One of the age-old debates in the Church of God is whether it is ok to eat in a restaurant on Friday nights or Saturday during the day. Legalists, like Pharisee James Malm, go into mental meltdowns over the idea of someone enjoying a relaxing meal with friends after church on a Saturday. Even worse, if you take your kids out to Ihop Saturday morning for some pancakes and family time together. Ghastly days!
This is one thing Herbert Armstrong never spoke out against, thankfully, nor did he ever change his mind. Only those that worship the law down through the years have been those that have made this an issue.
COGWA had this up on their site:
Page 17 of 18
EATING IN A RESTAURANT ON THE SABBATH
Three points should be made clear:
- It is not sinful to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath.
- It is not wrong to refrain from eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath.
- It is wrong for members to judge others for their decision on whether they choose to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath.
The decision to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath is a matter of how to keep the Sabbath, not whether to keep it. There is no disagreement about the Sabbath being holy.
Herbert Armstrong’s teaching and practice on this subject can be traced as far back as the late 1940s, and he consistently taught that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath was permissible. This subject has been examined by conscientious and capable ministers many times throughout the modern history of the Church, and the conclusion has always been the same.
The Church of God, a Worldwide Association, teaches that it is not a sin to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath. If members choose to go to a restaurant for food and fellowship on the Sabbath, they are not doing something that Christ would judge as being evil, but that which is acceptable and appropriate.
97 comments:
God will not be mocked! Those that eat out on the Sabbath mock God and will pay dearly for doing so. May God have mercy on you for such blasphemy!
can you provide us with a link to the COGWA site?
Why single out COGWA many of them all do the same.
Because that was the page I was looking at! Sheesh!
https://members.cogwa.org/uploads/COGWA-Eating_in_a_Restaurant_on_the_Sabbath-Study_Paper.pdf
TRANSLATED FOR HWA:
Three points should be made clear:
1. It is not sinful to go dancing and molest your daughter on the Sabbath.
2. It is not wrong to refrain from going dancing and molesting your daughter on the Sabbath.
3. It is wrong for members to judge HWA for his decision on whether he chose to go dancing and molest his daughter on the Sabbath.
"Herbert Armstrong’s teaching and practice on this subject can be traced as far back as the late 1940s, and he consistently taught that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath was permissible. "
well, I suppose that if you worship Herbert Armstrong, then it's perfectly ok to eat out in a restaurant on the Sabbath....
if you worship the Great Creator, however, you will do as He instructs.
Damn, God's really going to fry my ass. I let my son play little league on the sabbath and I let my daughter cheerlead, play in the band and majorette on the sabbath.
At 56 years old I remain a sabbath and feast keeper, as are my now 36 year old son and 32 year old daughter.
Wonder if Malm or any of the other legalistic, judgemental Pharisees can say the same about their kids?
The sabbath and feasts are great, just quit putting an old covenant flair to them, nor an Armstrong flair. They existed long before Herbvert (Herbert + pervert) and they'll exist long after!
km
Thanks for the link. That paper is written in a true pharisaical manner, going to great pains to justify their wants and practices while ignoring God's clear instructions . So very sad.
5:02am Could you please provide chapter and verse where the Great Creator explicitly says not to eat at restaurants on the sabbath?
Inquiring minds would love to know!
km
5:07am Again, could you please provide "God's clear instructions" about eating in restaurants on the sabbath?
km
Is it okay for Dave Pack to EAT and CONSUME the brethren every Sabbath?
I really would love to know if the kids of those who stubbornly think they know God's clear instructions, are still sabbath and feast keepers as adults.
km
"Tonto said...
Is it okay for Dave Pack to EAT and CONSUME the brethren every Sabbath?
April 25, 2020 at 7:25 AM
No problem, as long as they have fins and scales, or chew the cud and cloven footed. That could be why he bleeds them dry, he doesn't want to consume any blood.
km
That paper is written in a true pharisaical manner, going to great pains to justify their wants and practices while ignoring God's clear instructions
Here is another of God's clear instructions. Please let me know when you and COGWA have stopped ignoring it:
"Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners." (Numbers 15:37-38).
That's not a Temple law. It's not a ritual practice. It's specifically listed as something to do to remember God through ALL of Israel's generations. If you're reasoning around it, it's no wonder you're reasoning around God's clear command not to pay people to work on the Sabbath. Conversely, if you're scrupulously avoiding restaurants on the Sabbath but your garments don't honor God, you are equally sinful as the one who buys restaurant food on the Sabbath.
Christ said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. So He has the right to decide what is, and is not acceptable on the Sabbath. Malm doesn't agree. He is convinced that he alone is the Lord of the Sabbath. And this is true because he says so.
Anonymous at 9:13 wrote:
"Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners." (Numbers 15:37-38).
====Great. Im not a child of Israel, or of the generations of Israel. Im of german descent on both sides of my family. The tassels are like diplomatic flags, that are placed on ambassador's cars, showing that this is their sovereign territory, regardless of where they are on the earth, and with diplomatic immunity.
I do not own any land in modern day Israel, am not genetically related, and I live in New Jersey. Im exempt from this statute.
For sure there are principles in the civil laws of Israel to understand the mind of God. The spiritual lesson here to be applied, is to not forget God's 10 commandments, words, utterances or whatever, but written by the very hand of God, on a permanent vessel made of stone, and place right in the center of the Ark.
Certainly if one is Jewish, perhaps they may want to consider this command. HWAs BI debunked theory aside, this command does not apply to gentiles, or non land holders of Israel. Now the Sabbath and Holy Days are different issues, as certainly, gentile nations will be observing them in the millennium, ala Zechariah 14.
Point 3 is very interesting, "It is wrong for members to judge others for their decision on whether they choose to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath."
Then COGWA shouldn't have an issue with KM letting his kids play baseball on Sabbath. They are seemingly basing this on conscience, but are they really? What has really occurred is that they wrote a paper and came up with it being okay to eat out on saturday, and they do not want others to judge them on it.
I believe KM's kids playing baseball is not mutually exclusive to observing the Sabbath. However if I was into splitting hairs, I believe eating out and having others work more, serve you, and exchange money is more questionable than kids playing baseball.
COGWa disciplines kids that do play sports on friday night or Saturday, so, COGwa's 3 points really break down to: we have decided our actions are okay; don't judge us.
Every time I see this argument, I just LMAO!
You cannot keep the dietary laws from the Torah and even eat in any restaurant with the possible exception of a Kosher restaurant. All other restaurants use a common grill, with occasional spatula scraping of the grease from the meats pushed towards the grease trap. The greases comingle not only with your beef, but also your pancakes. It was abolutely laughable that we had to read the ingredients on all of our groceries and avoid purchasing those which listed "shortening" because that could mean either vegetable shortening or lard, and yet every time you eat at a restaurant, unless you go for vegetarian cuisine (doctrine of demons?), you are getting pigslop on your steak.
Like fast foods? Just watch them slice ham for one guy's sub on the meat cutter, and then watch them slice the beef, turkey, chicken, and cheese for yours.
The problem with being a Pharisee is that it's never enough! If James Malm or any of the ACOGs want to really be observant, they shouldn't only be avoiding restaurants in the sabbath! They should be avoiding them completely! Any other conclusion is as ridiculous as arguing over whether you should get an abortion on the sabbath, or whether it's OK to smoke on the Day of Atonement!
Now, brace yourself for all of the excuses with which people will respond!
BB
Why does the church have to decide every detail of their lives? Does personal preference in these gray areas mean anything to the leaders?
Since the question was asked about God's "clear instructions" - you probably know the word "restaurant" isn't in the Bible.
But the principle here is one of hypocrisy - applying Romans 2:21-24.
If the church teaches that working on the Sabbath is wrong, yet church members expect others to work for them at restaurants on Sabbath, is that not hypocrisy?
But COGWA has a point when it comes to not judging people who do or don't.
"That's not a Temple law. It's not a ritual practice. It's specifically listed as something to do to remember God through ALL of Israel's generations.
Where does it say that the tzi tzi were worn to remember God? I thought they were worn in order to remember the Lord's commandments (mitsvah not dabar lest one thinks he's specifically talking about the Big Ten)? Huge difference. After all most didn't have God's spirit which writes them on a persons heart and mind.
