Monday, October 18, 2021

MOST RECENT UPDATE: Feast COVID Infections Rising Rapidly, Including Nine Death's



UPDATE:  

Church of God Assembly (COGNews)
Members have been fasting and praying because of the ‘unprecedented’ number of church people who have recently fallen sick due to Covid-19 and other illnesses.
Sheldon Monson’s nephew, Michael Case, died just before the festival, and there have been 4 deaths since then, including his own sister, Anne Burns.

A UCG Pastor now has died from COVID-19, in the wake of the Feast. Randy D'Allesandro, pastor in Chicago and Beloit, WI, died this past Wednesday. 

Philadelphia Church of God, Edmonton Feast site has lots of infections now as PCG tries to keep it quiet.

Every COG internet prayer request mailing list and Facebook group are now listing scores of infections.

COGNews is reporting that 1/3 of COGWA attendees at its Rapid City site have now tested positive for covid, 90 out of 270 people with 4 hospitalized.

COG Big Sandy now has 14 new confirmed cases and LCG has 3 ministers sick in addition to lots of members.

One of the three men who organized the independent Feast site at Land Between the Lakes, KY now has covid and has raved about the new film, COVIDLAND.

Numerous emails have been coming in from various COG groups with people listing names of COG members who have gotten sick with COVID while attending the Feast of Tabernacles this year. A lot of these emails include posts from various COG Facebook groups with people's names and photos who are requesting prayers.

One of Mark Armstrong's ministers was so sick he could not even make it home after the Feast and had to stay in a member's home to recover well enough to travel again.

The person who sent this one in commented:

I wonder if, during the remainder of their journey, they had the decency to mask up and social distance when they stopped for gas and bathroon breaks?

Yeah, right.  đź™„.  Stupid question.   

Sadly a member from the Mid-Missouri COG has died from the virus.

The Tulsa Church of God has been hit hard by members being infected.

The Texarkana Church of God International has also been hit hard. 

Sadly, these are just the tip of the iceberg with the COG community as a whole. Far more are sick in other congregations and church groups. Many of the groups are restricting the information from getting out especially if it is tied to covid.

One Living Church of God member said that she knows of at least 4 people who got infected at the Feast.

COG leaders knew they were taking a risk in holding these Feast site locations, but went ahead and did it anyway. The almighty dollar still controls most decisions in COG's these days and the fact that they think they are immune to the disease because they are God's chosen people.

202 comments:

1 – 200 of 202   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Can you advise who the person was who died in MO?

Anonymous said...

For most people, contracting COVID-19 is no different than getting the flu. Should services or the FOT be abandoned because of the flu?
It's disappointing that Banned has joined the COVID fear-porn bandwagon.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry to hear of a Covid death from the Feast.

I disagree that the Feast going ahead is only about money. Whilst that may be a factor I would say it is not the only one. The Church organisation traditions have become so rooted in style they simply cannot fathom change of any kind. Which is dangerous. The Church needs to be far more adaptable to the changing circumstances of the World around us.
It is not 1987 anymore. Not being able to embrace the Feast in a changing world will get worse. The Church needs to rethink and embrace a more ideas outlook far more quickly. The is no think tanks or ideas group outside of the small percentage of leaders and their cronies.

Going ahead with Feasts that settled in style in 1970s is a death trap in 2021. The blessing and hedge protection from God has changed yet the feast style is still in the 1970s.

Anonymous said...

The ACOGs are composed of ideological (but non-voting) Republicans. So most of the members' thinking patterns are similar to the right wing fake news sites developed in the aftermath of the fallout between Donald Trump and Rupert Murdock. Mark Armstrong has established a pattern of extreme alliance with Donald Trump, Gerald Flurry's "researchers" have quoted and name checked ultra right wing sources in Trumpet articles,, as has LCG, and feast goers from other splinters have used rationalizations for their gatherings right out of Ron deSantis's playbook.

The consequences are indeed sad, but not unexpected. Herbert Armstrong himself promoted distrust in all things mainstream, including the news media, the education system, and the medical profession. Retrospectively, some called him a mass murderer for his anti-medical establishment teachings, under which so many died unnecessarily. Sound medical research goes against the Armstrongite agenda vis a vis Covid 19 pandemic, and their ersatz version of Sukkot. Most of us knew in advance that they would never err on the side of "an abundance of caution.". And now it appears that they did not receive protection from their own foolishness.

Anonymous said...

Surprisingly there is a big Microsoft ERP user conference taking place soon in Houston.
Plus we have huge audiences at sports games.
The COGs are not the only ones who have thrown caughtion to the wind.

Anonymous said...

FWIW, our organization had about one third of the membership at the Feast. Most stayed home and connected online to services. It was a "young" Feast for sure. The elderly and otherwise infirm wisely stayed home. I'm not aware of anyone getting sick at the Feast. It's amazing what using a little common sense can do.

Sweetblood777 said...

The cogs could have sent out sermon dvds and requested that offerings be mailed in. This would have saved the church a lot of money without taking the risks.

Anonymous said...

These posts are in bad taste.

Anonymous said...

6.50 AM
Well then, give us hillbilly rednecks examples of good taste comments.

Anonymous said...

The Church is not the only group that meets! By some of these headlines, you would think that the writers are happy that members get sick!

Anonymous said...

I urged everyone on Banned never to leave their houses again. Never go to the crowed store, never ever go to a sporting event, never go to a demonstration, never go to your child's programs at school or elsewhere, never have Xmas dinner with your family, never go anywhere where there are people. Get a clue, this virus will never go away, you have to live your life someday. and I truly believe the majority of you all do gonout and about, but just love to find any way to bring down God's Church.

Anonymous said...

6:50. "These posts are in bad taste."

What's bad taste is COG leaders, like Mark Armstrong, who think this is all fake, and now many of his members and ministers are sick because people listened to his lies.

Anonymous said...

I received this morning:

From Joe Dobson, pastor, Fulton, MO:

Urgent prayers are requested for B...... He is suffering from severe symptoms from COVID-19. He fainted this morning and his brain is just not functioning clearly. He was taken by ambulance to the hospital and is undergoing tests. Because of COVID-19 he is in isolation and not allowed visitors.

Anonymous said...

Bob Thiel's Michigan CCOG minister died of of COVID while at the Feast.

Zippo said...

By some of these headlines, you would think that the writers are happy that members get sick!

While I can't say there aren't malevolents who wish people misfortune, I don't see that as a Banned prerogative or trend. At worst, I think it's a "told ya".
COG, and other groups, should practice common sense and social responsibility.
Ironically, while pushing some of the Biblical Laws, and falsely labeling dietary restrictions as "health laws" (though, indirectly, that may be a bit true), they squawk against the quarantine and hygiene Laws.
The same sense and responsibility should be in all gatherings, and the school and workplace. There can be too much incentive to come to an event, school, or the office even if you're sick (no paid sick days, I won't get "perfect attendance", whatever).

Questeruk said...

According to Bob Thiel's Letter 29th September - 'Terry died of double pneumonia while attending the Feast of Tabernacles.

COVID or pneumonia? You decide.

Anonymous said...

8:26, I am 1:19. What most of us here are doing is an attempt to promote accountability. Oddly enough, in this case, we are not trying to bring down "God's" church (sic). If the church is its members, as opposed to a corporate structure, you might more accurately say that we are trying to save it. If the ACOG leaders behaved more responsibly, we and our comments would be completely unnecessary.

I have been fully vaccinated, and when I reach my six month anniversary of that, I plan to get my booster shot. I did this so that I could enjoy my personal freedoms once again, and do my civic duty to help eradicate the pandemic, much the same as responsible citizens once did to get rid of polio and smallpox.

Government by fairy tales has a long history supporting the agendas of Armstrongism. Starting in 2017, government by fairy tales entered the US mainstream, nearly bringing us to civil war in Jan. 6. 2021 Much like leaving Armstrongism and moving on, America now needs to move on. I'm thankful to have learned in advance and in microcosm how authoritarianism and fairy tales ruin lives. It's time to get back to common sense and fact- based leadership, both with church and national policies.

Anonymous said...

Fwiw, I agree with this as well.

-650

Anonymous said...

"It's disappointing that Banned has joined the COVID fear-porn bandwagon."

I second that.

And I don't need to get vaccinated to enjoy my personal freedoms again. Not with a 99.8% survival rate.

Honestly, good for you that you got vaccinated. -- that's a personal choice and had zero to do with some imagined "civic duty".

This kind of holier-than-thou virtue signaling is EXACTLY the kind of thought processes extant in the ACOGs that we are all so critical of.



Anonymous said...

9:25 am

Civil war on Jan 6?

When a bunch of people roamed around the capital peacefully after being let inside by police? None of them being armed and none of them doing any damage or being cited with anything more than trespassing?

Meanwhile, in 2020, our cities burned, private property was destroyed by the billions, police were exiled from portions of cities where anarchy and armed hooligans ruled the day and night, and that doesn't even register as being close to civil war for you?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:35

I have seen this idea expressed many times and it has been answered many times by various medical organizations. Covid and the flu are both respiratory viruses. The transmissibility rate for Covid is 2.5 compared to 1.3 for the regular flu. The mortality rate is from 4 to 15 times high for Covid. This isn't the Black Plague but it means lots of avoidable death.

An unknown factor is how many people will develop some kind of post-Covid syndrome. We also don't know when the syndromes will show up. There are many kinds of diseases that seem to be connected with viral infections. Covi seems to be especially capable of these kind of sequela.

Further, when there is a large reservoir of people who are infected, nasty mutations can occur. Covid seems highly mutable.

When you are applying small changes in percentage to large populations of people the absolute loss of life can be enormous. As Christians should we just say that Covid is "just another flu" and make no effort to help other people not succumb?

It is amazing to me how many people in the so-called conservative religious community can decry abortion and then engage in practices that facilitate the destruction of human life via Covid. Isn't there a blatant ethical impairment here?

The fact is, the anti-vaxxers I see on TV are not conservatives. Conservatives do not believe in letting "neighborhood effects" abound to everyone's detriment. The anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are libertarians. They believe most of all in The Self and this view does not comport with Christian praxis. If you are such an uncaring libertarian, going to the FoT is not going to do you any good anyway. You may as well stay home and enjoy what reprobation that you can.

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Anonymous said...

Some stark facts from Israel the other day. And a warning to us all.
3236 new covid cases.
489 in critical condition.
197 on respirators.
Death toll since the pandemic started 7853, from a population of 9.21 million. Putting things in perspective, road deaths for the past 12 months 302. Thanks in part to lockdowns that is down 15%.
Covid can kill; those with underlying medical issues are seriously at risk. It spreads easily and is no respecter of age or gender. Listening to the testimonies of those who have survived the virus and of those who have lost loved ones, get vaccinated, and wear a mask where possible.
I hope those Festival goers who have caught Covid make a speedy recovery. And I hope now that the ministry will acknowledge the seriousness of this pandemic and act accordingly to minimise any risk to their aging congregations. We have been warned. Keep safe out there.

Anonymous said...

@NEO

"When you are applying small changes in percentage to large populations of people the absolute loss of life can be enormous. As Christians should we just say that Covid is "just another flu" and make no effort to help other people not succumb?"

Fine, but covid is also not the only disease in the world. What about everything else? What about all of the preventive screenings that aren't being done? What about the increasing rise in suicide, and domestic abuse, and child abuse? What about the increasing rate of addiction, loneliness, antisocial behaviors that lead to depression and suicide?

Like everything else we have to look at it as a whole. And frankly in my opinion, the relatively minor risk for most of the population contrasted to the extreme measures for all of the population or actually putting the greater population at risk by virtue of unintended consequences.

Anonymous said...

""It's disappointing that Banned has joined the COVID fear-porn bandwagon.""

I don't think anyone here has joined any bandwagon. It's a blog about the COG and I think they are doing a good job. Are we supposed to give the emerging infections and deaths so that church leadership isn't held accountable again for something they had some control over?

I have seen plenty of covid deniers in the comments but never seen any of the blog owners posting here as pushing for or against vaccines and masks.

Anonymous said...

I knew Terry and he died from covid complications. His wife's Facebook message supports this. Why didn't Theil report this, is he trying to wash his hands of this tragedy?

Anonymous said...

"This kind of holier-than-thou virtue signaling is EXACTLY the kind of thought processes extant in the ACOGs that we are all so critical of."


In case you haven't noticed, liberalism is a religion and it's far worse than anything you can imagine.

