One of the most frustrating parts of my experience as a former member/associate/victim of two Armstrong Church of God organizations (Worldwide and CGI) is the condescending attitude of friends and family members who still belong to one of the splinters. "You shouldn't put much stock in anything he has to say - he's been hurt!"You'll have to overlook him!
"Everything he says is based on emotion!" "His experiences have made him bitter and clouded his objectivity!" or (my favorite) "He probably never was a real Christian anyway because he's gay!"
To me, that's like saying you shouldn't listen to what that Jew has to say about the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis) because he spent some time in a concentration camp. "His views are twisted by the suffering he endured there!" "He can't comment objectively on the party's policies and philosophies because he is bitter over what he experienced at the hands of some overzealous individuals!" "Just because some bad things happened to a few people, you can't condemn the whole organization!"
To me, that's like saying you shouldn't listen to what that Jew has to say about the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis) because he spent some time in a concentration camp. "His views are twisted by the suffering he endured there!" "He can't comment objectively on the party's policies and philosophies because he is bitter over what he experienced at the hands of some overzealous individuals!" "Just because some bad things happened to a few people, you can't condemn the whole organization!"
Lonnie Hendrix
47 comments:
"Like I said, I call BULLSHIT! (or is that just more proof that I'm overly emotional about all of this?)"
YES IT IS Lonnie!
However getting to know you through your blogs and comments over an extended period of time to me you are a pretty decent, excquisite, capable of balanced conversation and analysis, rational, emotional specimen of the human race.
At times you rage nonsensical, but you have also exposed yourself as firmly rooted in ancient values, even akin to yin and yang now and then despite your leanings toward the roman and may I say as a pun greek republics.
nck
You know, Lonnie, that condescending attitude is why I never felt comfortable in the presence of relatives who were still in the church. I mean, how could any self-respecting person remain in the presence of people who believed that you were either deceived, or in the bonds of Satan, even if you knew that the condescending ones were the weirdos, the scammed, and the deceived. Just because they don't say it, doesn't mean they aren't thinking it. You know that the minute you walk into a room with them.
I have to remember, though, it's not just me that they look down their noses at. It's everyone. They've cut themselves off from humanity, from everyone that's not a part of their little elitist groups, and honestly? When outsiders aren't around to look down upon, they find reason to look down upon one another. When it is part of one's learned behavior to look down upon anyone at all, it becomes an automatic reaction that one cannot turn on or off at will or on command. And, they certainly didn't get that attitude or behavioral pattern from Jesus. That's part of the reason that years ago, I coined the portmanteau "HWAcaca". It is Armstrongite bullshit, Herbal caca de toro.
BB
Hitting nails on heads Lonnie. Nicely spoken and to the point.
Several responses erupt on observations about the WCG experience we ALL have had, no matter where one felt they found themselves in the pecking order.
You hit the first one squarely on the head. "Oh you're just bitter" or as some feel, you're not angry at God. You're just angry at a church experience." This is usually followed with a suggestion you come to where these folk are now and all will be well.
Then there is the opposite. "Oh you're just better and angry at God" Usually followed by appeals to scripture such as "My ways are not your ways saith the Eternal", "The fool has said in his heart there is no God" and "There is a way that seems right unto a man but...." and so on. Personally I find it difficult to be angry at that which I can't prove is listening or cares if it is.
Also, the more anonymous one can be, the more rancorous they be in expressing themselves because you can't connect an actual church, minister or experience to the person and maybe understand their experience better. If someone told me their minister was Mr So and So and I knew them, I'd have a better understanding of what they might have experienced.
The first people, kids actually, I ever baptized ( I was a kid too) went on to be ministerial couple under Dave Pack and then Gerald Weston. It broke them in many ways as one could imagine. Chris died this past month way too young seemingly , to me, searching for a place and career in life to be the kind and caring person he was and could not find an outlet for it in the toxic place he ended up in WCG. Just my view of him over the years.
I get to enjoy the added benefit of being one of "them", a Ministurd and of course having lived in an ivory tower even if I didn't know it and all sorts of nonsense as if somehow I became a pastor to exploit, torture and control people and make a ton of money doing it. I like your phrase "I call bullshit" lol. People who believe they know my motives, hopes, sensitivities, personality and perspectives better than I do myself will lecture and condemn as they project whatever experiences they have had with other pastors on to me. Their real problem and the people they really need to address are not here to confront so , as a symbol of all that, evidently I will do.
The fact is that you can't forgive an organization. You have to forgive people or the pain and such goes on and on. Forgiving the living is difficult or at least talking it out can be. Forgiving the dead seems impossible but nonetheless ultimately important.
Expressing this observation of yours in this posting runs a huge risk of the "get over it" response and anger. Many don't really want to get over it. Getting over it can be a lifetime challenge or take just a short time depending on one's view of live and learn and accepting responsibility for the decisions they made, wise or foolish, along the way.
con't
Personally, I could not be where I now am, which I like, had I not been where I was, which I regret and thing about "wasted time" which I suspect was not wasted at all. In hindsight I see many other paths I could have taken. Some would have made me much better off. Some might have gotten me killed long ago. I have ceased arguing with myself about good or bad choices. They were just choices and I don't judge them anymore.
Sometimes in life there is NOTHING left to do but have a good laugh comes to mind sometimes as well. While not very funny at times, it might sometimes need to be viewed that way to be able to move on, lighten up and live. As noted in the past, I have boiled the Big Ten down to four. LIVE, LAUGH, LOVE and Hurry! :)
Much to say on this topic and one that will bring a huge variety of reactions and responses
Anyway, let the rancor of "oh just get over it" begin! I'm with you Lonnie. For the sake of one's own life and good mental health, live and learn on this an all hurtful experiences beats live and burn.
