I have mixed emotions about this podcast, but it does illustrate how the old boy's network that runs so many of the Churches of God is irrelevant in their actions and completely out of touch with the younger members of the church. It takes the younger members of the church to start making a difference.
The podcast starts off by making a point that the Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, and Church of God Preaching the Kingdom are NOT representative of the broader Church of God community and they do not include them in the COG Network links and materials.
Her take on Dave Pack's new sermon series and failed prophecies is interesting in how he confuses everyone. This is also what started her down the path of leaving the cult.
Carisa's story is fascinating to hear.
I am interested in what your take is on this.
23 comments:
it is interesting that none of them feel a distinct tie to one specific COG, but attend where they want, when they want, though they claim to not be church hoppers. They have a home base where they serve and attend but are willing to visit other groups. Another reason the leadership of the COG's are out of touch with members' thoughts.
They're not? Coulda fooled me.
There are DIFFERENT so-called COG groups because there are DIFFERENT leaders with DIFFERENT teachings. They are NOT all the same.
David Pack is a vicious FALSE prophet and his RCG is a SATANIC imposter cult. They were sent AGAINST former WCG people, NOT to help former WCG people.
Russo, like many other younger Sabbatarians of all stripes are more relationship oriented than corporate organizational loyal.
Thus much more sanguine to the idea of fellowshipping across lines, and finding commonality rather than differences. The HWA concept that there is only ONE true organization has been transcended by many under age 40 people.
This applies even to younger Protestants and Catholics as well.
It's interesting that their beliefs can be reconciled with the WCG... but not really because they are just doing what they saw HWA do. HWA is the false prophet too. He predicted over 200 false prophecies. Perhaps RCG/PCG are more extreme than others, but it is still the same model used to lord it over the brethren and create spiritual imprisonment. Gerald Weston has said that he thinks these boys at CGF are native and misguided.
The people who seem to do best in an ACOG are those who violate some of the core traditions. I don't know where I might have seen a similar phenomenon amongst our politicians just recently, but HWA equated loyalty to himself as being loyalty to God. If you agreed with him and supported him, you were converted. If you disagreed or challenged him, you were in the bonds of Satan and on the way to the lake of fire. There was no middle ground.
A little over fifteen years ago, several individuals appeared on the blogs and forums stating that during their membership, they had never checked their brains at the door, had avoided abusing their children, didn't get themselves into financial difficulties over gun laps, and had held on to several doctrinal positions which they felt were supported by scripture, but differed with WCG teaching. And, they had the audacity to say that they had never felt oppressed by the ministry, didn't see any of the corruption all the rest of us had witnessed, and enjoyed good relationships with their extended families. Yet, they were still extremely loyal to the core doctrines of Armstrongism, and vociferously defended them against challenges raised by the rest of us. My feeling at the time was that these people had behaved as we were taught Laodiceans behave, and now they had the gall to come back yesrs later to chastise people who had tried to be Philadelphian for allowing the org to do our thinking for us! They had remade the church in their own image and had remained as members, while many of the rest of us had left!
I had come to the conclusion a long time ago that, like the Seventh Day Adventists before them, Armstrongites would become more mainstream with time. They would place less emphasis on prophecy, lighten up on the obsessive-compulsive and slavish Pharisaical obedience to every imagined detail of HWA's rediscovered (plagiarized) truths. And, they would keep the sabbath basically as a day of rest, and not a day of dos and don'ts. The podcast did not cause me to rethink all of the things that I now know about Armstrongism, but it did provide just a glimmer of hope that this generation is well on the way to a new, uncultic level. They realize that the extreme ACOGs are potentially dangerous, and over all, display a bad spirit, and they buck the "one true splinter" ethos that all the others project, opting instead for loving relationships that transcend group.
Not my cup of tea, but I respect the approach they have apparently very thoughtfully chosen.
I do not buy that the PCG and RCG are not representative of the COG movement. They are all cut from the same cloth. There's personality in everything, so there's bound to be some differences. But scratch the surface, and one finds the same mindsets. Some of these groups would be laying low in the competitive shrinking COG movement, but if provoked, the old WWCOG behaviors will come to the surface.
A simple reality test. Which group/s teach rights? That members have a right to be treated with dignity and respect? Or that God's social system is freedom (from others) rather than tyranny? Or better yet, point to a group that doesn't infantilize their members. They all mentally shrink their members to make them more controllable, even though it's cold blooded MURDER!!
Exactly !!! The cold reality that much of church leadership are out of touch with members thoughts is likely to be connected to how out of touch these leaders are with God. That's quite a comment to make and I don't type it lightly. But I feel strongly that is a root cause and a ongoing concern.
