermarriage events?

This is why haplogroups need to be augmented with autosomal studies. A Jew who is haplogroup R1b may cluster right next to a Jew who is haplogroup J1 with CMH in autosomal studies, both clustering in the middle of other haplogroup J1 people. The fact that a few people in the Mizrahi community in the Middle East tested R1b does not mean that they are British unless autosomal studies yield that conclusion. It means that an intermarriage event happened in their histories. Hence that is why you see clusters on the graphic that accompany this article. These people possess an essential genetic similarity even though they may represent a collection of different haplogroups.

Also, recognize that these haplogroup studies are of modern populations. The Middle East has been a crossroads for centuries. In modern times, British, American and Russian soldiers have been stationed in Middle Eastern countries, just as the racially diverse Roman Army was stationed in Britain. Some English people are haplogroup A which comes out of Sub-Saharan Africa. Nobody knows how this happened but the Roman legions are suspected.

Look at Wikipedia and notice the distribution of haplogroup R and J. The Middle East is where haplogroup J people are concentrated speaking Semitic Languages. Europe is where haplogroup R people are concentrated speaking Indo-European tongues. Is there a clue in this? At least for some of us?




(continued)

Anonymous said...

(continuation)

If we want to use the hypothesis that if the Jews have some haplogroup R1b they have a racial origin associated with the British, not via intermarriage but as a founder population, a need for research and clarification on that exceptional topic is created.

An example of this type of hypothesis is to be found among the Ashkenazi Jews. They possess haplogroup Q which is the Native American haplogroup. Almost all Native Americans are haplogroup Q. Levy-Coffman brings this up in her article in the section dealing with haplogroup Q. We can then postulate that Native Americans are then Jews and the real Jews among the Ashkenazi are haplogroup Q sub-population. This is the same line of reasoning used by some regarding haplogroup R. This would mean that the Mormons are right. Native Americans really are New World Israelites. Maybe the Armstrogists and the Mormons can fight this one out. Neither has an advantage.

What I am writing here does not prove that the picture is so hopelessly muddied and we can never figure out anything about this. There are sources in history, culture, archaeology and autosomal genetics. There is the Bible for those who accept it. The balance of evidence is in favor of Jews being haplogroup J like other Middle Eastern people. You will not find many reputable geneticists that will claim otherwise. If a diversity of haplogroups is a litmus test proving total lack of genetic integrity, then the British people, like the Jews, do not exist as a distinct people and BI is just a fable. In fact we may assert that there are no real races at all.

As for the atheists, you have bigger fish to fry. Mucking about with haplogroups isn't going to disprove the existence of God.



Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Nearing 90 comments and all that we've accomplished is proving that DNA does not prove nor refute BI. Wish I'd have started with that premise! 😙

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (11:37)

We did not prove that "DNA does not prove nor refute BI."

We demonstrated that some people will never accept persuasive data if their minds are already made up.

Anonymous said...

Persuasive data does not equal proof!


Thirty years ago HWA persuaded you that Britain was Ephraim. 😂

Anonymous said...

COGWA doesn’t preach BI any more

Anonymous said...

We proved that one anonymous poster misapplying dna can never prove BI, or shed credible doubt on the dna disproofs of it. Jeez, I don't know, maybe in his own circle, the guy is considered to be brilliant.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (3:24)

If I steadfastly refused to believe the moon is not made out of green cheese because there was no proof I was willing to accept, would that make me erudite or would it just mean that I was a horse's hiney?

Anonymous said...

3.25 PM
If that's the case, COGWA should close shop and go home.

Anonymous said...

Abraham was Hebrew. Therefore, there were other people--descended from Arpachshad--during his lifetime who were Hebrews too. Just like Shem was the father of many who have the right to be known as Shemites or Semites. Therefore, it's possible, even probable, that today there are peoples who are Hebrews even though they aren't Israelites just as there are Semites who aren't Israelites. The problem today is that these terms are used exclusively for Talmudic Jews (e.g. anti-Semite) when there are, imo, plenty of other Hebrews and Semites in existence that aren't descended of Israel. It makes me wonder what bearing, if any, this might have on our interpretation and understanding of genetics.

Anonymous said...