And too Lonnie, some feel better about themselves if they can diminish others or invalidate their own experiences compared to theirs. It's just how we all can be at times. It is why personal authenticity is important to me. It is why I share openly my own experiences in WCG as both member and especially Pastor, muck ups and all.
The "you were never converted" is an interesting one because, in my own case, I agree. I never really understood what was suppose to change in me. I was 19 when baptized and hadn't even come into myself yet! I felt nothing special at baptism. I think I sincerely "repented" but it was generic as I had not lived a life of high crimes and misdemeanors yet. That came after I was in the ministry finding out what Paul meant in Romans 7:15-20. This is the Paul I could identify with! Other Paul stuff not so much! lol. And the truth is, I didn't see a lot of change as in "lead by the Holy Spirit", or "Deeply converted" in anyone, not in WCG and not in my growing up Presbyterian that was obvious some huge thing had happened to them from on High. People don't change much in their lives save for stopping things that might kill them and often does if they don't. But lots of people do that outside of religion as well.
Anyway, my experience with those who claim another was "never converted" has been being glad I wasn't if becoming like them was the goal.
I guess my idea of the Wonderful World Tomorrow is NOT to get stuck for all eternity with Right Wing Fundamentalists, Church of God lawmen and hall monitors, Pentecostals Southern Baptist, Televangelists, Jimmy, Tammy, Paula and Benny. I also don't want to hear "Holy, Holy, Holy" sung by the Angels, day and night FOREVER. (Rev 4:8, 7:11) It also bothers me that a Deity needs that much praise or else.
Ok, everyone else's turn :)
My thanks to Gary for posting this here and for using the quote by Mandela - you get it! Mandela was free when he walked out of that door, but he worked against the system that had imprisoned him for the rest of his life. He forgave individuals but sought to dismantle what they had created and sustained. And he believed that his freedom had to be used to heal old wounds and make things better for the generations that would follow him.
Some of the reactions which I've received to this post are typical of what Dennis described in his comment. Yes, many of the folks that I knew in the Worldwide and International organizations were/are fine people - not disputing that! But I think about what Jesus was reported to have said about bad trees producing good fruit. How likely do you think it is that a bad person produced a good theology? You and I may not be racists, but can't you see that the way that Anglo-Israelism was promulgated and taught by Herbie was inherently racist? Yes, there were some rotten eggs in the fold, but the theology which underpinned the whole thing was very flawed!
As Dennis suggest in his comment, I've made my peace with what I experienced, and I continue to move forward. And I truly believe that I couldn't be where I'm at today (in a good place) without having experienced the hurt, pain and rejection of my former affiliation. And, hopefully, others will understand our impulse/need to warn off others from making the same mistakes that we did - our desire to ensure that future generations are not infected with this destructive nonsense.
-Lonnie
I can relate to this. I grew up in WWCG and got married the second time in the church as well. I left for good in 95. My husband left in 99 or so, he didn't agree with GCI's take on grace so he left. After he joined up with RCG a few years ago, I found comments he had made to others that I, his wife, just couldn't understand things and it probably wasn't "my time". I never knew he could be so condescending and it was extremely hurtful to know he saw me that way. I have never looked at him the same since. I know, for me, that I have the help I need, when I need it and I don't have to go to some church somewhere to get it.
oh man talk about apples and oranges!
over the years I've had associations with homosexuals which included discussions on a variety of topics and found, without exception, their take on the world is skewed (I guess that's a good way to put it)....they tend to live in their own reality, having difficulty seeing things as they truly are.
now, that is a generalization and there very well might be some that are not as bad as I have experienced....but I've never run into them.
Dennis, some of what you wrote [[…You have to forgive people or the pain and such goes on and on. Forgiving the living is difficult or at least talking it out can be. Forgiving the dead seems impossible but nonetheless ultimately important...
...The "you were never converted" is an interesting one because, in my own case, I agree. I never really understood what was suppose to change in me. I was 19 when baptized and hadn't even come into myself yet! I felt nothing special at baptism. I think I sincerely "repented" but it was generic as I had not lived a life of high crimes and misdemeanors yet. That came after I was in the ministry finding out what Paul meant in Romans 7:15-20. This is the Paul I could identify with! Other Paul stuff not so much! lol. And the truth is, I didn't see a lot of change as in "lead by the Holy Spirit", or "Deeply converted" in anyone, not in WCG and not in my growing up Presbyterian that was obvious some huge thing had happened to them from on High. People don't change much in their lives save for stopping things that might kill them and often does if they don't. But lots of people do that outside of religion as well...]] to Lonnie caught my eye!
******
Yes, many hirelings have expressed to us the need to repent, but rarely explain how to do it? Repent/change what? Why? How? And the importance of forgiveness is as you said; it's important.
I notice that people remaining within whatever organization they are in tend to, generally, look down on (judge/blame) others who leave, as if they are some oddball sinner, and not like themSELVES (also a sinner: sin is sin!). Such is life. Maybe it is just a form of SELF-righteousness, and SELF-deception.
Jesus and Stephen, respectively, both had reason (Eph 6:12?, among other possible reasons) for saying the following, in the face of those who looked down upon them:
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John
“You'll have to overlook him...he was never converted and was never a real Christian”
If you were never converted and were never a real Christian, then according to the WCG you will rise up in the Second Resurrection along with the other homosexuals from Sodom and Gomorrah and get your first real chance to repent and be saved.
