CGI’s Bill Watson: Pastor or Warlock?
The Church of God International has published an astounding sermon by Bill Watson on their website. The message is titled, The Prayer of Imprecation. For those who may be unfamiliar with the term, a prayer of imprecation is an appeal to God to take down somebody or some organization (a part of Bill’s own adequate definition of the term). In other words, it is the equivalent of calling down a curse on someone or something – the opposite of requesting that someone or something be blessed. Hence, the thesis of Bill’s message is that not only is such a prayer appropriate, but he strongly implies that it may be time for Christians to start hurling curses at “wicked” folks.
Pastor Watson looks at the condition of the United States and the rest of the world and says that Christians should be imploring God to “stop the madness.” In the message, he talks about human trafficking and asks if it wouldn’t be appropriate for Christians to begin calling down curses on those who engage in the practice or cover it up. Likewise, he goes on to point out that the legalization of abortion has resulted in the “murder” of millions of babies and asks if we might not be justified in calling down God’s curse on Planned Parenthood. In a similar vein, Watson decries what he sees as the spread of Marxism within the United States; and we are left with the distinct impression that he would like to include the Democratic Party in this mix! Mr. Watson went on to decry the folks who are encroaching on our freedoms and are seeking to advance a globalist agenda. Finally, he concludes his message by offering his listeners several candidates for their consideration (like the United Nations, and the IMF).
Now, while many of us would readily agree with Bill’s consternation at the horrible state of affairs within the United States (and the world at large), I am left to wonder why he didn’t acknowledge the vehicle which Christ gave his followers to address such distress. You remember – the little recitation that most folks refer to as the Lord’s Prayer? Didn’t Christ instruct his followers to pray after this manner: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven!” (Matthew 6:10)
To be fair, the pastor does give a passing reference to one of the numerous scriptures which absolutely forbid Christians from engaging in this kind of witchcraft. More specifically, he tells us that he is aware of what Paul wrote to Roman Christians on the subject. Hence, I think it’s probably appropriate to directly confront that scripture in this review. Paul wrote: “Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.” (Romans 12:14) He went on to say: “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore, if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19-21) Mr. Watson tells us that he is aware of this, but he goes on to suggest that we wouldn’t be taking the action – that we’d be asking God to take action. And, if that reasoning sounds a little dubious to you, it did to me as well!
I was also wondering about a few pertinent remarks by Jesus Christ which did not appear in his message. I’m thinking about passages like this one from the gospel of Matthew: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you…” (Matthew 5:38-44) OR this one from the gospel according to Luke: “But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.” (Luke 6:27-33)
Unfortunately, however, Mr. Watson ignored all of those scriptures and went straight to the book of Psalms to offer numerous instances of imprecatory prayers offered by King David. And, as we know, these prayers were offered to God when David was feeling threatened or persecuted by his enemies – or in some instances, when he was feeling angry or bitter toward them. In other words, none of these prayers are probably appropriate models for Christians to follow!
From there, Mr. Watson highlighted the really tuff statements that Christ made about the religious leaders of his day (the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees) – calling them hypocrites and children of the Devil. Likewise, the pastor pointed out that the Apostle Paul twice stated in his letter to the saints of Galatia that anyone who preached a heretical gospel should be accursed. Unfortunately, Mr. Watson doesn’t appear to see any difference in calling someone out for false preaching and asking God to curse them. Many of us, however, do see a clear distinction between the two practices.
Mr. Watson asks whether his audience might see a need for imprecation. Indeed, he suggests that it may become our duty as Christians to someday offer an imprecatory prayer. He continued: “I’m just saying: Are we bold? Are we brave? Are we courageous? If God’s church doesn’t change, you’re gonna get stepped on.” Really, Mr. Watson? When hasn’t the Church been stepped on? You asked whether or not it might ever be appropriate for God’s people to offer a prayer of imprecation. I’ve got an answer for you: NEVER!
Lonnie Hendrix
58 comments:
Rod Meredith bragged often that he'd prayed to his god to smite and ruin the Global Church of God and its leadership after he fled to start LCG. Watson is late to this party.
The Roman Empire was full of debauchery, evil , and wickedness. Yet nowhere in the New Testament do I see any "prayers of imprecation" towards any of the leaders of the empire.
Rather I see this...
" I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior…” -1 Timothy 2:1-3
Watson is a man right in tune with the intolerant monsters who were released and given sanctuary by Donald Trump. These selfish people seek not to debate and compromise with those of opposing views, but to wish them dead or kill them! And, because we did not let them get away with it, they now say we stole their country, meaning of course, their neo Nazi version of our country.
Something needs to happen to bring us all back together again, and to restore functionality, or we are in very deep trouble. Bill Watson, and people of his mentality are part of the problem! I'd hate to be in his "place of safety". Probably can't wait to reinstitute stoning!
I actually watched this message, (kind of ..... while doing some other stuff as well), and think that the background they have there in Medina is very nice. The point that he emphasized was that WE should not seek revenge or personally attempt to punish the evil people that are doing evil practices. He indeed has a point there, scripturally, but then he indeed pushed and pushed folks to pray to God to punish these evil doers. Most of us think that will happen at some point, also that this evil has always gone on. Not focused on the future when the KOG is ruling and correcting while setting things back in order, but right now! He kept saying "I am just asking the question" .... why would he say that if he knows the answer? It was almost like he was entreating others to go do something that he does not do, hoping for a result that HE likes. Seems to me that Satan offered the opportunity to Christ to set things right at that moment and punish the evil doers, but for some reason Jesus turned him down. I seriously doubt that Bill Watson can coax Jesus into doing something out of HIS timeline no matter how many he hopes to get to petition the Creator to do so.
