Monday, October 14, 2013

Dennis Muses on Caution with those voices.

Awesome Knowledge—and a Great Parallel!

David C Pack says....

"The Hebrew reveals that this is God literally speaking with HIS VOICE! Make no mistake about this. Here is why: Not far down the road, thousands will hear God’s voice, while others will not. God will soon speak audibly to some and not others."

"If you have difficulty believing that Christ will speak from heaven, ask yourself why.   (Because I would not trust my life to the the voices or Dave Pack?)The Bible references God’s voice being used many times, but generally at critical junctures in history. Paul heard Christ’s literal voice on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Peter heard the same voice of Christ when he saw the vision of the clean and unclean animals on a sheet coming down from heaven (Acts 10). The serious reader will study these accounts—and be POWERFULLY INSPIRED at the paragraphs just presented!"

 "Get this point. Christ will use His actual voice to get the attention of His sheep. This is what He says, not what I say. (I still think this is what Dave Pack says...Je..Christ, not so much)But this is no surprise because He says in His Word that He will do this at times. And He has done it periodically. Christ intends to winnow out those who do not belong in His Church. He certainly will not speak to those who do not have His Spirit about coming back to a Temple of which they have never been a part—hence WHY some will not hear His voice and others will. Because people once attended the Worldwide Church of God or today are attending in a splinter is not relevant. Having God’s Spirit is relevant. Prophecy reveals that probably most will hear Christ’s voice and make the right decision. But others will not obey what they hear and Zechariah 11:10-11 explains that God will immediately—“in that day”—remove His Spirit and cut them off from Him  (Prophecy reveals "probably"?   Haggai reveals "probably not about Dave)

The hearing of voices in the head is a very common thing.  Just as many of the "demonic" symptoms in the New Testament coincidentally have all the symptoms of epilepsy or mental illness, so Biblical types telling others what the voices tell them to do are also of such origins. 

If you are a lurker here, educate yourself ahead of time so that caution will be available to you should Dave Pack start speaking more about voices in heads.  I can't imagine it would not be first all about the voice in HIS head as Christ would no doubt work FIRST with his chosen leaders. 

I have always been fascinated with Julian Jaynes theory of the Breakdown of the Bi Cameral mind which can explain mans tendency towards religion.  A fascinating read for those so inclined and his study of Old Testament prophets and kings is fascinating.  But the bottom line is that voices in the head is a very old unconscious behavior in humans.  Those who became more genuinely conscious as a human being left it behind.   Consciousness arose in humans more deeply when writing became the norm about 3000 years ago. It explains why there is little emotion in most of the Old Testament or reflective thinking.  The "I" was not well developed and the "We" ruled. King Saul was more a conscious character in the OT.  Samuel was more unconscious and prone to voices in the head behaviors and condemnation.   I always liked King Saul and often wondered why what Samuel hollared at him about was so bad.  Saul thought for himself.  Samuel head the voices in his head.  Long story I suppose. 
The Origin of COnsciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
I will resist being "the teacher" and simply say that I would urge care and caution to those who would mix their religious hopes, fears and needs with what we now know can be some serious mental health issues in those so disposed.  Just because it happened in the Bible is no guarantee it was actually a God speaking to anyone. Whole religions have been founded upon a schizophrenic leader and nations lead to war with a King who heard the voices urging  him on. 
Do your homework.  Trust no man to tell you what voices mean or what they might expect you to do.  There is NO EXCUSE in this age of information and medical studies in neurology and mind sciences to not update oneself from Bronze Age interpretations of events in the head and reality. 
Jesus may have "healed" the child who foamed at the mouth, writhed and twitched on the ground and acted really weird, but I would bet that if you waited twenty minutes, what we know as an epileptic seizure would have passed naturally leaving the child pretty whipped.  Dilantin could prevent that demon from coming back. 
Ezekiel heard lots of God's voice in his head.  He also laid on his side for over a year and flipped over for a few more days to make his point about whatever.  He also laid siege to a frying pan and cooked his food in his own poop.  Poop is the one ingredient that the current "Ezekiel Bread" on your store shelves leaves out of the mix.   Today, Ezekiel would be confined to a mental health facility until he could get his act together.,-Apostles,-and-Mental-Illness&id=90708



Joe Moeller said...

