In Rod Meredith's May June "Tomorrow's World" he has an article up Are You Willing to Change? He makes the bold claim that his messages are literally reaching millions of people.
With each passing month, thousands upon thousands more are encountering this message for the very first time. They are reading the strong, plain-spoken Bible articles appearing in the Tomorrow’s World magazine, and have studied our booklets and articles, showing the truth about the existence of their divine heavenly Father— the Creator—who gives them every breath they draw.Meredith's big disappointment is that these millions have not joined up with him. They ignore him. He just doesn't get it. How can they not see the glorious unified true servants of God at work in the world today?
They have seen the utter ludicrousness of the evolutionary fantasy and other false teachings.
They listen, they read and they talk. Perhaps they talk to family members, or friends, or people at the office. Perhaps they talk to people at church, or at school.
Already, these millions listen, and they read, and they talk.
Yes, they listen, and they read, and they talk—but what will they do?
He writes:
What is it going to take for you to know, personally, that true servants of almighty God are speaking to you over the Tomorrow’s World telecast?
How can it be that Living Church of God is the most powerful work on the earth today, and so many are not heeding its call?What is it going to take for you to heed and act on the knowledge you are receiving through the Tomorrow’s World telecast, magazine and Web site?
35 comments:
Rod has a vivid imagination. Just because materials are made available, it doesn't necessarily mean that thousands of people are listening to them, or reading them. If thousands were listening or reading, it does not mean that they are the same thousands (regulars) each time. It also does not indicate that the hypothetical regulars even necessarily find the message credible. In fact, quite the opposite. Usually, people don't react to a message because they simply don't find it credible. Perhaps, Rod should work on that.
So far as realizing that the message bringers are the true servants of God? Ha ha ha ha ha, snort, giggle, pewk, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Kind of sounds like Bob Thiel's constant lament. You'd almost think this stuff all comes from the same source. Oh, wait a minute, it does!
BB
"In Rod Meredith's May June "Tomorrow's World" he has an article up Are You Willing to Change?"
Rod Meredith isn't willing to change or become a better person in any way. He lives his life in abject denial of just what a rotten sob he really is. If people who hear his message set a better example than he does, it probably has nothing to do with the fact they heard his message.
"They are reading the strong, plain-spoken Bible articles appearing in the Tomorrow’s World magazine, and have studied our booklets and articles, showing the truth about the existence of their divine heavenly Father— the Creator—who gives them every breath they draw. They have seen the utter ludicrousness of the evolutionary fantasy and other false teachings."
The bible is full of s#*t, so "bible articles" are too. The "truth" about the existence of Yahweh can't be shown one way or another, not even by the most famous of bible scholars like Alvin Plantinga, so two-bit cult leaders certainly aren't going to do it in their penny dreadful pulp. Which is why he has to mention that he's still trying to demonstrate even the mere existence of his gawd.
Meanwhile, evolution grows more an more secure with each passing year. It wouldn't take much to falsify it, but until he can, he has no business calling it a "false teaching," especially since he can't show his own teachings are anything more than fantasy!
What strikes me is that he is divorcing the constant ministerial abuse in the church, from the work. Has it occurred to him that they might be related? Why should God bless such a work. He wants Gods blessings on his own selfish, exploitative terms. I experienced this with many church members. They throw you some crumbs, and in return, expect all the benefits of friendship, whilst also robbing you blind.
Rod, from what I have been reading, you have not changed in over 70 years. You're god is hwa, you preached hwa in all your speaches. You treat members and ministers like scum.
Just like in old ww, firing, marking, and suspending people on hearsay.
It is also written let the TARES grow with the wheat, but at harvest time they will be burned. That could be just why God is not cleaning up now.
You elders in lcg, better reflect on it.
Rod and David Pack should have been politicians for they lie just as much. What they don't understand is that people just don't care. The world is falling apart and yes, people are afraid, but they are looking (if they are looking at all), for hard answers that can be proven/seen up front.
The fact that people are not rushing over and handing you their money, is yet another proof that your dreams do not match reality. These whores are being driven insane by their quest for money. They say one thing but do not believe it themselves. They know, or should know, that Yahweh does the calling. If He does not call, they - the people you seek, are not going to come.
