At the same time, several themes emerged where members see opportunities for improvement:
- Congregational care and belonging show mixed results. Many feel loved and supported, while others feel less engaged or unsure how to connect.
- Biblical resources are valued, but some members desire more support during difficult personal trials.
- Weekly messages are appreciated but sometimes described as repetitive or lacking depth; there is room to elevate the delivery style and effectiveness of messages.
- Service and involvement remain areas of both strength and challenge. Many serve regularly, yet others want to serve but don’t know how to begin.
- Being a light in the community is an aspiration for many, but members desire clearer pathways and encouragement to do so.
UCG is still dragging around the exact same problem WCG had: the same handful of people do everything repeatedly while everyone else gets ignored. Offer to help? Crickets. No wonder people eventually withdraw.
When people withdraw, surprise—they get ignored even more, leading to charming responses like this. Cliques still reign supreme. The minister's inner circle of chosen pets still rule the roost, leaving the rest of the members on the periphery.Some described congregations where the same small group carries most of the responsibilities. Others noted that service is often associated only with visible tasks—speaking, leading music, organizing activities—rather than the broader, relational service Scripture describes.
A recurring theme was the longing to feel invited. Several comments reflected this sentiment: “I don’t feel like the Church gives me an opportunity to serve; I step out on my own and offer myself to anyone who needs it” and “There are brethren with talents who want to serve, but they are never asked.”
At the same time, those who have been serving for many years expressed feeling stretched thin. This creates a cycle where some are overloaded while others stand back, unsure how to join in.
UCG members apparently still have this crazy desire for deep spiritual conversations that aren't being met. In Armstrongism, this is hardly breaking news. Deep, meaningful spiritual conversations were never exactly encouraged. Members weren't supposed to gather in homes for honest discussion without a minister playing babysitter. The second a minister walks in, the real talk dies, honest questions get stifled, and everyone snaps back to script. Imagine a group doing a Bible study together without a single minister or official literature in sight—pure chaos, right?A large majority of respondents feel cared for and treated with Christian love in their congregations. Many described their local church as “family,” a refuge, and a source of strength.
Yet the comments also reveal a quieter reality: some members feel overlooked, lonely, or unsure how to break into established social circles. A number of respondents used words like “cliques,” “inner circle,” or “outsider” to describe their experience.
One comment captured this poignantly: “I have been here almost two years and only a few people even know my name.”
...many respondents expressed a desire for:
- Practical guidance for Christian living in a rapidly changing world
- More opportunities for meaningful spiritual conversations
Armstrongism has never been big on putting faith into action in our multicultural world. The world was always seen as sinful and out to "get" COG members. The ministry and leadership apparently thought members were so feeble-minded they'd bolt at the first exposure. You rarely saw a COG member volunteering at a homeless shelter or food bank—too risky.Some noted that fellowship can feel superficial, with members unsure how to discuss biblical topics or navigate differences of opinion peacefully. This is an area where congregations can continue to grow— creating environments where spiritual conversations feel natural, safe and enriching.
Members expressed a strong desire to be more active in their communities and to shine God’s light beyond the walls of the church. Younger adults in particular expressed interest in service projects, outreach and opportunities to work together in meaningful ways.
Many respondents noted that while personal example is important, coordinated congregational efforts could help members feel more confident and connected in this aspect of the Church’s mission.
The survey ended with this:
Sadly, for most of the church's existence, members have been viewed as little more than tithing units. Brethren, we need a new jet. We need a new auditorium. We need a college campus. We need new recording studios. We need a new magazine. We need a new web server.This year’s survey paints a picture of a deeply valued Church, but one with opportunities to grow stronger, be more connected and more welcoming.
The most consistent message across all comments is simple: people want to feel included. They want to serve. They want to belong. They want to grow. They want to feel wanted. And they want to help others grow.
These are not tasks assigned to a few—they are responsibilities shared by all of us. Each of us has the ability to notice someone standing alone, to invite someone into a conversation, to ask someone to help, or to offer help themselves. Service is not a checklist; it is a way of being with one another.
Members soon found out that no matter how much they gave, it was never enough. They thought they were serving. They thought that by serving, they belonged to something bigger than themselves. They wanted to feel wanted for more than their money. Sadly, the church has never looked at them as being needed. Most COG groups count their "members" as tithing units. Those are the real members; the rest are just stragglers mooching off the community.
Imagine, if you can, what today’s Churches of God would be like if they actually practiced 1st Century Christianity as they all claim to do. What a different world we would be living in.
