Wednesday, August 21, 2013

Dennis Muses: Something Moot This Way Comes...In Ten Days

24 Unreasonable Reasonings
As we enter the last week of August, where Dave Pack has proved beyond all doubt  the amazing Church of God events and reunification that will occur as spoken of by the Minor Prophet Haggai about Dave Pack himself, let's take one final look at the "proof" for all of  this.  Shortly, it will matter not one bit and some will have some 'splanin to do.

Dave writes:
The Time Is NOW!
"Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them. Realize there are over 30 more reasons—many of them very powerful—that I have left off the list because some will be covered later or because they would only be recognized as proofs by our Headquarters ministry (involving various miracles, some big). Readers would be largely unable to appreciate them as proofs:"

Dave loves numbered reasons for everything.  30 Proofs of This and 90 Proofs of That are a common approach in his sermons.  Let's take a look.

1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this....

This assumes there is "understanding" or the understanding is correct to begin with. Dave's view of himself in Haggai as "Joshua" is not correct.  I guarantee you it is not correct.  A genuine understanding of the content and intent of the Book of Haggai guarantees you that Dave has gotten off to a very bad start in all this. I can take this position and be correct where Dave says if you don't agree, you are on the outside of his truth.

2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

Well...the entire New Testament is filled with our infamous "time is short," "the hour now is," " of things which must shortly come to pass," and "the day is far spent" comments about just how soon Jesus is coming. Of course that has been 2000 now years so I'd not get to excited about if God would inspire comments or scripture and not meant "Now."   Try to imagine God saying the above statements and saying "Behold I come quickly but  I'm taking my time. I am in no hurry."  Well actually I can imagine that.

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

See answer 2

4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance.

Why not. See answer 2.  There is plenty of proof that God says soon and means later. People are always ripe.

5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready?

There is NO connection between any organization "being ready" and being the organization that is the correct one to be ready.  The Catholic Church has awesome resources and is a bit more "ready" than Dave to do great things which does not prove any Deity is obligated to use them.  Dave is assuming these things mean the Deity IS notifying Dave when it seems Dave is actually notifying the Deity.

Circular Reasoning…… | Wildomar Magazine

6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year.

The Mega-Church down the road from Dave Pack and The Restored Church of God could hold all his buildings within itself.  I had dinner at Christ Church Episcopal Church, Elementary, Middle and High School this week and the Restored Church is nothing. Size matters...

7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.

So what...see #6

8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn.

Let's see the numbers.  How many maturing interests?  How many members make up Restored Church as of today?  How many visit requests?  How many ministers do you have and what are their names?  Where are your current churches?  How much did RCG take in last year?  Co Worker types?   We need to have you be about the numbers on this one.  What does "explosive" mean?

9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

"To us..." is very telling.  That is not the same as "God is..."  By these standards, God is pleased with many churches.  God is well pleased with Joel Olsteen and Benny Hinn.

10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.

Any you know this?  Soaking in "false ways" is what humans do for thousands of years on end. One more won't hurt.  I'm suspecting Dave might be concerned about one year with him having less access to their money. Could be just me.

Before You Accuse Someone of Circular Reasoning, Make Sure You Are

11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.

So what Dave?  That is not your responsibility.  You sound as if only you have the power to bring them in now so such things don't occur.  If any Deity wanted them to not suffer another year's loss, he/she knows how to finish the good work done in them I'm pretty sure, if I recall scripture correctly.  You're not the mother.

12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.

Now you have hit the nail on the head.  And they will be the most disillusioned.  But who wants illusions anyway so it's a good thing.  Dave is  skating on thin ice this reason.  This may be the only real prophecy he makes that actually comes true.

13) Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!

So what.  "God is able of these stone to raise up..."  I think Dave wants the instant version of things and few organizations , if any, materialize instantly manned and ready to go.  Setting dates, times and seasons where something "must" happen is going to prove a dangerous game and huge mistake.  It's called a Weinlander in COG code.

14) The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly.