3:25 Really?

https://members.cogwa.org/education/type/booklets/the-united-states-britain-the-commonwealth-in-prophecy/

Anonymous said...

3:25 I think you need to update your information.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hvk_b-Eq5U8

nck said...

Thanks for the you tube link.

I stopped listening to that guy the moment he claimed we were not in any way racial superior.
That does not confirm what I am learning from this blog. So I decide to shut that information out and continue my to wander in confirmative bias.

nck

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

That's the problem NEO, you haven't proven a damn thing. You're relying on what you claim to be persuasive information.

Such as the predominance of the J haplogroup within the Cohen community. The problem is that merely because these family's have passed down the claim that they are of Aaron's lineage, that doesn't make it so. If you choose that data to be persuasive that's fine. I require more reliable proof. Elizabeth Warren found out the hard way that family tradition means nothing.

Just because people from the Mid East group together closer than others does not prove that Abraham's line is the prevalent DNA, there could have been a different male in their past.

If you're willing to accept such flimsy proof that's fine, but why mock others who don't see that as persuasive?

Do you know what would be persuasive for me? If in the future one of those supposed Cohens offer up the Temple purifying red heifer~

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/113476/temple-institute-certifies-red-heifer/

Without being struck down by God for not being a true priest from Aaron's line.

Again, I'm not saying that BI has been proven. I've acknowledged that it only has a remote chance of being true. But the data that we have so far does not prove what you think it proves! And the claim that DNA refutes BI is a damnable lie fostered by those who hate everything Armstrong.

Anonymous said...

Yeah NCK that's how history gets rewritten, people claiming things that never happened. Like WCG teaching that the white race is superior to all others. A damn lie!

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Anon 9:21am,

Was Elizabeth Warren taught the language/dialect, customs and traditions of the Native American tribe her family thought they were from? Was her family able to trace 5 or more generations a Native American ancestor verified by another family?

I doubt anyone would be struck down by God with the scenario you brought up regarding the red heifer. There's no 3rd Temple yet. The altar has not yet been consecrated. I think it's time you read Ezekiel rather than another ACOG booklet.

Just an fyi for Paulinians:
Eze 44:9 Thus says the Lord GOD: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel."

Anonymous said...

As a Christian my citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20) so all this endless back and forth about Anglo-Americans being ethnic Israelites or not is moot (Galatians 3:26-29; Colossians 3:11). It reminds me of Princess Alice informing Lord Mountbatten whose misguided devotion to country was motive for his support of an attempted coup, which ultimately failed in toppling UK PM Wilson:

Oh Who cares? Honestly. One of the few joys of being as old as we both are is that it's not our problem. It's not really our country, either...We Battenbergs have no country. Our family might have kings and queens in its ranks, but we're mongrels, too. Part-German, part-Greek, part-nowhere at all.
The Crown (S03E05)

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...


The Armstrongist here, no one can accuse me of trying to withold information.

Foundation of Sand

Anonymous said...

"Correlation does not imply causation." Neither does it refute it!

Nice way to play upon people's emotions. So far everything in the article presents Armstrong and the theory in a negative light, and who wants to be that involved in something perceived negatively?

Just on page four though...

Anonymous said...

The difference between proof and persuasive data.

Being a Sabbath keeper all my life I'd be the first to admit that it's impossible to prove that Christians are to keep the Sabbath and Feasts solely from the bible. There is absolutely no verse in the New Testament commanding such. But, I believe that there's enough persuasive "data", and by using the mind that God has given us coupled with common sense that the abundance of evidence says that they are to keep them.

Anonymous said...

"so all this endless back and forth about Anglo-Americans being ethnic Israelites or not is moot"

Which is exactly what I stated way back in my December 13, 2019 at 9:07 AM post!

Anonymous said...

4:50 you do realize that the majority of those supposed Cohens with the J haplogroup aren't practicing Jews don't you?

My point about the red heifer was that if there ever is a third temple, if one of those Cohens claiming a priestly line is able to perform the duties without being struck down that one of two things might be proven. Either he's a legit son of Aaron or the bible is a bunch of hooey in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Let's try this again ~

Foundation of Sand







Anonymous said...