Anonymous said...

Well said anon 3:57.

Anonymous said...

Oct 6, 3:57 pm

Covid can kill; those with underlying medical issues are seriously at risk. It spreads easily and is no respecter of age or gender. Listening to the testimonies of those who have survived the virus and of those who have lost loved ones, get vaccinated, and wear a mask where possible.

Um, no offense, but it's a little presumptuous to just tell everyone to get vaccinated. That's a decision people should make with their medical professional.

Over 100,000,000 Americans have been infected with Covid. Many have natural immunity. Both I and my spouse got it (we're both in our early 40s), and it was mostly a non-issue; I've had the flue with worse symptoms. We also paid to get antibody tests and both show strong results. We will not be getting the shot. Our decision puts no one else in danger. We are also weighing the risk of an experimental vaccine with no long-term studies. We'll take our chance with Covid.

Another thing: I think many people in the ACOGs would presumably be unlikely to be vaccinated given that all the vaccines included use of fetal stem cell lines in their research and testing. Since all ACOGs that I know are against abortion, they would most likely ask for religious exemptions on these grounds alone, even if they were at risk.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:20, you wrote "Fine, but covid is also not the only disease in the world."

The "logic" of this escapes me. You advocate inaction because there is so much disease in the world. So if your neighbor is starving, you withhold help because there are so many starving people in the world and what you can do will not make a dent.

First, this is the opposite of what Christ set forth as right behavior in the parable of The Good Samaritan.

Second, this is a typical Armstrongist attitude. The WCG at one time espoused the idea that charities should not be supported. The world is evil, they said, and we can't do anything about it. So we are waiting for Christ to return a fix things. In the meantime, give your money to the WCG instead.

Some people cannot get vaccinated for physical or psychological reasons. They should not be condemned for this. The condemnation should fall on those who do not get vaccinated because they are ethically impaired.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:56 wrote, "And I don't need to get vaccinated to enjoy my personal freedoms again. Not with a 99.8% survival rate."

You are erroneously thinking in terms of percentages instead of the absolute number of people who will die, the absolute number of children orphaned. The number of Americans who died in Viet Nam was .03%. Does that make their sacrifice inconsequential? Apparently, you would turn your nose up at this.

What if you contract Covid-19, are asymptomatic, and blithely spread it to a bunch of people who subsequently die? Where will you be when their children cry because they have no parents - watching TV wit a bowl of popcorn? Just an insignificant cost of your libertarian "personal freedom," right?

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:23, "... liberalism is a religion and it's far worse than anything you can imagine."

That's right. And so, in the same sense, is conservatism. So is populist demagoguery. They are all far worse than anything you can imagine. They are human systems that reflect human flaws. We can all cite chapter and verse. In case you haven't noticed.

Note: The adoption of political fealty by Armstrongists is a new phenomenon. I knew a guy who saw an article advertised in WCG literature titled "Who Would Jesus Vote For?" or something like that. At the time, he knew for sure it was Barry Goldwater. He requested the article and discovered, with some alarm, that Jesus did not support politicians and voting was wrong according to the WCG. HWA believed that the church always got into trouble when it sought appeasement in the political realm. Modern-day Splinterists seem to have abandoned this loyalty to belief. That is why I do not like to use the term Armstrongist. Splinterdom seems to have strayed from the pure teachings of HWA. I prefer the term Apocalyptic Millerite or, simply, Splinterist. We have reached the stage where Splinter groups need to earn the right to be called Armstrongist.

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Anonymous said...

October 6, 2021 at 5:26 PM

I have seen plenty of covid deniers in the comments but never seen any of the blog owners posting here as pushing for or against vaccines and masks.

What exactly is a 'covid denier'?

Granted I haven't read every blog entry here, but I haven't come across anyone who denies that Covid exists or that it's affected the global population.

On the other hand, people who prefer to make their own informed medical decisions, people who embrace natural immunity and those who have either a religious or medical reason not to get vaccinated are all lumped into this category it seems.

That's unfortunate, and inaccurate.

Zippo said...

Why didn't Theil report this, is he trying to wash his hands of this tragedy?

For Bob to admit he gave medical advice to anyone could lead to litigation.

Years ago a blog published a letter from Pasadena that advised ministers on what to do if a member died. Basically the minister was to distance himself from the problem, and say nothing. If asked, he only knew the family of the deceased.

Lord Jeep said...

Anonymous 5:26 said "On the other hand, people who prefer to make their own informed medical decisions, people who embrace natural immunity and those who have either a religious or medical reason not to get vaccinated are all lumped into this category it seems."

There is no natural immunity to Covid. That is why it is spreading like wildfire among the unvaccinated population in the US. What the vaccines do is allow your body to create a natural immunity to Covid before it encounters it. That makes the chance of severe illness and death significantly less. Not to mention avoiding the long term effects of Covid on the body.

Encountering Covid unvaccinated is like stopping a vehicle without breaks. You can do it by smashing your car into something. The chances of injury and death are far higher. The vaccines act like brakes for your body.

The Feast Sites are unfortunately vulnerable because the high percentage of antivaxxers. This current outcome was easily predictable even if you are not a prophet.

Anonymous said...

@NEO 7:01 am

What if you contract Covid-19, are asymptomatic, and blithely spread it to a bunch of people who subsequently die? Where will you be when their children cry because they have no parents - watching TV wit a bowl of popcorn? Just an insignificant cost of your libertarian "personal freedom," right?

Just curious of you're also this critical of people who get the vaccine and STILL spread Covid?

The entire population's well-being is not on my shoulders. If anyone is at risk, they should take steps to protect themselves, which may include the vaccine. People need to take personal responsibility for their own welfare.

Your analogy to Vietnam is rather disturbing. No one is minimizing the loss of life there and there is virtually no real analogy between an armed conflict and a disease with a 99.8% survival rate.

On the point of personal freedom, yes that is more important than anything else. Every society that has slowly crushed individual liberties slide into Communism, or a form of totalitarian control. Over 100,000,000 dead in the last 100 years from Communism. So yeah, personal liberties and freedom save lives.

Anonymous said...

Neo 6:41

The "logic" of this escapes me. You advocate inaction because there is so much disease in the world.

Yes, I can tell you don't get it.

First, I didn't advocate for inaction. Not in the least.

Second, if you fail to understand the concept of treating the whole person (considering other maladies beyond the threat of Covid, as well as the compound negative effects of isolation, lack of socialization, loss of income, etc.) then, well, you've done us all a favor by demonstrating your position on the subject.

Anonymous said...

What burns my bird is that so many strawmen are created to support the partisan positions.

"Parents are intelligent enough to male their own healthcare decisions for their kids, so we shouldn't have mask mandates"
Comment: Anyone who has ever had school age children knows that most parents are grossly irresponsible, negligent, and inattentive to their childrens' needs, both physical and emotional.

"Isolation causes a plethora of problems worse than the virus itself"
Comment: This assumes that the general population consists of a bunch of pussies who are incapable of rising up to combat difficult circumstances which crop up throughout their lives.

"Masks are totally useless"
Comment: That is because so many people do not know how to select quality masks, do not know how to properly wear even the cheapies they do find, do not discard them at proper interval, and fail to sanitize their hands before putting them on, and after removing them.

"Covid 19 is just like a little cold or the flu."
Comment: Hey, we need you! Please volunteer to empty bedpans at your local emergency room, to assist in the disposal of medical wastes, and to administer tests.

"There are non-mainstream medical solutions which "they" don't want us to know about"
Comment: Go for it! Snort Lysol, take your ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, fish tank detergent. Gargle with peroxide. All research is valuable, even the kind that tells you what kills or puts you in the ER!

Anonymous said...

@Lord Jeep
There is no natural immunity to Covid.

I think you are terribly misinformed.

Anonymous said...

Now I really feel better, and safer, knowing how many on Banned are totally, and indisputably, EXPERTS, on good health and, Covid prevention, vaccines, death percentages, and how stupid everyone else is.
Thank goodness we’re all protected here. Next thing you know Fauci will show up to begin his new, and better, medical education. Don’t we all feel so much better now?

Anonymous said...

Say what you want but I have done a ton of research on covid and the "vax" and I would never get the vax. I don't care if I get fired or never eat at a restaurant again. I researched it many hours each day for several weeks. I am not afraid of covid in the least. The masses have been greatly misled. I could post many links to support my views but any person can find them for themselves. Many people just swallow the media garbage and just don't dig deeper.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:47 PM
Many who post here have done their research also. And after many hours and months of inquiry and evaluation have come to the conclusion that getting vaccinated is a no brainer.
And many here do not swallow the mass media hysteria over Covid and dig deep to find out what the real issues are surrounding the virus, and are now vaccinated.And can provide the links to support their positions.
I got vaccinated for the reason as a caregiver, to a disabled family member with multiple disabilities, my concern was for them and other family whom I did not want to expose to a virus that would cause them immeasurable suffering. I couldn’t live with that if I was responsible.

Anonymous said...

So, for some here, the new guiding question is "What would Q do?"

Anonymous said...

8:45....yes, I got vaxxed also, and I have a full blown case right now....day seven. No boosters for me.

James said...

The video here should help you make the connection as to the source of the pandemic. Follow the money to learn the truth. But you won't.
https://herbertwarmstrong.com/2021/10/06/the-world-has-been-scammed-by-fauci-and-company-of-criminals/

Anonymous said...



I'm sorry to hear; hope you make a fully recovery soon.

I wonder how the staunch You-must-get-vaxxed-or-you're-an-enemy-of-people crowd on here will respond to that.

Anonymous said...

Well, Paul Ray, I don't believe that the person who wrote the whitewash piece about a peaceful demonstration Jan 6 really believes what he wrote. I think there are some people who just have a perverse nature that causes them to get off on baiting others, so they type their laughable garbage just to watch the normal people scramble around to defend reality.

Anonymous said...

All these people getting vaxed and then getting covid. Hey, I got covid without the vax! Now I have real immunity, something the vaxed don't have. It was a bad sick, believe me, but I recovered with no medical intervention. And I'm a senior citizen.

I was asked, knowing what I know now, would I take the vaccine if I could do it over. I said absolutely not.

People with serious health issues need to be vary careful about covid. If you are in good health there is little to fear.

Anonymous said...

@Paul Rey

Citizens attempted to hold their public representatives accountable through peaceful protest. Yes, there were bad actors involved. Revolutions have been started over less.

Weird though how you didn't acknowledge the same public videos of police letting protesters through, opening doors, people walking peacefully through the capital and hundreds shouting for the Antifa crowd NOT to break windows or do damage. Is it possible there were really two groups of people there that day? One that wanted to peacefully protest and another that infiltrated to make them look bad?

Meanwhile, in 2020, cities, burned, billions in damages to private property, actual deaths occurred, and it was called "mostly peaceful protests".

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:17

I will respond to it. Why would you think that the whole issue of vaccination would pivot on one person with a break-through infection commenting on a blog? What earth-shaking conclusion are we supposed to draw from this comment? You need to reflect a little on how you interpret data.

There are break-through infections. The rate stands at .02% per week. This does no dampen the overall efficacy statistis for the vaccines. This does not support in any way the people who claim the vaccines are useless. If they were useless, break-through infections would be a huge percentage of the cases identified. We would never see the infection rate decline. Covid would work through our population until every body had it.

It is kinda strange to argue Covid-19 when I know very well that is not the issue.
Nor is the Big Steal or creeping socialism the issue. White Americans are scared spitless by the rising tide of Black and Browns in the US population. And for these people White Nationalism sounds pretty good. Currently, the population of the very much divided USA is in a state of Cold War. And Vladimir Putin and his buddies are rolling in the aisles with laughter. They have been far more successful than they ever dreamed over the last few years. Covid-19 is just small potatoes. Just some distracting heckling from the right wing.

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Anonymous said...

At least three LCG ministers down with Covid and hundreds of members suffering with the virus yet no mention of any type of prayer request in their weekly update. Again, they simply don't care about their members. No love, no concern, no need to pray for them. They again turn a blind eye to the situation and pretend like nothing "major" has happened. LCG = Loveless Church of god.

Anonymous said...

Being against mandatory vaccines myself a hypothetical was posed to me the other day. I was asked would I be for mandatory vaccines if there's a virus with a mortality rate of 50% and a vaccine with an efficacy rate against death of 95%.

I gave them a long and short answer.