Thousand do receive his magazine every month. What makes Rod think they are reading it? Thousands get free magazines from all over in order to cut their heating costs during winter. You can create logs or pellets out of them.
Thanks Rod, Gerald, and a special thanks to United!
I think that I agree in a sense with "TRADING GUY".
A true measurement of how effective your work is ,could be measured by how many people are actually willing to BUY your magazine or materials. Simply throwing them out there for free to just about anyone does not measure how valuable the product really is.
Creating a dependent "in house membership" plantation, whose financial contributors are harangued, threatened and spiritually blackmailed to support the "give away" outreach, is not evidence of fruit production either. It is coerced behavior too. IF there were true spiritual and temporal benefit, then offering would be voluntary, and freely given as well.
There is no true economy, nor market feedback mechanisms within the outreaches, or the ministry of the COGs. For this reason they fail to innovate, fail to be market relevant, fail to creatively destroy and reinvent themselves, and become inefficient "central planning" economies that always end up with bloated bureaucracy, ineffective outreach, "shortages" and collapse.
What about Pack and RCG? I thought that they were doing the biggest "work"! Which one is it, RCG or LCG?
Maybe RCG will do the biggest work once all the other splinter leaders are dead. Then all will come to him and do the greatest work ever. Oh wait, that was supposed to happen three years ago!
The problem is that he sets a terrible example and it's gotten so that he's having a terrible time hiding his bad example, what with his antisocial behavior and all.
The idiot Rod Meredith asked, "What is it going to take for you to know, personally, that true servants of almighty God are speaking to you over the Tomorrow’s World telecast?"
MY COMMENT - In all honesty, it would take wiping away 50 years of my memory of what was said, printed, broadcast and done within Living Church of God's parent organization Radio/Worldwide Church of God. It would also take erasing my Sabbath Services memory and notes of a sermon given by the idiot Meredith in 1969 at the local Washington, D.C. WCG in which he stated in the context of The Great Tribulation and Christ's Return (and I quote) - "We have 3 to 5 years left".
If time has proven the idiot Meredith wrong in 1969, why should he be believed in 2016?
Richard
We get lots of things through the mail that immediately goes in the trash. I made the mistake years ago to ask for Imprimus. Once I found out what an insufferable piece of trash it was, it got discarded immediately and still does. I haven't bothered to try to unsubscribe. Allen C. Dexter
The idiot Rod Meredith wrote, "What is it going to take for you to heed and act on the knowledge you are receiving through the Tomorrow’s World telecast, magazine and Web site? "
MY COMMENT - It would take a simple internet search to find the name "Terry Ratzmann" for me to NOT heed and NOT act on the knowledge I am receiving as attending LCG church services on Sabbath could get you killed - and not by Islamic terrorists, or even martyred for "thy name sake" as was once preach by parent church Worldwide Church of God, but by one of "the brethren".
Funny, or not so funny, in 80+ years of Armstrongism and remembering listening to sermons on Martyrdom, I have yet to hear of ANYONE ACTUALLY MARTYRED for their religious belief and "For Thy Name Sake" in "God's True Church" The Radio/Worldwide Church of God. Yet, I read about what Armstrongites consider "nominal fake Christmas/Sunday keeping Christians" being beheaded by ISIS.
Richard
Some of the contributions that LCG people make here are thought provoking. Qualifying for the Kingdom. Sealed firstfruits. First resurrection to positions of leadership. But, then, the question comes up that how is accomplishment of these possible, considering the quality of the training, which is the horrible examples provided by the leaders and ministry? Occasionally, the idea of transformation, which makes a heck of a lot of sense, is raised. There is, after all, much internal stuff that we as humans cannot get rid of. There are also heights which we cannot reach.
