Sunday, December 27, 2015

Living Church of God: Did Doug Winnail Take A Swipe At Rod Meredith's Lack Of Love?

Doug Winnail really laid it on thick in his December 18, 2015 LCG Weekly Update. His remarks were made following the latest LCG Counsel of Elders meeting in which there was much disunity in the "most unified church EVER" about the direction of the church, doctrinal upgrades/theories, tactics to address all the bad PR they have earned in the last year and most especially WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE OVER-EXTENDED FINANCIALLY.  Counsel members all had to put their pet projects on the table for possible budget cuts. Alliances were formed and politics ruled the week. Winnail likely had all of that fresh in his mind when he penned this Update.

Sadly, anyone close to LCG headquarters or close to any honest minister who is willing to openly share his thoughts and observations about church government, knows what a load of crap these statements are coming from the head of Church Administration of one of the most corrupt and carnal church headquarters ever in the ACOG movement.

Winnail admonishes those in LCG to "develop and exercise Godly Love". Most of us would completely agree that Godly love is a real rarity in LCG's higher ups. Doug goes on to define Godly love as, "an unselfish outgoing concern for others" which again is true but in stark contrast to the self-serving, greedy, power hungry RCM and his LCG ministry that demands total obedience and admiration from their subjects. They expect to be served and are far too high and mighty to ever lower themselves to the level of a servant. The admiration and submission that many in LCG give them (think of the long lines at the Feast just to meet and shake the hand of Richard Ames or Rod Meredith) just fuels the flames of their over grown egos. The men at headquarters really impress themselves!

The best line in the whole piece is, "Godly love does not seek its own way; it is calm and not easily provoked, it does not jump to conclusions or assign motives or sit in judgment of others. Instead, Godly Love is gracious and forgiving". Seriously?! Rod Meredith is one of the most spoiled, narcissistic, self-seeking men I have ever met. He FREQUENTLY jumps to conclusions and assigns motives. He is RARELY gracious and forgiving and feels that as 3rd in all the universe, it is not only his right, but his duty to sit in judgment of WHOMEVER HE CHOOSES. 

It really makes one wonder if Winnail was aiming this piece directly at Meredith himself...

The Most Important Quality
Most of God’s people understand the importance of keeping the commandments, the Sabbath, the Holy Days and the health laws of the Bible. They also know the importance of government, tithing, faith and watching for the fulfillment of prophecy. Yet sometimes, in our zeal to obey the laws of God, we can overlook something else that is even more important—the need to develop and exercise Godly Love. We are told in the Scriptures that without Godly Love, we are nothing (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). Here the biblical word for love (agape) refers to an unselfish outgoing concern for others. In 1 Corinthians 13, the Apostle Paul states that Godly Love does not seek its own way; it is calm and not easily provoked, it does not jump to conclusions or assign motives or sit in judgment of others. Instead, Godly Love is gracious and forgiving. It is positive and focuses on what is right and true. It never fails or falters. Godly Love is the most important fruit of God’s Spirit that we must nourish and cultivate if we hope to become like our Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ because God is love (1 John 4:8). Let’s make that our goal. Let’s ask God to help us learn how to love Him and love others as He does, so we can develop this most important quality of Godly Love. Have a profitable Sabbath,Douglas S. Winnail 


Scared by LCG said...

Dr. Doofy Doug is trying to position himself to be the opposite of Weston so that the peeps have a distinct choice of who they want to follow.

After all the minions have been through, you’d think they’d align behind Winnail but, those who adore RCM’s iron fist will be begging for more from Weston.

Winnail used to only speak about the Sabbath but, this love gig is making him unique in the LCG – I bet he got the idea from his wife, who has strayed outside of Armstrongism.

Anonymous said...

Winnail's comments were read during the announcements at LCG services in Kansas City, and when the pastor, Rand Millich (who is also on the COE), got to the part "we can overlook something else that is even more important" he stuttered at the word "more" and then graciously corrected it by saying, "or maybe we should say equally important in some ways".

Byker Bob said...

Really? It doesn't matter. Even if Winnail left, it's not as if he wouldn't start his own Armstrongite splinter. So, the crap self-perpetuates, yet by virtue of further splintering becomes more impotent.

