Friday, June 21, 2019

The Two Sides of HWA " appears the Sabbath was abolished in the NT and was replaced by nothing. Some day should be kept but the day is unimportant."

The Two Sides of HWA

In 1926, HWA does his famous 6-month intense study at a library. His study is about the Sabbath as we well remember.
In 1927, he writes an article; "The Foundation for Sunday Sacredness Crumbles". He teaches that worship on Sunday is pagan and it is an invention of the Catholic church. True Christians must keep the Sabbath, it's a sin if they don't.
But wait!!! There's more to the story!!

On February 23, 1928, he writes a letter to Duggar COG7D. HWA writes, 
" appears the Sabbath was abolished in the NT and was replaced by nothing. Some day should be kept but the day is unimportant. The bible doesn't command us to keep the Sabbath and there's no punishment for those who don't keep it."
In August 1928 he writes his grandparents, 
"'s not disobedience to not keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not necessary for salvation."
I guess this explains why Herb treated the Sabbath like any other day of the week. He would watch movies, Lakers basketball and Westerns, played cards and would wine and dine himself on that day too. While he enforced it on us as a matter of salvation. He really didn't believe it was. Thanks, Herb.

Herb's comments start at the 1:03 mark

published with permission, Facebook, MB


Anonymous said...

It would be nice to see the entire article he wrote.

Anonymous said...

Cognitive dissonance? Hypocrisy? HWA was definitely a man of contradictions. Idk his doubts probably never escaped him especially since as Dan Rogers explains c. 1:09:20-1:12:53 the interesting way HWA actually “proved” for himself Saturday was to be kept as the Sabbath in our day. It was basically a case of synchronicity. I think later via British-Israelism this belief would’ve been reinforced for him even more as he now considered himself an Israelite and a descendant of King David too. Somehow methinks if he confessed to people in his publications the real reason he believed in the sacredness of the Sabbath people would’ve looked on him like they do on a lot of people who think every coincidence is a sign from God. That’s definitely some “magic thinking” there for you! SMH!

Monnie said...

Our beloved leader told his daughter Dorothy that his followers were dumb sheep, so she needn't worry that the two of them would be seen by church members while they were dining and dancing on Friday night. That he concluded COG7 rejected God because it rejected his articles showed Herbert to have an extreme god complex. That he imposed an ironclad and onerous requirement on his followers that he felt to be extraneous is just stunning. When I think back on the many people I knew who were terminated from jobs and settled for inferior ones to "keep God's Holy Sabbath" I'm filled with anger at this narcissistic fraud. He had even more chutzpah than I'd given him credit for. I hope Karma has the old goat firmly fixed in its sights.

TLA said...

Acts 15 Jerusalem conference is unclear 2000 years after the fact,
It was originally called to order about circumcision and it is clear it was not a requirement for Gentiles.
Then the Gentiles were given a limited set of requirements which did not include the 10 commandments which is puzzling because who is in favor of murder and theft?
Peter also said the burden was unbearable. If a baby boy is circumcised at 8 old days old, he does not remember it, and is the burden difficult for the parents? So what exactly was the unbearable burdens and the yoke which was too hard to bear?

We then have Paul's later explanations of requirements in his epistles which also undo the meat offered to idols.
The problem we have today is they did not explain the common knowledge of the day, so now all we have is theories and speculations.
We also have the apostle to the Gentiles - Paul - not demanding tithes, and supporting himself by tent making (working with his hands to make a living).

HWA seems to have transformed his religion into a multi level marketing operation - very successful for him, not so much for the grunts. This also explains why he turned over the controls to Joe Sr - who was not qualified remotely to lead a church, but then neither was HWA - a man who (according to his autobiography) was a very successful businessman for at least a few (very few) months of his life.

Anonymous said...

The speaker refers to the autobiography of HWA as if it was Scripture, as if it was the truth. But, would you accept his autobiography as non-fiction? I suspect HWA wrote a propaganda piece to build up his image.

Anonymous said...

I recall 20 years ago a old timer AC Pastor let slip that Herbert W Armstrong told newly ordained ministers to observe Monday as their Sabbath.
Not Saturday, as they were working and needed to take a rest.

He was very matter of fact about it. I was astonished at his blunt honesty.

This article backs up what i heard. No wonder they are so vunerable to pomposity and unbelief they are keeping a Monday Sabbath.

