Tuesday, August 6, 2013

Dennis on: "But What If Dave Is Right and Stuff Happens?"

Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorCome on...you've thought it.  "What if Dave IS right and he DOES have an inside track to God?  What then?"   First of all, not to worry, he's not and it won't but that being said, we all remember how the crowds mocked Noah, and for 120 years or so the story goes.  And it worked out just terrible for those folk.  (Don't worry about that story either.  It is a plagiarized version of the Sumerian Tale of Gilgamesh but that's a whole other story).  But we know somewhere, that story is being quoted to make the faithful say, "oh yeah...that's true."

  They   knew not until the flood came

The average Church of God member of any splinter has any number of examples burned into their minds of the bad results that can come from the common man speaking up to illogical power.  The entire Exodus is one big "Moses, no one believes you and we are thirsty" story.  Korah and his kin get a bit fed up with Moses, which in my mind would be natural, but that's not how the story goes.  We all know the last thing Korah heard from Moses was, "Well Korah, with ideal like that one, really big things are OPENING UP for you," and the rest is history, sorta but probably not.  Even Miriam and Aaron had to be taught a few lessons on picking on Moses for leading them all out into the waste howling wilderness without a map.  Did you know it only actually takes 9 days to walk from Egypt to Israel.  Men never read maps.

We all know naughty boys made fun of Elisha as they mocked and scoffed at him, as boys are wont to do, with "Go up, go up bald man," as his mentor Elijah did, in the story, probably not.  Those bad boys got eaten by bears.  Some like to sugar coat the story and say the bears just tore 'em up a bit, but knowing YHVH, I'm going to go with eaten alive.  Never scoff at the Man of God.

I'm sure time would fail us and the Bible could not contain all the mockings and scoffings the prophets endured, which actually they well deserved as many of their own imaginings did not come to pass.  Egypt never was vacated for 40 years and the Nile never really dried up and so on.  In the New Testament, you didn't pick on the Apostles but they were less aggressive towards the brethren.  They just called them names and as Paul said, he wished they'd cut off their binkies if they were going to be circumcised.  Paul  said he  blessed when he got cursed, but then in other places he pronounces curses on his critics so with Paul it depends on the day of the week. Pharisees got rather miffed at Jesus but he did not strike them dead or turn them into lepers as far as I can tell.  The gang of 12 wanted fire brought down on the scoffers, but Jesus calmed them down. Jesus was a gentle guy  and not given to revenge .  He did get a bit miffed at being called a bastard in John 8 however and said their father was Satan, so he was not above payback. 

The Apostle Peter is said, by Luke who was Paul's buddy, to have struck down two church members who didn't pony up with the funds promised from the sale of land.  I can see Dave trying this on some who have done the same with their pledges.  But if you know me at all, I think that was a private joke on Peter and a not so subtle bash that the readers of Acts would get and we don't after all this time.  Basically,  Annanias and Sapphira get struck down for saying they would do one thing, give all, and did another, held back.  This by the "Great Apostle Peter" who said he would do one thing, never leave Jesus and did another, denied him.  LOL   Don't follow Peter would be the message for those with ears to hear.  So we can dismiss this threatening case of take that you reprobate.  

At any rate, I know some of you are wondering what would happen if Dave is right?  What if the Field of Dreams fills up for the opening game at the Feast?  What if Three COG ministers literally die on the same day? Oh my oh my, we won't be able to explain that away.  (I suggest no three COG ministers ride together until September maybe?)  To be honest, I have been taking more care of myself this month than most.  Taking vitamins, walking Chewie my Shih Tzu a bit more and being nice to my friends.  I meditate a bit more and am getting my sleep.  But to be honest, when I feel a twitter or tweek in my chest or I cough, I do wonder if I am on the list.  While longevity is a trait in my family, if something happens to me, I didn't like it.  I'm just saying.  I willingly give up any chance I have for the big three to Dr. Bob Thiel who would probably be tickled to be chosen.  

Scientists identify cholesterol-regulating genes which could be

So, off to work and didn't want to not address this topic that I KNOW lurks beneath the surface of the God Haunted.  

So hear we go....Oh Magic 8 Ball....Is Dave really Joshua the High Priest as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai and will this stuff he reports as being from you not him going to happen this month as he says?

 Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com


Byker Bob said...