Throughout my lifetime, I've encountered a handful of remarkably advanced individuals, who seem to have the total package. Some would refer to these folks as being "old souls", people who would seem to have required multiple lifetimes to operate at their particular level. They have intellect, natural leadership ability, spirituality, humanity, morals and ethics. They are from a variety of backgrounds and beliefs or non-beliefs. Seemingly, if provided with a sense of direction, they would be the natural leaders of a new era. They are qualified as leaders, their personality and character is basically sealed, and once convinced of God's plan, they would be totally capable of running with it. Others are naturally drawn to them. The basic problem is that none of these people that I've met have been from the Armstrong movement. Which begs the question, how much qualifying or transformation can occur by following the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, or of the teachings of any other group that pretends to be God's one and only true church? Simplistic thinking, right? I mean, where does any sort of real experience come in? There has got to be more to the picture than that. We all require transformation. To be tomorrow's leaders, the exemplary people I've mentioned would only require the transformation resulting from knowing God's plan. This is something that one cannot know from the teachings of Herbert Armstrong, or his successors. We can know this beyond the shadow of doubt based on the lives the Armstongite leaders lead, the way they handle people, and the continued failure of their prophecies. Bottom line is that they are actually suppressing the accumulation of experience, and the leadership abilities of the members. Members need to dig deeper, to go beyond what is taught. Just don't tell anyone if you want to remain a member in good standing!
BB
What's it going to take for Rod to finally wake up?
How pathetic to be 86 years old and have spent the better part of your life with your head in the Bible and he STILL doesn't get it.
Rod is about obedience to him, loyalty to him, ego, power, control, manipulation and fear. He is corrupt and a renowned liar. He bullies and abuses members and ministers alike.
Everything Rod Meredith represents is the exact OPPOSITE of what our Savior represents. Quite literally.
I wish I had never heard his name and never been in his church. I was better off.
I don't know what version of Christ he knows, but it's not the one represented in the pages of the Bible.
"What is it going to take for you to heed and act on the knowledge you are receiving..."
I have the same question for the LCG members who read this blog. Many of you have 1st hand knowledge or experience with how men like Rod Meredith, Rod and Jonathan McNair, Wyatt Ceisielka, Gerald Weston, etc treat members, lie about members to serve their own agendas, over-reach into members lives, bully and abuse... but yet you stay in Living?
Is it because you think it will get better under Weston?
Do you think that eventually "God will take care of it"?
Do you use the "few bad apples" rationale?
Or maybe, the "God is testing my obedience to His government" reasoning?
I know because I was once like you. But guess what? It's not going to get better. LCG is rotten to the core. The longer you stay, the more dismayed and disillusioned you will become. LCG steals your soul a little more each year.
Leaving was hard but oh so rewarding. There are other options and they are far less toxic.
Step out in faith. You won't regret it.
James has posted another in his series of "blast from the past" articles over at the Painful Truth blog. The article addresses pastoral abuse and suicide in the Armstrong churches, in the aftermath of the death by suicide of a beloved college professor whose "spiritual guides" had turned out to be anything but. It is saddening and maddening that nobody within Armstrongism learned anything from this, nor did they gain any insights. Seems the same rotten management style is being used yet today in the splinters.
BB
BB the problem of your natural leaders is their inability to relate to ordinary or morally challenged people. Someone once pointed out that the best maths teacher that they ever had, was a person who struggled with this topic as a student. So he acquired the knowledge of how to break down difficult mathematical problems for his students. Which is why Gods calla the weak of the world. Contrary to the wishes of the ministry, God gives members challenging work jobs, and job assignments, so the opportunity for growth is there.
The holy spirit told me that the ministers are trying to get the best positions in the kingdom "by crippling the minds of members". Like Satan, they have reverted to murder to 'succeed.'
The original post began with saying: "In Rod Meredith's May June "Tomorrow's World" he has an article up Are You Willing to Change?"
Good question! No, excellent question! What is change? It is just another word for repent, and since Rod Meredith is not the servant, little helper, hireling elder he claims to be since he left his credentials behind in Pasadena when he fled from the Worldwide Church of God physically headed up by Herbert W. Armstrong...and abandoned the sheep associated with HWA, we could rephrase Rod Meredith's question and apply it to him by asking: "Are you willing to REPENT?"
If there is such a thing as God's servant on earth today, and Rod is not "the man," then when will Rod be willing to repent, change, and yield to that servant should he know who that servant is. Well, right now, Rod yields to SELF, himself.