My long answer: The hypothetical is irrelevant. Disease and death is inevitable in this cursed world. So whether you're young or old you'll get sick and/or die sooner or later. There's no escaping this harsh reality! Like the American Founding Father Benjamin Franklin aptly put it: "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes!” So to force someone to do something that s/he doesn't want to do and go against their conscience is tantamount to being a bully or tyrant. If someone forced you to inject, inhale or ingest something into your body or your child's body that you strongly objected to would that be right, lawful, moral—even if the State deemed it "legal?" Throughout this pandemic we've seen long held liberties increasingly curtailed and infringed across the Western world in a futile attempt to "save lives" while a host of lives and livelihoods have been lost in the trade-off! Franklin would even respond to the hypothetical thus: "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Look at abortion and euthanasia as examples of the hypocrisy at play. The State has long upheld the liberal mantra, "My body! My choice!" and argued in favor of the right of an individual's "freedom to choose" when it comes to the butchering of the body of an unborn child in his/her mother's womb; or the partaking in the consensual homicide of terminally ill people. But, with these experimental Covid-19 vaccines the State is refusing to uphold one's right to freely choose what s/he has injected into their body and unjustly forcing everyone—under severe penalty!—to get an injectable! All in a vain effort to prevent death from a disease with a survival rate of over 90%! I'm sorry, but I, for one, cannot go along with this anti-libertarian and anti-democratic course of action.

My short answer: No!

Anonymous said...

I read a news item this past week about the rising anger amongst the vaccinated towards the refuseniks. Predominant feeling is that the epidemic could be over by this point in time, if only everyone had gotten onboard. The feeling is that this is a now a totally preventable disease, preventable through vaccination and proper wearimg of masks.

The screw is going to keep on tightening against those who refuse, whether it be tightened by mandates, the sheer cost of hospitalization for worst cases, ever more evolving science supporting the vaccines, or the shifting of public opinion. Let's face it, the anti-vaxxers are rapidly becoming the new lepers.

Anonymous said...

Word being passed around is that Sheldon Monson has COVID again and has been hospitalized with double pneumonia.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (9:18)

You have sounded a clarion note of libertarianism. Your view essentially brings personal freedom into opposition against Germ Theory. The former is philosphical position while the latter is rooted in hard science. What you assert is somewhat like saying subjectively "I do not believe that exposure to light is good" even though the shining of the sun is an immutable fact.

Again, percentages do not tell the story. It is rather the absolute numbers of people who die. Can we justify going to war if only a few people will die? Or is loss of life regrettable under any circumstances? War will always be and lives will always be lost but turning a callous eye towards the human consequences based on an acceptable quantitative measure is an ethical failure.

You wrote, "So to force someone to do something that s/he doesn't want to do and go against their conscience is tantamount to being a bully or tyrant."

I would suggest you shred your driver's license this afternoon so you can be purist in your viewpoint. I really don't think "conscience" has ever been an issue in the vaccination wars. The whole debate pivots on support of Donald Trump. He disparaged the vaccine from the beginning even though he was vaccinated himself. So under this ideological canopy, his base concocted all kinds of dubious reasons to make The Donald right. They support The Donald for reasons other than vaccinations. So we have the great paradox of a germaphobe who has been vaccinated leading an army of mesmerized and unvaccinated lemmings into preventable ruination. Go figure.

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Anonymous said...

Just imagine living in the days of Christ and someone standing outside the temple requiring TEMPERATURE CHECKS before gaining entry. The LGC has collectively LOST ITS MIND!! ARE YOU GUYS FOR REAL??? And they are so stupid that it is posted in plain sight for everyone to see on their members site!! (Cogl.org) I go there strictly for ENTERTAINMENT purposes. “Be a light at the Feast” says Doug Winnail!! Seriously Dougy?? What is this, spiritual KINDERGARTEN?? Bet you would LOVE to find out who we are so you can MARK us!! Good luck Dougy we speak FREELY to your so called people!! They will wake up eventually because they do NOT belong to YOU!! *YOU* ARE THE LOOSE BRICK!! No need to look further than your own family!!

Unknown said...

Anon 9:18 pm.

Well stated and I agree 100%.

Anonymous said...

NEO 3:42 pm

Sort of amazing how you could take a conversation about public health and pivot to a claim that all white people are somehow racist right wingers.

You liberals have the most bizarre fascination with race. You see racist boogie men and racist intent around every corner.

It's not surprising that race relations are always worse under Democrat administrations.

I feel sorry for you that your world view is based predominantly upon people's skin color rather than the content of their character.

Anonymous said...

No mention at all. That is staggering.

Anonymous said...

In Bob Thiel's latest sermon, the Perils of the Petulant Preacher in Puerto Rico, he relegates vaccines to "poison". But, for the sake of getting his gospel message to areas of the world that demand proof of vaccination by visitors, he will stoop to getting a deadly dose of deterrent drug. After all, he cannot be "hurt by deadly things". We await his mission to the Appalachion snake handlers!

James said...

October 8, 2021 at 9:18 PM

Good for you. You are a genuine man of words and action. There are not many of us in this world. Most are sheeple that follow men instead of thinking critically for themselves.

Now, the acog's are mostly made up of the elderly for one. The immune system wanes as we grow older. Death is enviable and is only a matter of time before something kills you.

There are things you can do for yourself even in old age.
One is to start working out, get plenty of sunlight, layoff the carbs and get you weight down to the normal range.
Don't pay attention to the food pyramid. This is a leftover from the 60's when it first appeared. This list has been refuted by many nutritionists. The stores are full of unhealthy processed shit. Don't eat it. And for those of you that read labels, you realize there is sugar in damned near every product in the store. And the Americans call it a obesity crisis when it is a nutritional crisis.

After having covid twice in 6 months, this after a major surgery to save my ass, my immune system was weak. Now 3 years later, I weigh what I did in my twenties, am fit, can lift more weights, go more the distance in running/walking, sleep better, think better and can still out work most men of my age.

This reply will be a burning bag of dog shit on the porch of the liberals who still play follow the leader. Instead of HWA now, its Fauci and his fellow oppressors.

Baaaa......

TLA said...

The vaccines were developed during the Trump administration and he was very proud of it.
He did not like wearing masks which seemed more of a vanity issue.
As far as administrations go we have gone from chaotic to embiciliac.
I hope we have much better choices next election.

Anonymous said...

There are words to a song that I've always remembered. "Don't pretend that you don't know!"

We live in times when it is politically chic to pretend that you don't know certain things, just so that you can preserve your own power. This disingenuousness was always a thing in the ACOGs, but it finally crept into the mainstream. Or perhaps it was always there, and maybe not so overt as it is now.

NEO is quite correct about many things being about color. As a nation, we were just about to get past that as part of the aftermath of George Floyd's murder, and become a better nation as a result if it. Entrenched power needed to preserve their control and combatted the re-examination process called "Critical Race Theory." They began to mock those who really "got it", and misappropriated the term "woke", using that word as if it were a bad thing.

My advice for my own people is to step out of your white skin once in a while, and find out what is really going on. Or, for some, please just quit pretending that you don't know,

Earl said...

Neo,
Trump bragged about getting the vaccine out there so quickly. The Dems disparaged the vaccine. Now that Biden is Prez, they love it.
The Dems made it political.
Many many conservatives were not hot on the vaccine because they didn’t trust it, but still were supportive of Trump.
Conservative views on the vaccine have changed far less than those of the Dems. The Dems made “Trump’s vaccine” a political issue. You’re smart; you have to see that.

James said...


October 9, 2021 at 2:54 PM is attempting to ‘Dismantling Whiteness’ in his rhetoric.
What the hell are civil rights about?

One thing about the former armstrongist. They are the same as the day they joined herbies klan. They have learned nothing.

Anonymous said...

I wish I had covid. Then I would have immunity.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:29

You wrote, "...pivot to a claim that all white people are somehow racist right wingers."

What I actually said was "White Americans are scared spitless by the rising tide of Black and Browns in the US population." Being scared and being racist are two different behaviors. I do believe that some people who are scared become racist. Others roll up their sleeves and get to work trying to solve problems. I depends on who is driven by altruism and who is not. Most of the Trump crowd do not display altruism.

You wrote, "You liberals have the most bizarre fascination with race."

I am not a liberal. I am somewhere right of center. Farther right than most centrists. I do not regard Trump and his followers as conservatives at all. Trump and his crowd are people who believe in populist autocracy not conservatism. Anti-vaxxers are not conservatives. Many of them a libertarians. A lot of them are just abject and vacuous followers of The Donald with no discernible political pretensions. They're just scared splitless and they need a great White warrior to fight off the Blacks and Browns so they fall in line unthinkingly with everything that The Donald coughs up.

I don't like liberals either. But right now they are not as heavily weaponized as the populist autocrats. The weather is coming out of the Trump base.

You wrote, "I feel sorry for you that your world view is based predominantly upon people's skin color rather than the content of their character."

Odd you would parapharse MLK. This is a sophomoric attempt to "turn the tables." A race/class war in the USA is inevitable. We are in the Cold War phase of it right now. You cannot logically deduce that I am a racist from such statements. I am making a geopolitical observation that does not reveal my views on race. Twice in your critique of what I said you attributed ideas to me that were incorrect. You need to spruce up your use of Rhetoric and Reason.

Most White Anti-vaxxer's do not care about vaccinations. That is just a smoke screen. They know about Germ Theory and its consequences like anybody else who has been to high school. Being an Anti-vaxxer is just an oath of fealty to Trump. They are scared splitless about the Blacks and the Browns and they think Trump is the solution. He is their sword of White wrath. But he's not the solution. Not even.

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Anonymous said...

The opening post is too judgmental. These individuals chose to go the feast and risk it. Freedom of choice, something this amazing country has allowed for many years, but it's slowly disappearing. They were willing to gladly attend and rejoice at the feast. I certainly don't believe it was about the dollar. It was about wanting to observe what the Father ordained long ago, which many have turned their backs on. There's still time for them to repent, but perhaps barely.

Anonymous said...

5:40: What? A former Armstrongite tries to get rid of Herbie's racism, and suddenly she hasn't learned anything??? What do civil rights have to do with a white person trying to understand the racism inflicted on people of color?

Anonymous said...

The 14 cases from COG Big Sandy's announcement bulletin are not all from their congregation. They are just people from the area that others would know - from UCG, COGWA, CGI, a Hebrew Roots group, COG Assembly and independents.

Anonymous said...

Don't know where the Monson rumor came from, but he gave a full sermon live today, Oct 9.

Anonymous said...

Coming from someone who has suffered covid and has family close to death because of it. It's not the flu. Shut up.

Anonymous said...

James mentioned "dismantling whiteness" I Googled the phrase to see if this was a buzz word of which I was unaware. Seems like there are so many new buzz words these days, but yes there is a website called dismantlingwhiteness.com. Apparently, it is the intellectual exercise which results from discovering one's roots, so that one has the entire picture. It leads to much deeper self awareness than comes from the simple knowledge that one is white.


I'll leave it to others to decide whether dismantlingwhiteness.com is good, bad, or neutral, but it is a very thought-provoking website!

Anonymous said...

Hello Neo: I enjoy many of your post and had wanted to stay out of the conversation about COVID and vaccinations. However, one thing you wrote at October 9, 2021 at 6:29 PM:
"A race/class war in the USA is inevitable. We are in the Cold War phase of it right now."
I hope that is not true and I believe that most Americans are not racist, want fairness for all, and hope for the best for others, especially those who've faced disadvantages.
Your statement is bombastic - just like HWA and Trump and several liberal politicians.
Your race war is not inevitable and is less likely if you and others don't fan the flames.
I think that the public will demand better from our politicians and will reject those who incite racial tensions (both on the right and left).
Give peace a chance!

Anonymous said...

NEO
I would suggest you shred your driver's license this afternoon so you can be purist in your viewpoint. I really don't think "conscience" has ever been an issue in the vaccination wars. The whole debate pivots on support of Donald Trump. He disparaged the vaccine from the beginning even though he was vaccinated himself. So under this ideological canopy, his base concocted all kinds of dubious reasons to make The Donald right. They support The Donald for reasons other than vaccinations. So we have the great paradox of a germaphobe who has been vaccinated leading an army of mesmerized and unvaccinated lemmings into preventable ruination. Go figure.

Come on NEO... how about a little intellectual honesty?

President Trump is the one who fast tracked the development of the vaccine through Operation Warp Speed.