Human trafficking is actually getting worse. I don't agree with a lot of this sermon but I have no issues with this.
Anon 4:41:00 PS PST
‘These selfish people seek not to debate and compromise with those of opposing views’.
Sounds much like the Biden administration and its big tech supporters who have absolutely no hesitation in censoring
viewpoints that differ from theirs. The examples are legend and a short search online will attest to this frightening phenomena.
Intolerance and bigotry are equally at home on the left.
Indeed the ‘intolerant monsters’ you alluded too sound much like the numerous criminals released under ‘enlightened progressive’ policy that have resulted in huge crime surges throughout the USA.
The societal ills reality seen on national networks are reflected within the authoritarian cogs sadly.
Madness afflicts all sides of the political and religious spectrum.
I agree with Tonto’s words on the above matter.
Pat Robertson prayed for God to kill U.S. Supreme Court justices. So there's a modern precedent.
I can't believe the magazine editor would allow this to be posted. I am a CGI member and I am appalled by this article. The example set for us is to pray for our enemies, not wish them dead. It is sad to watch my own church become more Laodicean than it already was.
This post is garbage. Roman culture was sadistic. There's a YouTube video on this. Christians experienced the equivalent of the Trump Derangement Syndrome. So the Christians at that time had to walk on eggshells and pull their punches. To ignore this context is being deceitful.
The book of Psalms is part of the bible, and on many occasions David pleads with God, asking for vengeance and retribution on his enemies. If you read the accounts, there's always proportionality. David asked that they be treated as they have mistreated others.
It's called justice, which Lonnie Hendrix finds offensive. Note how bullies feel that they have a right to a double standard. They believe others shouldn't mind if they are wronged, but are monstrously vindictive if even slightly wronged. One standard for thee, another for me. God by contrast, does not tolerate a double standard and judges people by their own (often unjust) standards.
Lonnie isn't describing the world as it is, but rather they way he would like it to be. Yes, we all have our fantasies.
CGI has long had difficulty understanding the difference between "watching" and "getting involved" in world affairs. I see no problem in asking God to stop the madness, but we should remember that the madness was prophesied and will continue to get worse until God decides it's time to stop it. Bottom line, we should pray for the conversion of the wicked, those that go against God's instructions.
We cannot know where the equilibrium of justice rests in any given case. We have neither the background nor all the foreground details. But prayer is not like a kind of enchantment which putatively possesses an inherent weaponization. This is not like throwing a self-contained hand grenade at someone based on your personal and maybe dubious viewpoint. Thankfully, prayers go to God and he does the necessary verification and validation at the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient level.
The downside is that this may represent a spirit of faction that has no place in Christianity. This would be a War of Prayer: those praying for and those praying against as a manifestation of simple human bellicosity with both sides pompously believing that they have recruited God to their cause. Blessed are the peacemakers.
Into this arena steps theodicy. How and why does evil operate? Why did Hitler prosper for so many years? He even killed Dietrich Bonhoeffer. There is a simplicity to The Way but also a profundity. This is non-trivial. You have to bring your 'A' game to this one.
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The extremists of both political parties have become the main influences, 7:45, and are tearing this country apart. I've said many times over the past several years that I, as a moderate centrist, have no representation in Washington or in my local state government because my interests are being held hostage to the scorched earth policies as the new civil war continues. For right now, it is a cold war, but I fear that that could change at any time.
It is hardly surprising that Bill Watson, or any ACOG official, would be conservative. However, it is unconscionable that any of these leaders would become caught up in and teach the most extreme positions in which evil or demise is wished upon all who disagree. I blame the late Rush Limbaugh for this. Rush was advocating the end to our great political tradition of compromise back in the '90s, and totally trashing liberals who did not agree with him. It is perfectly normal that there would be an equal and opposite reaction when bombshells from one side begin to be dropped. It all becomes a bloody battle for survival. We've degenerated into a banana republic, and unless we stabilize, we will go the way of all great empires.
Anonymous 7:25
Well said. I think Limbaugh at one time was the head of the Republican Party and the "Pope" of the White evangelical church. Among White evangelicals I believe he was way more popular, way more discussed than Jesus. And he paved the way for the divisions we now see.
And we are well on our way to being another banana republic. First, we will have a little diversion called a civil war along racial lines. It will not be one region against another reigion - like North against South. It will be more like the war in Northern Ireland - long, bloody and insidious with each big city in the USA becoming another Belfast. You go shopping in some big box grocery store and a bomb takes out several hundred people and you die among the cabbages. And I believe the Whites will win but at the cost of the American democratic republic. We will end up with a Francisco Franco style autocracy - an banana republic with a dictator. We will have a state religion and all the little oddities like Armstrongism will be terminated. North America is just another Gentile empire. These empires come and go in history. Usually their going is ugly. China, India and Brazil will be up next. I am not styling myself as a prophet. I hope I am wrong. I am just looking at the present foreshadows and making an extrapolation.