Would love to know what Pack would do when the voice in his head says the classical paradoxical statement:


Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Byker Bob said...

Hypothetically speaking, if God, or if Jesus Christ were to speak directly to someone, the only way in which an individual could verify that would be that what was said came to pass, or ended up being 100% true, without equivocation. Otherwise, it probably would be time for the "prophet" or messenger to check himself into the hospital for observation. The problem or "check valve" being, that the prevailing odds today are in favor of mental illnesses causing audible "spiritual" voices. There would need to be something phenomenal to distinguish a specific hearing of voices from some sort of garden variety psychotic break.

Taking it to the next level, is the credibility issue. The person, once again, hypothetically hearing the voices of the deity, would need to be a person who 1) was capable of understanding the voices, and 2) could accurately and faithfully represent what the voices had said without making his own additions or subtractions, and 3) the individual would simply be the messenger, not manipulating or exploiting whatever the situation might be to his own benefit or advantage.

Even if we leave open the possibility of God speaking to someone, David C. Pack fails any litmus test which could be applied. He is known to exaggerate. By his own words, he misunderstands or is slow to understand. He is not known for his compassion; does not suffer on behalf of the victims of his "interpretations". He has not set admirable examples of personal repentance, in fact he has met attempts to critique or correct him with indignance, and statements of self-righteousness. He lacks the humility necessary to be a servant of God, or of Jesus Christ. In fact, if he were to read these words, his reaction would be most likely be anger, not even momentary introspection.

The fact is that huge churches have been planted, have grown phenomenally, and are positively impacting the communities in which they are located without the leadership claiming that they are specifically referred to by obscure passages in the Bible, without someone claiming to have heard voices, and without someone taking on Biblical titles such as "apostle" or "prophet".

The fruits are evidenced by these churches for all the community to see, campusses are built, and the membership gives back to and serves the community. The leaders are bold in the right ways, and humble in the right ways, appropriate using God as the reference point, not arrogant, prone to exaggerate "self". These churches are rejected by certain ones who use Herbert W. Armstrong, or the metaArmstrongism of the splinters as the sole litmus test as to whether they are of God.

It seems obvious that so long as a pastor preaches perhaps 90% of the core of Armstrongism, a non-growing group of brainwashed individuals will give him a pass on all manner of ridiculous or irrational behavioral patterns, and will support him financially, even to their personal detriment. The arrogance in that is that the teachers know it and exploit it.


Corky said...

Somehow I doubt that they heard any voices in their heads. I have this sneaking suspicion that their words were well thought out according with their various agendas.

Of course, everything has been redacted and edited and the NT has been edited and rewritten so many times that it reached the point of complete obscuration by mid second century.

There can no sense be made of the complete mass of confusion that is called the bible. That there are those who believe they can is evidenced by the 40,000 different sects of Christendom. That's the religion where one theory is about as good (or bad) as another.

Anonymous said...


I've had interactions with a variety of Christians who have put forth as 'FACTS' things which are nutty, such as someone claiming people had been raised from the dead recently.

Of course, no proof was offered other than "I believe it because people in my megachurch told me", and "The mainstream press ignored it so it MUST be true!"

People thinking they have the "Holy Spirit" would do well to second-guess what they think the "Holy Spirit" is confirming for them, whether the leader of their church is David C Pack or some head of a megachurch.

The fraud Todd Bentley even claimed that many many people at his 'Lakeland Revival' in Florida had been raised from the dead.

What's totally crazy about that, is the fact that some people think the "Holy Spirit" has confirmed it as true for them, so they repeat the lies!

Anonymous said...