55 comments:
They are also too impacted by the politics of America. It can be a poison.
If sermon time is reduced to two minutes, it will be less repetitive. Or just stay home.
People are a mess.
Member surveys. Genuine or simply window dressing. And giving the impression that something is being done why actually doing nothing. The old two steps forward and three steps backward lol. While the weightier matters are neglected, like the theology underlying the Armstrong movement, i:e BI etc etc. This survey will surely provide no change. For that may lead to a greater call for theological freedom from the Armstrong underpinnings. And endanger the already limited income for the ministry. Nothing to see here unfortunately.
They need to hire Pack to keep them on the edge of their seats with constant date setting.
Pervbert would be proud of them if could see them now.
I don't believe they can do anything to resolve this. When I read the works of Josephus years ago, one of the characteristics of his biographical summaries of historical figures was that it was almost high praise for him to state, "He made no innovations." In other words, per Josephus, goodness was defined by being static, as opposed to dynamic.
When you think of Armstrongites, what is their ideal world view-defining example? There are two basic main ones: 1) The time of Moses, and 2) The first century of Christianity. Armstrongites do not believe in the continued evolution of humans. They believe, instead, in degeneration with time. Unless some authority figure guides people compulsively and carefully, the human condition will worsen with time. That is a root paradigm for them. So one hears cliches such as "Recapture true values." "Tell the old, old story". "The faith once delivered." The effect is automatic. An organism which ceases to grow is in the process of dying. Hence, no innovation= no growth. Of course the sermons and practices will remain exactly as Herbert set in motion, and anything new which comes along is not new, it is automatically suspicious, and most likely the result of degeneracy. The approved pattern is to do the same things over and over again each and every day of your life. Don't look for new truth, look for greater depth to the old ones. Just don't get too original with that, because your vanity expressing itself in that way will get you into deep trouble!
This stagnant, "dead pool" approach to spirituality is not unique to the followers of Herbert W. Armstrong. To an extent, any group which believes they have arrived at "truth", and are the sole arbiters therof, will eventually lapse into this same pattern. It all becomes stale, and people whose questions accumulate will leave in search of answers.
As for this survey, what might the ministers really conclude? You can almost hear them whispering in unison, "Why, look at this! The liberals are trying to take over God's Church! This survey proves it!"
BB
Were he here he would be screaming out shaking his head and raising his voice and shaking his jowels and fists to warn the end is near and so is Petra, and that he has personal contacts in Jordan to ensure it all goes ahead.
In my ten year stay in the WWCG, I spent dozens of hours driving church members around in my car. When I had a car accident and needed a lift to services, members were offended that I so much as asked for a lift. The point in the article that only a few carry the church is very true. The constant serving talk in these groups is very misleading since most members are getters rather than givers. Plus, a minister can at whim throw a member out of the church, robbing that person of friendships developed over a decade or more. Based on a risk - benefit accounting, attending church isn't worth it.
And not forgetting, during my stay, it became obvious that some only attended services because it gave them access to members that they could exploit.
A sad but true story .I think one explanation might be members were so hard developing character, and meeting all demands placed on them by the Armstrong system, they didn't think to have time for such small things such as you refer to. Wishing all is going a lot better for you now.
BB Stated:
“When you think of Armstrongites, what is their ideal world view-defining example? There are two basic main ones: 1) The time of Moses, and 2) The first century of Christianity. “ Precisely!!!
And I would add, it’s the first century Christianity outside of Paul’s letters to the gentiles.
What's so bad about any group conducting a healthy self-exam toward improvement?
Why poke fun at UCG for noticing they could use some helpful pep talk or perk things up?
"The minister's inner circle of chosen pets still rule the roost" — definitely true, not just in UCG. And the way UCG and other COGs conduct their Sabbath meetings, it is strictly a small group of men who do everything as the minister does not trust others, and wants to lecture everyone for 1 to 2 hours on his favourite subject which only sends several (or most) of the congregation to sleep.
A better approach would be to have a meeting like in the NT church — everyone can contribute and no one hogs the whole meeting unless everyone else wants them to give a sermon.
Ministers should serve, and members should serve without being afraid of being told off by the minister.
The people who became the inner circle of chosen pets were generally artculate extroverts with sales-like personalities. This was a close approximation to what I have called the UAP (Universal Ambassador Personality). So there was a natural affinity between the AC grad ministry and these articulate pets, which was of course groomed and cultivated through Spokesman's Club in the local churches. Ministers trusted people who accepted their mentorship.