And, of course, Rod is NOT willing to change, repent, and yield to anybody else but himSELF.
Besides, if Rod, and Doug, and the living leaders (other xcogs) would believe their Bibles they would know that one does not simply change, repent, unless and until God grants one repentance, change...PERIOD! These leaders continue to show their blindness, their lukewarm-ness to the Word of God, b/c they just “love” being away from HWA so they can continue to "do their own thing" and do it “better” than HWA did, but for some 30 years now they have all failed at being so successful. No wonder nobody is doing anything with what Rod says!!!!!!!
Rod wrote: "...What is it going to take for you to know, personally, that true servants of almighty God are speaking to you over the Tomorrow’s World telecast? What is it going to take for you to heed and act on the knowledge you are receiving through the Tomorrow’s World telecast, magazine and Web site?..."
It takes some God to grant repentance/change! Why should people listen to Rod, when Rod can't even take his own advice. What does he think he is doing...going off from some pasture to do your own thing??? Where is GLOBAL? Dead in the water. Guess what is coming for Living? Same thing, "death," b/c God never planted the man-made group. Here’s some of Jesus Christ’s words of advice for Rod and his Rod-men:
"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Matthew 15:13
Yet, scripture (Romans 12:3, 6) said God will, before all is said and done, give faith to EVERY MAN by measure/proportion, even though time has not told us that yet.
God will eventually grant repentance/change Rod speaks about or the following will never be a reality:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them..." 2 Corinthians 5:19
We are not looking forward to Rod's men ruling over us in his Mickey Mouse Millennium...that utterly fails at the end of 1,000 years and Satan exits from his pit-stop and again messes up the four corners of the earth AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN! How good is that "change" that went on during that 1,000 years with the Rod-men RULING OVER humanity?
To be con't...
John
Continuing...
Rod asks: "What is it going to take for..." for change to occur? We need nothing from the Living group and the xcogs, but it will take something. For example, there is this:
"Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." Deut 29:4
And wouldn't it be nice to have a heart that lasts forever, as in:
Psalm 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your HEART SHALL LIVE FOR EVER.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember AND TURN unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations SHALL worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth SHALL eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust SHALL bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Rod, people can't just change on their own. You have done no such thing. Think about it, Rod...Doug! Just how good is your change? Your repentance? Show us the fruit that you have done what you have asked us to do...and we already know: you CAN'T DO IT. Did you forget Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 7:17, 20-21, Galatians 5:17, I John 3:8, etc. ? Or, did you think that verses like those only applied to others...and not you and the rest of the Rod men?
Stop taking so much glory to yourSELF..............and begin, start, to see what CHANGES God WILL DO!
Jeremiah 32:37 Behold, I WILL gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I WILL bring them again unto this place, and I WILL cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I WILL GIVE them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I WILL MAKE an everlasting covenant with them, that I will NOT turn away from them, to do them good; but I WILL put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I WILL rejoice over them to do them good, and I WILL plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so WILL I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
But, don’t expect that to happen during your Mickey Mouse Millennium, in your fantasy kingdom of SELF. It is for God’s Kingdom beyond that MMM...AFTER Satan is loosed from the pit. When will you change? You need to change, change your theories, your junk food false theories to what God actually says. Here’s another hint of when it will happen:
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Notice it says “men,” and that is flesh, blood and bone men. Everyone isn’t a spirit being when God’s Kingdom is established on earth. Have you ever asked: “Why would spirit beings have to eat leaves from some tree(s) of life?” Now, human beings doing such a thing? Well, that is another story. Again, it is you who needs to change first....and change before you ask us to change, and do something you have not yourself done....your MMM is a set-up to serve only yourSELVES...and not us...and time will tell....
John
Oh, boy, I need to repent...change right now!
So, continuing again...
Eating leaves? Where did that come from? I should have mentioned the fruit that is to be eaten. Leaves are to be for "healing."
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse:
If I would change, repent, and just have quoted the verses I, too, would have been better off. And Rod, Doug, do you guys "get the point?" Shame on you taking in so much money for SELF within a man-made organization that is supposed to be non-profit. We know that it is non-prophet every time you bring up anything relative to a Mickey Mouse Millennium...........