President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris are on video record during their campaign (do your own search) saying they would not take the vaccine developed under President Trump and would be super suspicious about it (as if he was brewing it up in a lab in his basement).

Fast forward to 2021 and now it's politically expedient to use the vaccine as a hammer to coerce human behavior on a massive scale. This entire thing has been politicized from the beginning.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (6:40) wrote, "These individuals chose to go the feast and risk it."

If the risk were only to the individual making the choice, this would be an ethical decision. But this virus does not work that way. Asymptomatic carriers can feel perfectly fine and yet spread the disease to others.

Conservatives uphold the principle of "Neighborhood Effects." This was an idea developed by conserative economist Milton Friedman at the University of Chicago, a conservative economics school at the time. Friedman was an advistor to Ronald Reagand and Margaret Thatcher. The concept of neighborhood effect means that you cannot unilaterally do things that effect your neighbors negatively. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr said: “Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins.” Yet, the anti-vaxxer's throw out this conservative principle and instead support that radical libertarian (and liberal) idea that they can do anything they want in society. Anything less than that is an abridgement of their personal freedom. Like the song "I've got to be me." While they have the freedom to refuse to wear a mask and refuse to get vaccinated, they then do not have the right to circulate in society at large as if everything is normal.

(When people used to swim sans clothing that was radically liberal. Now when people want to go into society sans mask and sans vaccination, that is supposed to be patriotically conservative. Go figure.)

God instituted quarantine laws. These laws are now supposed to be, according to orthodox Armstrongism, written on the hearts of minds of Armstrongists under the New Covenant. The idea of going to the FoT to "serve God" doesn't wash. Here is Leviticus 13:45:

"The person who has the leprous disease shall wear torn clothes and let the hair of his head be disheveled; and he shall cover his upper lip and cry out, “Unclean, unclean.”"

And it is easy to extract a disease control principle from this. (It is not confined to leprosy. The OT Hebrew term translated leprosy is of uncertain meaning.)

I think maybe this is my last comment on vaccination for this cycle. I have worn thin. And my guess is that the Moderator has had to trash-can a lots of off color comments directed towards me and others of the same view. Has to be tedious.

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Anonymous said...

Neo: I do mostly like the way you share your views but, while I'm on a roll, I thought I would also mention that a while back you said that Trump doesn't like immigrants and alluded to the belief that is a shared sentiment of conservatives. For the record, Trump likes immigrants, especially the hot ones. He likes them so much, he has married two of them. Some politicians and some in the media have fostered the idea that conservatives don't like immigrants, while at the same time they paint those who enter the US illegally as only nice people who are just trying to feed their families. That take on immigration has consequences. There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration and to cloud that issue is fanning the flames of hate. Many people who enter the US illegally are basically good people who are in need of safe living conditions and economic opportunities. We should increase legal opportunities for these people to immigrate. However, there are too many illegal immigrants who are are involved in crimes like the drug trade, or sexual exploitation of women and children. Those who overlook or deny that fact do so at the peril of the nation. The fact that there is too big of an apatite for drugs and deviant sex in the US is a US problem, not the fault of other nations. Many who enter by illegal means will have communicable diseases, like COVID. Many who enter by illegal means will be exploited by the rich. Many who enter the country illegally will exploit the disadvantaged citizens of this country. Every vice like drugs and deviant sex exist in all segments of our society, from rich to poor - what is not fair, but true, is these crimes will not have much of a visible impact on wealthy communities while they are devastating to disadvantaged communities. All of the problems related to people entering the country by illegal means - and all the misrepresentation of the issue by politicians and bloggers are fomenting sentiments that will bring us closer to that race/class war you believe is inevitable. I hope you, Neo, would not even add a very tiny bit of fuel to that fire by writing irresponsibly on the topic. The war is not inevitable - but more possible when disinformation is shared.

Anonymous said...

While I'm on a roll, HWA was bombastic in making false predictions that mislead too many people.
To say a race/class war is inevitable reminded me of HWA's bombastic style of making false predictions and misleading people.
So naturally, I recoiled in disgust.
Neo, you don't want to get into the prophecy game by predicting war.
The world is not big enough for another prophet, as long as we have the Prophet Bob.

Anonymous said...

Going to the feast will kill you, so don't go.

Anonymous said...

Anon (7:58)

I am not claiming to speak with some special prophetic inspiration about a possible race/class war. This was just a secular observation based on what I understand from the news media. Such a war is not inevitable but is, in my opinion, high likely. "A house divided againsts itself cannot stand." The USA has long been divided but only one time before as divided as it is now.

I do not expect the USA to finish this century looking anything like what it did in the last century. In particular, I do not believe it will continue as a democratic republic. What we are seeing, with the rejection of science, conspiracy theories, the abandonment o fact as a basis for truth, the anti-vaxxers and the rise of populist autocracy, is the opening shots of his insane dissolution. Look in the rearview mirror at history, every great Gentile society has collapsed.

And, of course, Trump and his political bedfellows like White immigrants. They like anybody who is White, including Vladimir Putin and his crowd. I do not dispute that. I believe illegal immigration is a serious problem but it is not solved by fomenting hate. War is created by fomenting hate. This isn't rocket science.

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Anonymous said...

7.58 AM
We also have the Profit Dave.

Anonymous said...

I need to post this anonymously to protect my friends.

In response to (and support of) NEO's post about the roots of much of the current "political" discourse, be it vaccines or whatever, I would like to make one comment. I have many friends who are Trump supporters from our COG culture, and with whom I have conversations about current right/left issues in the USA. I know my sample is small, but FWIW, almost every conversation, after a few more general comments, ends up with comments about some event or issue that (to them) involves race, and it is stated that way. Make of that what you will- I have come to my own conclusions. :(

Anonymous said...

In the media there are very few issues in which race is not included; of course race would be brought up!

Anonymous said...

Why is it after reading this I don't believe a word you've written.

Anonymous said...

Anon 515,

What issues, pray tell, don't have race brought into them. Everything is about race. CRT tells us the system is racist. If the system is racist, it will be hard to find something within the system that does not touch on race.

Seriously, provide any substantial matter that does not have race brought into it. Race was brought into this thread of covid cases after/during Tabernacles. Nothing seems exempt.

Anonymous said...

For a group of people who are recovering from life in the autocratic ACOGs, it is absolutely astounding the number of directives being given to people about how they should live their lives on this forum.

Anonymous said...

Yes, race is a favorite tool of the political class. Perhaps none more guilty than Joe Biden. Enjoy a few of his verbatim statements. And before the apologists come along, imagine any of these statements coming out of Donald Trump's mouth and what the reaction would be.

2020: 'If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black'.

In 2007 he referred to Barack Obama as “the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean.”

2006: “You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

In 1977, he said forced busing to desegregate schools would cause his children to “grow up in a racial jungle.”

Anonymous said...

anon 8.51

Yes, race is a big issue now, but in America, it has always been so, and as Hamlet said, "Aye there's the rub."

It may be easy to miss the point NEO made, and that I supported. Everything (imo) is NOT about race, but for many of my friends, that is what it boils down to if one talks to them long enough (and it does not usually take very long).

There is a large portion of America that pretends to be taking a position on this or that specific issue, when in reality it has more to do with a perceived loss of privilege/opportunity connected to ethnicity. That could certainly be a point worth considering, but if so, let's actually talk about it, specifically, rather than tangentially and deceptively via other "issues".

If one really cares about this, please read "It Was All a Lie" by Stewart Stevens (an insider who knows) or any number of other historical treatments. There is nothing new under the sun, unfortunately.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 8:53

If you know someone who is brainwashed, should you just ignore their pathetic condition? Or should you try to spring them from prison? The ethical weight is heaviest in the latter idea. I don't think anyone here wants someone to leave an autocratic ACOG just to become enslaved by another organization. The idea is that people should be permitted the freedom to think on their own. That way they learn how not to succumb to bad ideas. When Trump ascended to the Presidency, I knew that there would be Armstrongists who would join Trump's base. If you succumb to Herbert, it is easy to succumb to Donald. If someone says "think for yourself!!" it is not really telling them how to live their lives. You did yell at them, but you want them to be free. It pivots on the content of what you say.

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Anonymous said...

The censorship is killing far more people than "covid."

Anonymous said...

Neo: First you say a race/class war is inevitable - now you are flipping to it’s not inevitable; but possible based on the news media. Unfortunately, there are many in the news media who engage in fomenting hate. I can see these reckless media folks have sucked you in - as evidenced by your earlier media-echoed proclamation that a race/class war is inevitable - apparently you believed it enough the first time to write it and don’t see it as a harmful statement, promoting war over peace.

More of your race-baiting is evidenced by your statement, "And, of course, Trump and his political bedfellows like White immigrants." Yes, he certainly does enjoy hot, white, immigrants, and has made a least two his bedmates. I don’t want to come off as a Trump-supporter but I believe Trump is not biased against any group of immigrants – but does disdain illegal immigration. I’m glad Trump is gone, for many reasons; however, I chose to base my beliefs about Trump’s beliefs about race on the many people of color who have spent time with Trump and proclaim he is not a racist. Hershel Walker’s speech at the RNC convention was moving; I chose to believe his viewpoint over any media figure vying for ratings or accolades. I also tend to believe people like Walker more than those who make bombastic statements, within an agenda, that stirs up hatred.

Coincidently, I put Trump in that distasteful, bombastic group, just like HWA, and unfortunately, sometimes you too, Neo.

I can’t fathom someone as bombastic as HWA having much influence today in the realm of religion – too many people are turned off by that style. I hope the same is true in the world of politics - I'm certainly turned off by Trump's style. However, I'm married to a hot, brown, immigrant whose support for Trump embarrasses me.

I’m sure the media is pleased that people, such as you, have echoed their statements about the inevitability of a race/class war. You are entitled to your opinions on Trump; but I think its intriguing that you prefer to form your opinions based on the beliefs of others (the media) who don’t like Trump, rather than those who know him.

Your statements about your outlook for the country do sound like the doom and gloom of HWA and the Prophet Bob – and you sound like their supporters who repeat their screed as if it is inevitably true. I agree that there’s a good chance of bad stuff in our future. However, I also have hope that the majority of people will chose to support leaders who foster peace, good-will, and opportunity for all – rather than those who originate, or repeat, odious statements that stir mistrust, and foment hate. Neo, give peace a chance!

Anonymous said...

I do not understand some of the poster's hypocrisy. They have no problems trashing members who have conservative beliefs and the former Trump administration but they NEVER say anything negative about Biden's bumbling ways, his & his son's corruption getting bribes from foreign companies and governments or their outright horrible handling of the immigration crisis.

Anonymous said...

Neo: I agree with your premise displayed at October 11, 2021 at 4:30 PM - but, turn it inside and see yourself. You blindly believed that a race/class war was inevitable and were eager to spout that view. You fell for the odd, negative, and false predictions of Armstrongism and made them your truth. Likewise, you fell for the media's insistence that a race/class war is inevitable. Yes, I would say that in the same manner, many Armstrongist are prone to also swallowing and repeating the bizarre rhetoric of Trump.

One thing so evil about the prognostication of the media/Neo about the inevitability of a race/class war is that it is billions of drops of water, dropping slowly into people's psyche, torturing them with thoughts that their neighbors hate them, they are doomed, there's no hope. I find that to be very much like the evil of Armstrongism.

I have advice for you, not a demand; Neo, stop spreading the media mantra of hate, think for yourself and give peace a chance!

Anonymous said...

219,
I didn’t miss Neo’s point in the slightest nor your support of it. You perhaps missed my point as you draw the issues that touch on race down to what “you” think are the issues that involve race.
While that is of interest in learning more about you as an indivdual, it seems to ignore the point that it is the views of the media and prominent political/cultural leaders that is the issue, not your particular views.

It sounds akin to a discussion on the life of an alcoholic and one person keeps pointing out how alcohol is affecting almost all aspects of the alcoholic’s life and you come away believing the person you were speaking to is fixated on alcohol and that you don’t think alcohol is an issue in many areas of life. That’s all well and good, but your perception/perspective is not the issue. The issue is how alcohol permeates almost every issue in the alcoholic’s life.
So too we have a media and social/political influencers that see race in everything and maybe your friends recognize this and are commenting on that effect…not theirs or your beliefs on the actual effect of race on issues.

