As usual, LCG members are being told that they are incapable of discerning what is right. Satan, that all-powerful god of the COG, is entrapping LCG members with desire and emotion. Members are told that they are incapable of discerning right from wrong because of rumors, gossip, and lies that currently abound in LCG.
In a direct attack on Sheldon Monson, Winnail says Satan is using him to sow discord in LCG. Quite frankly, LCG does not need Sheldon to spread anything in LCG. They do a really good job at sowing discord in the church all by themselves.
There is nothing wrong with members of LCG having doubts and resentment over hurts dished out by LCG ministers and leaders. Church leaders and many ministers think they are immune from any criticism. That ability of members to discern things happening to them, that they know is NOT right, is an eye-opening experience into more things wrong with the church. This is a God-given ability for people to use their minds to "fact-check" church leaders and doctrine. No COG member, regardless of which COG group they are in, should EVER have second thoughts when they dare to question church leaders, policies or doctrines. A wise and thoughtful person that follows Christ does that daily.
Is Satan After You? The Bible contains numerous warnings about Satan and how he operates to deceive, divide, and destroy—people, families, churches, and nations. He moves like a hunting lion, carefully stalking his unsuspecting prey (1 Peter 5:8). He is a dangerous adversary who is constantly searching for vulnerable individuals (1 Timothy 5:14–15; 2 Timothy 3:6–7). Satan does not hunt human beings using claws and bullets, but instead he appeals to our desires, emotions, and human vanity. He plants doubts and spreads gossip, rumors, and lies that hurt and confuse and discredit others (1 Timothy 5:13; John 8:44; Leviticus 19:16). Satan fosters dissention and division by stirring up fears, jealousies, and misguided ambitions (1 Corinthians 1:10–13), and he will use anyone—members, ministers, and self-proclaimed leaders—to sow discord and do his work (2 Corinthians 11:1–15). Satan will zero in on people who have doubts, hurts, and resentments or who feel wronged or overlooked because their ideas, opinions, or ambitions have not been acknowledged or accepted. He can use such individuals to criticize, undermine, or lash out at others. To avoid becoming an unsuspecting victim of negative or subversive thoughts and attitudes that Satan beams at his potential victims (Ephesians 2:2), we need to be alert, humble, and patient—and stay close to God (1 Peter 5:6–9).
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail
89 comments:
Remember the old saying "Children are to be seen and not heard".
In many COGS there is a similar corollary... "Laity are to be seen and NOT heard"!
Deuteronomy 24:4
"Then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance."
Perhaps the one that has problems discerning between right and wrong is Winnail himself? After all, he divorced his wife, she remarried, then dumped husband #2 and he took her back....perhaps he's the one bringing sin into the church??
Perhaps the one that has problems discerning between right and wrong is Winnail himself? After all, he divorced his wife, she remarried, then dumped husband #2 and he took her back....perhaps he's the one bringing sin into the church??
Did you notice, many years ago, that after Winnail's divorce he wrote some horrible anti-woman articles for LCG publications? You could feel the bitterness dripping through his words and appreciate how much he was hurt by his wife running off with a man she thought would let her flourish better as an individual. None of this bothered Rod Meredith, who continued his pattern of selecting unmarried, effeminate, or woman-hating men to work under him when he chose Winnail to replace Charles Bryce as head of CAD.
Winnail's tone changed, though, when his ex-wife came back into his life, now as a Baptist (she doesn't attend any ACOG), as she began to give him the love and acceptance he couldn't give to her. The fact that she managed to win him back says volumes about the difference between the "Christian love" of a Baptist laywoman and the "keeping God's Law" of an ACOG minister.
Winnail committed an abomination before the Lord, and he thinks he can teach people about God? Hilarious!!!
Disobeying a direct command from God in Deut. 24:4 is much worse than refusing to wear a mask. Winnail in, Monson out. Weston's a fool!
Love the doom and gloom of Satan roaring, lurking, using and generally having his way with you, followed by "Have a profitable Sabbath"
That's like the Song Leader leading:
"Death shall them seize...and to the tomb, ALIVE they shall go down!...." followed by "SMILE BRETHREN!"