I think it was sometime around 2004, I was doing some work for a Mormon elder, repairing some equipment he had for his home-based business, and he finally got around to actually giving a Book of Mormon to me. This was one of the nicest guys, family man whose kids all turned out well. I had known him for years at this point. Kids were all either in school or on their missions. Beautiful home, nice wife. And we always had great discussions, because of many common interests.

Anyway, the way you get "called" to be a Mormon is that some concerned individual gives you a Book of Mormon, you read it, and somehow, if you are being called, you feel a warming sensation in your chest. I remember driving home that afternoon, stopping at a service station to fill up, and just shaking my head to myself, and thinking, "Man, I can see how people who grew up in one cult could so easily fall for another one." (Fact is, I had lost several good friends that way.) But then suddenly, I remembered the intrusiveness and the control, and that stopped that line of thinking dead in its tracks. I decided right then and there not to even open the door to the ol' Mormon warming of the chest thingamabob.

So, what if Dave Pack turns out to be correct? I've seen and heard enough in my lifetime to realize that that is impossible. You don't even get a spiritual experience in an ACOG to begin with. It's all will power applied to legalism, and following orders rather than freedom in Christ and learning to perceive for yourself the gentle promptings of the Holy Spirit. They still teach and do what an ancient Israelite living under Moses, David, or what the heck, Zerrubbabel, was supposed to do. They substitute this stringent government from the top down for what the Holy Spirit prompts in a Christian's life, as if Jesus had never lived, died, been resurrected, or sent the Ruach to us as our Helper.

Dave Pack can't be right. He is simply a button-pushing spiritual bully. To put it crassly, a loving God would not choose a total asshole to lead His church, because whomever God does choose reflects directly on God Himself. Your general opinion of a God-picked leader is going to be your opinion of God Himself, and vice versa. We did have a very limited number of exemplary loving ministers back in the days before I left in 1975. Unfortunately that old addage, "Nice guys finish last" ended up kicking in, and taking them out. Wayne Cole, David Antion, Al Portune. All suddenly gone. As I was making my grand exit, I realized that the very fact that such individuals got outlasted by the predatory types was one more proof that WCG had very little if anything to do with God. By extension, a restoration of a bogus church is just as bogus as the original. Mud pies would be of greater spiritual value!


Head Usher said...

"Come on...you've thought it. "What if Dave IS right and he DOES have an inside track to God?"

To be honest, I've never thought this. Dave is so obviously full of shit, it's impossible for Dave to be receiving his trashy tabloid prophecies from any deity.

However, what I have thought is, what if something, anything, any little bit of random noise in the news cycle, just by chance coincidence should occur around August 30 that Dave could conceivably latch onto and use to justify his absurd ramblings? Any pixel of background noise that Dave can isolate and begin crowing about, you know he will. For at least a week before and after August 30, we need everything to be as quiet, normal, and uneventful as possible. If even so much as a prospective member catches cold in Antarctica, Dave will bill this as a case of a "future leader" that God was proactively "warning."

You know why Dave won't name the three? Because that way, any health problem that might crop up anywhere in anyone, in any of the COGs around that time could be latched onto. "Oh yeah," Dave will say, "that definitely counts toward fulfillment."

But Dave? Have an inside track to God? Don't make me laugh. "God?" LOL. The probability of Dave having an inside track to "God" is 0% x 0%.

DennisCDiehl said...

I left out 2 Peter 3:3,

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?"

Obviously many early Christians had grown very weary of all the pronouncements of the Apostles, ministry and probably their zealous friends about "soon" and "time is short."

To the ministry, Apostles and zealots it SOUNDED like scoffing, but in hindsight, it was simply correct. Nothing happened, showed up or changed for the better.

Ministry always accuses those who don't believe or at least have come to see the futility and emotional drain of prediction addiction of scoffing...never of making observations. And of course all these folk have been dead for 2000 years. They attribute the motive to lusting for other things besides church and the words of the guru. It's like saying scieintist need to prove evolution is true BECAUSE they want to sin and do what they want. Stupid.

We who question, scoffers to Dave Pack, simply have the history of misusing scripture behind us and thousands of examples of mostly men over history who just knew they were special and the times they lived in were the last ones. It's no way to live.

I still can't believe Dave is being this reckless. It is just not in his nature to take this kind of Weinland approach to "prophecy." As I said, either he has something up his sleave and will show his hand accordingly, or there is a real and genuine mental deterioration or desperation in all this.

You can only send it in once. You can only give it all once. You can only pull so many big triggers and that being past now, perhaps all the eggs in one basket is all that is left. I just findt hard to believe until I see it play out.