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As a Christian, our primary and un-divided allegiance is to God and his Kingdom. It is not our job to preserve the United States, capitalism or the American way. As Christians, we should have ZERO interest in partisanship. ALL human governments and systems are flawed (no exceptions - better than the rest isn't good enough). No human leader should be regarded as being in a position to effect our salvation. As Christians, we have ONE Savior, Jesus Christ! Scripture is CLEAR on this one - God expects us to be strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
7.25 AM
Is God a "compromiser?" Sitting on the fence and taking the "moderate centrist" position is a cowardly response to the presence of evil. Besides which, it only buys 'peace' for a short period of time. The feeding the crocodile thingy.
I remind you that Christ never sinned, and God hates the slightest sin.
God claims that His laws are perfect. If you don't believe that, how can you call yourself a Christian?
Btw, God is going to shake all these compromising fence sitters off the fence with the arrival of the beast power and false prophet.
As NEO suggests, justice is entirely God's prerogative. In this life, we have absolutely ZERO role to play in its administration/implementation/execution.
Anonymous 1/4 @ 10:25,
God is the epitome of moderation and balance. As Christians, we are to pray for God's will to be implemented on this earth - for the return of our Savior and the commencement of his reign. As I said before, it is not our responsibility to make this present evil system work or perpetuate the American way - we have no interest in preserving/perpetuating this evil system. As Christians, we should do all that we can to help those in need and offer solace to those who are suffering - that is our proper role within this world.
God's laws are perfect. Things like Moses' pronouncements on divorce or revenge are NOT perfect and have been superseded by Christ's instructions. I am a Christian because I have accepted Christ's life, work and sacrifice as my salvation from sin and death - AND, in accordance with God's instructions, I have been baptized and received God's Holy Spirit.
Finally, sorry, the "Beast"/"Babylon" is all around us. Moreover, all those who are currently actively participating in glorifying, serving and sustaining it are already wearing its mark on their hands and foreheads!
I know that Watson's message about imprecation is NOT supported by CGI or many of its members. However, as the sermon remains posted on their website, the folks in Tyler must think their blanket disclaimer gets them off the hook:
"Our Statement of Beliefs and Systematic Theology Project represent the beliefs and doctrines of the Church of God International. Additional information and opinions expressed on this website do not necessarily reflect the collective beliefs and doctrines of the Church of God International, its members, ministry, or leadership."
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
It maybe more appropriate to say “the arrival of the beast and false prophet” - the arrival of two future individuals.
Da 2:38b Thou art this head of gold.
"The identification of the head of gold with Nebuchadnezzar is a reference to the empire as personified by its ruler. As Young points out ... the reference is to the king as the symbol of the empire" (John F. Walvoord, Daniel - The Key to Prophetic Revelation, p.65).
Rev 5:6 ... a Lamb ... having seven horns and seven eyes,
Rev 13:1 ... a beast ... having seven heads and ten horns,
Rev 5:6 a Lamb standing, as [hos] having been slain [esphagmenen]
Rev 13:3 one of its heads, as [hos] having been slain [esphagmenen] to death
"In John's description of the beast, there are numerous parallels with Jesus that should alert the reader to the fact that John is seeking to establish...a theological characterization...: Both wielded swords; both had followers on whose foreheads were inscribed their names (13:16-14:1); both had horns (5:6; 13:1); both were slain, the same Greek word being used to describe their deaths (sphagizo, vv.3,8); both had arisen to new life and authority; and both were given (by different authorities) power over every nation, tribe, people, and tongue as well as over kings of the earth (1:5; 7:9; with 13:7; 17:12). The beast described here is the great theological counterpart to all that Christ represents..." (Alan F. Johnson, Revelation, EBC, Vol. 12, p.527).
Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god [’elohim] to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Moses and Aaron provide a positive type/outcome of the relationship between a God and prophet; while the beast and the false prophet provide a negative one.
Perhaps it may be said that God's laws are perfect and practical.
Ne 10:29 ... to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;
God's instructions for divorce, mediated through Moses, was pragmatic for a people without the spirit under the Old Covenant.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mt 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
But with the New Covenant and the spirit is a return to what was intended in the beginning.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb [= Sinai] for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Dt 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
"The law is referred to here [in Malachi] (and this is the very point which has been overlooked), not according to its accidental and temporary form, but according to its essential character, as expressive of the holiness of God, just as in Matt. 5:17... The laws, which were afterwards given in the plains of Moab, are also included in the expression "in Horeb." For they were merely a continuation and further development; the foundation was fully laid at Sinai" (E.W. Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament, Vol.4, pp.190-91).
"Moses has always been considered the first and greatest lawgiver of the Israelites. In his own person he combined the functions of prophet and priest and king; he judged their lawsuits and taught them principles of their religious duty, not only in the details of sacrificial worship but in many aspects of ordinary life as well. Of course his laws were edited and expanded, issued and re-issued down the centuries that followed, for different situations and changing circumstances; but Israel's law would never cease to be known as the law of Moses. Rightly so: for the principles laid down in his time, before the settlement in Canaan, remained the principles of Israel's law for all centuries to come" (F.F. Bruce, Israel and the Nations - The History of Israel from the Exodus to the Fall of the Second Temple, pp.3-4).