I still favor a Deity that can actually show up in person, prove Deityship and talk directly to people without the feeling it is halloween. God in the Bible tends to speak to individuals and it is the individuals that tell us "God saith to me..." That's cheating and not a credible contact. Whenever there is said to be a group encounterr there is confusion over just what happened .

Telling a story about a theophany is not good enough for belief in that story

Byker Bob said...

Good points, anonymous 2:04! Especially since the only kinds of prophets coming forward in the Armstrong movement seem to suffer from prophetic dyslexia! Now they don't make obvious dyslexic statements such as, "Dog tells us that in the nest 5-3 years leading up to the Minellium...." No, in their cases, timelines, races of people, history and prophecy, personal titles, and disasters become obscured and garbled as they are processed by their minds, rather than numbers and letters. The only things about which they do not get confused seem to be who is in charge, and where to send the money.


Douglas Becker said...

It is important to listen to those voices in your head so you can overcome your addictions, particularly those which involve the belief in British Israelism which is rather pernicious and difficult to eradicate (every news headline seems to bring the addiction right back again).

The secret to AVRT is to listen to the voices in your head and then tell them NO!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, is Daniel Ekechukwu a fraud?

Anonymous said...

Well I will tell you a story about voices in the head. My whole family followed my father into the church in the 1960's, except for my mother who hated it. She was schizophrenic. As a child I always thought the church had driven her mad, but as everyone said she was always weird, it just got worse when the rest of the family joined an American religion and my dad started sending them a lot of money. Ministers came around to the house and my mother would start railing and yelling and insulting them, they said she was demon possessed. I guess she was just doing what later many of us wanting to do when we saw a minister.

Not to deny she was seriously mentally ill. She told us all kinds of weird stories about what the voices in her head said, most of them were harmless and silly, but I did wonder when she informed us that men would go to the moon, whereas the church said they would never get there. She also told me I would leave the church when I was an adult, and I did at age 21.

I should add, she despite being mentally ill and ending up catatonic in a mental hospital was the only one in our family who saw the truth about WCG. The ministers said it was demons who were telling her to attack the church.

Head Usher said...

I know what you mean about King Saul. It's possible to interpret what the bible says in terms Saul being a catch-22 victim of the deity's Monday Morning Quarterbacking. The same thing happens in the military. If you're given an unlawful order, there are two ways to proceed, and both present risks to the subordinate. Either you can choose to think for yourself, and disobey an order, which tendency it is practically the sole purpose of boot camp to whip out of you. Or you can leave the ol' thinking cap turned off and follow the chain of command (definitely the less risky choice). And this is what Yahweh wanted of Saul. Except for when he didn't. Yahweh can getcha comin' and goin', so, I guess you don't want to not have divine favor. This only goes to show the capriciousness of the gods. You always know they're testing you, but you never know what they're testing you on. Contrast this with David, who did have divine favor, for whom the Monday Morning Quarterbacking worked in his favor. David could do anything he wanted and still be "a man after god's own heart," whatever that means. In fact, when David did screw up, Yahweh punished everyone except David, as if that made any sense. The moral of the story? Don't not have divine favor, whatever that means.

As far as Dave Pack and theophany goes, people hearing "literal voices," is hardly something restricted to the Judeo-Xian tradition. The word theophany is a Greek word and was used to refer to the manifestations of Greek gods to their followers. The Delphic oracle, who was thought to channel Apollo, is a good example of pagan theophany, and not coincidentally, the Delphians held an annual festival called Theophanies to celebrate the return of Apollo in the spring.

A couple years back on Radiolab they asked the rather insightful question, since we all hear an internal voice we attribute to ourselves, might it be possible that hearing other internal voices might just be a misattribution of our own internal voice to an external source? If one were to seriously believe that he's hearing an internal voice that is not, in fact, merely his own voice, why is it that god never appears or talks audibly to believers or groups of believers? Why is theophany always private and subjective, not just for Yahweh, but also for all the pagan gods too? Why do all gods behave as though they are all restricted by the same set of rules?