Anonymous said...

Dennis says and asks,
"Come on...you've thought it. What if Dave IS right and he DOES have an inside track to God?"

Actually, I didn't thunk any such thing.

BUT... I know that the cult hooks can grip deep and tightly, and for those in the first stages of extracting themselves from armstrongism, the "What if HWA was right?" thingie in one's head can be persistent.

It takes love and time, but a person CAN get over cult indoctrination, whether they are independent and all about HWA, or with the UCG, COGaWA, RCG, PCG, LCG, etc.

Anonymous said...

"You don't even get a spiritual experience in an ACOG to begin with. It's all will power applied to legalism, and following orders rather than freedom in Christ and learning to perceive for yourself the gentle promptings of the Holy Spirit."

the above statement simply confirms my belief that the regulars here are among those who tried to be a part of something using their own will.....they were never called, so there was no way it would work.

that is why there is such bitterness toward the Church...they feel used and abused and feel a need to "hit back", which is the real reason this blog exists.

I'm hopeful that most, like the Apostle Paul, will do a 180 once the scales are removed....

Anonymous said...

oh and by the way, I think DCP falls into that same catagory....I can see no indication at all of conversion on his part.

DennisCDiehl said...

Yes, the thought of "what if he is right" is persistant and ever present until it isn't.

I recall as a student sitting and listening to HWA claim that instead of 1972 being nothing, it was now obvious that it now meant a "Greeaaaaaaaaaaat Door" would be opened to the church....Readers Digest.

Even at 21 years old , HWA provoked my ever present , "hmmmm...really? And you know this? " lol

Anonymous said...

No, no, he is wrong! He is a total hoax, but yes even the devil can make things happen, only we are not to go after this type of man who contradicts the word (do not be deceived). A man used by God above is humble, fears Him, does not boast, does not wish harm on others, loves his neighbor (especially the brethren), does not criticize others, etc.

I won't be surprised if he accomplishes his plan of bringing others to him. God is testing who really listens to Him, instead of men. Many out there are spreading a false gospel for many years, with jets in their back yard, etc. Nothing new, people are dumb sheep and send money in knowing they are living it up.

Gen 6:9 Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

Num 12:3 (Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth. Hbr 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

I do not know much of the other splinters, but I have listened to UCG sermons and compared them to Pack's and I do not see why he is picking on them (they both have the famous HA entertainment)and calling their gospel perverted when it is Pack that is perverting the good news. This is evil!

Anonymous said...

I visited a Mormon church one Sunday when I was stationed at Ft. Lewis. I noticed that ALL the men were wearing black trousers and white shirts. I can't imagine that each man woke up and asked himself, "What should I decide to wear today?" and they all chose the same uniform. Of course, if I asked the leader, "Do you require the men to dress this way?" He would say something like, "No, they are free to choose, but we want to honor God and not draw attention to ourselves in church." No direct order came down nor is there a spoken dress code, but the subtle pressure must be there. I also noticed that the sermon was very much works orientated and I felt the same heaviness that I felt I the WCG and at AC in the early 70's.

Anonymous said...

It doesn't take much for a brainwashed armstrongist person to conclude that critics of his ever-crumbling kingdom have a "root of bitterness" of Biblical proportion.
Truth is, some people just call crap "crap" when they see it.

Joe Moeller said...

If Pack is right about the Three COG leaders dying in one day by FIRE, I am immediately contacting LAW ENFORCEMENT.

The only way such a thing could happen is if Pack , or more likely , Pack Associates, do the evil deed deliberately and with forethought and malice.

From God himself and alone??... Not a chance!!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Douglas Becker said...

The picture of David Pack in this posting: "I caught a fish THIS big, but he got away".

To which I say, "How do you know the imaginary fish was male?"

Head Usher said...

But, yeah, for someone in Dave's group who is trying to get out, or for someone who used to be in Dave's group, this post would be a VERY applicable. Even long after you realized you made a mistake in coming, it can be hard to shake the idea--especially when there's a bunch of indoctrinated people in your life still--that leaving wouldn't be an even bigger mistake. I've still got COG people hoping that someday I'll come back, even though it's never gonna happen.

Painful Truth said...

Dave is full of shit as a xmas turkey. That is what I thought.

Corky said...

Well, Dave is not right and "stuff" is not going to happen. Jesus said the Jews wouldn't even believe if someone rose from the dead (wink, wink - because that was written some 50-100 years or so after it supposedly happened). However, I think he was wrong, I think they would have believed...people are like that, they tend to believe it if they see it.