If you were converted and were a real Christian but have now gone openly and proudly homosexual, then according to the WCG you will rise up in a Third Resurrection to be burned up and snuffed out forever.
If the WCG was right about this, then you should probably be hoping that you were never converted and were never a real Christian.
Back in WCG days, everyone was supposedly truly converted. Now, however, many are talking about how most people in the WCG were never truly converted after all. They sure hope that is the case.
All COG groups "look down" on one another and judge each other. Even within a COG group there is the "In Crowd" and the "commoner".
Of all of these, the one that seems the most strange is the COGWA - UNITED judgements. To me , an outsider, I still cant figure out what are the two differences between the two groups are in practicality, other than who gets to play "King of the Hill".
I enjoy the fact that the "Sardis Church", aka The Church of God Seventh Day, lives on, is growing, and is quite "alive", when it was judged to be dead, ..."you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead”
Heck, even the Adventists have 17 Million now around the world (and growing) , including 1 million here in the USA
Seems that this "Sardis" nomenclature applies to COGWA, UCG, LCG, PACK, FLURRY, ETC, more than anywhere else in the Sabbath movements.
Someone said: "If you were never converted and were never a real Christian, then according to the WCG you will rise up in the Second Resurrection along with the other homosexuals from Sodom and Gomorrah and get your first real chance to repent and be saved'
The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexuals. No entire town in the Middle East back in the Bronze age, as today, consisted of all homosexual men or women. The tale of Sodom is a middle eastern hospitality story. I will spare us all the explanation, again as has been done over the years but you can find it here in
Getting Sodom Straight
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2011/09/getting-sodom-straight.html
Not worry Lonnie. No Lake of Fire for anyone as far as I can tell though I am sure someone will remind me how I will change my mind when I get thrown in it lol Lakes of Fire and the torments of Hell, either way, are terror tales designed by the author to assert control through fear, guilt and shame of the wee people.
Dennis
The holy, holy, holy etc is said by living creatures rather than angels. The reason given is that 'for you created all things.' So it's not charity or unjustified. It's constantly affirmed because of the immoral desire of exalting oneself over God. Satan and his followers excel at this. Satan attacking Christ's self image with his frequent 'if you're the son of God.' is another example of the importance of a accurate self image. The universes stability rests on its inhabitants revering Gods throne. The alternative is Stalin, Hitler, Marx and the SJWs that are ruining all these Hollywood franchises and taking away our plastic straws.
John said: "Yes, many hirelings have expressed to us the need to repent, but rarely explain how to do it."
The Bible is not real clear on what it all is either John. It mostly says just do it and turn our inherent "vanity, jealousy, lust and greed", which I don't find to be the basic template of most I know, into something sweeter and more swoozy. It's a big "I'm so sorry" that we feel I suppose towards the perfect God who is offended at the sins of we as less than nothing and worms.
Best I can tell is that we need to...
Call ourselves names and use words like the prophets and Paul did about how useless they were or the lowest of the low.
Wail and moan, groan and fast ourselves into submission to prove our sorriness to God who enjoys it when his amoeba on earth are hungry with a headache.
Never, ever, ever do anything like that or be like that again ever or out you go from church and in you go to perdition. Serial sorriness is strictly forbidden.
Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is somewhat of a "what does that mean?" as well or you will NEVER be forgiven, no not in this life or the next. So much for forgiveness and unconditional love on the part of the Deity.
Do as one says to do and not as one does themselves. Give the Deity and Son a pass when they don't do as they said either. Example: Moses brings the orders down from the mountain not to murder or kill (each other I assume because it didn't seem to apply to the nations that got in their way) and then orders every man to kill his neighbor to the tune of about 3000 dead for panicking when Moses didn't come home from the mountain after a very long time and made a calf, as in days of yore, for comfort in stressful times.
and so on.
And too, I was not a hireling anymore than you were, as a member, a groupie.
Dennis
So it's OK to break the ten commandments if it gives one 'comfort in stressful times.'
Why aren't I surprised that you said that?
Dennis “The Spiritual Menace” Diehl at 7:59 AM said...“The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexuals. No entire town in the Middle East back in the Bronze age, as today, consisted of all homosexual men or women. The tale of Sodom is a middle eastern hospitality story. I will spare us all the explanation, again as has been done over the years but you can find it here in Getting Sodom Straight”
You can get the whole story straight from the Bible in Genesis 18:16 – 19:30.
Tonto at 7:55 AM said...“Of all of these, the one that seems the most strange is the COGWA - UNITED judgements. To me , an outsider, I still cant figure out what are the two differences between the two groups are in practicality, other than who gets to play 'King of the Hill'.”
As requested, here are the TWO differences:
ONE (as you noticed):
UCG is led by the former Tkach goon Victor Kubik.
COGWA, on the other hand, is led by Jim Franks.
TWO (the unknown difference):
UCG holds its Winter Family X-mass Weekend at the Great Wolf Lodge in Mason, OH.
COGWA, in sharp contrast, holds its Winter Family X-mass Weekend at the The Galt House Hotel and Conference Center in Louisville, KY.
Notice that COGWA's WFXW is held at a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LOCATION than the UCG's WFXW!!!
THREE (bonus difference):
The so-called UCG is continually splitting and splintering and has been in decline from its very beginning.