Make it a great day!
John
To Anon from July 3rd @ 2:45pm. I totally agree with you. I stepped out in faith to let the LCG clergy know that the were preaching another Jesus, a different spirit and a different gospel (knowing that this could get me thrown out) and as a result they excommunicated me. There was a time there that I thought I want to stay or go back, but after some time went by, I realized that calling them on their false teachings and no longer being a part of LCG and Armstrongism was truly a blessing from God and I don't regret what I did and what has happened as a result. I too encourage anyone else in LCG or any other Armstrong adhering group to step out in faith, God will help you.
John, God can forgive/grant repentance, but we are the ones who choose to change. The two are very different. If you read the bible cover to cover, God never makes decisions for people. Hence change is a personal choice.
9:45, there is transformation, and the restitution of all things, meaning restoration of man's fallen condition. There are certain things that we can't change, like a lifetime of filthy swear words permanently lodged in the mind, or in some cases, the homosexuality that people were born with. People with clinical depression will find that it impedes their relationship even with God, until they are healed or transformed. Different people have different filters, in that they process incoming information differently from others, leading to aberrant behavior. There is much of a critical nature that we simply cannot change in this lifetime.
Most people from the Armstrong movement are speaking of bringing outward behavior into compliance with Armstrongism when they speak of the responsibility behind change. And, of course, switching rituals cannot change the more substantive qualities of an individual's character, or, per Paul, save souls. Belief that it can is the fallacy behind returning to the Old Covenant. Look at how people of this belief system treat their own members. They use the law to abuse fellow human beings, just as the Pharisees did. And it puffs them up until their self-righteousness raises a stench in the nostrils of God.
BB
BB, Christ did say 'repent for the kingdom is at hand.' He did condemn cities ('woe unto you for..even Nineveh repented,') for not repenting. And Christ criticised the Pharisees for not repenting, pointing that even prostitutes were qualifying for the kingdom. So change is possible. Yes, old habits are permanent, but it is possible to build counter habits that are stronger than the old habits, resulting in a change in behaviour. Granted that the degree of change is limited within a lifespan, and weaknesses can never be completely eliminated, but discernible change over decades is still possible. For instance, some of the most kindest people, have a genetic predisposition toward cruelty. Being ashamed of this weakness, they worked long and hard to build kindness. So again, change is possible. God would not punish individuals and nations if this was not the case.
Anon 9:45 AM, you wrote: "...God can forgive/grant repentance, but we are the ones who choose to change. The two are very different. If you read the bible cover to cover, God never makes decisions for people. Hence change is a personal choice."
What's the difference between the two words? How do you choose to change? How does that work for you?
Have you made the personal choice to stop sinning and never to sin again...and with your personal choice find yourself in a "no sin" state today? Are you really that successful?
The Apostle Paul was in the process of murdering Christians, sealed Firstfruits. Saul consented to Stephen's murder and persecuted Christians and wrecked havoc on God's Church and placed many into prison, and yet you believe and say that: "...God never makes decisions for people."
So how did Paul change if God was not involved?
We say of God, They will be done. What means it?
God told Ananias of God’s will and His personal choices for Saul...and the suffering he would endure:
Acts 9:15 "...Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
:16 "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake."
Paul had no choice in any of that. God did have choice, and when God does start/begin to work with a human being it is to be something like as follows and God draws, or drags (John 6:44, 65) that individual:
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Phil 1:6
And if God does not follow through on His decisions to perform/finish something He began/started in an individual, then God is a liar. Where is your choice, your personal choice? Just in the middle between the "begun" and the "perform" portion only?
Jesus Christ told us that of Himself He could do nothing, so how will you do more than Him with your personal choice? Will you do more than Jesus Christ? If you say yes, then how do you do it? How do you make them good personal choices?
How does all of this work? Returning to Paul he said:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
What happened to Paul's personal choice?
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
How did that sin dwelling within affect Paul's personal choices? How come he couldn't get rid of that sin? Are you anything like Paul was?
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
How come Paul can't find how to perform his own personal choices?