Someone told me that I wouldn't believe it if I saw Jesus return from the sky and lit on the ground over in Israel --- and, they're right! More than likely, I would think it was either a hoax or we had been invaded by aliens from planet Kolob or something.

For one thing, even if "every eye" in Israel and surrounding countries saw this event, the chances are that I would be fast asleep in my own bed here in Arkansas in the USA and miss the whole thing....You know, along with hundreds of millions of other people on this side of the world. And, if you think I would take Fox News or CNN's word for it, you've got another think coming...

Now, when I see people coming up out of their graves at the local cemetery...well, that'd be scary...but I'm a fan of "The Walking Dead" TV series and I know how to handle that situation...

Byker Bob said...

One of the electronics buffs at Ambassador College had a 4 watt "radio station" that some of us got to play with for some very brief periods of time, purposely brief soas not to attract "Uncle Charlie's" attention ( the FCC).

My sophomore year, some of the kids in one of the dorms on Olcott Place did a kind of a WCG version of Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds". They did about a three minute script including poignant details from the HWA bogus prophecy schtick, putting on their best Ambasador Club broadcasting voices, making it sound like a network newscast. It caused a small amount of controversy, as some students who were not in on the joke accidentally tuned into all or part of it, and one later stated that he actually thought It was time to flee when they came to the part about Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

We all got a good laugh over it, and to my knowledge nobody important heard it, so no disciplinary actions resulted.


Byker Bob said...

I remember the flap over Readers Digest, Dennis! What was so hilarious about HWA's enthusiasm about such a great door being opened is that the pervasive hippie youth culture and the so-called "now scene" of the entertainment industry had rendered Readers Digest all but irrelevant.

People on the street were discussing MASH ( the movie), the Dick Cavett Show, the humor in National Lampoon, Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, Viet Nam, Watergate and impeaching Nixon, different kinds of drugs, and the activities of the Hells Angels, Black Panthers or Caesar Chavez. I don't think anyone even picked up Readers Digest while waiting at the barber shops, not that barber shops themselves were all that popular at that time!

Readers Digest was a poor substitute for the Germans (1972), and Jesus (1975)! Do any of the herbolators still advertise in it?


DennisCDiehl said...

Corky, if we saw any Jesus return today our first question would have to be is it a hologram and who is behind it?

BB, you had more fun at AC than I did. I was in a seriously correct theological seminary and you were at the Shrine Circus. lol

But I went into the ministry and behold....the shrine circus. :)

Byker Bob said...

Dennis, it's too bad you arrived a year late! I would have had you ditching Bible Class to ride dirt bikes in the Arroyo, working out in the weight room, drinking Colt 45, and all sorts of fun things!


Anonymous said...


But What If Dave Is Right and Stuff Happens?


Not a problem. David Pack writes at the start of these announcements of his that, "It is not my task to convince you the prophecy is true. God will do that!"

In all sincerity, and with respect, let God go ahead and convince us if what DCP says is true.


To carelessly believe such extraordinary claims and hand over any money in advance of any proof would be the sort of reckless gambling that invariably leads to serious losses.

God must be behind this for it to truly work out well for everyone. If it is just DCP frightening people and getting a bandwagon effect going, the end result will still be bad for everyone.


It is interesting that when some people get over 50 years old they stop looking at the plain meaning of scripture and start to get into a Kabbalah style search for hidden, coded, secret messages in the Bible that they then say is the unmistakably clear meaning of the verses.

Anonymous said...

"Nice guys finish last". That is because they make sure their woman finishes first!

Believing Dave's false prophesies on the off chance that he might be right, is like never going to sleep on the off chance that Freddy Kruegger might be real.

Nemesis of Pack

Anonymous said...

It would be nice if what he is wishing on others happened to him, meaning the three being his own and that his wife would leave him on that prophesied date of his. Only way people will open their eyes. I hope and pray this man does not stay in his post much longer, destroying families and giving the false hope of safety.

He has an article "A city set on a hill" boasting of the explosion. Anyone believing God is in this, should look at others like Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, etc., making millions upon millions and living like kings. He has a long way to go to catch up, but God is not in any of these men. I have yet to see one assembly not agree to the "not for profit" schemes of the world. We are to pay Caesar what is Caesar's.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Well, they have no light, nor do they have good works.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Byker Bob said...