Miller says that the wordly war against evil is not Christian business. And Anonymous 10:25 says that if you do not confront evil you are a coward and a fence sitter. And I don't know what the answer is.
The world is way ahead of us. For example, what if you bravely rescue a young woman from being raped and murdered by a thug? That's good. But then she gets married and has several children and one of her children grows up to be a serial killer. Thats bad. If you had let her get killed you would have saved the lives of a bunch of people. But you couldn't know the the future and you did what you had to do at the time but it is in part your fault that a bunch of people are dead through your act of altruism. We live in a world where good and evil are inextricably entwined.
And think about the poor guy who believed the Q-anon drivel and rushed to attack a pizza parlor with his assault rifle to save kids from being trafficked. Thankfully he was stopped. In his act of brave altruism he could have shot up a bunch of innocent families. They would have died with mouths full of pizza. That's real world.
Should Dietrich Bonhoeffer have just let the Hitler problem slide? He acted and was beheaded and it made not a bit of difference in the course of Hitler's insane career.
But Jesus says that we should act in love towards our neighbors. And we should with wisdom. But never get the illusion that what good you do is somehow an act of purity in all of its consequences. This world has everyone by the short hairs. My guess is that one day, in the afterlife, we will find out what all or our "good and brave acts" led to over time and we will be appalled. And blithely condemning the "fence sitters" will seem an assertion of pomposity.
In 1 John 2:15 it says: "Do not love the world or the things in the world. The love of the Father is not in those who love the world." This could have an application to this question.
This is a difficult topic. A real midrash. I don't know if I am right.
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"God is the epitome of moderation and balance."
Except when he is committing genocide because he loses his temper. He's a narcissistic psychopath.
The Polarized Prophet Neo strikes again on Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 10:02:00 AM.
Neo is spewing his weird-as-HWA-ass predictions of doom, gloom, and hopelessness for the US.
Neo's predictions are styled almost exactly like HWA's - click on this link to see how similar their crazy predictions are:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/p/herbert-armstrongs-documented.html
The Polarized Prophet knows and preaches this "inevitability":
"First, we will have a little diversion called a civil war along racial lines. It will not be one region against another reigion - like North against South."
Neo did state that he is not styling himself as a prophet - but that reminds me of an HWA devotee who, when confronted with proof of HWA's false predictions, blurted, "HWA never said he was a prophet, he was an Apostle!"
Neo sees and preaches all that is bad, and overlooks the good in the world, like HWA did.
Neo will have just a few followers on this blog - but, the real harm is that Neo is lending his support to other divisive factions that garner a larger audience to spew their screed of hatred.
Please Polarized Prophet Neo, give peace a chance!
Anonymous 7:42
I gather you do not like my opinion. That's fine. No need to do invidious comparisons between HWA and me. It's just an opinion. HWA was considered an inspired apostle. I am just a guy with an opinion. I told you in my comment how I came up with this opinion and there is no claim of inspiration or prophecy. Do you read only what you want to?
"Please Polarized Prophet Neo, give peace a chance!" My opinion has no effect on whether or not there will be peace. I can't give it a chance or take away its chance.
You really need to think more deeply before you make a response. Didn't we have this conversation before?
And I stand by my opinion. And will be glad to change it if this nation takes a different course. A recent CBS Poll found that 62% of respondents foresee violence at the next presidential election. I would be surprised if it takes that long. We are in the first stages of a civil war now.
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The left stands for finally mainstreaming African Americans, acknowledging the systemic racism which has always been part of our system, and making changes to correct that racism. Other ethnicities, people of other colors, would also benefit from this. People on the right consider it unpatriotic, demeaning to our country to acknowledge its past (and present) racism, and they don't want kids studying or re-examining this in public schools. It's the same old "Love it or Leave it" mentality from the sixties. The problem is that now the groups duking this out are armed to the teeth, and organized into paramilitary groups.
White supremacists, neo-Nazis, and hate groups have always been held in check by the majority of white folk who consider them to be ignorant and dangerous. The militia groups were almost dead towards the end of the '90s. They did not like to be called militias back then, amongst one another, they called themselves "Christian Patriots". They cloaked themselves in their supposed knowledge of the constitution. The language and terminology I heard from people whom I knew in these groups back in the '90s gradually entered into the lexicon of the MAGA crowd, Q-anon conspiratorialists, Stop the Steal activists and has become somewhat mainstream over the past five years. In fact, I recognized it immediately, and knew its source. It does not take a genius to understand why this is a huge problem for democracy as we have known it, and all the safeties and checks and balances upon which we have relied for an orderly and civilized society.
You really don't have to be a prophet to see this unfolding. Know it, hate it, fight it. Before it's too late.
Paul Ray writes:
“Except when he is committing genocide because he loses his temper. He's a narcissistic psychopath.”
Ge 1:26a And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
“How can God allow such things?” we cry, with the built-in accusation that if he were any kind of good and loving God, he would not allow them. Our gut reaction is to accuse God of callousness or carelessness and demand that he do something to stop such things.
“But when I hear people voicing such accusations - especially those who do not believe in God but like to accuse the God they don’t believe in of his failure to do things he ought if he did exist - then I think I hear a voice rom heaven saying:
“Well, excuse me, but if we’re taking here about who allows what, let me point out that thousands of children are dying ... [1 every 5 seconds] ... in your world of preventible diseases that you have the means (but obviously not the will) to stop. How can you allow that?