Again, I ask, name a substantial issue which people can affect that does not have a media/political/social angle bringing race into it. I’ll wait.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (5:36)

I retract my initial statement that race and class war is inevitable. I was being unjustifiably categorical. The alternative that the future of the USA will be different from what I expect has at least a snowball's chance in hell of happening. Based on that, I revised my view in a later comment. This is all my personal opinion. I do not put it forth as anything else. I am incomparable to The Great Disinformer because I am not a political rabble rouser, an autocrat or a White Nationalist. I am incomparable to HWA because I do not claim to be an oracle of God or advocate British-Israelism (a form of White Nationalism). And unlike both of them, I am not asking you to subscribe to my views or support me financially.

My introduction of race into the progression of debate was just a means of asserting my thinking about the etiology of vaccination bias. As far as saying that I am race-baiting you are wrong and don't seem to understand what that term means. The mere introduction of the concept as a valid national issue is not race-baiting. I believe that The Donald and his cronies are all White Nationalists with whatever that does to their views on race. The fact that his base includes some Blacks and Browns is not exonerating. It just shows how contrarian some people can be. I am not going to argue the racism of the Trumpites because it is well established in sources available to you. Your gratuitous mitigation of it is a reflection of the problem with a large part of the USA today. People mistakenly believe they are going to peacefully co-reside with Trumpists. Janary 6th was the initial and relatively modest disaffirmation of that view.

You do not need to ask me to "give peace a chance." That is a question for Donald Trump and his ardent, truth denying White Nationalist following. His base consists of people who are scared spitless of the burgeoning population of Blacks and Browns in America. (Review the recent history of South Africa for parallel events.) Vaccination is just a proxy item in their portfolio of support for White Nationalism. The anti-vaxx movement, for the most part, has no biological legs - it has only populist political legs. (I have been vaccinated and I am still waiting to hear Bill Gates' voice in my head. And I don't like Microsoft any more than I did.)

The future of the USA is Orwellian. In fact, the country is already fairly well down that path. I agree with Fiona Hill - we are now internally in a state of Cold War. Big Brother exists for 74 million worshipful American voters and, as one would sadly expect, some of them are Armstrongists. I wish I could chuckle and tell you all these devotees are not dangerous. But they are.

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Anonymous said...

NEO

The anti-vaxx movement, for the most part, has no biological legs - it has only populist political legs.

NEO -- are you asserting this position as a trained medical professional?

Just curious because you speak with such authority.

Let's put your credentials up against,say, Dr. Peter McCullough.

Please refute the data in his presentation from this week. I'd be interested in your expert opinion.

https://rumble.com/vnfwq7-dr.-peter-mccullough-presents-bold-challenge-to-those-who-crush-our-rights.html

Anonymous said...

I believe that The Donald and his cronies are all White Nationalists with whatever that does to their views on race. The fact that his base includes some Blacks and Browns is not exonerating.

Earlier you said you identify yourself as a centrist or possibly somewhat conservative. The statement above is just laughable. Complete cognitive dissonance.

While I don't agree with every policy, statement, behavior or temperament espoused by the former President, something about what he stood for resonates with the highest percentage of Latinos and blacks for a Republican in history.

And yet you're able and willing to paint some 70 million Americans, many of them people of color, as racists (presumably your use of white nationalist is a softer way to pedal this).

What an interesting and narrow minded conclusion you've arrived at. I'm guessing you haven't actually spoken to any Latinos or blacks who have supported the President. Because if you had, they would have talked about things like border security, fiscal responsibility, the debt, personal liberties, size of government, choice in education, censorship, freedom of speech...

All issues that Americans can have in common without having to resort to a racist world view.

Anonymous said...

Anonyomous 1:06

I am not a medical expert but I rely on the work of medical experts. Just like you. You are not a medical expert but you rely on Dr. Peter McCullough. MedPage Today says of McCullough in a headline:

"Lawsuit: Doc Using Old Baylor Affiliation While Dishing COVID Vax Falsehoods"

You people always show up with fringe opinions gleaned from right-wing information outlets and expect to be believed. The deception doesn't work. Anyone can scan the headlines on "America Out Loud Network" for a few seconds and see the exact alignment of their political sentiments.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:21

Uh, er, cognitive dissonance is not a form of critique of the logic of an argument but rather a theory about thinking and behavior. Yes, I have spoken with Latinos who support The Donald. I sympathize with their plight. They have not gotten a fair shake in our society and they thought The Donald was going to make their lot in life better. If they are astute, my guess is that now they are wiping the egg off their faces.

I used the term "White Nationalist" because it is an accurate description. It is not equivalent to the term racist as you have suggested. Many White Nationalists are racist, however. They are a motley crew bound together by the belief that the interests of White people are in jeopardy - specifically because of the rise of the minority populations in America. The 74 million are a composite. Some may not be extreme White Nationalists but they are on the spectrum.

I have opinions just like you do. To the extent that we have defined positions, we can both be criticized as being narrow minded. Your positive attitude towards Latinos would be regarded as extremely narrow minded by many people among the 74 million. I have talked to such people. They would just classify you as an regrettable one-off.

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Anonymous said...

This will sadly get worst. The possibility of Covid infections rising among the Feastival goers is strong.
Local church gatherings after the Feast are prime targets for outbreaks of the virus also.
This virus is real and can cause harm and take lives. Have listened to some survivers of the virus and it is not pleasant to listen too. Keep safe everyone.

Anonymous said...

The dude or dudette who referenced Dr. Peter McCullogh forgot to vet him as a source. So, I'll do it. Read his Wikipedia page. Skip down to the section on Covid 19 misinformation. Citing this guy as any sort of authority on anything is absolutely laughable, and is indicative of a complete cluelessness as to how to do research. But, that's what is wrong with the MAGA crowd, and is what continues to divide the country.

Anonymous said...

The latest update on this probably exceeds the worst any of us could have imagined. But, then we have come to realize that worst case scenarios do generally come upon people who willfully ignore solutions.

But, it's not only the ACOGs who ignore solutions. For months there have been reports of an economy that has not been able to fully recover, because business owners cannot find people who want to work. And, yet, the solution is streaming across our southern border in huge numbers every day! People who actually do have the will, and the skills to do most of the work that is available.

Anonymous said...

The reports here on Covid cases are the tip of the iceberg. All COG prayer request social media is full of requests and discussion of many brethren throughout the various groups ill with Covid-19.

Sweetblood777 said...

Wow, 98 comments!

A hot topic if ever I saw one on Banned.

Anonymous said...

Neo: You can have your opinions and say what you want, although I wish you would learn what Trump also needs to learn - words have consequences. I don't believe it's sufficient to detract your false, hatred-laden statement - I think you should disavow it and do some introspective work to discover it's roots and branches in your life.

Just like many Armstrongists will blindly follow Trump, after first falling for HWA, you do the exact same in your thoughtless following of the media. The statement about the inevitability of a race/class war is just one of the media conjectures that has permeated your soul to the point you would repeat it in this tread as undeniable truth.

In a parallel to Armstrongism, if we could ask "Mr. Media" why he said that a race/class war is inevitable, I'm sure "Mr. Media" would reply that he never said that. You and I would both say to "Mr. Media" - oh yes you have said exactly that millions of times and in millions of ways.

I do think that there is something in the make-up of Armstrongists that make them more susceptible to falling for hoaxes. Connected to that phenomenon is the exertion of effort to deny and stay to the course, when evidence of the hoax appears. I think it's easy to see in others I know - so I'm always on the lookout for that in my life.

BP8 said...

Anon 5:36

"Give peace a chance"? Do you really believe that or are you just honoring John Lennon's recent birthday? Since Scripture testifies that the nations don't know the way to peace, it's humorous watching the feeble attempts to achieve the process. But yes I know, that's all an atheist can hope for, right?

But a word of encouragement! Try harder!!! It's one way you can get rid of God and the broken scripture once and for all. Come on "world", you can do it!!!

Anonymous said...

Why have these Armstrongists gone to the ICU - that doesn't compute?

A good Armstrongist (unless you're Armstrong himself) eschews doctors & medical science!

Anonymous said...

Report from Edmonton PCOG site: infections have happened and they are trying to keep it hush hush

James said...


October 12, 2021 at 6:33 PM
Anonymous said...
The dude or dudette who referenced Dr. Peter McCullogh forgot to vet him as a source. So, I'll do it. Read his Wikipedia page. Skip down to the section on Covid 19 misinformation.
------------------------

And who wrote that? Fauci?
Anon, you yourself has not a clue on performing research. One does not decide on a article on wiki. One does not decide in a day. Like science is never settled, research can be the same way. Time and patience is paramount.

I might add that wiki is notoriously unreliable.

Anonymous said...

Armstrongites? Anti-Vax?? yeah..that sounds right

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:28 PM
Would not wish this virus on anyone.
Would be interesting to know if your comment is true about the Edmonton PCoG site.
I would not be surprised in the least if there was an outbreak and a following hush hush campaign.

RSK said...

Saw an "Osteopathic Natural Holistic Doctor" cited as an authority the other day...

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

I liked the comment about vetting sources, and many of the commentators in this thread need to heed this advice. One of the first things that we learn in a high school or college entry level course in composition or research is that all sources are NOT created equal. For instance, those sources which originate in professional or scientific consensus are superior to those contributed by amateurs and outliers. Moreover, we should all understand that the vast majority of us are only evaluating and using the research of others - very few of us are actually conducting original basic, qualitative, quantitative or applied research. Scientists do research, and most of us are consumers of that research. In other words, surfing conservative websites is NOT research!

As for faith, I seem to remember a place where Satan told Christ to cast himself from the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem, because God "will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone." We are told that Christ replied, "You must not test the Lord your God." It seems to me that attending a large gathering of people without any protective measures and saying that God will protect you is the equivalent of Satan's temptation of Christ! We shouldn't be putting God to the test! A little common sense goes a long way!

Finally, with regard to personal freedom, we have always understood that an ordered democratic society must be willing to sacrifice some measure of personal freedom for the good of the wider community. Likewise, on the subject of individual rights, we have all generally understood that your rights are subject to being limited/curtailed when they begin to infringe on or prevent the free exercise of mine. And, if we reject these truths, the result is anarchy - NOT freedom! Hence, we have required folks to be vaccinated and wear coverings in public places for many many years now. This stuff is not new. It isn't some modern effort or conspiracy to curtail rights or freedoms!

Anonymous said...

7.58 AM
Herbs church has twisted the meaning of "nations don't know the way of peace."
The way of peace is the ten commandments. But the WOG in their campaign of exalting themselves by belittling everyone else, insist it means that nations are academically ignorant of God's way. They are not. Rather, like Herb ministers, they believe that it's bully morality that really works.

Anonymous said...

Hey BP8: I'm the Anonymous who wrote the repeated encouragement to Neo to give peace a chance.
I was intrigued by your statement:
"But yes I know, that's all an atheist can hope for, right?"

I'm happy to say that I am not an ashiest; I am a Christian.
Although, since I am not a COGlodyte, I'm guessing you would not recognize me as a being a real Christian.
So, I will just have to rely on the the words of Savior Jesus, to identify me a child of God:
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" Matthew 5:9

Your statement made me remember how in WCG and in Spokesmens Club whenever a problem in the world was discussed, the only acceptable answer was that the problem would need to wait until the Kingdom to be fixed. Ultimately, there is truth in that COG auto-response. However, Christians, are called on to take care of those in needs, here and now (I can supply scriptures, if you'd like). The COGs, on the other hand, deny the biblical instruction to help the world and instead, indoctrinate their members with the instruction that their only role in helping the world is financially support "the Work".

I believe that as a Christian, my responsibility is to get vaccinated in hope that will be what's most beneficial to my neighbor (reducing risk of infecting those I have contact with). However, I don't believe that what I see as the right thing to do regarding loving neighbors through COVID is necessarily the right thing for everyone.

As I stated in earlier posts, I think statements related to a race/class war are hugely hurtful to people in general, but most particularly harmful to those who are racial minorities in the US. Those kind of statements wear people down with fears that everyone hates them, there's no hope for them, and there's no hope for the country.

Those fears are the same fears that all of the false, evil predictions of the COGs produce (in the few who listen to the COGs). There is no good purpose in telling suffering people about the inevitable race/class war or any of the false COG predictions - when instead, you can tell them about peace, love, redemption, and righteousness offered by Jesus.

I'm guessing you did not like me trying to stop the promotion of the idea that a race/class war is inevitable, because those "rumors of war" that Neo was pushing are COG-proof that we must be living in the last days.

Regardless of whether or not we're living in the last days, or whether or not the US does succumb to a race/class war, Christians are called to promote peace and care for other, while not being troubled by events, as all our hope is in Jesus.