Disobeying a direct command from God in Deut. 24:4 is much worse than refusing to wear a mask.
Sheldon Monson disagrees with you. He was happy to serve for many years under an unclean and abominable CAD Director, but as soon as the paycheck disappeared he felt he had to leave LCG.
It's a bully ploy to wrong a person, then try to suppress the negative consequences with threats or deceit. An extreme example is the mafia murdering witnesses. My first minister who lorded it over members through verbal violence, claimed from the pulpit that Satan was putting negative thoughts into members (ie, his victims) minds if they experienced negative feelings towards him. It's like David trying to suppress the natural consequences of getting Bathsheba pregnant.
While The Satan is a legitimate concern for every Christian, I wonder if blaming his influence is often times gratuitous - especially in the case of internecine denominational conflicts. I remember the late comedian Flip Wilson and his "the devil made me do it" routine. Some religionists have a penchant for recruiting and weaponizing the concept of Satan for use as a convenient battering ram against their political opponents. In Salem it got a bunch of people killed. My guess is that this statement is a precursor to a flurry of denominational disfellowshippings.
To answer the question in your headline: I think it's because COGs in general don't seem to believe I John 4:4.
"Greater is He that is in you than he that it in the world" is a big faith verse for a lot of evangelicals. Yet some COGs come across as being more fearful than faithful.
Hello Charlotte, as we know you're watching, please explain why Winnail is in charge of your ministry. Explain how this is okay. Explain why he has not been suspended or disfellowshipped for this abomination. I'm pretty sure that if a member did this, they would be instantly removed from the church. Charlotte, please explain yourself. The church awaits your answer.
Just maybe, satan is alive and well living in the living cg. How else, could you explain it?
Feastgoer, I John 4:4 was the perfect verse to quote. Unfortunately, the Armstrong Churches of God often act like Satan hasn't already been defeated by their Savior!
… blaming Satan again … According to ACOG's flawed teachings, Satan is the scapegoat of Yom Kippur.
The scapegoat is a sin offering (Lev 16:5) which is to make an atonement (Lev 16:10). The high priest confesses over it all the sins of the children of Israel (Lev 16:21). The scapegoat is the sin-bearer that takes away the sins (Lev 16:22).
The goat that is killed is also a sin offering (Lev 16:5) which makes atonement for the Holy Place because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel (Lev 16:16, 18-19). Only when the high priest is done atoning for the Holy Place, tabernacle and altar; shall the live goat be brought for him to lay his hands on its head (Lev 16:20-21).
The corporate COGs are dying a slow death! I simply can't imagine why so many brethren continue to support the imbeciles who run these groups. Ever since WCG gained IRS non-profit status in the 1950s the corporate groups have acted just like pagan Rome and their huge hierarchies! My wife and I left the COG 50 ft. idol behind more than 20 years ago. When will the brethren ever wake up and see things the way they really are in the church? Idolatry!
Bit racist the picture you've put up. Jesus as lily white and Satan as Middle eastern looking.
Satan? How well of a job did Satan do in the Monson case with him operating a risky business?
X number of kids at camp, no Covid 19 infections. X number of maskless church members singing and fellowshipping for how many months, no Covid 19 infections.
Two days and how many hours did LCG leadership debate over the conduct of this Satan led individual and they came to the conclusion that he is a fine man that we agree to disagree with.
Now Monson declares his intentions of doing exactly what they have been doing (gospel wise), except far more aggressively and Satan has led him into being far too ambitious with too many ideas and opinions.
The leadership of LCG by continuing on with this nonsense only heightens and enlarges Monson all the more.
The LCG promotes itself as the only true church and bearer of the gospel message which will be a giant work. Give till it hurts and cast your bread upon the waters is the plea of responsibility unto the membership - the compelling of them to go the mile with them in troubling and dangerous times for the gospel's sake. Then you have a Monson who takes Matt. 5:41 to heart and goes two miles and then stops and wonders where they all are at. He grabs his binoculars to see they are a mile and a half back off the side of the road in the trees mumbling together; blessed blessed be me, with the money thy giveth me.