“There are millions in your world who are slowly dying of starvation [9 million per year] while some of you are killing yourselves with gluttony. How can you allow such suffering to go on?
“You seem comfortable enough knowing that millions of you have less per day to live on than others spend on a cup of coffee, while a few of you have more individual wealth than whole countries. How can you allow such obscene evil and call it can economic system?
“There are more people in slavery now than in the worst days of the pre-abolition slave trade. How can you allow that?
“There are millions upon millions of people living as refuges, on the knife-edge of existence, because of interminable wars that you indulge in out of selfishness, greed, ambition, and lying hypocrisy. And you not only allow this, but collude in it, fuel it, and profit from it (including many of you who claim most loudly that you believe in me).
“Didn’t one of your own singers put it like this, ‘Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself.’”
“So it seems to me that there is no doubt at all, even if one could not put a percentage point on the matter, that the vast bulk of all the suffering and pain in the world is the result, direct, or indirect, of human wickedness...” (Christopher J. H. Wright, The God I don’t understand, pp.31-32).
Civil war has been building for years and it will be between the left and right, leading to the balkanization of the US. Perhaps this is needed so that the Gospel can be preached to the world from a reasonably safe and conducive conservative/religious environment - seeing that the secular state is becomes increasingly hostile to religion.
Neo,
Your comments about the complexity of this issue were very astute. Tolkien once observed "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." As you point out, only Almighty God has omniscience. And, for the record, I believe that Christians should be intimately involved in the war against evil. I just no longer believe that we have any role to play in perpetuating the kingdoms of men or Satan. In other words, the best of the worst is still not good enough. Humans have to learn the lesson that ONLY God's way will always result in positive/good outcomes. We must come to see those human choices/decisions (more often than not) lead to very bad or negative outcomes.
As you know, I have spent a great deal of time and energy thinking about the polarization of America and the events of the last six years. I still believe that a Trump return to power would prove to be the fatal blow for this democratic republic, but I have also finally realized that the people of this nation may venture down that road (or adopt someone else of the same caliber). Moreover, any time and energy which I put into trying to make sure that doesn't happen is time and energy away from God and his kingdom. And, even if my efforts in conjunction with like-minded folks prevented that from happening, what would we have accomplished? The perpetuation of a dysfunctional democratic republic which may indeed be the best this world has to offer, but what have we saved or perpetuated? The United States has dominated and exploited other peoples and nations throughout its history. The U.S. is the world's biggest consumer of resources and is doing more to fowl this planet than any other nation. Again, the best of the worst isn't good enough.
The political, military and economic might of human governments represent the modern manifestation of the Beast/Babylon. Hence, we take on the mark of the Beast when we seek to perpetuate, sustain or serve these human systems. This awareness of mine has developed over many years and is more adequately explained in the four most recent posts on my own blog: "God cannot be contained."
11.51 AM
Miller Jones, while it is true that it's not the role of Christians to make this evil world work, it is our moral responsibility to be passing moral judgement on the evil around us. It is part of our responsibility of "watching." Observing a evil, and not condemning it in our minds results in a mental twisting, a perversion of our sense of normalcy.
The ACOGs are therefore correct in their condemnation in the evil behavior and policies of our politicians.
Christ on several occasions quoted from the old testament, so your claim that Christ's teachings supercedes revenge is not correct. Christ had NO POWER to change the physical or moral laws of the universe. All He could do was teach the practical application of God's law.
Btw, when I mentioned king David's request for revenge to my first abusive minister, he stutteringly replied that we are now the new testament and not old testament. He gave the same answer you did. Since he was anxiety stricken and stuttering, he obviously didn't believe his own words.
Polarized Prophet Neo: your screed is dangerous and hateful - as well as being COG-like speculation.
One of the most evil things your opinion does is promote the sentiment amongst people of all races, that their neighbors hate them.
Living under a false reality that society, or a half the population, or the guy down the road hates you is demoralizing for all - but it will hurt minorities the most.
Yours preaching polarizes people and foments anger, from all sides, toward that "other" group.
You have bonded with the fear and hate mongers - you spread their message of the inevitability of a race war.
This evil message takes root in some minds and the message grows.
You preaching this message brings the evil you are predicting a step closer.
You could give peace a chance by speaking words of peace, encouraging cooperation, and just stifling the urge to promote dangerous, polarizing, evil conspiracy theories.
Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 10:28:00 PM PST
What you are talking about is a completely different subject (a bit of misdirection?). I am talking about God's genocidal acts, mainly murdering almost all of the human race. Psychopath.
Anon 11:13 wrote: Justice which 'Lonnie Hendrix' finds offensive. Note how bullies feel they have a right to a double standard.
Bravo Anon. I'm so glad you've had those comments allowed. How well you know the writer behind the 'Lonnie' ect brand. You'll never know how true those comments are.
The 'Lonnie' types used to put all their injustices all over The Journal in bygone decades, yet when they inherited the crown, they bullied innocents ten times worse than they ever had put up with themselves. They subtly threaten, gossip and assassinate peoples reputations yet have a double standard on this blog.
Hypocrites with no consciousness may God deliver his Christians in these dangerous times.