COGWA is still holding steady so far and has not yet begun to decline even after nine whole years.
FOUR (additional bonus difference):
UCG tries never ever to mention HWA or the WCG in its official literature for the public.
COGWA did once mention HWA and the WCG in its official literature for the public.
FIVE (even more differences[?]):
UCG is full of unrepentant, unconverted, unbelievers behaving very badly.
COGWA is full of...well...okay...let's not go there.
Anonymous said...
Dennis
So it's OK to break the ten commandments if it gives one 'comfort in stressful times.'
Why aren't I surprised that you said that?
You obviously missed the observation of Moses getting the Big Ten, one of which was "you shall not kill" then ordering the people to kill their neighbors who simply wanted to go on with what was familiar to them in Egypt believing that Moses was either dead by then or had abandoned them. Besides. The command to have no other Gods before me goes like this in the original context:
You shall not bring any other gods (which were plentiful in those days of beliefs in gods, plural) before me. (WHY?) Because I, the Lord, YOUR God, am a jealous God."
In other words bringing other gods into the picture, which all believed in just as much as in El or YHVH, made El feel bad so please don't do it.
So yes, people don't always obey the Hebrew version of a god when it fails to deliver and their comfort level for hundreds of years had been other worship practices.
ANd yes, you can expect me to say that because it's the content and context of the tale.
Also, " Anonymous said... "You can get the whole story straight from the Bible in Genesis 18:16 – 19:30."
Actually you can't. It helps to know the cultural context and not filter Bible tales through Western eyes.
Here is another part of the story you think is only spoken enough about to understand in Genesis.
"Ezekiel 16:49-50 New International Version (NIV)
49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
A town full of gay men and boys does not seem to be on the list. Your "whole story" is not in Genesis. And any critical biblical scholar will tell you that as well.
For pronouncing all of his not that long ago creation very good, it all seems to have fallen apart in a mere 19 chapters of the first book. Somehow it seems strange that God would have to say "whoa...I didn't see that coming!" By chapter 7 he had to drown most all of them and by 11 they had regrouped and needed to have their language confused and scattered because they were getting too smart for God's own good. What a great story! :) Sounds like humans became a problem to the gods when they figured out the knowledge of good and evil and started using it to advance themselves instead of just being bots and worker bees to the gods.
Thanks for the kind words, nck. And Dennis is right about Sodom. It is part of the hospitality genre of stories. I am not familiar with any gay cities (sorry to disappoint you, San Francisco is mostly straight), and I don't remember reading about any gay cities in the past. The notion that a city could be gay or straight is ABSURD!
Dennis, I don't believe I'm going to be in any Lake of Fire - I believe that I will be with God because of what Jesus Christ has done for me. And thank God that God decides who will be welcomed into "his" kingdom and not some of the folks posting here. I'm afraid if it was up to some of these folks the Lake of Fire would look more like Dante's version of Hell! I've said it before: If only a few folks get saved, then God's plan of salvation should be judged an abysmal failure by almost any reasonable standard!
We humans do love to put ourselves up on pedestals and condemn others don't we?
"The tale of Sodom is a middle eastern hospitality story."
what a crock....taken straight from the LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ....
that being said, homosexuals are not condemned at this time...
when they are resurrected after the millennium they will have clear minds, not clouded by a rebellious spirit, or birth defect of the brain, or whatever causes their condition.....they will have an opportunity for salvation, just as the rest of us.
if they choose the other route, well, it'll be their choice, and they'll have plenty of company as they see the flames approaching.
it'll all be over in a flash.
Byker Bob,
No they didn't get it from Jesus, but they think they did. They firmly believe that God and "His Way" need defending (God's apparently too puny to do that for himself!). HWAcaca probably is more user friendly for the Pharisees, calling it BS is a little too real world. You're right about the discomfort in being around folks who still belong, but what's even worse is seeing someone you love accept HWAcaca in the present!
Dennis “The Spiritual Menace” Diehl at 10:19 AM said...“Your 'whole story' is not in Genesis. And any critical biblical scholar will tell you that as well.”
I stand sort of corrected. You are technically right about that one little point. Ezekiel does add to the story in Genesis. One must always look through the entire Bible to get all the relevant information about a matter--“here a little and there a little”--and put all the pieces of the puzzle together properly, as you have so clearly demonstrated and reminded everyone.
DennisCDiehl,
The account in Ezekiel confirms the account in Genesis.
“They were haughty [LGBT pride] and did detestable things [homosexual rape of strangers] before me.”
A city full of homosexual men and boys definitely does seem to be on the list.
Anonymous said...
Dennis “The Spiritual Menace” Diehl at 10:19 AM said...“Your 'whole story' is not in Genesis. And any critical biblical scholar will tell you that as well.”
I stand sort of corrected. You are technically right about that one little point. Ezekiel does add to the story in Genesis. One must always look through the entire Bible to get all the relevant information about a matter--“here a little and there a little”--and put all the pieces of the puzzle together properly, as you have so clearly demonstrated and reminded everyone."
Dare I remind you that "here a little, there a little" was terribly and inaccurately applied to how to study the Bible by WCG/HWA and company?
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/search?q=diehl+here+a+little+there+a+little
Hard for you to say the words "You are technically right about that one little point" isn't it. I can almost feel the pain. but it helps to use the words "technically" and "little" to ease the pain I know :)
" Anonymous said...
DennisCDiehl,
The account in Ezekiel confirms the account in Genesis.
“They were haughty [LGBT pride] and did detestable things [homosexual rape of strangers] before me.”