Also, "Have a profitable sabbath"? How about, "Have a spiritually enlightening sabbath"? Oops, forgot. Spiritual enlightenment can only come from their ministers! No direct relationships allowed with Father God or Jesus Christ.


Anonymous said...

In fact "unselfish outgoing concern for others" is not, l repeat is not biblical. This is one of Armstrong untruths that his followers have bought, line hook and sinker. In the real world, the mindset of outgoing concern has to be earned as in Gods way of trade. It is not a right or a entitlement. I approach my pet with outgoing concern, l approach family and friends that love me with outgoing concern, but strangers or my enemies? Do the Psalms of David call for outgoing concern foe his enemies or something else? This is what happens when people fail to enter through the narrow gate, they begin to cheat and rig the rules. Demanding outgoing concern is the wolf talking to the lambs, it's the tares talking to the converted. A responsible person approaches another person in a mental neutral state, responding to what's in front of them. In the background is the spirit of benevolence toward that person. And that is it. Nothing else. If someone wants my outgoing concern, let them court me, and earn it. I am not Father Christmas.
Outgoing concern also means giving another my mental energy or narcissistic supply as it's termed today. This is mental energy l need for my daily living and growth. Again there should be trade in this regard, otherwise l an being robbed. Robbing other people of their mental energy via verbal abuse or flogging the conversion is something most church members, including the ministers, are highly skilled at. They have black belts, doctorates in this ploy. The commandment id 'do not steal' forbids 'outgoing concern' as it is meant in the church. Granted there is some ambiguity in the expression, that is usually the case with deception. Do not let these crooks rob you folks.

Anonymous said...

I can't figure out if Winnail is 1. trying to separate himself from the loveless, grudge-bearing tyrants he works with or 2. correcting the bully mentality ministry or 3. use smoke and mirror to make LCG look like something it isn't in an effort to counter reality and confuse the sheep.

Anonymous said...

I find removed comments to be extremely titillating. I'm left wondering, "did the author want it removed or did the blog moderator remove it? What was said?"

So intriguing and mysterious!

Anonymous said...

Doug hit it hard again this week in the comments section of the Weekly Update. He is definitely up to something.

Everything he does is calculated and fully contrived. He's like a chess player; always 3 steps ahead.

One can say a lot of things about him but one thing is for sure... he sets a goal and is willing to be patient and persistent, changing his tack if necessary, all to get what he wants in the end.

The question is, what's Doug's goal?

Anonymous said...

To Scared

His wife is a mainstream Christian who understands the love and grace of our Lord that many in LCG can not grasp and want to de-emphasis (because being a legalist is so much easier than keeping the spirit of the law). Maybe DSW left his lap top open and she submitted these comments.

Just a thought.

Retired Prof said...

Anonymous 12:06 said, "In fact 'unselfish outgoing concern for others' is not, l repeat is not biblical."

Yes, you've established that several times: the message of the entire Bible is encapsulated in the parable of the talents, which mandates that "God's way is the way of trade." I'm sure all followers of atheist Ayn Rand are behind you on that 100%.

Now you need to add to your rhetorical toolbox a refutation of the bleeding-heart liberals' misreading of some of Jesus' sayings, in which they say he taught that Christians should offer unconditional aid to victims of misfortune. For example, you need to show that the parable of the good Samaritan is incomplete, since it leaves out the part where the Samaritan sent the robbery victim a bill, which he duly paid. Or maybe you could explain that the Samaritan's mistake was one of scripture's bad examples, like the time Noah's daughters had an orgy with him when they caught him drunk.

Anonymous said...

If/when a split happens, DSW will stick with the side that gets LU. LU is a failure in that it hasn't attracted the youth of LCG. Instead it is mid-aged or senior individuals who are taking most courses. Plus with a cost of over $300 a class, why would a young person want to go into debit for a piece of paper that gets them nothing except leadership consideration within LCG.

Anonymous said...

I have heard the term legalist reviled many times by tele evangelists but l have never heard a definition given or supporting scriptures. It seems like a club people use against anyone they morally disagree with.

Anonymous said...

Doug Winnail, writing like a babe, wrote: "... Godly Love is the most important fruit of God’s Spirit that we must nourish and cultivate..."