So, I'll close with these words of Jesus in John 14:27:
"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

Anonymous said...

Guess what...this just in, there are over 98k new cases in the US today. Shhh, don't tell anyone, it is a secret.

Oh for crying out loud people, you'd think that keeping the Feast is the only way that CoVid is spreading. Hahaha, get a life!

Anonymous said...

"There is no fear or hysteria to it- just empathy for other people."

When has the Church of God ever taught empathy?

Anonymous said...

“Most instructive.”

And, insightful.

Anonymous said...

4.40 PM
People who are vaccinated can still contract and pass on the COViD virus. The vaccine only suppresses the symptoms.

Btw, why do you think that doctors and other health care workers are quitting their jobs rather than submitting to being vaccinated?
Do you think they don't know the risks involved with the vaccine?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:10

Every time I respond to one of your comments you get what I have written hopelessly garbled. I believe you have a serious problem in following logical discourse. You seem to be tilting with windmills. I don't mean to be harsh. You may be an older person who is losing some acuity. But it is not productive for me to respond to your comments any longer.

Bye.

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Anonymous said...

That's nothing RSK I've sat through a sermon that cited Donald Trump's opinion on Covid as an authority.

Anonymous said...

7:44, you are missing out on some of the fun. Go get your shots so you can catch a mild form of the virus and then give it to all the whack job refuseniks who are ruining the country!

Anonymous said...

Neo
4.10 smells of attack-guy. Kevin McDoodle or some-thing. I gave up on him way back.

Anonymous said...

Hello NEO: I'm the give peace a chance Anonymous; I apologize for offending you and I accept your word that I’ve misunderstood your posts. You are clearly an intelligent man who aspires to do good; hallelujah, thank God for that!

You are correct, I am in that stage of life in which acuities are waning. Every time I re-read something I've written, I'm appalled by the number of typos; that's something that did not happen ten years ago.

I applaud the campaign that AARP is engaged in to make seniors aware of hoaxes; hoaxes abound and unfortunately seniors tend to fall for them at higher rates – even though all age groups can be deceived. As someone who has family and friends currently affected by hoaxes perpetrated by both Armstrongism and the media, I'm hyper-sensitive to what I perceive to be abusive.

I also agree that a good rule of thumb, for everyone, is to not respond to any of my comments.

May peace be with you!

Anonymous said...

Are the COVID shots working? Sort through the data and figure it out for yourself.

https://conservativeplaylist.com/2021/10/13/are-the-covid-shots-working/

BP8 said...

Anon 536/440

I'm not here to judge your Christianity for I endorse many of the points you make. Christians are called to promote peace and care for others, to take care of those in need, to love their neighbor. But this is a far cry from promoting "world peace" or trying to "make this WORLD a better place"!

This WORLD and its corresponding systems have, according to scripture, been judged, sentenced, and is passing away. Our leaders don't know or care to know the " way of peace"! They are the one's promoting this fear rhetoric and Babylonian confusion, for their own agenda. As a Christian you should be aware of the many negative texts about this "world" and the many deceivers in it! Just because HWA had his own spin on some of this doesn't make it less true.

Your own scriptural quote, John 14:27, makes this critical distinction between what Christ gives and what the "world" gives. Thank God! The poor atheist? He's stuck with this mess!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (11:30)

I recognize the tongue-in-cheek tone to your statement. The awful truth is that the Kaiser Family Foundation issued a study indicating that 90,000 unvaccinated people died over the summer of 2021. Almost twice a many that died in the lengthy Vietnam War.

It would be poetic justice if the 90,000 were comprised of only "refuseniks", but alas we do not live in a fair world. So we have the regrettable death of innocents in some cases. Now data is emerging indicating that the vaccines do reduce transmission rates.

The anti-vaxxer community used to be a very tiny collection of people who had religious objections. I should add have doubts about vaccines in general. I know of adverse
outcomes. But there are no risk-free solutions. Everything in the secular realm is a cost-benefit-risk decision - a decision that should be made with the best of information because the stakes are so high.

But the vaccination decision has been polticized beyond all recognition. Forbes Magazine recently reported the following breakdown on the political orientation of those who say they will never get vaccinated:

Trump supporters 47%
Biden supporters 10%

Yet everyone gets the same education about Germ Theory in the public school system unless, maybe, if they attend some one-off evangelical private school. Germ Theory is what it is. The data speaks concerning the general efficacy of vaccination. So why do people place their lives at risk to do obeisance to The Donald? Because some people want everything The Donald says to be true. He is their dream come true and they will not hear of any kind of deconstruction. Unfortunately, this includes some Armstrongists. That is a easy game to play in politics but when it reaches into the domain of a hard science like biology, you can end up with 90,000 people dead in three months and a post-Feast mortality statistic. And more to come.

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Anonymous said...

One of several benefits that would be seen, if one could peer into the alternate reality of Trump still being in the White House, would be people seeing that the vaccine is not the political issue for those not getting the vaccine that many make it out to be. The Dems downplayed the vaccine early on for political theater. Most that are adamant against having the vaccine now were adamant then as well even while Trump was touting his administration's actions in getting a vaccine to market so quickly. The vaccine was viewed by Trump as a feather in his cap, to now state that Trump supporters aren't taking the vaccine out of allegiance to Trump is foolish.
This is not to say I don't think conservatives would be marginally more likely to get vaccinated if Trump was in the White House, but the fact of the matter is that many believed correctly that the covid information disseminated and the coverage of it was awful and they lost confidence in the government's advice on the matter. Unelected bureaucrats have muddled this whole thing.
70% have been vaccinated and a large proportion that haven't been have already had it. The case numbers have substantially dropped and it seems that should speed up soon. I hope so. Winter is coming, but most are not expecting a substantial spike.

RSK said...

Despite the popularity of FB memes suggesting otherwise, prior to the proposed DOJ mandates, only about a third of US hospitals were requiring their employees get vaccinated. This business of "healthcare workers quitting to avoid vaccination" has been seriously overblown on social media. Judging from the healthcare workers I know, I'd have to say far more are quitting from burnout than any vaccination.

Anonymous said...

It is not anti-vax to not take the clot shot which by the FDA's own website admits it "experimental". Also not approved by their own admission.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (6:00)

I checked out the website you recommend and found an article written by Dr. Joseph Mercola. This is what Wikipedia states (with documentation) about him:

"He was warned by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in February 2021 for selling fake COVID-19 cures.[40][41] In March, the Center for Countering Digital Hate named Mercola as one of the 12 most prominent sources of COVID misinformation in a report later cited by US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.[42] In September his accounts on YouTube were removed by the company for breaking their policies on COVID-19 misinformation.[43]"

I also found a big glossy of The Donald holding up a commemorative coin with the following legend:

"Trump Supporters: Claim Your Free Trump Commemorative Coin"

This is not a conservative website as its URL implies. It is a populist autocracy website masquerading as a conservative website. Do you really think that you can come to this blog and covertly advocate Trump and not have anybody analyze what you are doing. That may work in Splinterdom where few do any research but not here.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous (1:43) wrote, "It is not anti-vax to ..."

It's time to wake up. It really is. There is a struggle for constitutional democracy going on and you are on the wrong side. The anti-constitutional forces have made Covid vaccination the proxy for support of Donald and his populist autocracy.

The rarity of the blood clot issue is reflected in the statement from the CDC that the Johnson and Johnson vaccine generates this problem "at a rate of about seven cases per 1 million vaccinated women between 18 and 49 years old." This is lower than the rate of blood clotting issues produced by the virus itself. Your use of the term "clot shot" is intended to be misleading and alarmist. It is a purely anti-vaxxer statement.

The vaccines are experimental based on the fact that they use a new methodology - messenger RNA. This does not mean that have been produced in a castle in remote transylvania by a mad scientist with wild hair and a dirty lab coat. The vaccines have been put through rigorous protocols and were approved by the FDA on August 23d. The enormous data collection concerning the efficacy of the vaccines under emergency authorization lays to rest issues about the validity of the methodology. This does not mean the vaccines are risk free. Everything bears some risk including your breakfast this morning. Your use of the term "expermental" is intended to be misleading and alarmist. It is a purely anti-vaxxer statement.

I think it is odd that you people with a Trump agenda think you can lay a phony comment bomb on a blog like this and have nobody look into it. The people who take this blog seriously do research. Unlike you and your associates, "Donald says" is not sufficient authority here.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:45

Let me clarify that I very much believe in peace. But as you know, peace will not happen until Jesus takes matters in hand. In the interim, between now and the Parousia, I am not sure it is possible to be too pessmistic about mankind. We do have a history. But I will own up to being overstated in my cynicism at times.

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Anonymous said...

I think it is so funny that several of my comments have not been published, in response to Paul talking about people shouldn't have gone to the Feast because some came back with a tube shoved down their throat. Not sure why my comments have been left out. You cannot dispute one thing saying it is a super spreader, when people are going to sporting events, other mass gatherings and work everyday. QUIT blaming the Feast. Everyone has to make his or her own decision of where to go.

Anonymous said...

Rapid City had 756 registered, not 270.

Anonymous said...

It is not anti-vax to not take the clot shot which by the FDA's own website admits it "experimental".

Notice how the anti-vax crowd used the "It's experimental, not approved" excuse until the Pfizer shot made it through the regular process. Now they aren't satisfied with that. They'll keep moving the goalposts, making new excuses and forgetting old ones, because their real issue is deeper than any temporarily expedient excuse.

Anonymous said...

Any info available on those who have caught Covid through Feast attendance at the PCoG.
Bet that is a ‘secret’, lol.
Sadly catching this virus is not fun for everyone involved.

Anonymous said...

Keeping the feast sites open isn't about the money, in my opinion. We can't stop living as a result of fear. It's not the cases but instead the deaths that should be looked at in determining the overall picture. Sad, but many people have died from the flu over the years. We live in a deteriorating world. This thing was created in a lab. Who knows what's in store. We long for the kingdom and the restoration.

Anonymous said...

Taking proper precautions isn't "living in fear"

What I want to know is when some of these people who complain about masks and mandates are going to realize that they already live under restrictions such as not being able to smoke in the workplace, or most common areas, this for the health of the public. Rights have been restricted at the airports and are enforced by the TSA. This is for the safety of all air travelers. If all readers were to think about it, I bet we could come up with many additional areas of daily life which are already restricted by mandates and have been for years. Early on, someone got a bug up their ass about this virus, and the legitimate health practices which were instituted to combat it. It could have been totally under control at this point in time. There is rapidly increasing anger on the part of those who have taken the proper steps against those who continue to refuse.

Anonymous said...

Now that virtually all the non-experts have quoted all the “real” experts who don’t know what they are talking about, it’s time to ask a really serious question.

WHAT is “the SOUND of one hand CLAPPING?”

Anonymous said...

@Paul Ray

Why does Israel (almost completely vaccinated) have the highest per capita infection rate in the world?

Why is it that 70% of the hospitalizations in UK are vaccinated individuals?

Why (according to the DoD-Medicare) are 60% of the serious hospitalizations (65 & over) in USA vaccinated individuals?

Taiwan recently reported that there have been more deaths from the vaccine than from COVID itself.

Pfizer admits that any protection from their vaccine wanes after a couple of months, so why are people risking their lives for a few months of "protection"?

If you want the shot, take it. Leave everyone else alone.

Anonymous said...

The press reported that vaccine mandates are now legal for military, healthcare workers, college students and employees in many industries. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio has now required the vaccine for all teachers and school staff. The Pentagon is proceeding with its mandate for all military service members.

But there are several bizarre aspects to the FDA approval that will prove confusing to those not familiar with the pervasiveness of the FDA’s regulatory capture, or the depths of the agency’s cynicism.

First, the FDA acknowledges that while Pfizer has “insufficient stocks” of the newly licensed Comirnaty vaccine available, there is “a significant amount” of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID vaccine — produced under Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) — still available for use.

The FDA decrees that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine under the EUA should remain unlicensed but can be used “interchangeably” (page 2, footnote 8) with the newly licensed Comirnaty product.