Looks to me like both sides of the argument aren't being detailed enough. Interesting how assumptions and pre-suppositions are taken as facts by so many.
km
Do me a favor, next time you're in a restaurant tell the wait staff that they are working FOR you. They will most certainly disagree. So the idea that you are making them work is idiotic. They are working for themselves so they can provide for themselves and/or their families. How many of you are under that Mt. Sinai covenant anyway? As I've said, the sabbath existed before Sinai, it means to rest or cease from your work. How does going out to eat on the sabbath cause me to work? You all keep quoting Mt. Sinai commands about not making your servants work on the sabbath, but you neglect the fact that the Mt. Sinai covenant no longer exists. It was only until the Seed came.
If you're going to keep the sabbath and feasts quit expecting others to obey Mt. Sinai covenant commands. Keep them yourself if you must, but quit condemning others who don't see it the way you do! Unless of course you go to Jerusalem three times a year. If not kindly shut the hell up!
km
Feastgoer, you do understand that your entire argument here is illogical don't you?
If the church teaches that working on the Sabbath is wrong, yet church members expect others to work for them at restaurants on Sabbath, is that not hypocrisy?
Do you drive to sabbath services? If so you're making police and rescue workers work for you. They have to be on duty in case you're in an accident.
Power plant workers must work if you use electric on the sabbath you know.
Just how pharisaical do you all want to get?
I don't care if someone does or doesn't believe in going out on the sabbath. What I don't agree with is people stating unequivocally that those who disagree with them are going against the Great Creators clear instructions.
Your conclusions aren't necessarily the Great Creators conclusions. I'd be scared of making such accusations!
km
"Now, brace yourself for all of the excuses with which people will respond!
BB
No excuses. I agree with you. If one is going to take commands from the Mt. Sinai covenant and insist that others have to obey them then they had better keep them all.
As I've said before, I keep the sabbath and feasts but not according to Mt. Sinai commands. Do I pick and choose what and how I'm going to obey? Hell yes I do. But I don't insist that others are disobeying God if they don't agree. That's God's prerogative, not mine.
km
A friend of mine went and stayed in Wadsworth for the Spring Holy Days and was shocked that the construction crew building the headquarters of God was working not only on the Sabbath but also on the Holy Days.
This friend also then went in the Fall to Wadsworth for the Feast and observed resident members and employees staying in their own residences and working for the church during the week of Tabernacles.
I told this friend that obviously you just learned a lesson of who has the Authority to abrogate church doctrine for their own convenience with tongue in cheek.
HWA coming to the conclusion in the 1940's that eating in restaurants on the Sabbath was okay was simply a matter of convenience. Ministers having to run the circuit and give two sermons every Sabbath probably embraced wholeheartedly
the convience of stopping at a restaurant between services.
David and his men with the shewbread and Christ in the fields of grain were an instance of convenience as well.
The poor COG member gets one convenience, that is to be able to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath. Conversely how many conveniences do the COG leaders and ministry get?
@ 10:28 AM
"Point 3 is very interesting, "It is wrong for members to judge others for their decision on whether they choose to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath." "
that's to protect those that do eat out on the Sabbath...I've never known anyone that refused to eat out to condemn those that do....it's always been the other way around.
Anonymous jim said...
Point 3 is very interesting, "It is wrong for members to judge others for their decision on whether they choose to eat in a restaurant on the Sabbath."
Then COGWA shouldn't have an issue with KM letting his kids play baseball on Sabbath.
Exactly Jim, which is why I'm not a member of COGWA, or any of the other old covenant acogs.
It's also why you'll find me arguing as much if not more with the cog folk on here as I do with the now protestants. My beliefs fall somewhere in between. Probably closer to the protestants than the acogs who follow the old teachings of WCG and HWA, which was most definitely old covenant legalistic.
I'm a sabbath and feast keeper, I will be til the day I die, but not because of what HWA or the WCG taught. I'm well beyond that. I don't keep the sabbath because of the fourth commandment and I don't keep the feasts because of Lev. 23.
If people think that's impossible then that's because of their inability to understand that there is a difference between the two. The sabbath and feasts existed long before Sinai and will exist long after. Everyone is free to disagree with my conclusion there. My conclusions don't make me 100% correct and to disagree with my conclusions doesn't make the other person 100% correct. Hopefully we've grown beyond HWA's definitive narrow boundaries.
km
If the church teaches that working on the Sabbath is wrong, yet church members expect others to work for them at restaurants on Sabbath, is that not hypocrisy?
I guess that by your interpretation God was a hypocrite for allowing the priests to work the Temple on the sabbath.
See what kind of mess one gets into when telling others what is hypocritical and what isn't? Just do what you're convicted of and quit calling others hypocrites if they disagree or that they are going against the Great Creators clear instructions when the instructions really aren't as clear as one thinks!
The biggest problem that I see is anyone allowing a church organization to tell them what they can and can't do. That should be between God and the individual.
km
This war has been going on for years. I remember a business run by church members that had to close down on the Sabbath at the direction of the WCG ministry. A friend of the owners believed this was unfair because he said after services, you could watch ministers and their families head out to eat in a restaurant. In his mind both activities involved engaging in commerce on the Sabbath.
I agree with Byker Bob. If you are a Millerite Sabbatarian with a favorite restaurant, you don't want to start pulling the thread on this one - or you will find that you can't eat the food served in restaurants because it is unclean by the standards of Leviticus unless you eat in a Kosher restaurant which is not going to be open on the Sabbath. It is an interesting paradox that the Armstrongists are not as squeamish about this violation of Leviticus as they are about Christmas.
The fact is that the Sabbath was originally implemented for a theocracy in Palestine that was the ancient nation of Israel. My guess is that no inns sold food on the Sabbath and nobody traveled long distances to services. Millerites who wish to keep the Sabbath outside the national theocratic setting should look to how the Jews adapted Sabbath observance when living among the Gentiles in the Diaspora. I believe that originating a new policy is an inferior solution to relying on Jewish tradition. At a minimum any study of this question should contain a thorough study of all Jewish reasoning on this issue. I have read that Jewish solution seems to be to pay for dinner ahead of time at a restaurant that prepares food to Kosher standards but is run by Gentiles. Good luck finding a restaurant like that
in McKinney.
I know a persons beliefs are deeply personal. I used to eat out almost every Sabbath after church without thinking about it. But after thinking about it and I myself cooking for a living. I can't work on the Sabbath, which would be cooking, I can't expect someone else to break the Sabbath so I can eat in a restaurant.
Typing to self not good.
"At a minimum any study of this question should contain a thorough study of all Jewish reasoning on this issue.
Here's the problem with following the Jews concerning God's law, and the problem with following the protestants.
The law was added because of transgressions and was a schoolmaster/tutor to Israel.
Jews today, at least the moderate and orthodox, still adhere to the rigors of the schoolmaster. While protestants have completely thrown out the schoolmaster.
A schoolmaster is a strict teacher, expecting the kids to obey every rule. Let's assume the schoolmaster is placing the best interests of the kids first and not just power hungry.
Here's one example, let's say the kids are outside playing ball, the schoolmaster tells the kids not to get within 20 feet of the road. Suppose the ball goes into the road, the Jews, errr kids have their tape measure out, measure 20 feet and don't go an inch beyond. They are diligent in obeying the schoolmasters rules, but do they understand the reason for the rule?
The protestant on the other hand is the kid running into the road without looking both ways to make sure it's clear. Refusing to accept that there might be a reason for the 20 foot rule.
The adult, knowing there had to be a good reason for the strict 20 foot rule goes to the side of the road, looks both ways, and if it's clear goes out and gets the damn ball.
Most in the acogs are still insisting that the schoolmaster must be obeyed to the letter. While many who reject the acog teachings have fallen for the protestant, "Who gives a damn about the schoolmasters rules".
Then there are a few of us who understand that there was a reason for the rules, but as adults we don't have to obey them as rigidly as when we were kids. We can go to the road, look both ways, and cross if it's clear.