"Infantilize their members" - very well put. It is also obvious that the main function is guilting its members to give more and more money. I have noticed that every second coworker letter was a plead for more money. It surely appears that HWA did not 'get' his own message. If he did, he surely had a twisted mind, for he lived like a king and reigned over his little empire with great fear.
I can't help but wonder what Yahshua's words would be said unto him. Would it be 'You have already received your reward, depart from Me.'
Anonymous 8:30 wrote, "I had come to the conclusion a long time ago that, like the Seventh Day Adventists before them, Armstrongites would become more mainstream with time."
You can't make a blanket statement about that. The SDAs represent one branch of the overall Millerite movement. The Branch Davidians and the Armstrongists are other branches. At the overarching movement level, some Millerite factions became more mainstream and others became more extreme. The SDAs are an example of the former. We are all know of cults with long histories on the North American religious scene that cruise along happily cultic and still have nice momentum.
For any Armstrongist Splinter that gravitates toward the mainstream, something will have triggered a revision in its theology. Someone will have to gut up and say the Sabbath is not a requirement, along with parts of the Law of Moses, for salvation - a repetition of what Joe, Jr. did in 1995. Been there, done that. We know the outcome - more Splinters.
Splintering is a phenomenon that greatly increases the probability that Classical Armstrongism will survive. Splintering diversifies the risk of Armstrongism dying out. There will be revision and moderation in some Splinter groups but it is highly likely that there always be a cadre of traditional Armstrongists about somewhere singing "Count your blessings, Name them one by one..."
A powerful force that militates against revision is the pre-occupation with end-time prophecy. If you are hopping up and down and waving your arms with excitement over the end of the world you are not likely to think about the dimensions of your ill-conceived soteriology. Prophecy is the gimbel for Armstrongism.
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Anyone who REMEMBERS what the WCG under HWA had taught, and who KNOWS what the different so-called COG groups today teach, can see clearly that groups like the PCG and the RCG are satanic frauds. They are there to harm people, not to help people.
8:30 and 8:44,
Those are the two main takeaways I had also. The UCGs and COGWAs of the world don't lord it over as much because they cannot. They lord it over now more than 2012 and they still hearken back to the Armstrong glory years, but they know the market that would take the total abuse from Pack and Flurry are not quite the niche they have.
I too have marveled that all those that think they are so COGWA and UCG obedient today were less obedient to the principles (they today defend) than many that left. Of course, for so many in COGWA particularly, simply being primarily richer and ministers' kids and/or AC grads change the perspective of what WCG meant drastically. They really don't have a clue what WCG was for the majority.
Upon actually listening to the video, I hear Russo talking "the Church" and the new girl stating that she didn't know anything about the Bible when "called through interest in a young man and his family". Not surprisingly she got drawn in and said she would cancel anyone out that would suggest RCG was a cult. Glad she is out of that cult and hope shestays out of other cults such as Russo's group.
What Russo and West probably don't recognize in themselves is that they are totally tied into Herbert Armstrong's teachings. Speaking with some in the COGs they will say that they are not into Armstrong and don't think about him. BUT, the beliefs of the COGs cannot be reached from simply the Bible.
The COGs explicitly state that if you do not understand the Plan of God as taught by the COGs' belief in the meaning of the holy days then you are not called, period. Sorry, but you will not see that requirement or explicit teaching in the Bible. That and so much else is completely from Armstrong (though largely plagiarized). If you are in a COG, Armstrong is your primary teacher. Sorry.
Latest message from David C Pack is that Christ will come back Friday night or Saturday. He said that there can be no more messages if Christ does not come back. He will say that he overlooked a verse and now Christ will come back at the Feast of Trumpets. He will never admit he has no clue
Neo the second wrote
'Splintering is a phenomenon that greatly increases the probability that classical Armstrongisim will survive"
That's quite a bombshell to share so publicly NEO II. Esp when COGWA could read it for themselves.
Perhaps it goes a little way to explain the surprisingly complex devastation shown by some leaders in UCG in the aftermath of COGWA breaking away. It was a surprising reaction as the leaders who ended up in COGWA could never do anything right in the eyes of the remaining UCG elite. They were nit picked to death by their 'brothers' behind their backs for years.
Yet when they left, instead of being glad to see them go, the reaction of some was quite astonishing. Complete devastation and intense fury was displayed alot. The existence of COGWA was an horrendous thorn in some sides and they did not hide it.
I'd say it took some about 5 years to recover to at least be able hide their intense feelings publicly.
11:29:00 AM,
There certainly are some unclean and foul spirits in the UCG. Not very nice or sociable at all.
NeoDromos, you say "prophecy is the gimbel for Armstrongism." Sorry, the word "gimbel" is new to me. What does it mean?