Second, the FDA pointed out that the licensed Pfizer Comirnaty vaccine and the existing, EUA Pfizer vaccine are “legally distinct,” but proclaims that their differences do not “impact safety or effectiveness.”
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/mainstream-media-fda-approval-pfizer-vaccine/

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (7:29)

We do in fact live in an evil world. But should we throw gasoline on the fire? Is it ethical to act irresponsibly because everything is going to burn down anyway? I am reminded of the evangelicals who came to President George W. Bush during his administration and told him that his policies that negatively impacted the environment were no problem because God was going to rebuild the world anyway. That is ethically bankrupt and denies the stewardship of the earth that God has entrusted to mankind.

Deaths are correlated to cases. This is not just the flu. Whether or not it was created in a lab with gain of function does not alter our response to it. We must live but we must also fear - appropriate fear can protect life. All of these factors go into the decision about attending the FoT in person or electronically. Not every leader or preacher in Splinterdom understands these issues so the decision defaults to the individual. If you are an Armsrongist, the OT quarantine laws are, putatively, written on your heart and mind.

This is not the time for a fraught engrossment with libertarian free will; it is the time for science.

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Anonymous said...

The risk of long COVID syndrome is pervasive in 20-40% of those cases in those over 40…it’s not just deaths - people are severely crippled for months and now (as data is available) years as this drags out…not to mention all of the spreading these feast attendees do to others - there is a pervasive denial mechanism built into followers: how they willfully and also blindly ignore failed prophecy after prophecy and swallow a new stone of destiny - they will deny at first they even have it - lie to those around them (this is cloaked by the PCOG acolyte gods will etc) and infect and spread the stuff… sad sad sad

Anonymous said...

I don't know why they just do not have people come down to a location(s),and listen to the services on their PCs, live streaming the services. It is still a convocation, people are still observing the Feast and people can meet for dinner in small groups or go places on their own. WHY would God want infected people in one room when he quaranteens? This is a special situation and the churches can make this decision to protect the people. It's called LOVE.

Anonymous said...

NEO 11:30

It would be poetic justice if the 90,000 were comprised of only "refuseniks", but alas we do not live in a fair world.

That’s pretty callous. Even for you.

Kamala Harris and Joe Biden are both on video saying they wouldn’t take and wouldn’t trust the vaccine.

You are correct it’s political.

Anonymous said...

The problem is that the leaders of these ACOGs were not allowed to watch Star Trek while growing up. Anyone who did would know what happens to people who attempt to fight science. But, no worries. The gene pool needs occasional cleaning to remain vital and healthy!

Anonymous said...

I think I'd have more sympathy for the Covid Coglodytes if they had been Christian Scientists.

Anonymous said...

It is heartbreaking the amount of covid cases and deaths. Is this what God wants every Feast of Tabernacles ?

The time has surely come that Ministry who are vaccinated should step forth and try and turn the tide from within the church.

Who died and declared Alex Jones as a prophet from God? The anti vaxxers are trying to dominate the COG at the moment.

Opinionated said...

"The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than cowardly."

- Robert Anton Wilson

This answers the question of why in the face of evidence, liberal pro clot shot advocates double down on their mistaken views.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:16

Not only is that statement callous but it is brutal. I don't want anyone to die but we are perforce in brutal circumstances. We have many people who have been co-opted by a populist autocrat who are now waging a war against constitutional democracy and are using anti-vaxx polemics as a proxy argument for their political cause. The result is that they are killing people through disinformation. And nobody is putting them in jail. Maybe they have earned a little callousness.

I prefer not to make such statements. I also prefer not to live in this kind of world for what that is worth. Unfortunately, we do live in a world in which force must be met with countervailing force, lack of ethics with ethics. While it is deplorable that there are people who will not help themselves by getting vaccinated, it is even more deplorable that their political intentions have resulted in a growing number of innocent collateral victims.

The statement about Biden and Harris is a little bit of contrived disinformation cited out of context and does not deserve an answer.

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Anonymous said...

NEO 7:10

This is not the time for a fraught engrossment with libertarian free will; it is the time for science.

That's a frightening statement, and I can't agree with it in its totality. Great horrors have been committed on people through history in the name of science. Surely there is much we don't know, both about Covid-19 and the experimental drugs we are calling vaccines. There must be a middle ground between science and the preservation of free will, for once lost, it is virtually impossible to regain.

Anonymous said...

Not every scientist is a Dr. Mengele, 8:17. And not every experiment similar to Tuskegee, or the nuke blasts on live soldiers in the 1950s. In fact, these types of incidents, though abominable, are relatively few and far between as compared to the real and tangible advances made by science over the centuries.

I knew there would be great fallout with Covid 19 and vaccines the minute great numbers of people began repeating the mantra that is was a fake virus perpetuated by the fake news media to unseat the "greatest" (sic) president in the history of the USA. As testing proved that the virus and its antibodies could be detected, there was a switch to "It's no worse than a cold or the flu". As the hospitals were overcrowded with dying victims on respirators, this same crowd began speculating that the stats were being inflated. Now, attacks on President Trump's vaccine, possibly the crowning glory of his presidency, are being made by people who allegedly support him. There are so many ironies, and points of illogic, it is mind numbing!

One of the symptoms of Covid 19 is actually blood clots. This came out at the same time as the temporary ban of J & J because some vaccinated folks had died of blood clots. Double blind tests would be needed to establish correlation as being causation,

Anonymous said...

Paul Ray, you are blaming the Feast for something that your aunt willingly AND wantingly did. She heeded her calling, just like every single other person that went to the Feast. Each person has to make his or her own decisions. This comes to going to the Feast, going to work, going to the store each week. It is EACH person's decision. It is each person's decision if he or she wants to wear a mask at these events, and it should be each person's decision when choosing to get the vaccine or not. You cannot make any decision for anyone else. You must quit blaming something that someone chose to be apart of. I do feel for all of those who got CoVid at the Feast, because I did get Covid. I did make the choice to attend...and I am vaccinated as well. You are grasping at straws, you are making assumptions and placing the blame on something that you have such a hatred for, that it absolutely makes no sense what you are saying.

Feastgoer said...

A UCG Pastor now has died from COVID-19, in the wake of the Feast.

Randy D'Allesandro, pastor in Chicago and Beloit, WI, died this past Wednesday.

So the argument goes on....

Anonymous said...

Covid is no respecter of persons. We are all vulnerable, inside or outside of Armstrongism.
Sad to hear of these cases, but not entirely unexpected.
More news will follow I am sure as the cases rise and sadly the death toll.
I hope I am wrong, but this virus is not one I would wish on anyone.

Anonymous said...

The is no argument. Citizens are free to decide if to take the vaccination or not. The problem is many are running their lives on a dead mans idea's from a bygone decade, that the dead man never followed in the first place.

Herbert Armstrong lived into his 90s because he had the best medical treatment money could buy. Do you think he took any injection to boost his health?

Anonymous said...

NEO 7:17 am

The statement about Biden and Harris is a little bit of contrived disinformation cited out of context and does not deserve an answer.

Misinformation? That's an argument the left uses to dismiss truths they are uncomfortable with.

The Biden/Harris statements on the vaccine when Trump was in office (documented in video) are perfectly clear in their intent and context.

I would love for you to attempt to explain how that is misinformation.

Anonymous said...

Many commentators here have unironically contributed to creating a religion out of science. Don't you dare question the orthodoxy of the day. Further lost on many of you is that as the science changes and evolves, you deny that the cabal at the leadership of this orthodoxy ever held a different point of view on various topics (masks, different drugs, mandates, to name a few). The analogies to the many ACOG groups and their own leadership having to back pedal over previous statements or positions is astonishing. Add on top of that the near-authoritarian statements that if you don't bend your will to this orthodoxy and its prescriptions for how to live your life (and what medical treatments you should be subjecting yourself to), then you're anathema and might as well be cast out as a deplorable. All this on a forum for people who lament the autocratic, dictatorial way of life espoused in the ACOGs. It's mind-boggling.

nck said...

Did Pastor general Powell attend the Feast?

Nck

Anonymous said...

Hate to say this, but isn’t it ALWAYS the case that people get sick after the FOT? Or am I the only one seeing similarities between a few years back, when a bad flu was going around, and now? Only difference is that we call the flu ‘covid’ now?

Anonymous said...

This sounds more like you inventing a fictional scenario to fuss about.

Anonymous said...

What is a common denominator at the feasts? Over eating. What is a common denominator for the time of year the flu usually hits, in the fall and winter? Over eating. What does the body do when there is a constant set of days/weeks over eating? It begins to clean house, and we call it a cold, the flu, and/or some other label, but it is known overeating is bad for the body. So, what’s in the fall/winter? Over eating for Thanksgiving, Xmas, New Year, parties, parties etc. and additional desserts, drinking, all this you already know. So, holiday or holyday, people over stuff, and the body fights to protect itself.
Finally figuring this out, with some expert help, our family hasn’t had the “flu” or colds for nearly 40 years now. We simply stopped the excess stuffing.
It’s no mystery why people are getting sick during these annual secular and Biblical days. Give it a try, you might like it.

Questeruk said...

Anon October 16, 2021 at 5:34 AM said:-
“Why is it that 70% of the hospitalizations in UK are vaccinated individuals?
Why (according to the DoD-Medicare) are 60% of the serious hospitalizations (65 & over) in USA vaccinated individuals?”

It’s simple mathematics Anon, and it shows that vaccination works!

Suppose 100% of people were vaccinated, then it would be a true statement that ALL hospitalizations are vaccinated people!

Lets take the above UK figure. In the UK currently approx 85% of the population 12 years old and over are vaccinated. So 85% of the population have 70% of the hospitalizations. It follows that 15% have 30% of the hospitalizations.

Let’s do a simple illustration on that, using those figures and percentages. Suppose you have a hospital with 100 beds with Covid patients in them. Then 70 would be vaccinated, and 30 not. The imaginary hospital is in a small town with a population of 1000. 850 have been vaccinated, 150 not. So of the unvaccinated, 30 are in hospital out of 150, or one in 5. Of the vaccinated 70 are in hospital out of 850, or 1 in just over 12. So the vaccinated are around two and a half times less likely to be in hospital.

But that is a very broad brush example, and the reality is that younger people in the population are less likely to be hospitalized, vaccinated or not, and the biggest proportion of the 15% unvaccinated in the UK are the younger ones. This means that the vaccination advantage is actually a fair amount higher that 2 and a half times.

The same logic would apply to the 60% 65 & over. Find out the percentage vaccinated, and do your own calculations. Again, you will find that this proves that vaccination works.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:29

Show me where you got your information. Send me a link.

******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer

Anonymous said...

There is a virus. It has been identified and can be tested for. Possibility of spread can be greatly decreased by the wearing of effective masks, and resistance to catching the virus can be greatly boosted through inoculation with one of several vaccines. If you happen to catch it having been fully vaccinated, your symptoms will be less serious than they would had you not been vaccinated, and most likely you will not die. What is the mystery??? Everything else is just whistling in the wind, or wishful thinking. But, there always has to be someone who has got to be perverse and ruins it for everyone else!

Anonymous said...


A VERY IMPORTANT SPEECH FOR EVERY CANADIAN!

DR. ROGER HODKINSON

OKOTOKS, ALBERTA

OCTOBER 17, 2021



This video is loaded with information about the COVID-19 virus and the COVID-19 vaccines (37 minutes, 24 seconds).

Copy and paste this address into your browser:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/qxAsbqvcpo1c/

Anonymous said...

Common denominator at the feasts overeating? ha ha! Are you serious? the Common denominator is being tired and alcohol consumption. And that's the Ministry.

Anonymous said...

The has been reports in UK of 7% or as high as 14% in hospital with Covid are unvanccinated pregnant women.

Anonymous said...

How many times do you have to be told??? Bitchute is not a valid source of information. To the serious researcher, unless he's researching insanity, that whole site is completely valueless. It's like quoting the Police Gazette used to be, or using the National Enquirer for source material.

Anonymous said...

Colin Powell was fully vaccinated but also had multiple myeloma which is a form of blood cancer. It weakens the immune system.

Anonymous said...

Good Statements 11:42PM

I'll ADD two more warnings on Bitchute:
* Bitchute carries many MANY vidoes praising Ernest Zundel, the infamous Holocaust Denier!!
The kind of Beliefs espoused by Iran, Hamas and many Moslems
* Bitchute carries many MANY videos highlighting David Duke, KKK leader and symbol

Not only is it valueless, it Spews Poison for Hateful minds


Mr. C said...

October 18, 2021 at 11:42 PM "Bitchute is not a valid source of information. "


Who is? Youtube?
The government?

BP8 said...

1142

"Valid source of information?"