Or we can let our kids play ball on the sabbath with other kids so they don't grow up despising the sabbath because of the ridiculous strict rules imposed by their parents who misunderstood the purpose.
There is a middle ground between Armstrongism and protestantism!
km
"I've never known anyone that refused to eat out to condemn those that do....it's always been the other way around."
What?????? It's always the judgemental pharisees who refuse to eat out who are always condemning, not the other way around. Do you want proof? Look at the very first post made in this thread.
Also just look at your post at 5:02am condemning those who eat out.
How do I know 5:02am is you? You don't know how to capitalize the first word in your sentences.
"I guess that by your interpretation God was a hypocrite for allowing the priests to work the Temple on the sabbath. "
ummm, work done in service to God is not a violation of the Sabbath commandment...
of course, the pharisee will claim that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath is fellowshipping with the brethren and edifying the Church, therefore perfectly acceptable....
God will correct them in due time.
"ummm, work done in service to God is not a violation of the Sabbath commandment...
Well, duh! That's obvious because Jesus made it crystal clear, though you have twisted what he said. He said that they actually profaned the sabbath, he didn't say that their work wasn't a violation. He said they were blameless. Why? Because God is a gracious God, and you are a judgemental Pharisee!
Mat 12:5 - Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
"of course, the pharisee will claim that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath is fellowshipping with the brethren and edifying the Church, therefore perfectly acceptable...."
How can someone really be as dumb as you are? The Pharisees were sticklers to the rules, you make it out that they broke the law just to benefit themselves. Quite the opposite, they over emphasized what was required, just as you are doing regarding the sabbath.
You are amazing, trying to claim the Pharisees were for breaking God's law.
As Spock would say, fascinating!
km
How about this:
"Where reasonably possible to do so, the Christian should avoid receiving the services of a laborer on the Sabbath day."
@km
the pharisee would claim something was corban in order to keep it for themselves, manipulating the law to serve their own desires...."sorry, can't help you, I've dedicated those funds to the temple so I can't give it to you in your time of need"...although they could keep it for themselves until the time came that it went to the temple...
modern day pharisees do the same thing, thinking themselves to be so holy while manipulating the law to get what they want...such as eating out in a restaurant on the Sabbath, hiring servants and conducting business, all of which violate the spirit of the law. (Jesus was all about the spirit of the law, remember?)
add to that the verses where God says not to buy food or wares on the Sabbaths and there is no excuse for doing it.
trying to convince some that eating out is not appropriate is like trying to convince a baptist that the Sabbath is to be kept....ain't gonna happen without God's intervention.
"How do I know 5:02am is you? You don't know how to capitalize the first word in your sentences."
that's my trademark...along with the 3 periods for a pause...
so everyone will know it's the same poster.
maybe one day I'll make an account, but it's hard to justify going to that trouble just for this blog...
COGWA or any other COG would have no problem with Km imaginary life. It's all an illusion.
Km seems in a frenzy. Like beautiful mind film frenzy.
Must blog against everything.
Must be nasty.
Must be vile to others.
Must win verbal punch up with strangers.
Must show how superior intelligent I am.
Must point out how stupid others are.
What does it achieve. It's all worthless in the end and chasing after ghosts.
Not Jesus Christ like at all.
Vanity, Vanity all is Vanity. Even this blog.
11:31am So according to you Nehemiah spoke for God about how Christians should live?
It's no wonder that you are so mentally messed up.
Nehemiah's commands were not God's commands!
Also I don't give a damn about your corban attempt to show others as pharisees rather than you yourself who is the true pharisee.
You sound exactly like the pharisee who prayed to himself,
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, eating at restaurants on the sabbath.
You are just like the pharisee, willfully blind to what you really are.
Lest you think I've been condemning you for not eating out on the sabbath, I am not. I have no problem with what you or others personally do. That's between you and God.
What I'm arguing about is your condemning those who don't agree with you. Just as the very first poster said that those who ate out on the sabbath blasphemed God, you have said they/we worship HWA, which I most definitely dob't worship the pervert. You claim that we don't obey the clear instructions of our Great Creator. Yet when asked for chapter and verse of those clear instructions, you give none.
In fact all that you have presented is Nehemiah's commands, guess what I'm not under the same covenant that Nehemiah was under. Nor do I remember the old covenant law being called the law of Nehemiah.
You really need to learn how the sabbath can be kept under the New Covenant in Jesus' blood.
You are an old covenant legalist. You're most likely the 80 year old that I've debated here before. You've been in the church for decades and you still have a lot to learn.
I'm going to repost something that I wrote a while back. Gary allowed it to go through once hopefully he'll allow it again for people like you who think we keep the sabbath and feasts because of the old Mt. Sinai covenant.
It will come in three parts if Gary allows it.
km
Jul 16, 2019
Why I Keep God's Sabbaths
The heart to obey is what God desires (Deut. 30:2, Deut. 5:29) and the blood of Jesus Christ is the only means for the remission/redemption of sin, not law keeping.
I personally have been a Sabbath and Feast (moedim) day keeper for over 50 years. I believe there is much misunderstanding about keeping the Sabbath, even among Sabbath keepers. I have tried to remedy that among Sabbath keepers as best that I can but way too many are Old Covenant legalists, though they’d vehemently deny it. I can assure you that I’m not.
Way too many Sabbath teachers teach that we are to keep the Sabbath because God commands it in the fourth commandment. Their problem is that the Bible clearly says that the Ten Commandments are the words of the Covenant, the Old Mt. Sinai Covenant is the context of that verse (Ex. 34:28). To claim to keep the Sabbath because the fourth commandment commands it is placing oneself under that Covenant which ended at Jesus’ death according to Gal. 3:19.
Now you’re probably thinking “If you understand that, then why do you keep the seventh day Sabbath?”. Easy, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man (the Greek word for man is anthropos), meaning all of mankind. The Sabbath wasn’t made at Sinai; it was made and sanctified in the garden of Eden. It will also be kept by all flesh in the millennium according to Is. 66:23.
Now the question is, “Is the Sabbath a command "required" under the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood?” Luke 22:20, the answer is no. However, the New Covenant doesn’t command against murder, stealing, lying etc. either. If the New Covenant “required” obedience to these things then the first time that we break any of them would mean that we’ve broken the covenant.
Don’t get me wrong, as Christians we are to obey God’s/Jesus’ commandments but we’re not to keep them because they’re “required” by any Covenant; we’re to obey them because they’re “required” by our Creator, God/YHWH. They’ve been required by God from creation and to not obey is sin. It is a sin to break any of God’s laws. The New Covenant, as a “requirement”, doesn’t command any law, because its sole purpose is to remove the penalty of breaking the law. The law demands our death, both Jew and Gentile, for we have all sinned or broken God’s law. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Jesus died to redeem us from death which the law demands when broken. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).
Continued
Part 2
The erroneous idea that God had one set of laws for the Jews and another set of laws for the Gentiles is not Biblical and it’s caused nothing but confusion. God has one set of laws which he gave at creation. How else did Abraham know God’s laws, statutes, commands, etc? (see Gen. 26:5)
It is only logical that at creation God gave Adam and Eve laws and commands to obey, and that they taught their kids, and their kids taught theirs, but eventually over time they forgot or just refused to obey. While this is nowhere stated in the Bible it would be irresponsible of God to condemn mankind without telling him why. The fact that there’s no evidence of this proves nothing; we have no records from creation other than what Moses wrote 2,500 years later. Do we really know that Adam and the people prior to the flood had no writings? No. The laws of God were remembered, at least in part, (probably because Adam wrote them down) by Abraham’s parents and they taught him. Because of his obedience God made a covenant of Promise with him that Jesus would come from his seed. After Abraham’s initial obedience, God, as a condition of that Promise covenant, didn’t “require” continual obedience from Abraham’s kids. God would fulfill the Promise no matter what, solely because of Abraham’s faithful obedience. However, obedience was required for the simple fact that God was their Creator. As he is ours.
However, 430 years later, because disobedience/law and commandment breaking (transgression) got so bad, (Gal. 3:19) God made a separate covenant with Israel. It had to be separate because God couldn’t add to the original covenant because it was already ratified years earlier (Gal. 3:17). This second covenant was only to last until the Seed should come (Gal. 3:19).