In my opinion, there is a strong scriptural basis for a prayer that asks God to thwart evil plans or practices. But, once again, this is far removed from calling down a curse on some individual or group.
Paul Ray's statement drives Fundamentalists crazy, but it rings true if one accepts the excuses offered by the folks who practiced misogyny, slavery and genocide. If the God of the Old Testament really was responsible for all of that stuff, one would have to conclude that he was a psychopath! However, if we recognize the fact that folks have always liked to use God to justify their atrocities/bad behavior, then we understand that God is NOT a narcissistic psychopath.
Miller 10:47 wrote, "And, for the record, I believe that Christians should be intimately involved in the war against evil."
Overall, I agree with what you have written. The above statement clarifies your position but the word "intimately" leaves me a little queasy. Evil is a complex matter. The world is marbled with it and trying to remain separate from it is very difficult when you don't always know what it is and how it manifests itself. (One might argue that almost half of the American electorate is comprised of basically good people who have lost their ability to identify evil.) Christian ethicists like to talk about opposing evil but do not seem to engage the practical problem of understanding what is evil and what is not and how one is to tease the good out of the morass of intermingled good and wickedness.
Further, one must be really astute in identifying a strategy to oppose evil. Another issue that seems to be ignored by Christian ethicists. You have to bring your 'A' game. And maybe even that won't work. If I could have advised Dietrich Bonhoeffer I might have tried to persuade the brother not to do what he did - to wait for better conditions. But he might have argued that waiting is not an option - that it translsates into more death. I think maybe they hung him instead of beheading him.
This is a matter of midrash. I believe we should do what we can do based on the parable of the good Samaritan. But this is a really complex problem. Another place for faith in God.
I appreciate your comments.
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Neo,
My use of the word "intimate" was meant to suggest Christians should be familiar with the problem and personally committed to advocating for and advancing the good. The complexity of this issue demands that we rely on God for guidance and discernment.
Anonymous 10:00
Good comments. I think you recognize the trends. There are already signs of societal disintegration and we have not even reached the major event of the century - Blacks and Browns will soon outnumber Whites. This is a reason why many of the red states are following a strategy of voter supression. Another factor that I think will develop is a retreat into tribalism. The USA will cease to advance socially and go into retrograde motion. This will stoke the flames of civil war. A book worth looking at is "How Civil Wars Start" authored by Barbara F. Walter of the University of California San Diego. She believes we are in the opening roundns of a civil war right now.
And what does this have to do with Splinterdom? While all this domestic strife is happening on their doorsteps, they are waiting for Germany to attack us. Some have already claimed their position in the civil unrest instead of condemning it - as if it were not the undoing of the United States. They need to trade fantasy for realism.
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This entire website is full of liars.
Anonymous 8:48
There are so many diverse viewpoints on this blog, making a blanket statement like that condemns just about everything. Or, by another view, your statement says nothing. There are people who comment here that support Armstrongism and people that are against Armstrongism. My guess is that you don't know what you are talking about. No offense meant. We all get into that situation some time and some place. And you will find more truth in this tiny corner of the web than all of Mar-A-Lago.
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Anon 10:00:00 PM PST
‘The left stands for finally mainstreaming African Americans acknowledging the systemic racism which has always been part of our system…
I think Black intellectual Thomas Sowell would rigorously disagree with your comments.
As would Peggy Hubbard, Daniel Wells, Denzel Washington, Candice Owens, all black commentators to name a few.
Yes the Democrat Party and the collective left must indeed acknowledge their complicity for the Jim Crow laws, segregation,slavery, abortion on demand that has keep the Black American population stagnant, government dependency, black on black crime which is the greatest cause of murder for black Americans etc etc. The same societal ills we see in black neighbourhoods today reflect the plantations of slavery. The Democrats must also pay reparations to the descendants of slaves and to the families of white Americans who gave their lives to defeat the South in the civil war and free the slaves.
It is frightening that a major political party has its roots in such a divisive foundation and its policies have had little benefit to those whom it claims to represent. Fascism as A James Gregor in his masterful writings points out is phenomena of the left.
That was easy now let’s talk about Armstrongism, lol.
I wish I could fund research into whether there is a gene that makes some people more susceptible to fall for weird hoaxes.
I feel sad about some older relatives who fell for HWA's bombastic predictions and cautiously watched over them as they leaned in toward other cons.
Seems like Neo has the same tendencies - first he fell for HWA and now he's fallen so for political hyper-hype that he sees proof of its truth everywhere and must proclaim this truth to all who will listen.
Lonnie is right; Christians should not get highjacked by politics or pseudo-politics conspiracy theories.
Hey 1:13, Some racists I know have expressed the very same ideas you just shared! Isn't that amazing???
If we took Neo's statement from January 4, 2022 at 10:02: "First, we will have a little diversion called a civil war along racial lines." - and then told people it was Trump who said those words - there would be a massive outcry of rage.
I prefer to ignore Trump - but I would condemn such a statement, if Trump did make it.
There would also be rage if Trump used Neo's same words at 10:02 to claim the Whites would win the fight - and also rage if Trump claimed another race would win.
Many people would claim that such statements are amore of Trump's dog whistles to call his troops to action.
Many would say that by talking about a race war, Trump is conditioning people to accept its inevitability.