Anonymous said...

I found it interesting where Dan Rogers spoke about an Autumn date near September/early October 1928 (a date beyond the dates referred to in the original post above) where HWA, still wondering about Sunday/Saturday as the Sabbath, prayed asking God to "clear my doubts for good," and it was on a Sunday when there was a Portland city-wide power failure, which prevented HWA from listening to a Sunday sermon broadcast on his radio. HWA's note said to himself said: "I could not worship that Sunday." It appears from that time forward his doubts were removed and HWA became a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath keeper without any more doubts.

I also think it was interesting that Dan Rogers finally recognized that HWA was "just a man," just like himself...and other men! Oh, and Dan finally learned after many years of being associated with the former Worldwide Church of God what the "real heritage" for his Grace Communion group was/is.

Now, sometime I plan to go back and listen to that video from the beginning, rather than starting to listen from near the halfway point.


Tonto said...

What Herb said or didn't say about the Sabbath is frankly irrelevant. The man is/was not the Pope, or the spokesperson on Earth for God about anything.

If he drank coffee on the Day of Atonement, or went to Laker games on the Sabbath, etc., does not establish any kind of "provenance" for what is good and righteous conduct. HWA was obviously a conflicted and confused man, who "with a whiff and swipe of his hand" established edicts, pronounced disfellowshiping spiritual death sentences, and any kind of wild manner of bizarre pronouncements. The man acted like a petty despotic dictator, much like the kind he often would visit on his trips.

Gordon Feil said...

I listened to a bit of that talk before I fell asleep. The lecture isn't boring. I was just very sleepy. Someone rushing to retrieve a dead guy's private papers reminds me of medieval kingly succession in England before the laws of primogeniture were firmly entrenched. To become king, you mainly had to seize the dead King's Treasury. Of course you also had to be related to him. So, for example, when Henry II died, Richard hastened to Winchester to grab the loot, and with it, the kingship.

I am sure that in the Armstrong papers where to be found some interesting documents. What I do not understand is how and why the letters cited would have been there. Before email and fax, letters would normally have resided with the recipient rather than the sender. For example, someone assembled letters of Oscar Wilde from various sources and compiled them into an entertaining book. Wilde did not keep the letters he had sent. It seems to me, that someone in the Church of God (Seventh Day), having looked at Duggar's mail, would have by now have drawn attention to some of the statements attributed to Herbert Armstrong.

Anonymous said...

@ 6:07 AM, I wonder whether we heard that story from the same AC old-timer, but I remember it a little differently. The way I heard it told, Monday was supposed to be the ministers' "day of rest" but there wasn't any implication that it was an alternate Sabbath, as their downtime Monday was for their own rest and recreation, not a time to honor God.

Monnie said...

I'd like to add that it was just a few yrs later that Herbert began his sexual relationship with his daughter Dorothy, a relationship which ended not long before she married and escaped her personal hell with her father. By that time, Herbert had already TWICE failed in predicting the Apocalypse.

Anonymous said...

Is this what Grace Communion are reduced to 25 years after the Holy Spirit is supposed to have released them from lies ??
Still mummering on about long dead HWA? How many years has he been dead again 30 and counting.

Skilfully comparing a young HWA writings when he was finding his feet in scripture and discovering God, with HWA when he was old, blind and spoilt.

Grace Comunion have come a long way since 1995 not.

Anonymous said...

I see no evidence for karma.

What About The Truth said...

I never thought to put into an aggregate all of the human weaknesses, misconduct and abnormal behavior of HWA portrayed in his autobiography.

As a wide eyed 17 year old kid in the early 80's I heard one of the most profound statements I had ever heard. "Go grab a bible and blow the dust off of it and don't believe me, believe the bible"! That I and many others got caught up in following the narrative to a tee via the books and booklets, correspondence course, bible studies and sermons is to our guilt and applicable to our youthful naivete.

I think most would agree we are not following the 20 year old version of HWA or the the 30, 40, 50 ,60, 70, 80, or 90 year old version. I don't care to follow the 20, 30, 40, or 50 year old version of myself either.

Mr. Rogers celebrates where he is at now in life with those in his audience. That he celebrates "grace" as the crowning achievement of a 90 year church history is interesting.
Wouldn't grace be more celebrated in the beginning of the Christian walk as one of the means to have the freedom to go on and build a relationship with God that He desires? When Peter stated that we are to grow in grace and knowledge it was in the context of a relational aspect towards Jesus Christ.