Is Doug Winnail "preaching to the choir?" Don't the "Living" group members already know that? Besides where is Doug's proof for nourishing and cultivating? Where are the scriptures to back that up.

Is Doug Winnail perceiving that love is missing in the live of the "Living" members, perhaps even of Rod Meredith himself?

Why do people have to be hammered about love, love, love, love............? Besides how does one nourish and cultivate something they don't have b/c God must first give that love. Quantity is up to God!

Once upon a time I was attending the Catholic church and they'd ask for frequently for 2 or 3 $offerings$ for this and that, and they usually accompanied it was some message about "love!" In the Catholic church the mammon made the service there "profitable!"

Well, perhaps Doug needs to consider: why isn't love more evident in "Living" amongst their members? Is Doug blind to seeing that love? Or, is that love really absent?

Scriptures indicate that faith, like love, is a FRUIT OF GOD'S SPIRIT...and God gives out that faith, like love, by measure, by proportion:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the MEASURE of faith.

:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the PROPORTION of faith;

If love is absent, then it demonstrates that God's Spirit isn't working with the individuals, who lack a measure/proportion of love. God must give it! Or, one won't have that Godly love, that comes from God's Spirit.

Anon 6::56 AM said that Doug's wife: " a mainstream Christian who understands the love and grace of our Lord..."

Well, grace comes from God also! Maybe Doug's wife is onto something there.

As far as human beings striving to impress others with love, whether of God or not, God would say this:

"That no flesh should glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:29

Is Doug striving to encourage some to "glory in love" somehow?

Living like United (and Cogwa), etc. are all manmade organizations thinking they are "of God," but by their fruits we know them. If there is a lack of Godly love in the lives of people, then guess what??????????.........


Nopers said...

I attended the Kansas City LCG for their services on 12/26/2015 and instead of the pastor giving a message they had a live stream of their Charlotte services. There were several surprises for me including applauding for the main speaker before and after his talk, which I thought they didn't do. Also Wallace Smith was sort of a emcee who spoke just to the streaming camera as if we needed to be guided by the hand and told that this is a live church service and how this and that works, like nobody has ever seen a live church service on TV before. The emcee even said how nervous he was about the whole affair. Then he took several minutes to point out that this wasn't a Christmas celebration since it was being held the day after Christmas.

But the biggest surprise was after the live stream ended the pastor in Kansas City, Rand Millich, came up on stage to make some announcements, most of which were simple things about local activities. However one thing he added was an instruction to the congregation that if new people start attending because of the live stream, to not tell the new people everything that the Church teaches. He didn't say what not to tell the exactly, but it sure creeped me the hell out. WTF!?

Anonymous said...

11:35 AM I don't blindly believe what Armstrong or Rand or anyone says. I listen to what they say, and consider if that's what God created. Most people in the Armstrong churches have had their sense of normalcy twisted and their minds imprisoned by hearing the same lies over and over and over and over. The 'give way' and 'outgoing concern' are two prime examples. If something is true, it conforms to reality and incessant repetition is not necessary. That repetitive commie type brainwashing is being used, is proof that lies are being pushed. When the deception is successful, it takes a outsider like Rand or similar to point out the error because the victims cannot see it. As an example, on the day of Atonement, God HImself must choose which of the two goats is Satan and which is Christ. The deception is so great, that it takes an outsider, and in this case God, to point out the truth. The losers in Gods church can't make it in the real world of trade, so they cheat by:
1 Rule rigging, 'what's mine is mine and what's your is mine.'
2. Shifting personal boundaries. The victims are supposed to resign themselves to being robbed and being the victim of bullying. In truth, people have a right to be free from robbery and free from violence, free from deception, and to be treated with respect and dignity. I can hear the church thugs laughing.
3. Mentally tearing people down and twisting their sense of normality to obtain power and superiority over their victims. This is what Satan reverted to when he became a murderer. Hence in the churches, peoples self image, self confidence, self esteem (hence no birthday parties) is being constantly attacked. The murderous ploy of harsh verbal criticism (a favorite of the ministers) achieves all the above.
There are other lesser deadly ploys like teaching people to look away from reality, which Christs 'you shall know them by their fruits' refutes, and to only consider what the 'experts' say. They teach to not look at the world around you, since a glance with disprove the most sophisticated bible twisting.
Your reply offered no serious reasoning or bible references, only mockery. This is typical. Mock, snear and smear, revile, belittle, character assassinate, intimidate, blackmail, extortion etc etc are your only comeback.