Not nice to talk about the rebels from within the ministry like that 2:08. Don't put yourself down so much.
Mind games eh? Wasn't that all exposed many many years ago in the 80's? Roll eyes.
Several thoughts after a while longer to let this sink in. Ultimately, it is a snapshot in time. It could very well become a "before" picture to an "after" which follows deeper realization. For the three involved in the presentation, obviously it is a pleasant snapshot. Yet, how many people have come here to tell us that the reason why they remain in Armstrongism is largely due to the friendships which they have formed, and the fact that their families are involved? That can be a very powerful magnet for certain personality types. Obviously it is sufficient for many people. What about the deep thinkers, the loners? They would tend to need more.
I made an exception to normal habit pattern in that I actually watched the entire podcast. (The most I can last, usually, is about 5-10 minutes). What I was looking for was the passion which one would expect of someone who had experienced enlightenment, and by that I mean transformational enlightenment. Obviously, we have all witnessed the testimonies of those who have become convinced on an intellectual level of what they consider to be factual material of which they had been previously unaware. And, that is what I believe I saw here, as opposed to a spark or passion, the gleam in the eye which accompanies the very elusive, true, and pure enlightenment. Not that I myself have ever experienced that enlightenment either, but you really can't read the New Testament without the profound realization that those who had first person exposure to Jesus did indeed experience something totally unique. As the hymn goes, "Jesus gave me water, but it wasn't from the well!"
The ACOGs don't have this, and members can't even conceptualize the criteria by which such a phenomenon would be established. Armstrongism, as a spiritual philosophy, leaves one wanting. To realize this, one need only examine how it is sold to prospectives, and then resold to members on a weekly basis as they sit in church. It is sold negatively, and based on fear. It is practiced by time and energy consuming ritual. There is pride and a sense of elitism connected with continuing membership. Those who practice it believe they have found truth, but one gets the feeling that there is a vastly superior depth available somewhere, light which really illuminates without excuse or a need to explain away. If there were examples of this within Armstrongism, with all the fellowshipping we all did, we would have known about it. It would have taken over and self-perpetuated. It would have been the basis for the growth of the church, as it was amongst the first followers of Jesus. I may have missed this, but I didn't pick up on anything like this on the podcast, although I certainly do not doubt the sincerity of the three participants.
12:48,
Good comment. There has always been the feel of something important lacking in the cogs. The cogs are easy religion if you have a good job and income. Most in the cogs don’t work weekends as their job doesn’t require it or they are self employed. So sabbath and taking some days off each year is no problem. Good income (and after all tax write offs) makes a tithe off that pretty painless. If you are in ohio, texas, or North Carolina this allows for a built in social life.
Don’t eat pork, don’t give to charity as you’ve already tithed, don’t concern yourself with those outside your group, don’t concern yourself with your local community (the kingdom is coming!)
Easy Religion.
Just as an aside, how ridiculous is it that the cogs chafe at the idea of there being a current kingdom?
Their idea of the gospel is only Jesus’s return, that very few will accept the Gospel (firstfruits), thus the spreading of the gospel is almost entirely for the purpose of witness and warning so no one can say they didn’t have a chance. This relieves the cogs of any responsibility to be effective, the witness is enough. Easy Religion.
11:36:00 PM,
If you have an evil, lying, perverse spirit, go to the UCG. You will be welcomed in and supported there.
I remember sitting in services when Dave Pack quoted II Tim. 3:6. In the context of the end times and within the church itself, Dave said many of the church women would fulfill this verse. Being silly and laden with sins and led away with different lusts is not an encouraging conclusion to ones spiritual journey. But the apostle Pack spoke it and it was one more example of his gender disdain for those with the XX chromosomes.
The minister dealing with this young lady falls right in line with the apostle. The young lady stressed out with the massive build up and anticipation of the return of the Wadsworth christ is at home doing the Christian thing of preserving the life of a family member. In a moment of mental weakness - overwhelmed with massive bible studies and family infirmity she questions the apostle's interpretation and is labeled mentally unstable in need of help and demon possessed. In other words, a silly woman laden with sins being led away with different lusts - a fulfillment of prophecy and no longer welcome or needed in the church of God.
The Restored Church of God is only good at creating Marthas' out of their women. You know - "Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things" - that kind of Martha. The women are constantly worrying about taking care of their house, taking care of their husband and children properly. Worried about their appearance and mostly worried about if they are functioning properly in the Restored Church of God way.
Hopefully Russo has identified the one thing needed and the one thing that won't be taken away from her. That identification is a lot easier being out of the RCG but still hard while engrossed in the greater COGs.
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