Of and by itself, is this automatically a bad thing? Not always. It is a dynamic found in major corporations, police departments, branches of government, associations, the military, oh hell, even motorcycle clubs, in fact anywhere where there is an authority structure and advancement. It is a very human phenomenon, and a way in which people advance and their talents are used. If you do not comply with it, if for example you are a talented rebel outlaw in a corporation, you'd better be able to charismatically "sell yourself" in order to survive and remain part of the system.
It just appeared clumsy, and what we used to call "super plastic" (artificial or contrived) when people contorted themselves in this way, and became basically parrots in a church environment, an apocalyptic, end times cult no less. There was also the perceived pecking order based upon race, personal appearance, correct hormones, and knowledge of how far one should go in sharing personal details which allow for "letting people in".
By the way, the aspiring leaders of Armstrongism today whom we critique, and once in a great while (gasp!) mock, are all lacking in the attributes which would have qualified them for leadership (or even petship) in the old Herbert W. Armstrong Church of God! During the time the late Ian Boyne visited amongst us here, nobody to my knowledge ever mocked him! Somehow, he transcended the boundaries I've outlined above, yet subscribed to the philosophy we had left. We do not know what he might have been able to accomplish had he lived longer. There are no leaders in any of the ACOGs today who even come close to his skill set on television, and his candidness in addressing the faults and pitfalls of Armstrongism. Who else has come here from the orgs and addressed us as a friend?
So, there, I've laid it bare! The main problem becomes misuse of a corporate culture. When taken to extreme amongst fanatics, it becomes a borg mentality, a nefarious one which is fomented through incessant brain washing. brown nosing, ratting, and throwing thy neighbor under the chariot!
BB
Yes, 5:54! Paul was in many ways an outlier, an articulate one at that, who was used to set the pattern for the early Church to expand and become viable in gentile communities. His was perhaps a third world view-defining example, the one which Armstrongism rejected in one of their great failures to understand.
BB
One more thought. Once at AC, in casual dorm conversation, one of the minister's names came up, and I mentioned that he occasionally taught one of the classes I was taking. The guy with whom I was speaking mentioned that this particular minister worked with one of the most admired evangelists, and acted a lot like him. Mind you, this was said in respect, as a good thing. The guy elaborated futher, asking if I'd ever noticed that people often speak and act much like those to whom they report. And, yes, I had. However, at that time, that is as deep as my youthful thinking went.
What I later learned was that this phenomenon was known as "acting in another's valence". People often recognize those who act from a position of strength, and literally visualize themselves as being that person as they go through their daily activities, making their decisions, and interacting with others. This is not something which derives from deep inner strength. For some, it is a temporary rookie thing, but for others it becomes a permanent pattern, a growth-stunting one.
One humorous example. Every year, some incoming freshman, a couple weeks into his first semester, would go to El Rancho, buy a tube of Brylcream, comb his hair straight back exactly like HWA, even if that style did not fit his shape head, and walk around campus using terms like "Hogwash", "Balderdash", and "Poppycock". In most cases, it didn't last long, or gradually tapered off, but it was funny as hell to watch as it gradually played out.
BB
Why so quick to pour ice cold water on the UCG member survey results??
'Nothing to see here'
'Nothing will change'
'Useless window dressing'
'Same old, same old'
Are you lot so sure?
Change it's a travelling down the tracks.
The "chosen pets" are minster boot lickers. They give themselves all manner of perks such as verbally pecking on other members. Complaining results in being accused of "being the problem." It's gang morality that rules these groups.
All good suggestions but as you say the authoritarian Armstrong system has been there forever,
They may read the results of the survey but what are they going to do about it? The ministers don't want to change things because 1., They are stuck in the old format (terrified of stepping out in faith lest it cost them their wages) 2., They are afraid of giving too much power to the congregation and 3., They are faithless and undiscerning of the Spirit of God to be able to guide us. Want to prophesy? Be prepared to get a rebuttal. Want to sing hymns? Who is going to lead? Want to study the Scriptures and ask questions? That might be too dangerous. Want to discuss the doctrines? Oh, no, someone might get offended! Want to pray? Good, but for how long and about what?
Until the elders stop carrying the stick around with them to whack something that they don't understand, we won't make progress.
Meanwhile, the Lord is taking away His candlestick and putting it somewhere else where He can produce some fruit, where a good word and a good work can be recognized for what it is.
Are those in power going to lead the effort for meaningful change? If you are in a position of power, you probably don't want to risk losing it. Plus, any change is an admission that what has been done was not correct. No, better for those in power to stay the course. Any change can be dangerous.