God gave Israel his laws, statutes, judgements etc. at Mt. Sinai and also made a way to be physically forgiven if they sinned (Lev. 4:20, 26, 31, 35). The priesthood and sacrificial system was this physical system. Those sacrifices did not forgive Israel completely, they pointed to Jesus.
The question though is, why would God add laws that weren’t being transgressed if that was the main purpose of the Mt. Sinai covenant according to Paul in Galatians 3:19? (added because of transgressions)
Obviously the Sabbath was a law of God long before Sinai and as I’ve shown will continue to be a law for all flesh during the millennium (Is. 66:23).
The problem now is the misunderstanding/confusion that most have about the New Testament scriptures. Most have been taught that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday because of a mistranslation. Where the bible says “First day of the week” the Greek says, transliterated mia ton sabbaton translated precisely as “First the sabbaths”. Proper exegesis is needed to understand this phrase.
Continued
Part 3
One must understand that Jesus died on Passover, the 14th day of the first biblical month, (Ex. 12:1-6, Lev. 23:5) next one must understand that seven Sabbaths were to be counted (Lev. 23:10-16) from the morrow after the Sabbath during the days of “unleavened bread” (while the Bible doesn’t say this, Jesus’ resurrection during the days of unleavened bread is our example), which most in error call the entire eight-day feast Passover. This was the count to Pentecost. The correct understanding of mia ton sabbaton is the “first day of the weeks” (plural) which is also the first day which started the 50 day count to Pentecost. First day of the weeks or sabbaths because seven sabbaths/weeks were to be counted from that day.
The “first day of the week” or more accurately “first day of the Sabbaths” is not the biblical name for every "Sunday" of the year; it’s the Biblical name for one "Sunday" (morrow after the Sabbath) a year. The day the wave sheaf was to be offered (Lev. 23:11). This wave sheaf pictured Jesus as the first of the firstfruits (1Cor. 23, James 1:18, Rev. 14:4). That was the day that Jesus was resurrected (at sunset beginning that day) and it had been celebrated by Israel for 1500 years before Jesus came to earth.
There is absolutely no biblical reason to keep "Sunday", the day that Jesus was resurrected had been a special day of God’s from at least Lev. 23 (truthfully God’s feasts, Hebrew word moedim, are first mentioned in Gen. 1:14). Should we keep this day yearly? Sure. Weekly? No.
We are to keep the seventh day-Sabbath. Not because of the Old Covenant or the fourth commandment; we’re to keep it because it was made at creation for mankind. Jesus said so. He also said that He’s the Lord of the Sabbath, making the seventh day Sabbath the Lord’s Day, not Sunday.
We don’t obey God to be saved as we all have earned death. Thankfully Jesus has given the only way to be forgiven, which is His shed blood. Do we now go out and sin because we’re under grace? Sabbath breaking is still a sin and not because the fourth commandment says so. It’s a sin because God, at creation, set that day aside (sanctified, made holy) by ceasing and made that day for us, mankind. (Jesus said so!) Yes, it pictures our rest in Jesus as it has for almost 6,000 years. That rest won’t completely take place until he returns to establish his reign in the millennium, the 1,000 years that the seventh day Sabbath pictures (Col. 2:16-17). This is why all of God’s Sabbaths are shadows of things to come. They foreshadow future events in God’s plan of salvation for all of mankind.
But most importantly, the seventh day Sabbath reveals exactly which God we worship (Ez. 20:12). The seventh-day Sabbath is a sign that the God who created all things, the God who ceased on the seventh day of creation, the same God that sanctified the seventh day also sanctifies us.
That is why I keep God’s Sabbath and Feasts! (Lev. 23:2)
km
11:33am Again your stupidity abounds. Just how was calling something corban beneficial to the pharisee other than it making them look religious to others?
That was the thing with the pharisee, they were judgemental and did everything that they could to make themselves look more religious than others.
Exactly the same as what you've been doing here. Rather than you yourself just silently doing what you believe to be right, and not eat out on the sabbath, you condemn others.
Just go back through the posts, here was your very first post:
"Anonymous said...
"Herbert Armstrong’s teaching and practice on this subject can be traced as far back as the late 1940s, and he consistently taught that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath was permissible. "
well, I suppose that if you worship Herbert Armstrong, then it's perfectly ok to eat out in a restaurant on the Sabbath....
if you worship the Great Creator, however, you will do as He instructs.
April 25, 2020 at 5:02 AM
Prior to that post of yours I didn't say a word. It was your condemning others of worshipping HWA or disobeying our Great Creator that prompted me to get involved.
I could care less about your belief about restaurants on the sabbath. I'd never try to convince you that you're wrong for believing it to be a sin. Where you're wrong is in your judgement and condemnation of others who disagree.
That is what makes you of the same substance as a pharisee! And you are just as blind to that fact as they were.
You are of the typical old covenant, legalistic, Armstrongist mentality that I rejected nearly 30 years ago. I grew up in that shit from two years old to 27. I still keep the sabbath and the feasts, but I sure as hell won't keep them according to your rules, Herbvert's rules, or any of the acogs rules. If I'm not keeping them the way that you think they should be kept I say GREAT, since you've proven yourself to not be very intelligent biblically. I'll never follow a corrupt legalist like HWA again.
km
1:00pm and 1:09pm Jealous that you can't put together a cognitive thought?
Thanks Gary!
km
Hey 1:00pm and 1:08pm. I love ya! lol
km
As if anyone's going to read it.
2:21pm If they want to learn something they will.
2:21pm What was that? All I read of yours was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!
km....dude, chill.
you're throwing accusations left and right...and might not realize that you're doing it.
we've gotten the same response from baptist family...our refusal to participate in christmas festivities is seen as condemning them for doing it...
same with the restaurant thing...those that go out feel judged because of those that won't go out....when we are not judging anyone....if they were secure in their faith they would not be upset by those that disagree...people going out doesn't threaten my beliefs at all.
as was posted on another thread, some folks here take great pleasure in poking fun at COG beliefs and practices, but when their beliefs are challenged (sunday, christmas, easter) they take great offense....
same thing is happening on this thread....
From an evil heart comes evil thoughts.
One day the brethren will be free of you.
Been smoking the whacky backy...got it bad.
WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH at 1:52 PM said...“A friend of mine went and stayed in Wadsworth for the Spring Holy Days and was shocked that the construction crew building the headquarters of God was working not only on the Sabbath but also on the Holy Days.”
With Satan's false prophets like klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies, so-called “Sabbath-keeping” is all about requiring people to drive hundreds of miles to have Dave vomit all over them and take all their money and all their possessions. Of course everyone will be expected to work 24/7/365 for Satan's false prophet klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies. There is NO SABBATH REST in satanic imposter cults like Dave's Restored Cash Grab (RCG).
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The different so-called COGs believe different things, or are not even sure what to believe.
Herbert W. Armstrong of the Worldwide Church of God originally taught that the temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt, but after one of his Plain Truth magazine subscribers from Australia tried in 1969 to burn down the old Al-Aqsa Mosque that was cluttering the temple mount, HWA changed his tune and taught for the rest of his life that there was no need for another temple to be built before the second coming of Jesus Christ.
David Treybig of the Church of God, a Worldwide Association wrote that, “While the spiritual temple spoken of by Paul is already being built and a physical temple will exist during the Millennium, it remains to be seen whether the Jews will build another physical temple prior to the return of Jesus Christ.”
Norbert Link of the Church of the Eternal God teaches that a temple must be built soon in order for the “man of sin” to occupy it, and that President Donald Trump (who is a big thinker and a big builder) will have something to do with getting it constructed.
Suddenly there does seem to be more pressure than ever before to get a temple built. Things do appear to be falling into place for it to happen. The Temples of the Lord throughout history are typically distinguished from each other by the name of the main character behind its construction: Solomon's Temple. Zerubbabel's Temple. Herod's Temple. Trump's Temple?
If another temple is built in Jerusalem, watch while it is being built. My guess is that it will NOT be constructed on any of the weekly Sabbaths.