Anonymous said...

To: December 28, 2015 at 1:08 PM

A legalist is any of the Pharisees in the Bible who insisted on law over love and hated that Jesus was speaking about and giving love to the people.

In the here and now, a legalist is any of the COG leaders who also deny Jesus and prefer a message of salvation by works of the law over salvation by love.

A simple test to uncover a legalist cult is to ask if they have any sermon or booklet on John 3:16. If they laugh at you and say that is not the Gospel they preach - they are dangerous legalists.

Retired Prof said...

Anonymous at 6:10 PM, you say I gave no Bible references. Are the parable of the good Samaritan and the post-flood orgy Noah' daughters tricked him into not in the Bible?

If those are not enough, let me repost a lightly edited version of a comment I made on a previous thread, where I mentioned plenty of Bible stories, all of which support your value system. Because of it length, it will have to appear in another box.

Retired Prof said...

Anonymous trade person, you have an interesting way of reading the Bible. I love it!

Like other fundamentalists, you take it as a given that your god gave humanity the Bible as a complete, consistent guide to how we should run our lives. Somehow or another, he managed to arrange things so that an anthology including diverse literary genres, composed over many generations by many authors, working in different cultural environments, and afflicted with different mixtures of individual quirks, nevertheless expresses a coherent set of moral and spiritual principles. Most advocates of your view go to great lengths to explain that obvious contradictions in the text are only apparent, and do not actually clash at all. Refreshingly, you ignore such complications and go straight to the single story that you maintain holds the key to the whole Bible: the parable of the talents, in which employees are chided for keeping money safe by hiding it and rewarded for investing it and drawing interest.

That story was a metaphor meant to illustrate the principle that Christians must amplify and enrich their character by building on whatever spiritual gifts they possess. In the technical jargon of rhetorical studies, that essential meaning is the "tenor." It is carried by the "vehicle," which in this case is the act of investing money. It might be easier to see the relationship if we call the tenor “product” and refer to the vehicle as “package.” This leads to what I admire most about your stratagem. Not only do you ignore nearly the whole Bible and condense it into one simple metaphoric story; in that story you ignore the tenor and hold up for our admiring gaze the vehicle. You imply that the package is worth more than the product. What you explicitly tell us is, “God’s way is the way of trade.”

Like I said, I love it.

I love it so much, it inspires me to look for other scriptures to corroborate that lesson and amplify it. You and your Chamber of Commerce friends get impatient with long, involved explanations and prefer the simplicity of a single sound bite, but bear with me. Here is a list of additional sound bites that can help make your case for capitalism. Consider it the biblical equivalent of “news you can use.”

1. God’s way is the way of showing who’s boss.
• Adam and Eve, brought to subjection for disobeying a command they were expected to disobey.
• Job, tormented to demonstrate that he shouldn’t get uppity and ask difficult questions, rewarded only after knuckling under.
• Abraham, ordered to slash his son’s throat just because. (This example should ease the consciences of bosses who oppress their employees merely to satisfy their sadistic urges.)
2. God’s way is the way of unfair advantage.
• Jacob, catching Esau in a weak moment and trading him lentil soup to get his inheritance.
3. God’s way is the way of fraud.
• Jacob (again), impersonating his brother to trick his father into validating his unfairly acquired birthright.
4. God’s way is the way of downsizing.
• The Great Flood, imposed on a workforce that had grown unruly and unproductive.
5. God’s way is the way of outsourcing.
• The torments of Job, carried out by Satan, who was subcontracting for the Lord.
6. God’s way is the way of genocide, because trade cannot be profitable except under the aegis of business-friendly government.
• The plagues of Egypt.
• Jericho, turned to rubble because it stood in the way of Israelite progress, along with several other Canaanite communities, as recounted in Deuteronomy.
• The Jebusite wars, in Judges 19-20.

These are just examples. You can find many other Bible stories that support capitalist practices currently in vogue. Furthermore, interested entrepreneurs may find other helpful hints.