A city full of homosexual men and boys definitely does seem to be on the list."
You have an interesting way proving this to your satisfaction. :) Lot seemed unaware of the gay nature of the intruders.
New International Version
"Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
It's in context a plainly stated hospitality tale and Lot forgot that a whole gay town of men and boys would not be interested in his virgin daughters just for fun. I imagine dinner that night at the family table was interesting. Mrs Lot: "So tell me Lot, would you like to explain that offer you made to the guys to us?" lol.
In that culture and some still today, you pretended to or actually raped strangers that might be a threat to your clan or town to dominate them and put them in their place as mere women. Repulsive behavior but to know or rape them was to demean them and warn them should they be spies or have the town's less than best interests in mind.
It's not a tale about gay men wanting to rape Angels for fun because they were all gay. I bet you didn't read the article on Keeping Sodom Straight either...
Miller Jones noted: "We humans do love to put ourselves up on pedestals and condemn others don't we?"
Yes we do. I suppose it's somewhat of a shallow survival tactic but not a real or helpful one. Humans on pedestals is like elevating an amoeba on a grain of sand. :)
Anal rape as threatened in the story of Lot is not an act of same-sex affection, or, fundamentally, even an erotic act. It is a demonstration of dominance, pure and simple. Probably a trait we share with at least a few other mammals; I have seen male dogs dominate others lower on the kennel hierarchy that way--dogs they not only had no affection for, but actively disliked. See a human example fictionalized in James Dickey's *Deliverance.*
It is used in the story of Sodom to illustrate how extreme that city's violation of hospitality obligations is.
What constantly amazes me is the sheer number of topics or things that are totally irrelevant, but that we constantly discuss only because the purveyors of Armstrongism have redefined and added great importance to them. It is not as if we need most of them in order to live. Somebody made a federal out of them for the purpose of creating leverage. They are part of the "gnosticism", the arcane insider culture. We can surely see and appreciate the many negative ways in which all of the shibboleths in the above article continue to impact anyone with the slightest smattering of experience in the Armstrong movement.
The good news is that so many have broken free, and have managed to elevate themselves from the realm of the pathetic. And that's what a fading empire that might have had as many as 100,000 people at its peak is. Really pathetic.
BB
Anonymous December 10, 2019 at 7:16 AM said...
If you were never converted and were never a real Christian, then according to the WCG you will rise up in the Second Resurrection along with the other homosexuals from Sodom and Gomorrah and get your first real chance to repent and be saved.
If you were converted and were a real Christian but have now gone openly and proudly homosexual, then according to the WCG you will rise up in a Third Resurrection to be burned up and snuffed out forever.
The idea of three resurrections as taught by Armstrong and his followers is in fact scripturally false. There are only two resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The first resurrection, “resurrection of the just” or “resurrection of life” comprised of the saints and then the second resurrection, “resurrection of damnation,” “resurrection of the unjust” or Great White Throne Judgement (Lk 14:14; Jn 5:29; Acts 24:15; Heb 11:35; Rev 20:12-15). There is no third resurrection.
DennisCDiehl December 10, 2019 at 7:59 AM said...
The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexuals. No entire town in the Middle East back in the Bronze age, as today, consisted of all homosexual men or women. The tale of Sodom is a middle eastern hospitality story.
DennisCDiehl December 10, 2019 at 10:19 AM said...
Here is another part of the story you think is only spoken enough about to understand in Genesis.
"Ezekiel 16:49-50 New International Version (NIV)
49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
A town full of gay men and boys does not seem to be on the list. Your "whole story" is not in Genesis. And any critical biblical scholar will tell you that as well.
The Bible doesn’t state all the men or women in Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexual Dennis. You’re creating a straw man by this statement. Obviously there was a large percentage of men and women in these cities who weren’t heterosexual just like there is in many cities across the West today.
Also, Ezekiel 16:50 states they were also guilty of “abomination,” which is the same Hebrew word (8441 tow ebah) used in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to describe same-sex acts.
A parallel I would draw attention to is Judges 19:22-25 where same-sex behavior is intended by the mob, but instead they eventually accept the Levite’s concubine and gang rape her since to the “old man,” under whose roof the Levite and his concubine were guests, their intended same-sex acts against the Levite man were considered to be “wicked” (Hebrew 7489 used in Genesis 19:9), “folly” and “vile” (Hebrew 5039).
1.22 AM
There has to be three, not two resurrections. First, the bride of Christ. Second, those who have died over the past 6 thousand years. These will be given probably about a hundred year human lifespan to qualify for the kingdom. This is the fair chance doctrine. Third, the second group together with those who lived during Christ's millennium, will be resurrected to face Gods judgment seat.
HWA (and James Malm) had it wrong when he claimed that those who die during the millennium will be converted to spirit beings immediately on death. There are no scriptures to back this up, and it flies in the face of those who qualify for the first resurrection being called blessed.
Anonymous December 12, 2019 at 8:16 PM said...
There has to be three, not two resurrections. First, the bride of Christ. Second, those who have died over the past 6 thousand years. These will be given probably about a hundred year human lifespan to qualify for the kingdom. This is the fair chance doctrine. Third, the second group together with those who lived during Christ's millennium, will be resurrected to face Gods judgment seat. HWA (and James Malm) had it wrong when he claimed that those who die during the millennium will be converted to spirit beings immediately on death. There are no scriptures to back this up, and it flies in the face of those who qualify for the first resurrection being called blessed.