Only other people, in other cities, in other parts of the world, build their own unimportant headquarters buildings, auditoriums, etc. for their own religions on God's weekly Sabbaths.
3:32pm I know exactly what I'm accusing you of, being a self-righteous, hypocritical pharisee.
"Feel judged" "Feel judged?" Do you actually think anyone gives a shit about your judgemental attitude? I bet the other people that you know are just like myself, they don't care what you do until you start condemning them.
Remember, you posted on this thread before I did. You didn't just say "I don't believe in going out on the sabbath". If that was all that you said then I would have said nothing.
Do you really forget what you said? Here it is:
"well, I suppose that if you worship Herbert Armstrong, then it's perfectly ok to eat out in a restaurant on the Sabbath....
if you worship the Great Creator, however, you will do as He instructs."
Here's proof that I'd have said nothing if you'd have just given your personal belief, without judgement on others. Unknown made a comment about his/her personal choice of not eating out on the sabbath, but they judged no one. They simply gave their belief and I respect that. You judged and condemned, unknown made a simple statement of their belief and practice:
" Unknown said...
I know a persons beliefs are deeply personal. I used to eat out almost every Sabbath after church without thinking about it. But after thinking about it and I myself cooking for a living. I can't work on the Sabbath, which would be cooking, I can't expect someone else to break the Sabbath so I can eat in a restaurant.
April 26, 2020 at 12:43 AM
Go back and look, did I make one comment against unknown's personal belief? No. Nor would I have said anything to you if you had just stated your personal belief.
So much for your not caring what other people do.
No, I won't "chill out" when assholes like you make all sabbath keepers look like we're judgemental asses.
Before our little blog "funny man" (1:00pm, 1:09pm, 2:21pm, 3:34pm and 3:36pm) speaks up remember I've not been judging anyone here except an old covenant sabbath keeper who judges and condemns fellow sabbath keepers!
km
Has anyone who disagrees with HWA, Dave or anyone else allowing workers to work on projects on the sabbath even considered what they might be doing to the workers if it wasn't allowed?
We're in a completely different time than when the old covenant was written. Servants then were working off a debt that they owed the owner.
Today people work to provide for themselves and their family. That is a big difference.
Did you even stop to think that the worker might need to get all the work that he can to pay his bills? Those college projects were big projects, not just someone mowing your front yard on the sabbath.
Those who condemn this aren't doing a very good job using their reasoning skills, if they even have such skills.
If another temple is built in Jerusalem, watch while it is being built. My guess is that it will NOT be constructed on any of the weekly Sabbaths.
Only other people, in other cities, in other parts of the world, build their own unimportant headquarters buildings, auditoriums, etc. for their own religions on God's weekly Sabbaths.
Or, or, or did you possibly think that maybe why the Temple won't be built on tge sabbath is because the builders will be sabbath keepers?
If HWA or Pack forced a sabbath keeper to work on their buildings on the sabbath then you might have a case. I seriously doubt that HWA or Pack forced anyone to work on the sabbath. Most construction crews work six days a week.
Being forced to work or choosing to work are completely different. Something legalists don't understand!
There are many who believe that Israel is still a theocracy, as in ancient times. There are observant Jews in Israel for certain, but the events of the holocaust were the birthing point for the modern secular or agnostic Jew. Many who survived that era lost their faith because the protection which they expected against those events was nonexistent.
I'm also wondering how they would even find the Levites, after thousands of years of assimilation, to perform all of the priestly temple duties, but we've got to remember that there were numerous improvisations duri g the era of Herod's Temple.
BB
Huh BB.............. never heard of Spinoza?
Nck
KM,
Passover, UB, and Pentecost have exact origins well after Noah or Abraham so I do not see why or how they could observe any of them. Passover was directly instituted on the night before the Exodus when the death angel passed over homes with blood on their doorposts. Unleavened Bread was instituted as a remembrance to when they left Egypt without time to leaven their bread, and Pentecost was established counting from the Sabbath during Unleavened Bread. No mention of keeping of days before Exodus. If you want to that's your choice, but I can't see Abraham doing so. He did follow God's commands to give up his pagan gods and leave Ur and be circumcised and pass that on as a statute. He followed many commands and statutes of the Lord.
Earl, you're free to believe whatever you want but I disagree with your conclusions.
First Gen. 1:14 says that God placed the sun and moon in the sky to be for moedim or appointments. King James called them feasts.
Second, when God told Abraham that he was going to give him a child he told him that he'd return at the time appointed, moedim, at the time of life. This was obviously the spring feasts.
Gen 18:14 - Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Then something interesting occurs, God comes down to check out Sodom and Lot makes him and the two angels unleavened bread.
Gen 19:3 - And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
We all know that it takes nine months for a baby, so it's interesting that about a year later Sarah gives birth to Isaac, and...
Gen 21:1 - And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
Gen 21:2 - For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time (moedim) of which God had spoken to him.
Earl, I respect your right to disagree with my conclusion but to me it's obvious, God's appointments, moedim, were known and kept at this time.
I understand that some need things spelled out clearly for them, that's ok. I have asked this before, God destroyed the entire earth with a flood because he said man was evil and sinful. Please go through the first six chapters of Genesis and note all the commands that God gave. Which of them deserved worldwide death?
Here are the ones that I've found:
Gen. 1:28 - Be fruitful and multiply.
Gen. 2:16 - Eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge
Gen. 2:24 - Man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his wife
Gen. 4:15 - No one was to slay Cain
Gen. 6:14 - Make an ark of gopher wood
Those are the only commands that I could find written down. So unless there were other commands worthy of death that weren't mentioned, then God is a monster for killing all but eight for living in momma's basement after getting married.
The point that I'm making is that the first six chapters of Genesis covers about 1,500 to 2,000 years and very little is written. If we're going to insist that all of God's laws had to be written in the garden before we'll obey. Well...
Again, I respect your freedom to disagree and your respectful post.
km
Anon, aka km, April 26, 2020 at 1:13 PM, wrote Why I Keep God's Sabbaths on Jul 16, 2019 saying:
******
“…The heart to obey is what God desires (Deut. 30:2, Deut. 5:29) and the blood of Jesus Christ is the only means for the remission/redemption of sin, not law keeping…I personally have been a Sabbath and Feast (moedim) day keeper for over 50 years…”
******
You wrote: "The heart to obey is what God desires (Deut. 30:2, Deut. 5:29)..."
God has been working a Plan of Salvation, but knew the ancient physical Israelites were not going to accomplish what is said in Deut 30:2, which in context states:
Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
All of those Israelites died without fulfilling all that is said there. They were destined to experience the blessing and the curse and be scattered. They all died. There are a number of reasons that they were not going to obey God's voice. For example, see the previous chapter of Deut.
Deut 29:4 "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
Those Israelites would not have that heart until God gave it to them, which will not be reality for them until God resurrects them and gives them life at the time of the second resurrection (after the 1,000 years, after Satan exits the pit, etc.)
Jeremiah 17:9 explains what the human heart, without God's Spirit, is like. So does Romans 8:7 if you want a New Testament verse, one among many.
God will fulfill the words of 2 Corinthians 5:19, and we will see that "desire," as you called it, reality. It's a long time off yet, but it's a done deal.
Deut 5:29 states: "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!"
Again, as you later stated they all sinned and died. Wages paid!
They will live again, and God will grant/give, by the power of His Spirit (Zech 4:6) them that heart where they will finally fear God...and love what God accomplished in them. They got exposed to evil. Will they have learned to hate evil? Time will tell; it will be obvious when they are again given life.
And the law, and/or the commandments? Ancient physical Israel couldn't perfectly keep them. Why not? Part of the reason was given above. Here's another reason:
Col 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
For any without God's Spirit, the law is against us, contrary to us. Really? How do we know? Each of us will die. So far, God has enabled only one human being, Jesus Christ, to perfectly keep God's law. Jesus who? The one to become the Lamb, part of God's Plan, to be slain from before the foundation of the world: our Passover sacrificed for us.
Anyone among us thinking they perfectly keep God's law is fooling themselves. And when/if they think the do perfectly obey God, and then blame/judge their fellow human beings for sins, then they are self-righteous.