Monson hasn't come close to being a enemy of Charlotte nor has he cursed them, or hated them, or despitefully used them and persected them. Yet Charlotte has fired and terminated and accused him of division and cutoff and now Satan branded him to cast him into a darkness.
Jesus Christ said in Matt. 5:44-45 that persons are supposed to love their enemies and bless them that curse and to do good them that hate you and pray for them that persecute you so THAT YOU MAY BE THE CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.
If the LCG leadership can't or won't perform even one of those actions towards Monson, then that would make them the children of who?
"The fact that she managed to win him back says volumes about the difference between the "Christian love" of a Baptist laywoman and the "keeping God's Law" of an ACOG minister.
August 28, 2020 at 1:00 PM"
No! It says volumes about the size of the paycheck that LCG pays Winnail!
People, when judging the Winnail case you have to be careful to compare Deut 24:1-4 with 1 Cor 7, which are two laws under two separate covenants. Under Deut 24, a man cannot take his old wife back if she is still defiled or unrepentant (24:4). Likewise, a Christian man under the NC can't do that either. Under the NC, Winnail has no right to divorce his wife (as per 1 Cor 7:11) unless she commits sexual immorality (Mt 19:9). If the wife goes on to marry another man, she sins even more. (Mk 10:12) So for Winnail to take her back (and it's not a case of a woman taking a man back but vice-versa), he has to be sure that she has thoroughly repented of leaving him and remarrying. Otherwise, the whole ordeal is a sham.
Winnail can take her back but only under these conditions. To Winnail's credit, he did not remarry (unlike some impatient elders).
So the questions to ask are: Did Winnail repent of divorcing her? (in doing so, he freed her to sin even more when she remarried) Did she repent of her double sins or was she just looking for room and board? The evidence that she currently doesn't attend with him or with another COG suggests that they just got back on cheap terms without regard to the law or the gospel. Shame on them if that is the case. It doesn't bode well for the LCG office.
So let's see. Winnail gave in to his old wife's logic and sweet-talking but not to Monson's non-yes-man defence? So it's OK to divorce and remarry when you feel like it but it's an abomination to go against church authority and stir up a controversy?
LCG never, and I mean never takes responsibility for their actions or sees how they could possibly be at fault or have drawn any negative consequences to themselves. Their blindness is like none I have ever known.
If Doug or Jerry are reading this: when you do bad things to people, bad things happen to you. It's called karma. You reap what you sew. It's the law. It's not Satan.
LCG caused this division. If they had reacted to Monson's foolishness like Christians instead of attempting to annihilate him, there would have been no division. But, of course, they are always heavy-handed and then see themselves as completely blameless so it must have been Satan.
Cue the Church Lady from SNL.
This reminds me of the abusive husband who blames the wife for making him have to beat her.
Doug Winnail's wife is kinder, more loving and more filled with God's Spirit than 95% of the people I've met in ACOGs.
The marriage and divorce rules as interpreted by the COGs have always been selectively enforced or not enforced depending on who you are or who you know. I've known of divorces that were permitted when no adultry, abuse, etc. was present and both parties continued to attend and remarry others. This usually happens when one or both parties is a close relative of a favored minister, or the person is a large tithe payer or contributor. I have seen other cases where divorce was not approved and the parties told they were bound even when there was evidence of adultry, abuse, etc. These people did not carry the clout the others did and the rules were not evenly or fairly applied.
Concerned Sister
1:21pm Wow, you have a convoluted mind if you think that under the New Covenant it's ok to remarry an adulterous wife or husband. The scriptures don't say what you think they say. You talk of the potential to repent under the N.C. but apparently you forget that even under the O.C. that God forgave sins.
Psa 103:2 - Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Tools
Psa 103:3 - Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
Lev 19:20 - And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:21 - And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
Lev 19:22 - And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
1:21pm Aren't we blessed to have you to tell us what the scripture "really" means, even when it doesn't actually come out and say what you say it says.