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
What's Paul's problem? Just make a "good" personal choice, so you say!??????
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Have you made the personal choice to remove sin from your life? Paul couldn't do it. I can't do it.
So, tell us. How does one just make "good" personal choices and God isn't involved?
John
Continuing...
Paul went on to say:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Isn't that law working in your life too? It does in me.
Paul also said: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17
Don't you have that problem too? Paul has a problem making them "personal choice(s)" that you referred to. So, how do you do it?
BB gave you a pretty good response, but you didn't like it. BB sees some of the difficulty in making personal choices in people's lives.
Following are just 2 verses, out of many, that help us understand why we, of and by ourselves, cannot and will not make the right personal choices...as if we somehow could qualify to be in God's Kingdom:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
That spirit dwells within you, within me...and it was within Paul too.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil..." I John 3:8
Is that vile, evil, thing "in the details?" It was in Paul's life. It was in Judas' life. It is in your life.
Have you ever driven your vehicle down the street and somebody suddenly abruptly cuts you off? If so, then what were your immediate thoughts?
Daily we go through life and encounter situations like Job mentioned:
Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.
What happens to your personal choices when things like that occur? Do you just instantly change and make the right choices?
God must grant repentance, or it isn’t going to happen, but if you're doing it, then explain to us how you successfully accomplish repentance/change...when the apostle Paul and others tell us how difficult daily life is with sin and evil in their lives...
John
2:27, of course some change is possible. There are certain things which we can change, and ought to change. At one point I believed in and frequently practiced retaliation. I spent some time in gentlemen's clubs. And, I was a hellion in traffic. These are areas in which I was able to make some good, positive changes.
However, I get the distinct impression that some people believe that through vigorously practicing Armstrongism, they will develop the skill sets to be rulers and kings. We can see through this fallacy by the behavior of the splinter leaders who are supposed to be the most spiritually advanced, that a whole lot of transformation is still needed. It is easy to attribute their very public behavior to the Pharisee syndrome.
The fact is, self-improvement is great, but it only gets you so far. I don't believe that pure will power does the things that Armstrong members preach that it does. And, yes, I've often noted that even crack whores are learning the lessons of life which lead one to God. Some people learn through excess, and others learn from austerity and deprivation. Learning is best accomplished of one's own volition and not under the duress caused by your HWA minister.
BB
John your Phil 1.6 is constantly misapplied in the church. All this means is that God always does His part in encouraging, strengthen, and giving Christians opportunities in life, such as a challenging job. It does not mean that a daddy does it all for us. Character by definition, is the freely chosen, so it cannot be given by God.
Christs 'I can do nothing..' is in reference to His miracles. People become sportsman, doctors etc. People do a lot with out God.
You misapply Romans 7.19. Yes Paul didn't do things he knew he should, and sinned as well. This is the power of poor habits and human weaknesses. However, what you fail to mention is that these taper away with the passage of time if a person is growing. They will never completely vanish, but will diminish with time as good habits are strengthened and mental strength and convictions are given muscle.
If a person can learn a sport, learn to play a musical instrument, can learn how to dance, people can like wise grow as a Christian. The same mental programming is involved in all these endeavours.
No one said that growth is easy. Which is why God is offering eternal life and glory and even power over the angels in the next life, angels who probably agree with you.
If a person can learn to play a musical instrument, one can grow as a Christian.
It's as simple as that.
I imagine the Churches of God will never give out honest figures as to the number of active members they have. But, I wonder what the turnover rate is? How many members have been in the church for over 5 years? Over 10 years, etc. The brand loyalty for any of these churches is probably quite low, unlike that of Harley Davidson owners. I imagine they have some who are long term members, and some that have been there for a short period of time, but not many in between the two. What do you think? And how might their numbers compare with the Methodist church, or other mainstream church or even the SDA and JW's.
Anon 3:28 AM wrote: "...If a person can learn to play a musical instrument, one can grow as a Christian. It's as simple as that..."
I disagree b/c it isn't "as simple as that." Who wants to be a real Christian? Nobody, and that's why the word "draw" in John 6:44 means "drag." One is literally dragged, or it ain't happening.