In the judgement day, Jesus Christ doesn't want to hear about how many days or how perfect we kept them. He doesn't want to hear about how perfectly we tithed. He doesn't want to hear about how perfectly we defined him or how many times we said faith or grace. I can only imagine two answers coming from Jesus Christ to any of our pleas; I know you or I know you not.

In the day of reconciliation for the 400-700 organizations that came out from just the one man Herbert W. Armstrong, What will be the common denominator? Does anyone think that Jesus Christ is going to say that just one of them got it all right? Since none of them have it all right, it is not about an organization, but most assuredly it is about individuals.

The day is coming for the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel just as it is for the body of Christ into one organization again. The celebration for the bringer of truth should be quite a spectacle for mankind whether it be 6000, 4000, 2000 or 90 years of time.

Anonymous said...

The 'sign' hwa 'received' of a big power failure in Portland that Sunday could be interpreted a few ways: The way I'd interpret it would be to rest on Sundays!

Anonymous said...

"... a conflicted and confused man, who "with a whiff and swipe of his hand" established edicts, pronounced disfellowshipping spiritual death sentences, and any kind of wild manner of bizarre pronouncements. The man acted like a petty despotic dictator..."

And created a culture, attracting those who behave the same... mostly in their personal or family life. Very destructive.

Gordon Feil said...

Dan Rogers disputes that Herbert was not a COG7 member. Herbert and he are talking apples and oranges. I am pretty sure that Herbert was not a member of the General Conference in Stanberry. That is probably what he was thinking when he disavowed membership. In those days the was an Oregon conference, and i expect that his membership in that group allowed him to be selected as an elder.

Anonymous said...

Do Jewish Rabbi's do that? Did Jesus Christ do that ?

Anonymous said...

I haven't listened to the whole one hour sermon, but from what I did hear, my impression is that of a shepherd mudding the waters for the sheep. As God points out in the OT, the shepherds drink, or used to drink from the clear water, and now give muddy water for the sheep to drink.

How about The Muddy Water Church Of God.

nck said...

What an interesting man.
His wife born in Rhode Island where the first American Sabbatarians met.
His son's initials, spelling SEPORR, then being the main person responsible for selling SEPORR, as he sold out the entire church.

And of course having pastored Winston-Salem, need I say more..........................

(of course I am just being funny since I find Rogers talk interesting, I may not share his conclusions, but it is not new to me that HWA was about the most tolerating person ever of other christians of ALL christendom since he is the ONLY preacher who offered a rational explanation for salvation for all humanity instead of condemning others to hell) Most who disagree with me always try and rationalize away that half all humans who ever existed had no concept of what christian living is about.


Anonymous said...

Grace Communion International retained the two worst aspects of WCG, the autocratic control and the willingness to lie to church members. GCI offers nothing to a believing Christian that cannot be found more authentically in another denomination. As Gordon suggested, above, Rogers is either disingenuous or just plain stupid in several of his assertions, revealing that he is either a baby-Tkach willing to say whatever serves his cause, or more likely that he is another spoiled brat insider who doesn't realize just how little he knows, but has never faced any consequences for being called out for his ignorance.

Anonymous said...

2:00 PM asked:

Do Jewish Rabbi's do that? Did Jesus Christ do that ?

Jesus got on the boat and fled the crowd when he was done preaching. Herbert's recommendation to his ministers was the same. Since most church activities took place on Saturday or Sunday, Monday became the day of rest, not a day of worship.

And, yes, rabbis commonly take a day of rest OTHER than their worship-day. I don't know why you specify "Jewish Rabbis" as I'm not familiar with very many Muslim Rabbis or Buddhist Rabbis, but I assume they do much the same, once they get over their religious confusion.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

I'm skeptical by nature. I would like to see authenticated the COG7D documents which Dan Rodgers refers to. I agree with Gordon Fell's observation that these documents should have come to light much sooner while Armstrong was alive during the hyper growth years of the WCG - particularly since HWA was labeling the Church of God, Seventh Day as the dead Sardis era Church.


TLA said...

WCG went from Armstrongism to Tkachism.
Same my way or the highway.
Same multi level marketing strategy with the bulk of the rewards going to the top of the pyramid.