I don't believe the Bible supports the Armstrongist notion of a third resurrection of the incorrigible wicked who are cast into the lake of fire. The aforementioned scriptural references at 1:22 AM is one principle reason i.e. the Bible only reveals two resurrections not three or more.
Another reason I no longer believe in a third resurrection to hellfire and damnation is the Bible refers to the lake of fire as "the second death" (Rev 2:11; 20:5-6, 14). Also, Paul states in Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." The latter verse refers to the divine sentence of physical death that hangs over all mankind just as Christ had to die "once for all" a physical death as a sin offering for us (cf. Hey 9:28; 10:10). Accordingly, we all naturally live one life and die once, be it in the past antediluvian (pre-flood) era or this "present evil" (post-flood) era or even in the future Millennial era. I believe that all who have lived physical lives during the Millennium and are saved at their end will be transformed from mortal to immortal beings not dissimilar to those saints Paul writes of who are still living at Christ's return (1 For 15:52). Those who aren't saved at the end of their lives in the Millennium will experience a physical death. All who rise in the second resurrection or Great White Throne Judgment period shall at its end either be granted immortality or experience the "second death" in the lake of fire (Mt 10:15; 11:22-24; 12:36-37, 41-42; Mk 6:11; Lk 10:12-15; 11:31-32).
Thus, if there were three resurrections as Armstrong falsely taught then it would contradict Holy Scripture since it would mean those who rise in the second resurrection after experiencing a physical life and death once before in the pre-flood, post-flood or Millennial eras, but during the second resurrection or Great White Throne Judgment period reject salvation through Christ would then supposedly experience a second death at its end only to rise a third time in a supposed third resurrection to supposedly die a third and final time. But, there is nothing, however, in the Bible about a "third resurrection" or "third death." Such a doctrine contradicts Holy Scripture (e.g. two resurrections, Hebrews 9:27 re man dying once and then judgment, lake of fire is "second death," etc.) and is, therefore, according to my research and understanding false.
Dennis, December 10, 2019 at 8:12 AM, wrote:
******
"...John said: "Yes, many hirelings have expressed to us the need to repent, but rarely explain how to do it."
The Bible is not real clear on what it all is either John. It mostly says just do it and turn our inherent "vanity, jealousy, lust and greed"...into something sweeter and more swoozy...and so on.
And too, I was not a hireling anymore than you were, as a member, a groupie..."
******
Dennis, to be a hireling seems to have a negative connotation to it, but it just means basically a person who serves for hire. For example, you were a hireling to someone who signed the check you received when you were a minister associated with the Worldwide Church of God.
Jesus Christ was aware of hirelings and He made mention of some who did not really care for the "sheep," and proved it by their actions with abandoning the sheep...and probably doing a number of other "not so nice" things to people.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
A hireling, as a denotation, is just a person who serves for hire.
It is not a derogatory, or negative, word, but there surely have been times when hirelings did do bad/evil things. You appear, based upon things you have written, to have been a WCG hireling who was sincerely striving to properly serve others.
John
Miller Jones, December 10, 2019 at 1:08 PM, said:
******
"...Thanks for the kind words, nck. And Dennis is right about Sodom. It is part of the hospitality genre of stories. I am not familiar with any gay cities (sorry to disappoint you, San Francisco is mostly straight), and I don't remember reading about any gay cities in the past. The notion that a city could be gay or straight is ABSURD!
Dennis, I don't believe I'm going to be in any Lake of Fire - I believe that I will be with God because of what Jesus Christ has done for me...I've said it before: If only a few folks get saved, then God's plan of salvation should be judged an abysmal failure by almost any reasonable standard!"
******
Miller, excellent message to believe in God's love whereby God (who gave His Son), by the power of His Spirit, did through His Son Jesus Christ (who gave His life) for human beings so that they would not die and remain dead forever.
We know who will go to the lake of fire:
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
The Apostle Paul encouraged us when he wrote:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
Is there some reason God needs to judge human beings?
John 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"
And Jesus Christ said:
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." John 8:15
God's grace and God's mercy has its place, doesn't it?
2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
Before the world began?
Time will tell...
John
12.27 AM
At the end of Christ's millennium rule, billions who died in ignorance will be resurrected to human life and given their chance of salvation. This is the second resurrection. After about a hundred years, Satan will be unleashed, creating another war in which billions will die. These dead people will appear before Gods judgment seat. This is the third resurrection. God grants them the dignity of hearing their sentence before destroying those who failed to qualify for salvation. This is the third resurrection. Otherwise the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' would not make sense.
Anonymous December 13, 2019 at 7:38 AM said...
At the end of Christ's millennium rule, billions who died in ignorance will be resurrected to human life and given their chance of salvation. This is the second resurrection. After about a hundred years, Satan will be unleashed, creating another war in which billions will die. These dead people will appear before Gods judgment seat. This is the third resurrection. God grants them the dignity of hearing their sentence before destroying those who failed to qualify for salvation. This is the third resurrection. Otherwise the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' would not make sense.
I agree with your first two sentences.
The rest of your paragraph I have to respectfully disagree. I follow the outline the apostle John gives in Revelation 20 thus:
1) Christ’s Second Coming and the first resurrection;
2) Satan’s incarceration in the abyss;
3) The Millennial rule of Christ and the saints;
4) Satan’s release at the end of the Millennium and global deception leading to the Gog and Magog rebellion and their deaths;
5) Satan cast into the lake of fire;
6) The second resurrection and Great White Throne Judgment period;
7) Finally, death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire too.