If that doesn't work here's the link~


silenced.co/_sections/library/foundation_of_sand.pdf




Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how certain groups of people always attack the intelligence of those with differing views than themselves?

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

Anon 6:14am

Do you know the exact count? Do all of these non-practicing kohanim no longer speak Hebrew? Were they not taught at least the priestly blessing (even Spock knew this)? Are they aware of the difference between a kohanim and a regular Jew when leading a prayer? Are their brothers and father non-practicing as well? How about their paternal grandfather?

Red heifer is NOT found in Ezekiel. You can find the detailed description of the Third Temple starting from Ezekiel 40 (the valley of dry bones is in Ezekiel 37). The altar is consecrated in Ezekiel 43:18.

Did you check the verse I gave in my previous comment (Ezekiel 44:9) where God says only those circumcised in the heart AND flesh will be allowed inside the Temple? Starting from the very next verse, it tells us what would be the function of the Levites who strayed from God. Read some more and we are told ONLY the sons of Zadok/faithful priests will be allowed to come near the table.

1. Eze 37:15-23 the two sticks representing the house of Judah and Israel joined together. The children of Israel are gathered from AMONG the nations.
2. Eze 37:24-25 David, speaking of the end-time Messiah, shall be king. He will be their PRINCE. Remember who is the Prince as succeeding chapters will further address the Messiah as Prince.
3. Eze 37:26-27 the Third Temple will be in the midst of the children of Israel FOREVER!
4. Eze 37:28 "The nations also will know that I, YHVH, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”. Only when the Third Temple is standing that the world will know that the true God sanctifies Israel!
5. Eze 44:1-3 No man shall enter the east gate. The Prince/Messiah is allowed to eat bread before YHVH.
6. Eze 45:6-8 The property of the Prince/Messiah.
7. Eze 45:16-17 The Prince/Messiah will prepare the sin, grain, burnt and peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.
8. Eze 45:22 The Prince/Messiah will prepare for himself and for the people a bull for sin offering.
9. Eze 46:16-17 THE PRINCE/MESSIAH GIVING INHERITANCE TO HIS SONS!!!

The Third Temple is the time of the messianic age and the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-37). The New Covenant is the time when God's Law/Torah (better translated 'instructions' rather than 'law') will be written in our hearts, AND knowledge of God will be universal. A time when there is no need to preach about God for everyone would know the true God.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:01am

I'm sorry if you're offended by my comment when I said "I think it's time you read Ezekiel rather than another ACOG booklet."

The red heifer is not in Ezekiel where the Third Temple is described in detail.

I should have worded my comment differently ...

Anonymous said...

Could someone please point out where I've questioned science just once? It's not science that I question it's the interpretation of science that I question. We've already concluded that science doesn't give a crap about proving or disproving BI, science has not identified Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's haplogroup. Nor is that the goal of science. All science has done is proven a close relationship between Jews and Arabs. I don't question that one bit. Nor do I question whether those of the J haplogroup are real Jews, I believe they are, but with a male ancestor later in their line than Jacob.

Science has proven that J haplogroup Jews are closely related to J haplogroup Arabs through a male ancestor somewhere in the past. They have no clue who that fella was, nor will they ever be able to determine that. It could have been Jacob and it might not have been. To claim that this is proof against BI is just wishful thinking. In no way supported by science.

You're better off just sticking to your other "proofs" against BI because DNA has received a failing grade in BI proof whether you're willing to admit it or not!

Anonymous said...

AMOS 9:9

“For surely I will command,
And will sift the house of Israel among all nations,
As grain is sifted in a sieve;
Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground."

Anonymous said...

"It's the interpretation of science I question." Have you ever considered the possibility that you just don't know how to interpret it?

Anonymous said...

9:31 the 7:01 comment had absolutely nothing to do with you.

I think you're confusing the Temple that Jews want to build with the Millennial Temple.

Anonymous said...

9:19 by the way, you're the one who brought up the third Temple, and if the Jews do indeed build another Temple the Millennial Temple would be the fourth would it not? Surely you know that the Jews are wanting, and working towards building, another Temple. You're the one assuming that the Millennial Temple is the one that I was talking about.