Like it has to date?  This is a ridiculous reasoning.  In the New Testament all the Apostles and zealous unnamed deacons, elders, and members were dead wrong about the times they lived in.  Paul was totally wrong about Jesus return and had to eat crow at the end of his life claiming "there is laid up for me....." before he died. That original debacle has indeed made all future years unclear which is why thousands of humans have predicted the end that never comes over the past 2000 of them. It's reasonable to see the rise of "scoffers."  They really are just noticing reality.

15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!

Oh mercy Lord Jesus.  Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin were very confident of their decisions for the very same reasons.  I think we know why.  Praying and studying "fervently" is no proof of being correct.  I had done that for years over many topics all of which fell apart.  "Dear Lord, please bless the work and guide Mr. Armstrong" and "Help me to be the best minister for your people" come to mind.  Time would fail to speak of fervent prayer for children dying who died anyway.  Besides, your 16 headquarters types know not to cross Dave.

16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

Edgar  Cayce got details quickly too.  Dirrhea can hit suddenly and immediately but that is not a sign of good digestion.

17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT?

You keep repeating this "would not God ...if it wasn't" thing.  This is not a new reason.  Besides, the "his people" were the Jews of Haggai's time because why would God say that in Haggai to his people if he did not mean his people then?  Why would "his people'" be people 2500 years into the future.  I'm using your own reasoning here Dave.

18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent.

Yikes...and you know this?  So we've gone through all this so you could be God's man when God got around to it and THEN we get some relief?  I think Dave tends to tell the Deity what must be and when and not the other way around.  This "his leader" thing is troubling.  It is one of the few times Dave won't say "me."  Is this wiggle room?

19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position?

This of course assume God revealed any actual day or month.  Vast amounts of time are being wasted.  God put the early church in just such a position by turning "soon" into "but a day with the Lord is as a thousand years....and a thousand years as a day."  This is called an apologetic.  It was written in II Peter, not by Peter but later by church leader types who to reexplain the first century debacle of "soon" and "time is short."  Not to mention, "of things which must shortly come to pass."

20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua.

Gotcha!  If God revealed this to Dave four years ago, would not God have revealed it to the church four years ago? Why would God reveal it if it was not the time to tell everyone?  I'm just using Dave's reasoning on other proofs.  Was it in a vision?  Was it in a dream?   Tell us this reveal story please.  Or did Dave just read the Bible and say, "hey...that's ME!"

21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL?

This is not interesting at all.   I'm wondering of some lackey and kiss up told Dave that he was Joshua and that was the starting point.  HWA never thought of being a Apostle until someone told him he was one.  It was all downhill from there. See # 19 and # 20

22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.

Maybe the others have it right and Dave is the Devil's version?  Maybe pots are calling kettles black here?  I think we will soon see that Dave is standing in the muck of prophecy up to his eyeballs. 

23) With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.

Unless of course none of you matter to any Deity and you are on the wrong tracks theologically to begin with. 

24) World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now.

World conditons have always cried out "NOW"     "How long oh Lord wilt thou not avenge...." comes to mind.  That was 2000 years ago as well.  Actually world conditions cry out for "way back then."

So there you have it.  Dave calls these reasonings "powerful."  I don't.  When the premise is wrong everything that follows is as well.  This is a great example of this. Why bring this up now again?  Because in a mere 10 days none of this will matter.  Life will go on.  The world will have it's problems.  The economy will get closer to tanking and more people will get tazed for talking back to cops.  But the road to Wadsworth will be crowded on Saturday with folk going to Walmart, not church. 

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Michael said...

As other followers of this Packian drama have already noted, Pack is really betting all his chips on his illusions of grandeur.
At least if one prophecies a rapture, you could have a mass suicide, or claim that everyone's spirits have flown to heaven or something, but come August 31, the splinters are either together or not. Since one can safely assume they will not, his reputation would presumably be irreparably damaged. And if it's not some sort of ploy but he's truly delusional, I would think Dave Pack himself, the man,is going to entire a period of personal crisis, psychological trauma and possibly disbelief, all a result of his desired to see himself as a major figure in biblical prophecy.
Sure, everyone would like to be someone great, "The Prophesied One".
If, on the other hand, he has something sinister up his sleeve....