BB that is really funny there at 9:27. I can certainly visualize fellas doing that with the HWA lookalike Brylcreem.
Well yes, I'm sure. These groups have been around for decades, and have had every opportunity to change. When people come to church, they early on decide to either go down the straight and narrow, or the broad way with its accompanying many perks. Which is why Satan was a murder from the beginning. He didn't loiter around for millions of years before going off the rails. The fact that God has allowed many Christians to die middle aged proves that they had made their moral decision, one way or the other. Deathbed conversions are a myth.
Alot of distraction going on in these comments, you don't have to be a genius to see why.
Quite a shocking comment from Avoura !
Eternal problem for many an 'chosen pet' is experience. Many barely have any. Some UCG ministry since the COGWA split push up newly baptised, adoring, entertaining, UCG members whilst more experienced ones, less adoring, less yes people are overlooked.
Then you have a unfortunate "hare and the tortoise" situation playing out. The new hares become over confident, too much power too soon.
That has naturally led since COGWA split a major "Them and us" mentality growing and being played upon the UCG members. Them perceived by
Ministry as "leaders" and the members who are perceived by ministry as " not leaders". This gap has grown in recent years and at times you can sense the utter contempt. This 'them and us' attitude is not healthy and won't bode well for the future.
It is also ripe for God himself to make fools of the ministry with their 'Them and us' mentality. They always forget about God's freeedom to intervene outside their 'chosen cliques'.
Unbelief amongst Ministry is a root cause of UCG problems but the member survey cannot solve all issues, only God can solve and deal with these unbelieving men and women.
Weird remark only the Lord knows what your going on about.
10.37 Enlighten us then seeing you have it all worked out it seems.
Who, when, what, where, why? The five w's! The journalist's basic questions. You simply must share more with us than what you did, 10:37!
The “Light to the community” desire holds potential. Be an individual or congregational, such involvement can help break the parochial element of the cult. Individual civic involvement would show them they have an authority from God that doesn’t pass through their church/minister.
https://catsgunsandnationalsecurity.blogspot.com/2025/06/reference-counter-to-traditional.html?m=1
Congregational involvement in the community would show them They can hold to their individual doctrine beliefs, while at the same time being part of their Nonmember neighborhood (John 17:15).
There is a model for them to use: The World Missionary Society Church of God. Yes, it’s even more cult than Armstrongism. But they are Leviticus 23-observant, yet engage in individual civic duty and organized community service. I saw a video 20 years ago of members taking Passover while stationed in Iraq. They even had one Anglo member who was a Marine Corps drill instructor at San Diego. The church received a shout-out from Governor Christie after the hurricane in New Jersey for the help in the cleanup. I believe they sent members to be trained by that outfit that bought the Big Sandy campus. (And throw in Charlie Kirk’s Sabbath example.)
Breaking them of their clique and thus exposing how Armstrong and his legacy have used this as a means of holding their attendance will go far to breaking them of their bondage to the authoritative legacy of Pervo. They will see that there is life out there.
Is the distraction pro UCG or con UCG.
Simply Bad
This is supposedly the Laodicea era of the church and it is not looking good at all. Too many unrepentant, unconverted unbelievers go to the UCG to behave very badly while playing church. Perverts are welcomed in and supported in order to “show love” to them while their victims are kicked out for them, presumably to show even more love for the perverts. There is a very good reason why the UCG can only split and splinter and can never grow in size.
Anonymous on Friday, March 6, 2026 at 11:13:06 PM PST said...“In my ten year stay in the WWCG, I spent dozens of hours driving church members around in my car. When I had a car accident and needed a lift to services, members were offended that I so much as asked for a lift. The point in the article that only a few carry the church is very true. The constant serving talk in these groups is very misleading since most members are getters rather than givers. Plus, a minister can at whim throw a member out of the church, robbing that person of friendships developed over a decade or more. Based on a risk - benefit accounting, attending church isn't worth it.
And not forgetting, during my stay, it became obvious that some only attended services because it gave them access to members that they could exploit.”
So SAD! So TRUE!!!
Oh dear what a dilemma 1:48 & 7:45. I'm 10:37 and also 11:09 amongst other comments. I've shared enough.
Yeah, but the basic jist of the matter remains that if these ACOGs really wish to be of service to God and man, they should dissolve and cease to exist. A number of the areas which require reform the most are sacred cows to them. You might say these are their "OFF!" insect repellent. Most who are left are completely hopeless. It's really a miracle any of us got out. We know that some joined other cults and some even became part of the militia movement!