Maximize profits by studying the Prophets!

Byker Bob said...

Behavioral scientists have shown that people on the low end of the intelligence scale often believe that they are quite intelligent. So, it is no surprise that legalists would be confused as to the definition of legalism, even though the narratives in the Bible covering Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees illustrate it perfectly. He told people to even leave in the middle of a sacred offering to resolve a very human issue with a brother. It is plain where His priorities were. There are those who go so far as to say that love for fellow man is the most profound way to demonstrate our love for God.

I also have to laugh when people say they just can't comprehend the trinity. If you can believe in two, three is easy. What they really mean is that they don't believe in the trinity.


Ralph said...

on December 28, 2015 at 8:32 PM
Anonymous said..

"by works of the law over salvation by love"

What do you say are the:-" of the law...."?


Anonymous said...

This is the trading guy. It seems l've flushed out a Jesuit called Retired Prof. He has a black belt in subterfuge, common to their order. The Armstrong splinters had to call in a gun slinger from outa town. I'll get back to his comments.

Anonymous said...

I ultimately left LCG because there is no love in the organization. The ministers don't love the brethren and the brethren don't love each other. It's so fake. Yeah sure they make a limited effort to make it appear as if they do but try missing church for a couple weeks and see if anyone misses you. Disagree with a minister and see if he still "loves" you. Leave the church and see if anyone tries to "save" you. They don't care so it's not gonna happen.

LCG is completely blinded to love and "out-going concern". They love money, obedience, power, control, submitting ass-kissing subjects and legalism.

It's easy to keep Holy Days and the Sabbath. They are physical. Anyone can do it. But come to the weightier issues which are much harder to keep, which require God's help and daily character growth with on-going introspection, they utterly fail.

There is no way LCG is God's church.

People in LCG are blinded and being slowly cooked to death in a pot of complacency. How many red flags does it take people? Save yourselves while you still can.

Anonymous said...

i for one am glad that dr. winnail is at least alluding to this very Christian of concepts; over the past 15 to 20 years, from time to time i would propose that lcg should focus more on love and how it relates to the root of the Holy Spirit...

i can remember once that an elder in lcg came up to me after services and chanted to me "1 Corinthians 11, 1 Corinthians 11!" in reference to the fact that i had long hair...i immediately chimed "1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 13!"...

my point is that lcg, like frankly most american churches, are obsessed with superficial matters and ignore the weightier matters of the Law...

Anonymous said...

To anon December 29, 2015 at 1:29 PM,

Is Retired Prof really a Jesuit, or are you just labeling him that way?

'Armstrongist splinters calling in a gun slinger from outta town?'

Yikes! Part of HWA's legacy is that some of those once in it are now very full of themselves- even to the extent of thinking that those who read their words don't deserve plain language.

People thinking they have the Holy Spirit: They're under the influence of a mind-warping psychological agent that acts like a bad drug.

Retired Prof said...

No, I'm not a Jesuit. I'm not even a Catholic. I tried, but gave up because I never could master the doctrine of original sin. Every time I thought I had come up with one, it turned out somebody else had thought of it first.

The way I see it, I've got a better chance of living up to John Calvin's doctrine of total depravity.

Anonymous said...

December 30, 2015 at 6:37 AM. You are so typical of church members. When I attended the Armstrong church, I couldn't open my mouth and express an opinion without being verbally abused. Social, moral barbarians.

Anonymous said...

Well, this is the Information Age. Look it up! You no longer have to wait for a day you can drive to the library.

Priam said...

Nopers of December 28, 2015 at 4:25 PM

Let's correct and deal with some of the things you wrote.

Wallace Smith did not take several minutes saying that it was not a Christmas service you were watching. He spent well under one minute.

The reason he gave it was not a Christmas service was that LCG does not observe Christmas. His reference to 26th Dec was to say, (I paraphrase) "Just because this is in close proximity to Christmas, do not assume this is a Christmas service."

What type of doctrines might Rand Millich have wanted members not to teach to newbies? Oh, maybe things like - not taking part in world's politics, for one. That is something very precious to many people; so why offend them straight off? Even Jesus Christ Himself had certain of His teachings rejected and followers who turned away from Him. It was Him who taught "Don't cast your pearls before swine". In other words, Christ taught that His disciples should not teach indiscriminately to everyone. LCG would be on the side of Christ in this practice, wouldn't it?