Trump claiming that Whites would win would be construed as Trump's attempt to boost the confidence of the white fighters and oppress and discourage the other races - since their loosing would result in their servitude.
Trump would be accused of inciting the gullible and unstable from all political sides and races.
Such recklessness from Trump would surely lead to him being banned on several platforms - even if Trump claimed that he was merely sharing his "opinion".
And, I would agree with all that criticism of Trump - had Trump communicated the same words Neo used.
Neo is so much like Trump - and HWA - scary, divisive, dangerous, and wrong.
Reminds me of the song by Sons of Korah, from Psalm 94 ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYbX-3_a98U
Anonymous January 5, 2022 at 1:13:00 PM
Well said!!
if you pray that your membership, get healing, but they don't; then pray that the evil non-membership gets a curse, will work. I guess people believe in power prayer in any way possible.
Anon 5:11:00 PM PST
‘Some racists I know have expressed the very same ideas you have just shared. Isn’t that amazing???’
Puzzled by this comment. The commentators mentioned above are black Americans. The comments are not ‘ideas’, they are simply what the above individuals have openly articulated, which are accessible to all via that information freeway the internet.
Enjoy your day.
Very true Anon Wed 8:48. Pathological dangerous liars if truth be told.
IIRC I learned about this via Rushdoony’s exhaustive “The Institutes of Biblical Law” and his references to imprecatory Psalms several decades ago now. So as a Christian I don’t see any contradiction between crying to God for divine vengeance or justice against those who commit evil or oppress and persecute innocent people who have done nothing immoral and at the same time reflecting Christ’s grace and goodness towards those very same people. For instance, I bear no one any ill will. I hope and pray for everyone I’ve known—family, friend or foe—to be saved and in God’s kingdom in the end. I will not avenge myself if an injustice is metered out to me. But, I will still pray that God will avenge me and my brethren against those who have been behind all the evil we’ve suffered at their hands for He alone can judge perfectly. Examples include the recent forced lockdowns and mandatory vaccines that have only brought to light in my country and state how hypocritical and duplicitous our politicians really are who say one thing and then later do the complete opposite by saying people won’t be forced to get a vaccine, but then later enforce vaccine mandates saying if you don’t get the vaccine you will be discriminated against and punished by being prohibited from working, shopping, traveling etc. Besides that ongoing evil there’s the other decades long evil of abortion, euthanasia, the injustice of protecting the lives of rapists, pedophiles and murderers by incarcerating them for years or decades or be freed rather than be executed while their victims and future victims’ lives are unprotected; bankers issuing paper money and usurious loans; the promotion of sodomy and other illicit sexual behavior that destroys the Christian family unit; etc. So for all of these crimes and more I pray to God to execute His righteous judgements against an unrepentant, antiChristian government and those who support it. I see it as my Christian duty to bring it to God’s attention daily as a reminder like the persistent widow and the judge of Christ’s parable as I pray for His Kingdom to come and His Will to be done and that right soon!
Looking back over this thread, I must say that I find it to be very interesting that Bill Watson's supporters see me as a bully. Bill suggests calling down curses on those who disagree with him (and their families), and I'm the bully? I'm the bully because I had the nerve to challenge the bully? That's rich - too rich!
This website challenges the false teachers and teachings of Armstrongism, and we're the liars? Is anyone else starting to see a pattern emerge here?
5:11, Have you ever heard of the term "Uncle Toms"? How about "contrarians"?
Dr. Condoleeza Rice is a very conservative Republican (though a Republican as the word was defined prior to White Nationalist president Donald Trump). Dr. Rice used to simply say that America was born with several birth defects, and leave it at that.
Anonymous 5:05, wrote "Seems like Neo has the same tendencies - first he fell for HWA and now he's fallen so for political hyper-hype that he sees proof of its truth everywhere and must proclaim this truth to all who will listen."
Apparently I stepped on your Trump gland and it started secreting its noxious and toxic juice. Gaslighting may work with your naive friends but it does not work with me. My guess is that it may be a matter of genetics. Surveys show that supporters of Dumpty are in the lower half of the class academically.
"Apparently I stepped on your Trump gland and it started secreting its noxious and toxic juice. "
This has to be my all time favorite comment on here!
It is not necessarily a disadvantage to be “in the lower half of the class academically”; I would argue that it can be an advantage:
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Neo writes, many times, that a race war is inevitable - and then he claims the Whites will win that war.
I don't feel comfortable with suppressing freedom of speech - but I am surprised that Neo's hate speech has not been banned on this blog.
The only purpose, related to this blog, that Neo's hate speech serves is displaying a classic case of prediction addiction those associated with Armstrongism tend to engage in.
Neo, like other Armstrongites, fall for a fallacy and then find "proofs" for their pet predictions from "experts" who share their delusions.
Also in classic Armstrongist fashion, when one calls Neo out on his absurd predictions/opinions - he accuses you of gaslighting and attempts to link you to Trump.
It's the typical Armstrongist reaction to their beloved fallacies being exposed - attack the accuser and link her/him to Satan (Trump).
Neo is also prone to bulling or insulting others who disagree with him; many Armstrongists exhibit narcistic tendencies with an inability to be introspective.
It's clearly evident that although Neo has come out of the doctrinal errors of Armstrongism, he has not grown past the behavioral patterns of Armstrongists.