Thankfully, God is not a respecter of persons and His perfect Plan of Salvation to save all humanity, and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels, is going to happen before all is said and done. The shed blood of Jesus Christ has its place, and I see you know its value to human beings. Will the rest of humanity come to understand that too?
Time will tell.
John
km, April 26, 2020 at 1:14 PM, wrote Part 2 saying in part:
******
"...After Abraham’s initial obedience, God, as a condition of that Promise covenant, didn’t “require” continual obedience from Abraham’s kids. God would fulfill the Promise no matter what, solely because of Abraham’s faithful obedience.."
******
That last sentence there is not true. Abraham did not demonstrate faithful obedience. That is an assumption on your part. God just made promises while Abram was still in an uncircumcised state, and they are promises that will become reality in the Eighth Day, after Satan is loosed from the pit. It has nothing to do with the so-called millennium so many think is soon coming where Jesus Christ will rule on earth.
What did God promise Abram?
Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him..."
Abram did nothing when God gave them promises, which have yet to be fulfilled. All families of the earth have not been blessed.
Also, Abram did not depart right away but, according to the book of Acts, he departed after his Daddy died.
God knew what He was going to do with Abram. God did it. How do we know?
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:18
Abram, like so many others, before/after him became the workmanship of God's hands. We have his example of what God did with him. Abraham's obedience came as a result of God, by the power of His Spirit, working with him.
Abram didn't earn anything, didn't deserve anything, and God didn't owe him. God just did it! God had not been looking for any obedience from Abram before giving promises to him.
John
"That last sentence there is not true. Abraham did not demonstrate faithful obedience. That is an assumption on your part. God just made promises while Abram was still in an uncircumcised state,
Abram didn't earn anything, didn't deserve anything, and God didn't owe him. God just did it! God had not been looking for any obedience from Abram before giving promises to him.
Really? Now who's assuming?
Gen 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 - And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Time has told, you don't know what you're talking about!
km
"Abram did nothing when God gave them promises, which have yet to be fulfilled. All families of the earth have not been blessed."
Hmmm, I guess that Jesus coming through Abraham doesn't qualify as a blessing to the entire world. At least not according to time questioning John.
John,
Do you, like Martin Luther, deny James?
Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
km, April 26, 2020 at 1:14 PM, wrote Part 2 saying in part the following additional comments:
******
"...However, obedience was required for the simple fact that God was their Creator. As he is ours.
However, 430 years later, because disobedience/law and commandment breaking (transgression) got so bad, (Gal. 3:19) God made a separate covenant with Israel. It had to be separate because God couldn’t add to the original covenant because it was already ratified years earlier (Gal. 3:17). This second covenant was only to last until the Seed should come (Gal. 3:19)..."
******
When the first covenant occurred via Moses it was the people who, agreeing to obey God, made that covenant with God, and then subsequently, very soon thereafter, broke it. That covenant ended. Obviously, the law didn't end, but what about a second, separate, covenant?
With a second covenant, it was God who made it with the people this time. It was to be forever, regardless of whether the Israelites broke it or not. Of course, we know the people won't obey it for reasons I earlier stated in a post to you. Anyway, God made that covenant with Moses and the Israelites and He, God, would work it out, in His "good time" within His Plan of Salvation, and it is forever. It does not matter whether the people obey or not. Time will tell!! Here's one verse:
Exodus 34:10 "And he said, Behold, I MAKE a covenant: before all thy people I WILL DO marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou [art] shall see the work of the LORD: for it [is] a terrible thing that I will do with thee."
God will "do" it, regardless of when a "Seed" would come; it is forever! Here's another verse:
:27 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I HAVE MADE a covenant with thee and with Israel."
It really is a fascinating thing. Is God really that faithful? God has preserved these examples, which show human beings coming to learn to know evil (Remember Adam and Eve's experience?) and proving that without God's Spirit they can't simply obey God. It's an example, and we're still learning the lesson, aren't we?
God told Moses prior to his death what was in store for those Israelites: they would not, could not, keep that covenant that God made!
Deut 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. [{sleep: Heb. lie down }]
:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? [{befall: Heb. find }]
:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
To be continued just a little bit more…
John
John
Continuing…
But km, that is not the end of the story, b/c if it was, what a bleak story! It's an example. God spells out more details of this example nation that God created in Deut 32.
God is working a huge Plan of Salvation!
:43 "Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people. [{Rejoice … : or, Praise his people, ye nations: or, Sing ye }"
But km, don't expect God to work that all out by the time of the Mickey Mouse Millennium (MMM) where so many expect Jesus Christ to soon return and reign on earth. It's for the time spelled out by the Eighth Day, God's seventh annual Festival. You think the Sabbath is looking forward to that MMM, but it doesn't. That is a satanic deception people have brought into. God's 7th day Sabbath is a shadow of God's 7th annual Festival: the Eighth Day, the Great Last Day at a time after the second resurrection occurs.
Then, the nations will rejoice as it says in verse 34, and not before. So many people of the xcogs have striven to squeeze events for that Eighth Day into some MMM, and it won't work out, and...
Time will tell.
John
John, you keep ranting about what you call the MMM, but you never explain clearly what you believe.
Do you deny the 1,000 year reign mentioned in Revelation?
Rev 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Have you not considered that your understanding of the Eighth day might be as flawed as HWA's and the acogs? They think the entire seven days picture the millennium, they do not. The seventh day pictures the millennium. The seven days picture the entire plan of salvation. The Eighth day pictures when that plan is complete!
You seem to think (I don't really know because I don't read minds and none of your posts are very clear) the Eighth day pictures the the GWTJ. How so? If people are still living in the flesh in the GWTJ, why is there no command to live in a tabernacle that day?
The reason is because the Eighth day pictures when God's glorious plan has been accomplished. There will be no more flesh. The Eighth day pictures Eternity, not the Mickey Mouse, Disney Land theme that you keep spouting.
John, you know not of what you type!
km
Apparently time will tell John doesn't understand the difference in the biblical covenants. Here's an email that I recently sent to a friend on the subject.
***********************************
Thanks, I've been dealing with those who misunderstand Paul for years. Even sabbath keepers who claim Paul was a false apostle because of their misunderstanding him.
The WCG, HWA and his clergy class have confused many. I think they might have done more harm to the understanding of the bible than good.
I know many who believe that the New Covenant in Jesus' blood is just a continuation of the old Mt. Sinai covenant. It is not. It was added til the Seed, Jesus, came.
There is an Everlasting covenant, what I call a Salvation covenant, that has existed from before the foundation of the world. The New Covenant in Jesus' blood is a continuation of that covenant, not the old Mt. Sinai covenant which was merely added because of transgressions.
The first mention of the Salvation covenant was in the garden when God told the serpent that the woman's seed would "bruise his head". A prophecy of Jesus.
Noah was under the Salvation covenant. Abraham was under the Salvation covenant. The New Covenant that God will make with Israel and Judah in the Kingdom is a continuation of the Salvation covenant. And the covenant that we are under now, the New Covenant in Jesus' blood is a continuation of that ongoing, Everlasting, Salvation covenant.
There's only one covenant that can give Eternal life and the old Mt. Sinai covenant isn't it!
km
km, April 28, 2020 at 4:36 AM, said...
******
"Really? Now who's assuming?
Gen 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 - And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Time has told, you don't know what you're talking about!
******
km,
Why are you in Gen 17? Why are you in Gen 26?
My comment was made and I cited Genesis 12 when Abram was 75 years old or younger. He was 75 when he departed Ur. God had been dealing with Abram for 25 years and each of those verses cited in Genesis 17 and 26 are true.
Your earlier comment was similar to something a person, who believed in a salvation by works/obedience, somehow pleasing God and then God does something. God gave promises to Abram at about age 75 and it was not b/c of faithful obedience! What did you write again?
"...After Abraham’s initial obedience, God, as a condition of that Promise covenant, didn’t “require” continual obedience from Abraham’s kids. God would fulfill the Promise no matter what, solely because of Abraham’s faithful obedience.."
There was no "solely because of Abraham's faithful obedience" back when Abram was about 75 years of age. Incidentally, faith is a fruit of God's Spirit: not a fruit of Abram. God works it all out by His Spirit.