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/64632/third-temple-closer-than-ever-search-begins-eligible-jewish-priests-jewish-world/

Anonymous said...

9:31 also, I haven't been a member of an acog for 28 years and I do not need a lesson in the Millennial Temple, especially since that's not the Temple that I was talking about. I haven't read an acog booklet in that 28 years either. Though I have continued keeping the Sabbath and Feasts, the lesser matters of the law/instructions.

Anonymous said...

3:07 who the hell pulled your chain?

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
"It's the interpretation of science I question." Have you ever considered the possibility that you just don't know how to interpret it?

December 18, 2019 at 3:07 PM"


It's NEO's and BB's interpretation of science that I question. They're the ones arguing that science has proven that the J haplogroup stems from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Which is not true.

Byker Bob said...
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nck said...

I hope my Business Intelligence manager doesn't notice I have this weird gaze the past weeks she addresses me.

Nck

Byker Bob said...
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Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

According to this site Moabites are today's Jordanians.


https://www.reference.com/world-view/moabites-today-e745f1d9eeba6fa7



And according to this site~


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East


Dead Sea Jordanian Arabs are 40% R1b and
Jordanian Arabs are 18% R1b, so I wouldn't rule that out. Though honestly I have no clue. Your problem is that you think you have a clue.

Why do you insist on continuing the debate? It's been proven that there's enough R1b in the Middle East that it is possible that Abraham was R1b. Again, I don't know for sure, and I don't care, and it doesn't matter.

It only matters if one has an agenda, either proving or disproving BI. I'm not doing either, all I'm doing is showing that DNA neither proves nor disproves BI.

Man I'm getting tired of writing that all the time.

nck said...

Oh please BB,

I am joking about the BI manager and you are referring me to Magnum BI's club!

nck

Anonymous said...

From this site~

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml


"The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East."


Notice on the map that there is R1b in Ur, but according to this site many scholars think Abraham came from north of Ur where R1b is more prevalent~


"The city’s other biblical link is to the patriarch Abraham who left Ur to settle in the land of Canaan. This claim has also been contested by scholars who believe that Abraham’s home was further north in Mesopotamia in a place called Ura, near the city of Harran, and that the writers of the biblical narrative in the Book of Genesis confused the two."


Believe what you want but don't deceive yourself by thinking that science is on your side!


Tail between my legs indeed.

nck said...

6:39

You are as irritating as I am demanding the 1980 tuscon court proceedings in print before I believe any hearsay and fake news. People don't get us annoying lawyer types.

Nck

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

English is an Indo-European language. The white people of Britain are predominantly Indo-European, which is not so coincidentally haplogroup R. The Jews and Israelites are Semitic people. Their language is completely different, no derivation, no similarities. The written languages are not even read in the same direction. The evolution of languages can be traced much the same as heredity.

nck said...

English is not a language!

English is a mongrel between Latin (French, Saxon, Old Norse, Street etc etc etc)

Of course the above is a joke to direct attention to Pictish and Celtic languages.

nck

Anonymous said...

You don't think it possible for the northern tribes to maintain more genetic purity than their mideast brothers? It's not possible that the J haplogroup became dominant simply because they stayed in the area that J was prevalent? You're assuming the more frequent haplogroup among Jews is of Jacob, how do you know that?

Anonymous said...

nck, I'm just as irritating as those who claim that DNA disproves BI when that was never the purpose of the Genome project. It's all a matter of how these Armstrong haters interpret the data. One would have to know Jacob's haplotype before that to be true, and "persuasive data" just won't cut it for those of us not blinded by hate. But of course their best argument is "You're too ignorant to understand the science ".

Anonymous said...

An explanation of who the Dead Sea Jordanians were from footnote on wiki article above ~

https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg200565

Anonymous said...


R-M173 the most prevalent haplotype among geographically isolated Dead Sea Jodanians~


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1


R-M173 is also the ancestor of European R1b1 as shown on the phylogenetic tree in the above site.


How do you know that these Dead Sea folk aren't the true Moabites, Ammonites or whateverites, brothers to Israelites? How do you know that it's not the J haplogroup that creeped into the gene pool rather than R? You don't!

Anonymous said...