121 worried about:
"So the questions to ask are: Did Winnail repent of divorcing her? (in doing so, he freed her to sin even more when she remarried) Did she repent of her double sins or was she just looking for room and board? The evidence that she currently doesn't attend with him or with another COG suggests that they just got back on cheap terms without regard to the law or the gospel. Shame on them if that is the case. It doesn't bode well for the LCG office.'
Do we really have to care? Do we have to get all concerned about what it says in Deuteronomy or in the NT? Does anyone have to decide who did what and whether it met the divine criteria? Is it anyone's business really?
"Do we have to to get all concerned about what it says in Deuteronomy or in the NT? Is it anyone's business really?
Talk about compartmentalization. So Dennis the "line upon line .." man, complains about getting all concerned about what the Bible says. The Dennis who has posted endless sermons on Banned to discredit belief in God and the bible writes "is it anyone's business really?" Compartmentalization amounts to being lawless.
3:35 Non Elliptical Orbit.. "The Satan is a legitimate concern for every Christian"
Only if God allows "the satan" to be on earth, deceive people, and reign over the earth. God continues to give him power, allows him more power at the end times, and unleashes him somewhere around the end of the millennium. So if you allow the most evil force in existence on your children who you supposedly love repeatedly are you really good? It's the equivalent of a father handing his children over to an abusive uncle repeatedly. The Bible paints neither "the satan" or God in a good light if good is the absolute antithesis of evil. If good allows evil and even encourages it through inaction or action it is no longer good. So, how can God be good if he allows evil on this earth and it to flourish in his presence?
The Bible paints neither "the satan" or God in a good light if good is the absolute antithesis of evil.
You are missing the underlying message of the Bible, inherited from its Canaanite predecessors.
"Good" means to please your tribe's god, YHVH. "Evil" means to please the neighboring tribes' gods, whom YHVH decries as false gods. Murdering at YHVH's request is good; pacifism ordered by Moloch or Baal is bad. Lying at YHVH's request is good; truthfulness for Moloch or Baal is bad. And so on.
I agree with the others who posted about how LCG invites Satan into their midst by giving him credit for being behind all of their wrongdoing. With that constant invitation, LCG is correct about Satan's power among their people, starting with the ministry. LCG is in a never-ending dance with devil by giving him more power than Jesus. They sin, they reject justification offered by Jesus as the cure, and look to Satan as the cause, which inspires more sin - since they were not at fault and they have no permanent atonement.
I always say you have to fact check and scripture check everything Winnail says and writes. I'll grade him to be a little bit better not misusing scripture with this attempt compared to his usual butchery. However, when he cited Ephesians 2:2 he got very close to some dangerous scripture that he and the COGs will never address forthrightly. If the COGies read a little further and had free minds, in Ephesians 2:4-10 they could learn about salvation by grace alone. Grace is more powerful than Satan but Winnail prefers to ignore grace, in deference to the power of Satan.
If the COGies were to read a little farther through Ephesians 2:14-18, they could learn that Jesus is our peace, who has reconciled us to God through the cross - so we do not need to remain overly concerned about Satan.
COGies should look for ministers who can tell them about salvation by grace, through a fully sufficient Savior who brings peace and access to God - instead of being highjacked by the COG doctrine that Satan can steal those whom God has paid for and Jesus has saved.
Above, I mentioned that I thought Winnail had done a little better using scripture with his latest message to LCG - and that brings me to the subject of his wife.
I enjoy pointing out Winnail's glaring use of cosmetic hair color, as well as his other hypocrisy that is less visual. However, I do have a problem attacking his wife, since she has disavowed COG doctrine.
In my opinion, Doug has been a bit more compassionate when dealing with peoples' struggles than most COG ministers. I also think Sherry was more compassionate than the typical wife of a COG minister. I am conflicted by the fact that Doug stood for and enforced harsh COG doctrine on divorce and remarriage, as it evolved through the years. He made his living off the abuse of innocent people.