Who determines that, YOU, or some other honcho in authority? Remember, those in authority in Christ's day said He was a misfit and spreader of misinformation! Sounds like you 1142!

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at 11:42 PM said...“Bitchute is not a valid source of information.”


Yes it is.

BitChute is just another site for hosting videos. Same as YouTube. There is plenty of garbage and misinformation on both sites.

The important difference is that BitChute does not censor the scientists and doctors that Big Pharma and its drug pushers get YouTube to censor.

Anonymous said...

BitChute does not censor the scientists and doctors that Big Pharma and its drug pushers get YouTube to censor.

You can fix your meals from what you find in a dumpster, or you can go to a fast-food chain, or you can go to a Mom & Pop restaurant. Each of these is a valid approach to finding food. The difference is that Mom & Pop will most likely serve you the highest quality food, the chain will at least give you passable food that hasn't started to rot, while the dumpster will fill your belly with rotted junk that will imperil your health.

Bitchute is the Internet equivalent of a dumpster. Any kind of junk can be put there. Consume it at your own risk. Yes, it can be a challenge to find news outlets that present quality information with little or no bias, or at least with bias you can detect and adjust for. But it's important to remember that stuff often ends up on Bitchute because it is garbage, not because it is some special secret knowledge that others won't acknowledge. Sure, you'll occasionally find some fresh vegetables in the dumpster, but if you aren't careful you'll ruin your health eating rotted garbage.

Anonymous said...

OK, I'll amend my statement. It does have value. Entertainment value for conspiracy theorists, people on the fringe, kookaboos who can't get on You Tube, white supremacists, anti-Semites, and others who delight in spreading disinformation that they don't want fact-checked.

By the way, if one were writing s serious, university quality paper, one would not cite You tube as a reference either.

But, this is probably pissing in the wind for anyone who doesn't know the difference in relative quality of resources.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at 11:42 PM said...“Bitchute is not a valid source of information.”


Big Pharma, which brought us such wonder drugs as Thalidomide (and flipper babies) and Fentanyl (and dead people) might not be the most unbiased source of information either.

Some very real scientists and doctors are concerned that the COVID-19 “vaccines” are not really as “safe and effective” as the mindless propaganda makes them out to be, have already caused tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries, and could possibly even lead to one of the largest die-offs in human history.

After a year and a half of “fear TV” conditioning, we are now at the stage of the agenda where the Dark Side is trying to force everyone to get the vaccines and regular boosters or else lose their ability to get educated or to work -- or even to buy groceries in some countries. You can see how this sort of scam has serious “Mark of the Beast” potential for the future.

The insanity is so great that the vaccinated are now being stirred up to blame and hate the unvaccinated for not getting the untested, experimental vaccines that do not protect the vaccinated who got them.

Anonymous said...

Here's the Harris objection:

https://youtu.be/-dAjCeMuXR0

Here's the Biden objection (at 4:45):

https://youtu.be/3V_xv9cGFRo

Big tech has done a tremendous amount to sensor these videos so they weren't all that easy to find, especially the Biden comment, but I remember him saying them live. I figured you might not accept a source like Rumble or anything perceived as being on the right, so it took while to find them on YouTube.

As far as context goes, I suppose it's easy to hedge your bets by saying you would take it if it was fully vetted, but it's completely nullified if you make it into a political weapon.

Anonymous said...

Some very real scientists and doctors are concerned that the COVID-19 “vaccines” are not really as “safe and effective” as the mindless propaganda makes them out to be

Yes, some are concerned. Some other very real scientists and doctors are concerned that space aliens from the Pleiades are kidnapping humans and cows to perform disgusting experimental surgeries and mind control programs. Why aren't you equally concerned about heeding THOSE scientists' warnings?

Any thoughtful person should concede that politicians love to use any crisis to enrich themselves with greater power and wealth. But that doesn't mean that the crisis itself isn't real.

As for those who start screaming "Mark of the Beast" let's not forget that the Rubella vaccine, which the vast majority of ACOG members have taken without objection, is very similar to the Johnson & Johnson COVID vaccine in its derivation from cells derived from an aborted fetus. If you or your children have accepted the "MMR" vaccine as a prerequisite for attending school, you have ALREADY taken the "Mark of the Beast" yet you were somehow OK with it until someone got you excited about COVID vaccines.

Zippo said...

Bitchute is the Internet equivalent of a dumpster.

Hmm, I think Bob Thiel was considering (or is actually using) Bitchute as an alternative site for his videos that YouTube won't accept.

Anonymous said...

If you read your Bible and research your Bible, you will find the Mark of the Beast is Sunday worship over Sabbath worship. Therefore, when COG people start screaming this is the MoTB and this is the MoTB, I realize that they know nothing and are as bad as conspiracy theorists.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 8:39

I don't know if you are the same Anonymous who made this statement: "Kamala Harris and Joe Biden are both on video saying they wouldn’t take and wouldn’t trust the vaccine."

I did look at both the links that you supplied. Harris says she would not take the vaccine based on the endorsement of D. Trump. The endorsement would have to come from medical professionals. Biden is talking about a future vaccine and the lack of credibililty of the Trump administration and how that militated against people wanting to take the vaccine.

Neither of these are an unqualified refusal of the vaccine as Anonymous 3:16 wants readers to believe. Both are about the lack of credibility of the Trump Administration.

******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer

Anonymous said...

What a shame. And a waste. Randy D'Allesandro was a nice guy who put up with more b.s. in his life than he deserved. Or at least that was my impression of him.

Anonymous said...

Nobody really knows what the Mark of the Beast is. All that anyone can do is to speculate unless or until it manifests itself.

Anonymous said...

I would suggest that “Sunday” worship will not be the mark of the beast.

After the Antichrist is assassinated (Rev 13:3) and resurrected (Rev 13:14b), the false prophet will set up a new ‘religion’ to worship him as “god”.

Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The new “god” will not tolerate any competing religious systems so those who adhere to Sunday and Sabbath keeping will suffer great tribulation.

To facilitate this new religion a new calendar maybe introduced similar to the French republican calendar:

“There were to be no more weeks, or Sundays... The Republican Calendar was officially maintained for fourteen years; but it was eventually abandoned after six. The Gregorian Calendar was in wide-spread use again under the consulate, long before it was formally restored on 1 January 1806/11 Nivose XIV. Nothing was better calculated to disrupt the nation’s sense of orientation than the change of calendar” (Norman Davies, Europe: A History, p.698).

Anonymous said...

"Bitchute is the Internet equivalent of a dumpster..."

Bitchute is the home of more than garbage, you will find many videos of:
# Ernest Zundel, Holocaust Denier and Neo-Nazi
# David Duke, KKK

Since when do ANY decent people need to read poison like the above??

Anonymous said...

Covid vaccination isn't the Mark of the Beast. I am vaccinated and do not feel that I have been in any way indoctrinated. It is all a simple matter of Germ Theory that has been understood since Pasteur. Covid vaccination has been politicized, fictionalized and theologized to attempt to keep a autocrat wannabe in power. Unsurprisingly, it may play into apocalyptic Millerite fantasy in the future.

The Tribulation already happened. The mark of the beast was Roman coinage. Not only was the Roman coinage economic but it was religious. It bore the image of the emperor who was thought to be god or a god. To use the coinage meant obeisance to the emperor and empire. The reference to the mark being placed on the hand and forehead is a Dark Side parallel to the Jewish tefillin.

******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer

RSK said...

I think you meant to say "if you read your Armstrong literature".

Anonymous said...

The problem is much deeper, of course, than people who would cite bitchute here on Banned. There are countless people who are clueless as to valid research methodology floating around out there in the alt right, actually patterning their lives after the garbage on that platform. They hang on every word, lauding freedom of speech, not taking into account that freedom of speech also brings a responsibility of vetting and accuracy. They hate to be held accountable through fact checking. Lying by omission or deliberately for the purpose of gaining advantage is still lying. It has become very trendy over the past five years, with some justifying it all based on their need to win the so-called cultural war, or civil cold war initiated back in the '90s by Rush Limbaugh and other right wing talking heads.

If you visit bitchute, better do extensive fact-checking before believing a single word there.

Anonymous said...


CHOOSE wisely.

Someone at 8:34 PM gave the link to an excellent video at BitChute of Dr. Roger Hodkinson from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada talking about the current COVID-19 situation. Then someone at 5:18 AM responded by complaining about holocaust denier videos and other “garbage” and “poison” at BitChute.

Here is the solution. Do not watch the holocaust denier videos or other garbage or poison at BitChute. Instead, watch the Dr. Roger Hodkinson video at BitChute.

This sort of CHOOSING what you watch and what you do not watch also works at YouTube and with television programs, which also contain plenty of garbage and poison to avoid.


Anonymous said...


If too much of the stuff at BitChute is too crazy for you, here are some other Dr. Roger Hodkinson videos at rumble. Hope that helps a little bit.

https://rumble.com/search/video?q=Roger%20Hodkinson

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at 8:38 PM said...“If you read your Bible and research your Bible, you will find the Mark of the Beast is Sunday worship over Sabbath worship. Therefore, when COG people start screaming this is the MoTB and this is the MoTB, I realize that they know nothing and are as bad as conspiracy theorists.”


The sort of VAX PASSPORT technology that is currently being forced on everyone can be adapted to enforce Sunday observance too. Let that sink in.

Questeruk said...

Jesus seemed happy to use this 'Mark of the Beast' (Roman coinage) - he talked about it in Matthew 22, concerning tribute money, and previously He had used it in Matthew 17 to pay tribute money on His behalf.

Anonymous said...

Agree

Anonymous said...

NEO. The tribulation already happened?! Mark of the beast Roman coinage ?!
Oh heck NEO who did you learn this from?

Anonymous said...

My understanding is that the Great Tribulation is yet future; which incidently is the main view held by evangelicals. Mentioning that this is so is not an argument in its support, but the view from the ground.

“The Great Tribulation, Past or Future? Two Evangelicals Debate the Question” - Thomas Ice (futurist) and Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (preterist):

“When speaking about the fulfillment of Bible prophecy ... [the] four possibilities are called preterism, historicism, futurism and idealism”...

“American evangelical interpretation of Bible prophecy is still overwhelming dominated by the futurist approach, usually expressed in some form of dispensationalist. Around the 1970s preterism began its current resurgence” (Thomas Ice, pp.5 & 16).

“Though presently enjoying strong growth, preterism is a decidedly minority viewpoint among evangelicals..” (Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. p.13).

James said...

October 20, 2021 at 8:03 AM
NEO,

You cannot vaccinate against something that exists in the animal kingdom and humans. Example, over half the deer tested have had or have corona. Impossible to control disease this way. By trying to vaccinate against this corona you will see endless variants.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24060567/

Germ theory mantra you keep repeating when corona is a virus, not a germ. You have the wrong argument.

Anonymous said...

It's not the flu, more deadly than the flu.

Anonymous said...

Neo,
They were attacking the vaccine for political reasons. The vaccine was based in science and taking or not taking the vaccine had nothing to do with Trump’s endorsement, it was all political theatre by Harris and Biden to downplay the vaccine during the election cycle (this is obvious). They were simply being politically careful by framing it under “Trump’s endorsement”.

Billy Buford Blue said...

Anonymous October 19, 2021 at 8:38 PM

The mark of the beast isn’t a vaccine, vaccine passport or a day of the week.

Looking at what is written the mark will be some kind of ID everyone will have to accept in their right hand or forehead to engage in commerce (“buy or sell”) that will essentially prove one’s loyalty, allegiance or worship of the State and/or Beast dictator.

Sure it might have a technical aspect to it. Sure it might involve worship on another day other than God’s Sabbath (due to the alliance of the False Prophet with the Beast).
Sure it might have a symbolic aspect to it besides literal as alluded to by “right hand” and “forehead” that implies one’s conscious choice to obey the Beast and thus disobey God.

But, note the mark will be enforced at the same time with 2 other alternatives. So you’ll either have 1) The mark of the beast OR 2) The name of the Beast OR 3) The number of the name of the Beast=666. The Beast in Europe hasn’t arisen yet. So the vaccine, which is injected into an arm not hand or forehead; the vaccine passport, which is a printed out certificate or displayed on a cell; Sunday, which is a day of the week; all aren’t the mark, which won’t be revealed until the Beast is finally on the scene. But, no doubt the dictatorial responses of Western governments to Covid and the introduction of vaccine passports are definitely conditioning people all over the world to accept what is coming i.e. the mark of the Beast.

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