Someday, Abram will be alive, and then he can tell you face to face how it all happened and how God accomplished the works in his life. He is a witness of what God did in his life, and he is an example preserved for us, today.
God, not Abram, gets all of the credit, honor and glory for what happened to make him faithful and obedient.
Psalm 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.
3 His work [is] honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion.
Abram did not earn any promises of God.
Time will tell...
John
Believe it or not!
Anon, April 28, 2020 at 5:22 AM, said:
******
"...Do you, like Martin Luther, deny James?
Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
******
Martin Luther was spiritually blind. There is no reason to deny James' words.
Questions for you are: justified by whose works?
Abraham's works or God's works, by the power of God's Spirit (Zech 4:6), in/through Abraham?
John
Your earlier comment was similar to something a person, who believed in a salvation by works/obedience, somehow pleasing God and then God does something.
And all of your comments are similar to something a Calvinist would spout. "God does it all." " We can do nothing." "God knows who will be saved and who won't". "It's all been predestinated."
While you're certainly free to believe such crap, I don't!
Maybe you should read your bible a little more, while it's impossible for salvation to be by works, we've all already earned death a thousand times over. God most certainly rewards us based upon our works, whether you agree or not that doesn't matter. All your claims of MMM does not make you right.
I'm never going to agree with your Calvinistic theology, so it's pointless continuing this.
km
Anon, April 28, 2020 at 5:15 AM, replied as follows:...
******
"Abram did nothing when God gave them promises, which have yet to be fulfilled. All families of the earth have not been blessed."
Hmmm, I guess that Jesus coming through Abraham doesn't qualify as a blessing to the entire world. At least not according to time questioning John.
******
Anon, what do you think? You are going off on a tangent, going off on a pig's tail.
Which Jesus do you have in mind? There is something called "another Jesus."
Genesis 12:3 specifically said this:
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."
What God was going to do was going to be via Abram, and God is not a respecter of persons, so all families includes the entire world. The important thing is that God says He will bless them. God is working out a long range plan and, obviously, Jesus Christ, is part of that Plan, but the promises and blessings will be much more. Time will tell.
The important thing is that God will do that, or He is a liar.
For now, so far, this world for the most part is ignorant of that God. Let's allow Jesus Christ to remind us:
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
This world does not believe, nor know, that God who made those promises to Abram.
When will the world believe and know? After they are resurrected, are restored to life again, and then see how God provides all sorts of blessings. Jesus Christ is a blessing. That resurrection will be a blessing, etc. A day is coming later, after Satan exits the pit, when all shall know who the LORD is.
Time will tell...
John
"Someday, Abram will be alive, and then he can tell you face to face how it all happened and how God accomplished the works in his life. He is a witness of what God did in his life, and he is an example preserved for us, today. "
Hilarious. You say that as if you know exactly how it happened and Abraham will one day correct km to your way of thinking. Again, hilarious!
Sorry forgot to sign my 2:02pm post.
km
Gary, I apologize for sending that post on the covenants twice. I didn't see where it came through earlier so I thought there might have been a problem on my end. Feel free to delete the 2:02pm post.
km
Anonymous 9:13 AM. Good points.
Where is the scripture that says "most didn't have God's Spirit"? Seems like the COGs liked to say that about the OT Israelites but where's the proof?
Anon, April 28, 2020 at 11:35 AM, said:
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[[Quoting John]] "Someday, Abram will be alive, and then he can tell you face to face how it all happened and how God accomplished the works in his life. He is a witness of what God did in his life, and he is an example preserved for us, today."
Hilarious. You say that as if you know exactly how it happened and Abraham will one day correct km to your way of thinking. Again, hilarious!
******
Scripture is very plain regarding the resurrection of Abraham. What do you think he will be doing? I'm just saying that if km will not believe the verses I cited, fine, just be patient and later speak to Abram, who will explain the works in his life.
I expect to be alive also, and if Abram gives himself credit for those works in his life, then I can be corrected, repent, and accept that, but one thing is for sure for those cannot believe how Abram was a different man at age 75, compared to when he was 99 years old, then look forward to the resurrection, b/c km is making up his own theory to say that Abraham had faithful obedience, first, before God ever gave his awesome promises, and hilarious to you, or not...
Time will tell.
John
7:13pm Read Jer. 31:31-33 and answer this. How are the two covenants different? How does God put His law in their inward parts and write them on their hearts?
I really don't think the teaching that ancient Israel for the most part didn't have God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside them is exclusive to the acogs.
https://bible.org/question/how-did-holy-spirit-operate-lives-ot-saints
km
"b/c km is making up his own theory to say that Abraham had faithful obedience, first, before God ever gave his awesome promises, and hilarious to you, or not..."
Is he really? What part of the word "because" in Gen. 26:5 don't you understand?
Gen 26:4 - And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Verse 5 says nothing about whether Abraham was 75 or 99 when God decided to do this. Your arguments against km are pointless. You seem to be the one pushing your pet theory. I don't recall km saying anything about "faithful obedience" as you keep putting it. I'd say you have your own definition for what that means too. Everyone disobeys to a certain extent, even Abraham. You seem to be dealing in the minutiae that km wasn't even addressing. After all, as he said you haven't even sufficiently addressed your problem with the MMM as you call it, nor explained your belief on future events and eschatology.
KM,
Because I see no proof within the legitimate evidence you base your conclusion on, I do not accept it. Yet, what if i am wrong? I believe acceptance and faith in the sacrifice of Christ is the only means to salvation. But, again, what if the Lord prefers it? So, if I can see a benefit in the Sabbath (and "do" the other sabbaths) and do not my customary work while also avoiding pork (wish that rhymed), then I have fulfilled those things you point to for a spirit of obedience.
Obedience does not require belief in its necessity. I do believe clean foods are healthier for us, and I do believe a sabbath can be used for our good. I can draw some meaning from the holy days but believe the COG method harms spiritually-- I certainly do not need the "holyday plan" to understand the need for our Passover Lamb, our humility and accepting his bread within us, and the need for the Holy Spirit (Passover, UB, Pentecost). I don't need Trumpets, (COG misunderstood Atonement), Tabernacles, or LGD to read Christ will return and reconcile us to the Father however that actually works.
This is all revealed in the New Covenant and indicates that these days were simply for the nation of Israel as a tutor, but we now know Christ Who is with us now and saves us now, not just some time in the future. Glory!
So, observance does not require faith in the inherent worth of the obedience as different days could yield the same thing, but physical rest and spiritual focus is good for man, so to do so on traditional days is not a problem. But, that nonchalance seems some additional evidence that the days were merely part of the Sinai covenant. Moses wrote the Pentateuch and was focused on the Sinai Law and was correct (of course) that the heavenly bodies were for days and feasts, but perhaps only once the Sinai covenant began. And, Abraham kept many commands and charges of God much more faithful and fundamental than that of observing sabbaths as I mentioned before.
The remembrance of the Lord's love and faithfulness to His people adds some good to the traditional days I grant you (I primarily feel this for the weekly sabbath, and it dissipates into a negative when I attach it to the COGs). But, remembrances of specific days past stirs the hearts of many when fully considered and applies for me to Wave Sheaf Sunday and the empty tomb perhaps most strongly. How glorious. Purim, the 4th of July, and Memorial Day also add meaning though antiquity supplements the meaning of most memorials. I currently simply believe they can add to one's Christian experience in simply the remembrance if fully removed from pharisaical elements or belief in them as "works", but they are not necessary for salvation.
Earl, I didn't say that they were necessary for salvation. Though I do think they are necessary if our goal is perfect obedience. Which of course in the flesh we'll never attain. I believe to not keep them is sin. I also believe that Jesus saves sinners, even in their/our sin.
As I said, I'm not an old covenant legalist. I'm not an Armstrongist, though some will disagree. I know where my salvation comes and it's in nothing that I can ever do. I also know that I'll never perfectly obey God, that's no reason not to try.
Have a great day,
km
Earl said,
"then I have fulfilled those things you point to for a spirit of obedience.
I think you're misunderstanding me Earl. I wrote that to explain why I keep the sabbath and feasts, not to show others what they need to do to have "a spirit of obedience".