The way I understand their story, it was Doug who hounded Sherry for reconciliation. I heard he even attend her church to win her over. Also, it is rumored that when in college, Sherry was a hottie, by AC standards. All the AC woman with some charm sought the prize of winning a husband who was minister material.
I don't see how the painted Doug would be a catch for Sherry now, knowing what she knows about him being a leader of a cult. How can she have any respect for Doug when she knows he habitually abuses the people with his abuse of scripture? How can she explain her husband to her church friends?
I guess love truly is blind; and apparently deaf and incapable of olfactory functions too. I guess I need to let everyone seek love and find peace with whomever they may choose, regardless of whether their choices make sense to me.
Isa 45:1-4, Thus says YHVH to His Mashiach, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held— … For Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
Isa 45:5-6, I am YHVH, and there is no other; There is no Elohim besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am YHVH, and there is no other;
Isa 45:7 (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.
Isa 45:9-11 (NLT), What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’ How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father, ‘Why was I born?’ or if it said to its mother, ‘Why did you make me this way?’ This is what YHVH says— the Holy One of Israel and your Creator: “Do you question what I do for my children? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?"
Isa 45:21 (NLT), Consult together, argue your case. Get together and decide what to say. Who made these things known so long ago? What idol ever told you they would happen? Was it not I, YHVH? For there is no other Elohim but me, a righteous God [El-Tsaddiq] and Savior. There is none but me.
Isa 45:23-25, I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, ‘Surely in YHVH I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In YHVH all the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.’
Robert Guffey, over at Salon.com, points out: "The respective belief systems of Christians and Satanists are branches of the same cosmology."
He's right, you know. They share the same pantheon, which contains at a minimum two gods: a good one and an evil one. The good one is a loving being who treats humans with benevolence except when he finds it desirable to destroy hordes of them in a world-wide flood, or kill off a nation's firstborn sons, or rain down destruction on cities that have aroused his jealous anger, or send his favorite tribe to murder, rape, and plunder a neighboring tribe. He may team up with the other god to torture his most faithful worshipper for the purpose of winning a bet.
The evil god, on the other hand, is a trickster who inveigles human beings into a trap so as to reveal the key to morality--the difference between good and evil.
Both gods command swarms of lesser beings--angels or demons--to carry messages, run other errands, and participate in lavish theatrical displays.
Cyrus was likely a Zoroastrian, someone who believes in dualism - a good god and an evil god. YHVH is saying that He is the only Elohim. He alone creates all things, including evil …
Click on the link above for Isa 45:7 to see the actual Hebrew word used for evil. Other translations have calamity. The Hebrew is ra. If you then click on the 7451 above it, it will take you to the list of other occurrences of ra. One of which is Gen 2:9's knowledge of good and evil.
YHVH created the temptation to do evil partially to test our loyalty, and partially to improve us. We have free will and are capable of overcoming temptations to sin.
Gen 4:7 (NLT), "You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."
But, we make mistakes ...
Eccl 7:20 (NLT), Not a single person on earth is always good and never sins.
A righteous person repents but a wicked man continues in his sins.
Prov 24:16 (YLT), For seven times doth the righteous/tsaddiq fall and rise, And the wicked stumble in evil/ra.
YHVH gives us a choice ...
Deu 30:11-14 (NLT), This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, and it is not beyond your reach. It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.
Deu 30:19-20 (NLT), Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! You can make this choice by loving YHVH your Elohim, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. This is the key to your life. And if you love and obey YHVH, you will live long in the land YHVH swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Retired Prof
You left out that God destroys hordes of people, firstborn son's etc, on the basis of cause and effect, also called justice. So you rationalize your falling away by demonizing God. Kinda cheap and dishonest, no?
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
Obviously, LCG hasn’t drawn near to God.
It is like professional wrestling from a dialogue and display of theatrics! Special effects include fire raining down, pillars of salt, the sun stopping, every living creature on a boat (must be a TARDIS), and the dead coming back to life. Vince McMahon must be involved in the dialogue and production.