BB I think that you're the one who doesn't understand genetics. If Abraham was originally R the "Brits." could have maintained a purer genetic line than Jews who intermingled among the J's of the area. While the "geographically isolated" (as stated in the Jordanian study) sons of Ishmael also remained more genetically pure. Again, who knows, I don't, but you think that you do.

Anonymous said...

Also, I'm done. Your mind is made up. No amount of logic will convince you that science just doesn't know who the true Israelites are, nor will they ever.

nck said...

3:26

I like your contribution. Even BB MUST like it. Since his CANNOT be a scientific argument IF it is not opposed by another scientific opinion.

I am bound to true science so I can only follow you two as far as logic and "reasonable assumptions" go.

The only science available today shows Irish stone age farmer ladies and Danube farmers came from the what we would now refer to as anatolia, fertile crescent. It doesn't match armstrongite timing but hey armstrong set me on journey that took me to farther ends than Indiana Jones so I am as emotionally unattached as you are regarding my position.

Moreover I have stated my position before that if half a billion people believe a certain fruit is of "red" color than in time it will be so (renamed). So if the establishment of the USA believes they have a manifest destiny to make the world safe for democracy than "Jacob's/Abraham's blessing" has become the truth.

nck

Anonymous said...

"The only science available today shows Irish stone age farmer ladies... "

Seeing that we're not discussing mtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) I guess we'll have to wait for that discussion.

Anonymous said...

I find this statement interesting, from the web site that 3:39am posted.

"Residents of the Jordan Valley number about 110,000 people who live 390 meters below sea level and therefore under mild chronic hyperoxia. There has been little immigration from other areas in Jordan to the Jordan Valley and so its people might keep the genetic features of the original inhabitants of this region."

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm, 141 comments, what's the record?

nck said...

Ok 6:45 we leave out the irish lassies /tea tephis :-)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ancient-irish-had-middle-eastern-ancestry-study-reveals-1.2478780

nck

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

I want to point out one more thing that just occurred to me. I'm sure the argument will be made that for the J (If J isn't the original Jewish haplogroup of course) haplogroup to enter the Jewish community that gentile J males would have to convert to Judaism and why would they agree to be circumcised just to marry a Jewish lady?

Fair argument, but the same ones arguing this want us to believe that R1 entered the Jewish community because of the conversion of the Khazars. Wouldn't the same argument apply?

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

BB I point you towards 7:25am's comment. What part of "original inhabitants" do you not understand?

Anonymous said...

No one has been talking about a race change from Semitic to Japhetic. Plus, if Abe was indeed R do you not think he had any brothers or male cousins of the same? I think there's enough evidence presented that we just don't know if J was Jacobs haplotype or if it crept into the gene pool later. If you think that I'm trying to prove that Abe was R you're sorely mistaken. All I'm doing is showing that the statement that DNA refutes BI is pure bullshit. No one knows, nor can it be known!

Anonymous said...

"There has been little immigration from other areas in Jordan to the Jordan Valley and so its people might keep the genetic features of the original inhabitants of this region."

Anonymous said...

"Unfortunately, according to his own reference materials, they are anomalous in the context of the greater population of Jordan."


That was the point, since there was little immigration from Jordan, that area was closer to the original genetic makeup than the rest of Jordan.

As 7:25 pointed out~

"Residents of the Jordan Valley number about 110,000 people who live 390 meters below sea level and therefore under mild chronic hyperoxia. There has been little immigration from other areas in Jordan to the Jordan Valley and so its people might keep the genetic features of the original inhabitants of this region."


Do you know how prevalent the J haplogroup is in northern Africa? Do you actually think they all stem from Jacob? lol

Cameroon is irrelevant!

Anonymous said...

Funny, BB knows who the inoculators and the inoculatees were but those writing the article don't. Remember those pesky original inhabitants?

"There has been little immigration from other areas in Jordan to the Jordan Valley and so its people might keep the genetic features of the original inhabitants of this region."

The sons of Lot perhaps?

Anonymous said...


R-M173 is the most common haplotype in northern and western Europe. Hmmmmm. I guess those Cameroons spilled their seed all over the Dead Sea Jordanian valley and then went to Europe.


http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/LancasterM173.html

Byker Bob said...
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nck said...