If it were really that easy, as easy as you think, then why did Paul tell us the following?
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13
And remember, Paul had a lot of problems and that sin that dwelled within his flesh bugged him until the day he died...and it will you too. God only made one like Jesus Christ, but that had to be or you would die, pay your wages for all of your sins, and remain in the ground forever.
Notice that it isn't your personal choice, your will, but that God has to do some work, which involves providing one with both the "will" and the "to do," if/when it is God's "good pleasure" to do so...again, not your personal choice. If it's not God's "good pleasure, then how will you become a christian? What will you "grow" into?
However God does it, a day is coming when people will admit the following:
"But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8
Have you ever seen clay mold and shape itself into something by its own will? Have you ever seen clay move all by itself? Well, unless an earthquake make it move...
How would you direct your steps? Like Jeremiah did?
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jeremiah 10:23
etc.
If you want to believe in your free choice, your free will, and God were to judge you TODAY by the very criteria, or standard, that you believe all humanity would be judged by, then you would end up in the lake of fire.......along with the rest of us. You cannot choose to make yourself sinless, and make your personal choice to do so, stick in your life and you know it. Do you think that "trying" is enough?
Following demonstrates how much human will, and choice, is involved in those who will eventually become sealed Firstfruit:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, NOT of blood, NOR of the will of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
I'm glad that God just does it........however it happens, because I know I can't do what you think and profess to be just "as simple as that."
John
7.51AM God is basically not calling any more members, so their numbers are static at best. There was a very high turnover rate in the early days, but has dropped off. The high turnover begs the question if the appropriateness of third tithe, since members are putting into a security net that they cannot benefit from. The fact that most members are very old, points to a unique church.
John, your "I'm glad that God just does it..," is not confirmed by experience. When I came into the church, I spent most of my time in prayer and bible study, but most of my weaknesses remained. I had to read up on my problems, and start doing mental exercises (meditate) to wear down my problems. That's the reality. You left out the parable of the talents. Your map of reality doesn't explain why some Christians succeed and others fail, even ending up in the lake of fire.
"Choose life," is an ongoing daily process. Each day you turn your talent into many, or bury it in the ground. It is a very personal choice. God encourages, motivates, inspires, but, but does not choose for us. To make a decision for another person is murder, and God is not above the law.
"The fact that most members are very old, points to a unique church."
And don't forget that relevant factors reveal that it's also a 'F-ing shitty' church, too!
It's funny to read someone using the obtuse "unique church" euphemism instead of the more direct "destructive cult" descriptor.
Anon 11:31 AM,
You wrote: "...Your map of reality doesn't explain why some Christians succeed and others fail, even ending up in the lake of fire..."
That explains your reality as you see it and it is all part of a Fear Religion, whereby your salvation is all dependent upon yourSELF, your works, what you do...your "read up on your problems...you doing exercises," etc. You doing something with some "talent," whatever that is. Have you ever considered that the parables about the pounds and talents are about angels, and not human beings? That's another story.
Christians, those sealed by God's Spirit, will all succeed b/c God does it and not you. If it's all up to you, then all bets are off, because you can't do it. Firstfruits, once sealed, are sealed until the day of redemption.
Again, for example, God is a liar if He does not accomplish the following:
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Phil 1:6
God will finish/perform whatever he begins/starts in an individual, who becomes the workmanship of His hands. You won't finish/perform anything (e.g. your works, your goodness, your righteousness, your anything) to somehow qualify yourSELF for something relative to God and/or His Kingdom. You cannot even make yourSELF accepted in the beloved.
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE us ACCEPTED in the beloved." Eph 1:6
Are you familiar with that poem about "footsteps in the sand?" If what you say is true, there will be 2 sets of footprints in the sand. If God is working out something there will only be one set of footprints in the sand. There is a reason God has to draw, and that word means DRAG (look it up), as the following verse says:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
That applies to the chosen Firstfruits by God's will (John 1:12-13) to be sealed, but "the rest?"
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:32
And eventually there will only be ONE FOLD:
John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
God is working a perfect plan to save all humanity, and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels.
And time will tell...
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