Talk about being hard-wired!
Sshhh! He still thinks we're the ministers.
For all the hype from various commenters insisting that the member survey results were just short of astounding, the results look awfully predictable to me.
Surprised you didn’t use the word “godless” multiple times like you usually do when you comment.
Chicken! You love to make accusations, but you don't want to be held accountable or substantiate. So, your comment about distraction ends up being of no value to us. A pity, that! I had taken you seriously and wanted to hear what you had to say.
The core area To be addressed is their Sense of require required affiliation to Armstrongism. This is where so many here get off track. Literally any other factor — including my concern about civic duty — is either patent sin found in all sorts of denominations, or specific doctrines which, if they believe, is simply what they believe. That you don’t like some of those doctrines is on you. They don’t like your doctrines. So the feeling there is mutual.
Break them of the church identity tie — The actual cultism — and then any other specifically Armstrong problems can be addressed.
There is nothing bad about a church surveying its members IF they actually listen to them and implement changes. UCG has done these surveys several time sand has not changed anything to improve how they treat members.
I certainly hope they show "love" to Mr. Allwine by letting him know we are all safer with him being in jail where he is now.
And another fella named Carrenard wasn't very helpful either.
Religious organization, corporations (K Mart and Sears), etc. find it very difficult to change. Those in power resist it. It's that "you can't put new wine in old wineskins" idea. Too often the organization has to die and be replaced, rather than reformed.
Who's fooled by pathological liars?
No dilemma whatsoever . Your comments were lost in unknown segments and for that reason I enquired. There is no dilemma .
The two guys mentioned in 3:34 never ask the brethren to pray for the surviving family members of their victims either. Proof of their selfishness, danger, & guilt.
I agree, 5:02. Ironic that your comment is time-coded at 5:02 with a comment about wine, because 502 in California is police code for driving under the influence! Further, it appears that the Armstrong movement was very unsuccessful when they attempted to pour new wine into Mr. Allwine's metaphoric wineskins!
This blog is a farce and fraudulent sham. Numerous comments by the mocking blog community show this blog to be nothing more than light entertainment for a clique of hypocrites who should have stayed with GCI a long time ago.
You have no interest in discussing anything. Nothing of interest in what Julie Zutz highlighted from the results. Mocking to smoother everything is all you've got.
But the UCG members DO take notice and in that is your problems.
6:13, Julie highlighted multiple points, some good some bad, so what are we conclude? That UCG is lukewarm? (some good, some bad, some hot, some cold, etc.) Are you coming to this blog just to get more opinions on top your already received opinions?
The endless debating and pontificating over church problems isn't going to help until we repent.
No interest in discussing anything, you say? How about stepping outside of your offices, rolling up your sleeves and getting into field to see what really is going on, instead of running to your SUVs, your restaurants, your wives to find relief? Maybe then you'll hear the lie, feel the shut door, experience the dialogue cutoff, and endless procrastination on resolving disputes. (Want to count how many times this has happened to me in the church?) So you want to discuss something, you say? Are you up to the challenge?
It might be too hard for you while the times are still good.
So, where do we go to repent in sackcloth and ashes? To whom do we turn ourselves in at UCG?
But, isn't UCG just a social club at this point? Didn't the serious Philadelphians all become exasperated and go off to start COGwa?
9:54 Spokesperson for this blog community ? You have no idea what UCG members have dealt with esp in last 15 years. I'm saying exactly what i wrote.
12:17, you don't know who to go to repent? You don't know who is the head of the church?
9:54, I have no idea what UCG members have dealt with over the last 15 years? I WAS A MEMBER OF UCG BEFORE ONE OF YOUR PASTORS LIED AND MANAGED TO FOOL 3 COUNCILS BEFORE YOUR TROUBLES BEGAN 15 YEARS AGO. Maybe there was a connection? Or maybe God doesn't care for the weakest member? When Achan, David and Solomon sinned, the whole house came tumbling down.
View me as a compatriot fugitive who defected to the Philistine side like David his my run away from Saul.
Judge ye what I say.
Don't go into analphalactic shock and get all butt hurt, 8:06! I was being patronizing and facetious in playing with the animals. They're the ones who think you have to go to one of the ministers to get back n the church.
Always with degrading low insults 8:33. None think that at all. Yet there you will be on 31st March at the front representing the UCG ministry....
You need to writein for the last booklet HWA ever wrote. There was a very limited poshumous run until the booklet was killed. "Just What Do You Mean, Incest?"
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