Look I am completely off in my timing. I do know that the Egyptian, Byzantine and US empires at their outer rims had Jews and (groups attributed to be church of goddians) as their defense garrisons. Re Gibbons rise and fall regarding cog groups.

I visited the jewish garrison barracks for the defense of the Egyptian empire at Asuan (southern border) . I guess they, like Moses, fancied a nubian lady at times.

And Camerunian daddy might not have been happy about it and cast the kid out to establish a new tribe. In any case Solomon seemed to have established a line in Ethiopia too. The queen of Sheba might have been a good runner but did not outrun Solomon according to the Selassie clan and all Jamaicans and Bob Marley.... Lion of Judah.

Nck

Anonymous said...

"rather than making such a series of ridiculous and mocking comments."


So says the King of the Mockers as he rides into the night on his Vespa.

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

"Also, the Y chromosome retains a very remarkable record of human ancestry. There are non-recombining regions that remain largely unchanged from generation to generation,"


And therein lies the problem with your position, science doesn't really know which alleles are original from Jacob and which ones have changed. It's all guesswork and assumption as I've been saying all along.

Therefore I stand by my position that DNA neither proves nor disproves BI because there's too much that we don't know.

Anonymous said...

"But, David's dowry for Saul's daughter would have been dwarfed into insignificance to affect the massive change being proposed, if it's even remotely possible."


Really? Now who's the one who doesn't understand science? It would have only taken a few gentile brothers or cousins with the J haplogroup to enter the Jewish community to change the genetic makeup. It's not as if 100% of Jews are J, it's only about 40%.

I won't even get into the prevalence of the R haplogroup among those claiming descent from Levi.

Thanks for mentioning my comment on Khazars vs. J gentile males circumcision. Who knows for sure?

Anonymous said...

Why don't you just admit that I'm correct that we just don't have enough information from DNA to prove or disprove BI? After all you still have all the other arguments from "Foundation of Sand" and I have no desire to challenge any of them, hell I probably agree with a few of them.

Anonymous said...

Checkmated myself? What a laugh!

What? because that article said that the Dead Sea Jordanians are genetically different than the other Jordanians who are genetically closer to the Jews and other Arabs?

That was the exact point that I was making. That the Dead Sea Jordanians could very well be a genetically purer line from Lot. While the other Jordanian's genes have been intermingled with the other gentiles of the Levant.

I have hardly been checkmated, if anything you've been checked!

Are you not a gracious loser?

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

BB, you very well might be correct that I don't understand the subject as well as I need to in order to argue the BI theory. But everything that I've read says that one man only has two haplogroups, one from his father and one from his mother. Nowhere have I seen where a man can have varying percentages of several haplogroups.

Here's what this article says~

"Approximately 35% to 43% of Jewish men are in the paternal line known as haplogroup J[Note 1] and its sub-haplogroups. This haplogroup is particularly present in the Middle East and Southern Europe.[36] 15% to 30% are in haplogroup E1b1b[Note 2], (or E-M35) and its sub-haplogroups which is common in the Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Europe."

From this site~

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews


It does not say that an individual Jewish male is 35 - 40% haplogroup J and 15 - 30% haplogroup E1b1b and so on.


Until I find information that shows that a man has varying percentages of each haplogroup I disagree with you on what those charts are saying. They are talking about the percentages of Jews in each of the several haplogroups, not the varying haplogroup percentages in each individual Jew.

First time that I've heard that one man can have a dozen or more haplogroups but in varying amounts.

I concede my ignorance if that is indeed the case.

Maybe NEO can help out here.

Anonymous said...

As I understand it a male can have varying percentages of sub-groups of a haplogroup but only one haplogroup.

The above listed haplogroups of E, I, G, J and so on are the major haplogroups, sub-groups are delineated as E1b1 or E1b1a as I understand it.

Is it really possible for one man to be 70% J, 15%R, 10% E?

Anonymous said...

If the Y haplogroup is passed down from Father to son how is it possible for a single man to have 12% E1B1, 19% G, 6%I, 37% J, 1% L, 4% R1a, and 20% R1b as BB says? I thought each haplogroup broke from the Y Adam haplogroup at different times and if so it would be impossible to have a little of this one and a little of that one wouldn't it?