Sorry to hear that Rand Millich's wise instruction "creeped [you] the hell out". That says a lot about you.

Anonymous said...

Priam - Walrus G. Smith is such a blubbering dolt and RCM butt muncher, he easily makes 30 seconds seem like an Armstongite 19 year time cycle. Who could possibly be watching and not know LCG is not down with Christmas? Oh yeah, after a long weekend of partying under the Christmas deco, he had to put the damper on the spirits of the LCG members and kill their joy with a proclamation that LCG is the Grinch that rejects Jesus, his birth, and his light entering the world. Furthermore, LCG has no pearls. They've squandered all the tithe plunder on Lil Jimmie's McMansion and Dr. Dufus Douglas' play university.

Anonymous said...

Anon 706 wants to look down on the person who was creeped out by Milach (in true LCG form - they have mastered the superiority complex)but I have a question for anon 706...

YOU are in a church that frowns on private Bible study.
YOU are in a church that frowns on it's members discussing scripture without an LCG minister present.
YOU are in a church that asks its members not to fully disclose the church's doctrines to new comers because it doesn't want it's beliefs to be fully transparent.

What do you think these things say about you and LCG?

In reality, your post really "says a lot about you".

Priam said...

Have you ever noticed that, in the main, it is the critics/haters of LCG who bring to this blog foul language, personal name calling, rumor-mongering, unsubstantiated gossip and abuse of others? Whereas those who are supporters of LCG generally avoid that type of behavior.

Critics and haters, out of your mouths your hearts speak.

Now for some truth about LCG:
LCG ENCOURAGES private Bible study.
LCG members regularly, without being frowned on, regularly discuss scripture without ministers present.
LCG WANTS its doctrines to be as transparently promulgated as possible. The Statement of Beliefs, Bible Study Course and magazines, sermons, booklets, TV programs are freely available to any who make request. (But, Yes, I concede it believes it is unwise for members to indiscriminately unload doctrines and practices onto newbies and there is Biblical support for this caution. See Hebrews about milk and meat and Christ's instructions to His disciples.)

Anonymous said...

And it is the LCG supporters who come across as self-righteous and judgmental.

Anonymous said...

exactly, priam: such behavior is the mark of scoffers, of they who are in the wrong...

Priam said...

Anonymous 9:25am,

Talking about "self-righteous and judgmental". Take the time to scroll back up a couple of posts to 5:37pm and 12:39pm.

There you will see "self-righteous and judgmental" accompanied by outright lies, the spawn of the evil one. That's par for scoffers and haters.

Anonymous said...

So let me get this right anti-LCG commenters are self righteous and judgmental but 7:06, McNair, Meredith, etc.(since they share your beliefs) aren't?

I agree that Priam and Ralph are polite and I respect the rights of each of us to have differing opinions. That's one of the things I enjoy most about this site. Simply disagreeing is not grounds for being labeled as judgmental.

My observance since coming to this site the first time about a year ago is that the LCG supporters are no better than their opponents. There are respectful and disrespectful on BOTH SIDES. There is no way you can make a safe generalization that one is more into name calling or disrespect than the other.

Also, after reading this blog for a year, it seems almost funny to me that many LCG supporters will come on and post a comment that says something like, "just like everything else on this site, this story is all lies" but then when others inquire as to what specifically are they lies, there is never a reply. That only makes the stories seem more credible so they aren't doing their cause any good.

Anonymous said...

Priam perhaps the LCG congregation you attend is as you say it is. I however, attend in Charlotte and I have personally been told and I have had numerous friends that have been told (including a woman in her 60's who has been in the church since WCG), by Rod McNair in the anointing room, that it "would be best not to discuss scripture or have Bible studies without a minster present". The logic that followed was that it would be easy for us to get confused or draw a "wrong understanding" without one of God's faithful ministers there to guide us. Also, McNair said, "would it be okay to let the teens study without a minister, or those that are new in the faith? If we let you do it then we have to let them do it because we have to have one rule for all."

Handfuls of LCG members have left the church, been suspended from church and been put out of the church for the exact things Priam says don't exist.