Byker Bob said...

Yahoo! Ten more days until this insufferable gasbag has written himself into nothingness. Oh, if only that would make him simply go away, and sink into his own failure, taking the last vestiges of Armstrongism with him!

But, it won't. Somehow, he will attempt to claim victory, and will continue to ruin peoples' lives.


Anonymous said...

It truly is circular reasoning.

And Davey Tightshorts certainly has not cornered the market on such stupidity; it's extant within Christianity at large. Davey just happens to have his own version of "inerrant Truth" like so many thousands of mainstream "Spirit-filled Christians" also have their widely varying interpretations of the Bible's "inerrant Truth".

I love that graphic in Dennis's post, of the circular reasoning thingy "proving" biblical infallibility with "because the Bible tells us so" being the operative sleazy salesman's selling point.

Heck, the funny thing is, is that the Bible doesn't even CLAIM to be the infallible word of God!

Why do people believe that the Bible is "the inerrant word of God"?

I'm reminded of a funny line from the Rodney Dangerfield movie Back to School, where he yells,

DennisCDiehl said...

Yes, I always felt it was an odd "proof" that the Bible was true because it said it was true and being the infallable word, what it says about itself is true...I think I just mixed myself up again... :)

This whacked out view Dave has still has me puzzled. This is not the calculated Dave I know nor the one who is willing to risk the farm on such things. I still don't get it.

Anonymous said...

After almost 50 some odd, and I do mean ODD, years of WCG exposure, I am still wondering why God would need any of us to do his "work." Now, with a clear head, I can see what a bunch of BS it all was and will always be.

Sweetblood777 said...

Check this out.

David Pack's sheep waiting for the right words from Dave.

Sweetblood777 said...

Denis:'This whacked out view Dave has still has me puzzled.'

He reminds me of Gollum in the movie Lord of the Rings.

My take: Gollum was originally know as Dave, but whose name was changed due to his disgusting habit of gulping down innocent sheep who trusted in him.

Gollum was once an aspiring servant but became twisted and deformed by the tithe.

Once tasted, his main desire for the sweetness that the tithe provided, overcame and enslaved him, to the point that he could think of nothing else.

Tithes, tithes, those precious tithes, belong to me, meeeeeeee!

And that my dear children is the story how Gollum lost his head. For he stuck his head out too far, just like a as a turtle, and all were exposed to see him as he really is.

Thus, he fell, down, down, down into the fire where he met his idol, where he too, had given all for the precious tithe.

DennisCDiehl said...

sweetblood, that video is hilarious

Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting Pack's 24 reasons why it's this year.

I really am amazed at the weak arguments being put forward. If another group had posted this, Pack would have shot them down in flames.

For someone who prides himself on his precision of teaching the truth, this is pathetic. I would have expected at the least some calculation found in an obscure prophecy that comes out at 2013. When will these people learn that understanding new truth does not mean God has chosen you to lead the church!

Maybe Pack is right, but he's the one who looks like a false shepherd, not everyone else.

To his credit, Pack has built up his work well. He waited to get the literature, website etc in place before he went on TV. And his work does seem to be growing rapidly.

The real reason for why it has to be this year seems to be "We're ready for you!".

Byker Bob said...

Anon 1:57,

I don't believe that RCG is in any way related to God, however Dave Pack is his own "glass ceiling". If some self-effacing individual with even rudimentary people skills were running it, this Haggai marketing plan would probably be somewhat effective. As it is, Pack's message is perceived almost like an invitation (more like command) to Hell. It's about like Hitler doing a targeted mailing to everyone around the world with a Jewish surname, extolling Germany as a hot vacation spot.


Anonymous said...

Frankly pack is proving the Bible true; he is fulfilling the words about false prophets in the end time and members having itching ears; he is also proving that a man is subject to the spirit of vanity, delusions of grandeur, etc.

e.g. some are subject to vile spirits, some to lying ones, others to violent ones.