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

So far everything that I've read shows that I'm correct in what the percentages represent and BB is incorrect.

Here's one site that shows the percentage of each major haplogroup in each sample.

https://wikimili.com/en/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Meaning if 150 men were sampled from a specific ethnic group and 20% were R1b that would mean that 30 of the men were R1b. And if 30% were J then 45 men would have been J.

As I understand it Geneticists are able to trace lineages back through time using the sub-clades of each major haplogroup.

If one man was R1b1b and another was R1b1a their ancestors in common would all be R1b1, it's the final sub-clade where their lineage would differentiate.

If one man was R1b and another R1a then R1 would be their similar ancestry. I'm sure it's more complex than this though.

Again maybe NEO can clarify my understanding of this.

I'm a damn construction worker not a geneticist as McCoy would say.

Anonymous said...

FWIW this is my haplotype~ R1b1a2a1a2c1k1

The short version being R-L1065

As I understand it if someones haplogroup begins with R1b1a then we are distantly related.

If there are 18% of Jews who are R1b then we are related way back in time as I understand it. Plus those who are R1a are related to me from the R1 SNP on back but once the a SNP "1a" formed our lines diverged.

Again I'm a construction worker not a geneticist but with what little I know that's how I understand it.

Anonymous said...

As I see it either no one is reading this thread any longer or I was right about what the percentages stood for and BB was wrong and no one wants to admit it.

Anonymous said...

8:47 AM Yeah I’m R1b1b2a1a1 which is RM405. So we’re probably distantly related lol.

Anonymous said...

I'm 99.9% sure that I was right about the percentages. If it says 40% J, 30% R1b and 30% E1b1 it doesn't mean that the one man is 40% J, 30% R1b and 30% E1b1. It means that out of a sampled group of 200 men if 40% of them were J then 80 of them were haplogroup J, 30% or 60 of them were R1b and 30% or 60 were E1b1. One man can't have varying percentages of different haplogroups, that's just silly.

And I'm the one who was called ignorant or unable to understand the data at least three times. Typical!

Anonymous said...

I find this very interesting. I guess some people think that being braggadocious, arrogant, and just plain rude that they can convince readers that they're more intelligent than others even when they're the ignorant ones.

At least I accomplished my goal to prove that those who vehemently proclaim that DNA disproves British Israelism are full of bullshit, the truth is that they have no clue what geneticists have proven. Hell, they don't even understand the data that they use.

DNA, as of yet, neither proves nor disproves BI, and anyone who believes it does are just as gullible as those who are striving to push that lying agenda!

One thing that I do know is that this High School educated, West Virginia hillbilly isn't as ignorant as they try to pawn off on the readers.

km

Byker Bob said...
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Anonymous said...

In case you doubt me...

"December 21, 2019 at 3:17 PM
Blogger Byker Bob said...
12:34 What????? The charts are not indicating what percentage of the Jews are Haplogroup J! Those figures refer to the percentage a sampled Jewish person might have of each haplogroup listed. So in the case of the Kurdish Jews which you listed above, a typical or average Kurdish Jew based on random sampling, has 12% E1B1, 19% G, 6%I, 37% J, 1% L, 4% R1a, and 20% R1b as part of his dna. Scientists can even tell from the non-recombining regions which haplogroup entered that person's family at which point in time. Incidental occasional intermarriage is responsible for the lowest of the percentage figures

3:17 The problem with what you are saying here is that the Dead Sea Jordanians, in addition to having similar percentages of R-M173 to the Cameroonians tested, also have an elevated level of the African G6PD-A allele which the other Jordanians do not have! This is how we can know the source of the R-M173 in the DSJ community.

I've been reluctant to come right out and say this, but you really don't understand this topic, or the math that is an integral part of it. That is becoming more and more obvious as you continue to comment. Dna does not involve a huge amount of guesswork. It provides a level of precision which was heretofore unknown to mankind.

Vespa? How original! This afternoon, I was putting a new clutch in my Harley FLHS.

BB"

Anonymous said...

Nope! Nada! Nil! Abraham couldn't have been of the R haplogroup.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32605-R1b-Arab/page5