Anon Aug. 30 at 3:14 PM uses a Humpty Dumpty definition of "justice" when he says, " God destroys hordes of people, firstborn son's [sic] etc, on the basis of cause and effect, also called justice." Remember that conversation between Alice and Humpty Dumpty in *Through the Looking Glass* in which Humpty Dumpty uses the word "glory" to mean “a nice knock-down argument”?
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”, Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean–neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things–that’s all."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master–that’s all."
Doug, thinking he has not been snared by Satan, wrote his solution saying: "...To avoid becoming an unsuspecting victim of negative or subversive thoughts and attitudes that Satan beams at his potential victims (Ephesians 2:2), we need to be alert, humble, and patient—and stay close to God (1 Peter 5:6–9)..."
How close is Doug to God, The God? How alert and humble is Doug, who still believes in and preaches things like a Mickey Mouse Millennium (Christ to reign on earth soon, like "yesterday"), another Jesus, another gospel...mist likely driven by another spirit inspiring Doug with such thoughts.
2 Timothy 2:26 "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
Does Doug possess a stronger will than that spirit? Has Doug's thoughts and words shown his being taken captive. Others in this forum think so b/c of other reasons.
How can Doug really help anyone, while he is held captive?
And the "dead" group he preaches to?
Matthew 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."
Munson and Fritz apparently believe Living group is "not of God."
What happened to Doug?
Time will tell...
John
The painted Doug Winnail and his LCG can blame Satan and continue in their superior dance.
However, they overlook the fact that they are cursed for relying on the law:
Galatians 3:10-11 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
While foolishly relying on the law to make themselves right with God, the painted Doug Winnail rebelliously refuses to preach the Holy Scriptures that tell the LCG minions how they can be justified, as in declared righteous:
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 3:24
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Romans 5:16
Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:33
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Obviously, a church that rejects the Savior and justification offered because of his righteousness should not expect good things to happen to them.
Just listened to Gerald Westons latest podcast, he is now telling the brethren to get a life, because obviously he is getting blowback from marking and dissfellowshipping Sheldon Monson; I think it would be a good topic here on banned; he's definitely getting pissed about the Monson situation.
Paul twisted Scriptures!
Rom 10:6-8, But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Deu 30:10-14, if you obey the voice of YHVH your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law/Torah, and if you turn to YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
Jesus contradicts Paul!
Mt 19:16-17, Now behold, one came and said to him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So he said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Jesus did not want to be called good because he believed only God is good. Jesus denied being God. In verses 18 to 19, Jesus enumerated some of the commandments to which the young man replied he had kept from youth (validating Deu 30:14). No mention of faith in him nor blood atonement. What Jesus said was "keep the commandments."
Lk 10:25, And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus asked him what is in the Law/Torah. The lawyer replied by quoting Deu 6:4 and Lev 19:18b.
Lk 10:28, And he said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
It's interesting that the good Samaritan was not even a follower of Jesus. Nothing was mentioned of him having faith in or of Jesus. Grace or justification was absent from the story. For Jesus, the Samaritan's action merits eternal life.
Paul lied!
Rom 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Jer 17:10, I, YHVH, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.
More lies by Paul
Rom 5:12, Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Rom 5:19, For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Luke 1:6, And they [Zacharias and Elizabeth] were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Who is lying? Paul or Luke?
Righteous people in Tanakh who obeyed God - Abraham (Gen 26:5), Caleb (Num 14:24), Asa (1 Kings 15:11), Josiah (2 Kings 22:2), Hezekiah (2 Chro 29:2), etc.
Adam was not created immortal (Gen 3:22). We are not responsible for his actions. The innocent is not liable for the actions of the guilty. Read Ezekiel 18.
Deu 24:16, Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
Jer 31:29-30, In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
In the messianic age, the people would no longer believe that someone else would die for their sins!
Anon, August 31, 2020 at 5:35 PM, wrote:
"...The painted Doug Winnail and his LCG can blame Satan and continue in their superior dance.
However, they overlook the fact that they are cursed for relying on the law:..."