3:00: So, what's your point? NEO, and others here, are very eloquently and succinctly countering the soul rotting heresies and errors of
Armstromgism, using a style and technique familiar to Armstrongites, one which establishes common ground, and should make truth accessible to people still in the cult. I am sure that in his regular daily life and travels, he is similarly able to dial into the mentalities of anyone with whom he is speaking. Personally, I believe he is doing a great job, as one really must when dealing with culties like Armstrongites, jihadic Muslims, or Qanon/MAGA types.
Hey January 7, 2022 at 6:36:00:
One of my points is:
A race war is a horrible thing.
Proclaiming the inevitability of a race war with the whites to win is a horrible thing called propaganda.
Propaganda is used by various groups because it gets results in the form of zealous believers who take action for the cause of the propaganda.
It's propaganda because no one can be sure the war will happen and if it did happen, the victor cannot be known - yet it is preached as a sure bet.
It's also propaganda because it stirs up great emotional responses from people on all possible sides - the gullible and the unstable have difficulty navigating these "truths" they can feel.
In your post, you cited groups that use propaganda: " Armstrongites, jihadic Muslims, or Qanon/MAGA types"
It appears that you can call out some groups that use propaganda as bad but fail to see you've been snookered by another type of propaganda.
That's another of my points:
Some that have been conned by Armstrongism tend to be easy prey for other types of propaganda, such as Trumpism or Neo's inevitability of a race war with white victors.
Not many people will hear Neo's screed; however, he has lent his voice to others who push the same propaganda.
That propaganda does hoodwink people to become true believers to the point they take action.
I don't want gullible and unstable whites to be swept up into the "truth" that a race war is coming and they must do their part to ensure the White victory.
I don't want people of other races to respond to this propaganda by becoming paranoid that all of their neighbors hate them, or being hoodwinked into believing in Neo's proclaimed white victory.
A third point is:
Pumping this propaganda demoralizes people specifically and society at large.
This divisive propaganda, just like Trumpism and Armstrongism does, paints one side as thoroughly evil and their side as pure truth - calling all to choose a side.
Then work of this propaganda is to make the claims a reality.
One of my unstated points (which I should have started with, a many days ago) is that Neo is good at exposing the harmfulness and falseness of Armstrongism - but that cause is diminished when he preaches other propaganda as the "truth".
Miller was more impactful in describing how Christians should not be swept away with politics.
Those who are Neo's friends should help him see that he has gone way into the weeds with his propaganda of the inevitability of a race war with white victors - and the many other hideous associated pieces of that propaganda.
Always a liar Jones. Fake identity glore which will all be exposed on judgment day.
5:53, have you even remotely taken into consideration the history of our country??? Not some secret history, but the history which you can read in popular textbooks in schools and colleges across the country. I believe that if you look at some of the events of the past, you will see that in the overall ebb and flow of attitudes and events, our history shows that subjugation of non-white races is a concern. So long as we have a government that continues to recognize this, and to enforce human rights for all people of all creeds and colors, there is relative safety.
When you can see and recognize the rise of white nationalism, and when dangerous hate groups are applauded as being "good people", it is time to sound a warning. The warning some of us are sounding here is not directed towards white people so that they might prepare themselves for victory over POC. It is rather a warning of a dangerous attitude which if taken to conclusion, will end up as our country replicating the sins of the Third Reich.
Massive problems caused by attitudes of racial superiority and entitlement can require many years to correct, and not all of the damage is even repairable, it is permanent! For hundreds of years, it was perfectly legal for white people to own black people, to exploit them in slave labor, and to abuse them. It was considered manifest destiny to take away the historic tribal lands of Native Americans, with a large part of this process involving genocide. Chinese people were brought to this country to build the railroads, and once the job was completed, were deported. The assets of loyal citizens of Japanese-American extraction were confiscated, and they were relocated to internment camps, while Americans of German and Italian ethnicities were not subjected to any such indignity.
Jews were not only persecuted in Germany. Where do you suppose the Catskills resorts and the Borscht Belt came from? They existed so that Jewish people could vacation in peace, without being refused service purely based on their race.
Back in the 1970s and '80s, Thomas Metzger was forecasting that we were perhaps ten years from the Balkanization of America, a time when the power of the federal government would be dissipated to the point where the "natural" animosities amongst the races in the melting pot would begin to tear the country apart. Metzger stated during the 2016 election season that there were not enough white supremacists to get a president elected, but that Donald Trump and Steve Bannon were "dog whistling" huge numbers of white people who were closeted racists.
Breitbart, from whence Bannon came, was the voice of the alt right movement, with a core belief that white identity is under attack by multicultural forces who use political correctness and social justice to undermine white peoples' civilization.
This stuff has not been happening in secret. If we allow it to continue unchecked and unabated, we are finished as a democracy. I would encourage anyone who doubts to Google "Thomas Homer-Dixon" Canadian political science professor.
Anonymous 1/8 @ 11:12,
Why did you stop using your real name? The exact opposite of myself. I started out with a pen name and finally settled on my own (but I was trying to protect family members then). Does your reversion to Anonymous have anything to do with the shadowy nature of your hit and run posts? OR Does it have something to do with hailing from Appalachia? Never mind, I'm beginning to understand how much fun this innuendo stuff really is!
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