3.27 PM
The dry bone vision in Ezekiel 37:1-14, describes the physical resurrection of the house of Israel. Since the gentile nations are grafted to Israel, this vision represents the estimated 10 billion humans who have ever lived, being brought back to human life. How can God judge these people if most never knew the truth? God destroyed many of these nations in the OT because they became vile. So how can God let them into
His kingdom as they are?
The whole point of releasing Satan at the end of the millennium is to force these billions off the fence, and choose between Gods or Satan's way. This is similar to today's world situation. Otherwise there is no point to this WW 4.
7:38 is a mixture of cog and sda teaching.
7:38 you just described a "third death", nowhere taught in the bible.
Anon, December 11, 2019 at 1:22 AM, wrote:
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"...The idea of three resurrections as taught by Armstrong and his followers is in fact scripturally false. There are only two resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The first resurrection, “resurrection of the just” or “resurrection of life” comprised of the saints and then the second resurrection, “resurrection of damnation,” “resurrection of the unjust” or Great White Throne Judgement (Lk 14:14; Jn 5:29; Acts 24:15; Heb 11:35; Rev 20:12-15). There is no third resurrection..."
******
Yes, HWA taught 3 resurrections, but he also advised everyone with the following: "Don't believe me; believe your Bible."
The Bible only reveals 2 resurrections. Many during HWA's lifetime, and numerous xcogs to today, did/do not follow HWA's advice.
You mentioned: "...the second resurrection, “resurrection of damnation,” “resurrection of the unjust” or Great White Throne Judgement (...Jn 5:29; Acts 24:15..."
John 5:29 says: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Acts 24:15 says: "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
That second resurrection is not solely about damnation and the unjust. As John 5 and Acts 24 point out, that 2nd resurrection deals with both those just/unjust that have done good/evil, respectively.
Daniel 12 shows this:
:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt."
They all had died, and they all will awake at the same time.
Something else you may want to consider is Romans 6:23, which states:
"For the wages of sin [is] death;..."
Those who died, as had been appointed, and are resurrected paid those wages; they died!
Various parables in the Bible explain what happens in the lives of those who were just/unjust (in their former lives) from the time of that second resurrection going forward in time.
Time will tell...
John
John
HWAs 'don't believe me, believe your bible, is what he taught his radio audience. Once in his church, it's 'believe me, or I'II boot you out of my church.'
Many here are (selectively) quoting scriptures, but ignoring fundamentals such as the fair chance doctrine, and Gods 'no more demons in the kingdom' policy.
3.27 PM. Your position appears to be the Protestant doctrine of universal salvation. This doctrine fails to explain Gods 5 thousand year policy of 'hands off,' and the bibles 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' thingy.
Anon, December 14, 2019 at 7:53 AM, said:
******
"...John
HWAs 'don't believe me, believe your bible, is what he taught his radio audience. Once in his church, it's 'believe me, or I'II boot you out of my church.'
Many here are (selectively) quoting scriptures, but ignoring fundamentals such as the fair chance doctrine, and Gods 'no more demons in the kingdom' policy..."
******
I first became associated with the WCG/HWA in 1968 and I don't recall HWA ever referring to WCG as "my church." His last book written, Mystery of the Ages, often referred to something called "God's Church.
We were admonished to "believe your bible." Unfortunately, many, myself included, did not follow that advice. We learned some milk of the Word and lots of "junk food," and many of us swallowed it hook, line and sinker. There was a lot of ignorance, and we were also told this: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30
You wrote that: "Many here are (selectively) quoting scriptures, but ignoring fundamentals such as the fair chance doctrine..."
Where in the bible did you find some fundamental "fair chance?" You made that up, didn't you? People do that with the phrase "second coming," while turning a blind eye to the fact that Jesus Christ came to earth the second time, a real "second coming," after He was murdered, was in a tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, was resurrected, went to visit His Father. He returned to earth, but for how long? Only about 40 days.
And "Gods 'no more demons in the kingdom' policy?" Well, at least that makes some sense, b/c we may read about them being thrust out sometime after that second resurrection of the unjust (and unjust) occurs:
"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out." Luke 13:28
And we know those cited individuals in Luke 13 along with God's prophets (including John the Baptist) were not in the 1st resurrection, but awake in the second resurrection. How do we know? We're told they received not the promise (Hebrews 11:13, :39, :8-10, :13, :17-21, :39).
Besides Satan was made without fear (Job 41) and made to be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2:12), and it will be in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 25:41, 46). Done deal!
Now, in HWA's booklet on Predestination, HWA used Matthew 25:41 and said human beings were included there, but that was "junk food." Scripture did not say that. Again, believe the Bible: not HWA.
John
John
You don't recall HWA calling the WCWG as 'my church.' Why mention this cosmetic wording. HWA called himself the Pastor General, and his name was mentioned by his ministers (in reverential tones) more often than Gods name. HWA made the church in his image. So yes, it was in substance 'his church.'
The term 'fair chance doctrine' is from an article in a now defunct journal that appeared on this blog regularly. I forget its name. The doctrine was attributed to Jehovah's Witnesses Charles Russell. HWA read it, and eventually accepted it as church truth.
We are told that resurrected Christian will meet Christ in the air, and set their feet on Mount Zion. This is you second coming rather than Christ's 40 day stay after His death.
Satan is not destroyed in the lake of fire. Ezekiel 28.18 states that God will create a internal fire ('a fire in the mist of thee') which will turn him to ash.