I don't know how long you've been on this blog but I've said many times here that I would not be the least surprised to see my grandparents in the first resurrection, even before myself. They were dedicated Sunday, Christmas and Easter keeping Christians. They did not work on Sunday and went to church every week.
I believe that when God looks for "a spirit of obedience" he looks at how sincere one is in trying to obey him. Yes, obedience is very important because it was because of disobedience that Jesus had to come and die for us. I'm not saying we have to obey perfectly, but I think God expects us to sincerely try.
As I said before, I think it's a sin not to keep the sabbath, but if only sinless people go to heaven (yes I believe that the anti-heaven crap in the WCG was wrong) God is going to be very lonely.
km
Anon, April 29, 2020 at 9:36 AM, replied to John saying: "...I don't recall km saying anything about "faithful obedience" as you keep putting it. I'd say you have your own definition for what that means too. Everyone disobeys to a certain extent, even Abraham..."
You may not recall km's phrase of "faithful obedience," but it may be easily read in the second paragraph of km's following earlier comment of April 26, 2020 at 1:14 PM:
[[Anonymous said...
Part 2
The erroneous idea that God had one set of laws for the Jews and another set of laws for the Gentiles is not Biblical and it’s caused nothing but confusion. God has one set of laws which he gave at creation. How else did Abraham know God’s laws, statutes, commands, etc? (see Gen. 26:5)
It is only logical that at creation God gave Adam and Eve laws and commands to obey, and that they taught their kids, and their kids taught theirs, but eventually over time they forgot or just refused to obey. While this is nowhere stated in the Bible it would be irresponsible of God to condemn mankind without telling him why. The fact that there’s no evidence of this proves nothing; we have no records from creation other than what Moses wrote 2,500 years later. Do we really know that Adam and the people prior to the flood had no writings? No. The laws of God were remembered, at least in part, (probably because Adam wrote them down) by Abraham’s parents and they taught him. Because of his obedience God made a covenant of Promise with him that Jesus would come from his seed. After Abraham’s initial obedience, God, as a condition of that Promise covenant, didn’t “require” continual obedience from Abraham’s kids. God would fulfill the Promise no matter what, solely because of Abraham’s faithful obedience. However, obedience was required for the simple fact that God was their Creator. As he is ours...
Continued
April 26, 2020 at 1:14 PM]]
And Anon, you continued with saying: "Everyone disobeys to a certain extent, even Abraham."
Yes, you "got the point" of what I was striving to make with km. When I referred to Abram, age 75, back in Genesis 12, not years later in some Genesis 26, he was not a model of one demonstrating "faithful obedience," and to say he had that at age 75 is tantamount to putting him on some sort of a pedestal that he does not belong on. God made His promises, and God was determined to work out whatever and keep His word.
Do you want an example of unfaithful obedience of Abram? Abram was told that he was to have a son through Sarah, remember? Oh, but there was a way that seemed right, wasn't there? Ishmael, through another woman, pops up on the scene. So much for faithful obedience.
If you don't believe that, well, Abram will come up in the second resurrection, and you, like km, may ask him about faithful obedience by Abram prior to receiving God's promises. Will you do that?
Time will tell...
John
John, though you quoted much of what km had written, not once did he say the two words "faithful obedience", he said obedience. You're reading your own preconceived ideas into what he wrote. I find his writings much more sensible than yours!
John, you're interchanging what you call "faithful obedience" with perfect obedience. km never once said that and God in Gen. 26:5 in no way implies that. Abraham was not perfect and km never claimed that he was. As I said you're dealing in minutiae, you're nit-picking and arguing points that were never made by km.
I was wrong, km did use the two words faithful obedience once, but from the context I don't think he meant perfect obedience like John is implying.
JS
JS, April 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM, said:
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"I was wrong, km did use the two words faithful obedience once, but from the context I don't think he meant perfect obedience like John is implying."
******
JS, I am glad you admitted finally seeing the phrase "faithful obedience;" however, I would not ever imply any such thing as "perfect obedience," primarily because there is a spirit-in-man, including in Abram/Abraham, and in us, and that spirit-in-man would not allow him/us to attain such a state.
No flesh should glory in God's presence. I Cor 1:29
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5; Ephesians 2:2
That spirit is not only in the Christians, sealed Firstfruits, that James was addressing, but it has been in all human beings since the day God allowed Satan to infest/infect the minds of both Adam and Eve, who, like the rest of us, was destined to experience evil and eventually learn to hate evil.
That spirit is the very reason that you cannot choose to stop sinning, and choose to make that decision stick for the rest of your life such that sin in your life perfectly ceases. That was true for Abram. I had in an earlier post mentioned Genesis 12 when Abram was about 75 years ole, and perfect "anything" never came into thought until km brought up verses in Genesis 17 when Abram was 99 years old.
The Apostle Paul knew he could not eliminate sin in his life:
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:17
Here's something else Paul knew: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." Romans 7:18
Who takes those words to heart and believes them?
Another Apostle, John, was aware of this information also:
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." I John 3:8
Neither John, Paul or James lied to us, and we're still learning from them.
And time will tell...and have a good day!
John
" I had in an earlier post mentioned Genesis 12 when Abram was about 75 years ole, and perfect "anything" never came into thought until km brought up verses in Genesis 17 when Abram was 99 years old.
Not once did I even imply "perfect" obedience. Faithful obedience does not mean perfect obedience, if it did Heb. 11 would be nothing but bullshit.
John, JS is spot on, you assumed that I meant that Abraham obeyed perfectly when I used the term faithful obedience, and you went off on a tangent arguing against something that I never said.
Many here decided long ago not to debate with you because you're unable to debate sensibly, I think I'll just follow their lead.
km
I actually appreciated what you said, km. My family and I are in a very similar circumstance, but our children are young. I’m certain that our family and friends from the cogs believe that we have fallen away, but in truth we are just leaving behind the pharisaic interpretation of religion.
It’s nice to see that we aren’t alone.
Thanks SL. Feel free to email me. Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
km, May 1, 2020 at 10:23 AM, wrote:
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"...Not once did I even imply "perfect" obedience. Faithful obedience does not mean perfect obedience, if it did Heb. 11 would be nothing but bullshit.
John, JS is spot on, you assumed that I meant that Abraham obeyed perfectly when I used the term faithful obedience, and you went off on a tangent arguing against something that I never said.
Many here decided long ago not to debate with you because you're unable to debate sensibly, I think I'll just follow their lead."
******
km, you apparently don't agree with the scriptures I had presented to you showing that Abram did not receive promises from God b/c of anything Abram did. It was all about God and what God's will was to accomplish through Abram.
When you focused upon Abram's obedience by writing this: "God would fulfill the Promise no matter what, solely because of Abraham’s faithful obedience. However, obedience was required..."
I disagreed with your emphasis on the man there. So, what does my point boil down to? Simply this: "God would fulfill the Promise no matter what!"
That's it, but apparently you believe more was required...and you are welcome to believe what you want. I'm not striving to get you to change your thoughts; I just didn't agree with you.
Oh, and debates? I don't like them either, and I accept that people disagree with what I write, although they may actually not care for the scriptures I cite more than anything else. Anyway, they are welcome to do so. This blog site is a welcoming site for many to express their thoughts, and hopefully, as time continues on, without blaming and judging one another.
And what's the problem, at times, with debate?
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Debates are like evil fruit mentioned in Romans 1:29-30; Gal 5:19-21
Some people like to fast and want their voices to be heard on high, but God isn't interested in that...or debate!
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as [ye do this] day, to make your voice to be heard on high. [{ye shall … : or, ye fast not as this day }]
Will people read Isaiah 58:4 and then "repent?"
Time will tell...
John
the 4 the commandment. Backed up by Nehemiah 13. Exodus 16 where people were not to collect Mannah on the Sabbath. 4 chapters before Moses was given the 10 commandments in stone. The Sabbath was made for man at creation. Mark 2:27-28. And Abraham Kept God's commandments Gen 26:5 Proof they were in force long before the OC and NC God gives the law. Transgression of it is sin 1john 3:4 and the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
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