Anon, December 14, 2019 at 8:57 PM, said
******
"...John
You don't recall HWA calling the WCWG as 'my church.' Why mention this cosmetic wording. HWA called himself the Pastor General, and his name was mentioned by his ministers (in reverential tones) more often than Gods name. HWA made the church in his image. So yes, it was in substance 'his church.'
The term 'fair chance doctrine' is from an article in a now defunct journal that appeared on this blog regularly. I forget its name. The doctrine was attributed to Jehovah's Witnesses Charles Russell. HWA read it, and eventually accepted it as church truth.
We are told that resurrected Christian will meet Christ in the air, and set their feet on Mount Zion. This is you second coming rather than Christ's 40 day stay after His death.
Satan is not destroyed in the lake of fire. Ezekiel 28.18 states that God will create a internal fire ('a fire in the mist of thee') which will turn him to ash..."
******
So, the term "fair chance doctrine" was made up by somebody. Do you like that phrase? If yes, then snuggle right up to it. At least the 40 day period can be found in the Bible as a second coming. Will Christ return 3 times, 4 times, 5 times? Numerous verses state that Christ will be at His Father's right hand until all enemies are put down, and that won't occur until some time after Satan, an enemy, exits the pit.
Ezekiel 28:18 is true, but are you saying that Christ lied to us when He said the following? "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
Here's another reference to Satan: "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea." Isaiah 27:1
Did Isaiah lie to us too?
Of course, it helps to know that Satan dies twice, but it isn't coming back after that "second death;" although some more of the junk food received from HWA was that angelic spirit beings cannot die. On the other hand, HWA still told us to believe our Bibles: not hi.mSELF
John
John
Ezekiel 28.18, Matthew 25.41 and similar do not contradict each other, but rather compliment each other. It's called integration. I suggest you study this topic since many of your posts are a hodgepodge of ideas, lacking structure and integration.
'Are you saying that Christ lied when he said...' First it's not what Christ said, but rather your interpretation of what Christ said. Second, such a coercive ploy is cheating. since It attempts to bypass others right to evaluate your point of view, and see the world through their own eyes. Bad dog, bad dog.
Anon, December 15, 2019 at 6:31 PM, ... wrote:
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"...John
Ezekiel 28.18, Matthew 25.41 and similar do not contradict each other, but rather compliment each other. It's called integration. I suggest you study this topic since many of your posts are a hodgepodge of ideas, lacking structure and integration.
'Are you saying that Christ lied when he said...' First it's not what Christ said, but rather your interpretation of what Christ said. Second, such a coercive ploy is cheating. since It attempts to bypass others right to evaluate your point of view, and see the world through their own eyes. Bad dog, bad dog.
******
Anon, integration, is what you called that relationship between Ezek 28 and Matt 25? That was already integrated in my mind, but I didn't call it that.
Also, in Matthew 25:41 it was recorded that Christ said: "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" That was not an interpretation of mine. I simply read what Christ said; I believed it; that's it!
That is not some coercive ploy, or cheating. He said it; I believe it; that's it. No interpretation needed, and you are welcome to do whatever you want to with His words, even have another point of view.
Christ also said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Christ said what He meant, and meant what He said. Is there another point of view with those verses?
Paul in Romans 11:26-27 said: "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
Paul said what He meant, and meant what He said. Is there another point of view that changes any of those words? Well, I suppose there is if you look at Isaiah 45:17-25, but shall all Israel be saved, or not? It's another done deal!
Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 said: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Peter also said what He meant, and meant what He said. Is there another point of view? Will all come to repentance or not?
Did Peter or Paul have a different interpretation from that of John's following words?
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." I John 2:2
I read those words, which say what they mean, and mean what they say.
And yes, there are mistranslations of words in the Bible, too, etc.
The entire Bible so often looks like a hodgepodge of ideas, lacking structure and integration and yes, here a little and there a little.
Should God be accused of some huge coercive ploy, cheating, etc.?
You are welcome to not believe the words of Christ (or Paul, or Peter or John et al) if you wish and come with your own evaluation, words, phrases, with your own point of view, and see this world through your own eyes.
The Bible says we are right in our own eyes, and do what seems right, but regardless, the end result is the same for all of us, and you know what that end result is for each of us.
John
John
In Matthew 25.41, the 'everlasting fire' must be a one fire for humans and another fire for Satan and his demons. Ordinary fire can destroy humans, but not spirit beings. Hence the special fire in Ezekiel that God will use to destroy Satan and his demons.
This is what I mean by your personal interpretation. It might seem self evident to you, but others see the same scriptures differently.
Anon, December 16, 2019 at 8:47 PM, said:
******
"...John
In Matthew 25.41, the 'everlasting fire' must be a one fire for humans and another fire for Satan and his demons. Ordinary fire can destroy humans, but not spirit beings. Hence the special fire in Ezekiel that God will use to destroy Satan and his demons..."
******
Anon, Matthew 25:41 says: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
That everlasting fire is not for humans. The everlasting fire will have been prepared, as it says, "for the devil and his angels:" humans are not mentioned.
Who is on the left hand? Sheep? No! Goats? Yes!
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
The goats get burned up, however God does that, and the result is everlasting. There is no coming back from that fire. There is no coming back from the second death.
Or, to say the same thing in Ezekiel's words, inspired by God:
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more." Ezekiel 28:19
There is no coming back for the devil and his angels!
Good news for the sheep "on the right hand" as something else will have been prepared for them and that is mentioned in verse 34.
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
John
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