Doug is still too blind to even understand how God's law is contrary, against, him and his Mickey Mouse thinking:
Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
Where does that leave Doug and the "living" group that split off from GoBaal, after fleeing from the former WCG?
Matthew 15:13-14 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
When will Doug ever begin to think like Sherry, who does comprehend some truths, and come to see any light through the darkness?
Time will tell...
John
You can’t believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God but also that “Paul lied” and / or the books of Romans and Galatians should be burned. That’s what I love about Armstrongites. They pick and chose. They read the same scriptures over and over again but completely ignore about 50% of the Word.
I get it. It’s so much easier to obey the letter than the spirit. Going through the physical motions is WAY easier than cleaning out that hateful, judgemental heart.
I feel sorry for Doug.
He knows LCG is wicked but he sees himself as you old yo make a move. He’s have to give up money and rank.
Unfortunately, he lacks a spine.
He knows he will have to ultimately account for it.
John I love your scriptures. Thank you for putting them together for your post.
I’d like to add to that. I once printed all the OT laws and then highlighted those which ACOGs obey. It was scarcely over half. And there obedience seemed to have no rhyme or reason. The laws are written in subgroups and there would like be 3 they kept and 6 they didn’t within the same group. Some entire subgroups were kept and others completely ignored. It was so random. Armstrong might as well placed all 613 laws on a wall and thrown darts at them to decide what his church was going to adhere to and then burned the rest.
I have many Armstrong friends. None of them have ever been able to offer any explanation for this. They only look at the parts of the Bible that suit themselves. It’s so hypocritical but they honestly don’t see it.
What drew me to Armstrongism in the 1st place was that line about keeping the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. After a little over a decade of highlighting the SAME scriptures during every boring, uninspired sermon I started to get a clue and read the Book on my own a couple of times. My eyes were opened praise the Lord.
Anon Sep 1 @1:24pm,
I believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Tanakh is Scriptures from which other books, such as New Testament and Oral Law, are compared if they conform to its teachings.
The OT is based on Tanakh. It is roughly 76% of the christian bible. The remaining 24% is NT, and we still find numerous quotes of the OT. My bible has 962 pages of OT and 292 pages of NT.
The NT cannot stand on its own. The foundation of NT is Tanakh. If Tanakh were false, it would automatically make the NT false! The NT cannot automatically be true because Tanakh is true. OT and NT cannot both be true. Their teachings are incompatible and contradict each other.
YHVH condemns human sacrifice - Lev 18:21; Lev 20:1-5; Deu 12:31; Jer 32:34-35. Why would YHVH accept Jesus' death a sacrifice when YHVH condemns human sacrifice?
There is no sacrifice for presumptuous/rebellious/intentional sins (Num 15:22-30). Why would YHVH now require, aside from repentance, a human sacrifice in order to forgive intentional sins such as adultery or murder?
The Passover sacrifice was NOT an atoning sacrifice. No sin was expunged. The original sacrifice protected only the firstborn, not the entire household.
Yom Kippur sacrifice uses 3 animals as sin offering. Even the azazel goat is an atoning sacrifice. It is the sin-bearer and makes the atonement by taking away the sins (Lev 16:10, 21-22). The goat for YHVH is killed (Lev 16:9, 15-16). It is the atonement for the Sanctuary/Holy Place!
Yom Kippur sacrifice is a targeted, contrite repentance only for those who had specifically defiled the Sanctuary while they were in a state of contamination. This sacrifice does not have any purpose today because there's no Temple standing. Repentance and fasting atoned for all other sins (Lev 16:30-31).
Hey Anonymous of September 1, 2020 at 1:26 PM: I don't feel sorry for the painted Doug but I do agree he gives hints that he's aware that something is not right with LCG.
I can't feel sorry for him for collecting a paycheck from a church that abuses people. I think the painted Doug would be morally opposed to dealing drugs, even though he needs the money, because drugs destroy lives. Yet he can do more than destroy lives with his spiritual mal practice.
Anon, September 1, 2020 at 6:40 PM, replied to Anon Sep 1 @1:24pm, asking:
"...Why would YHVH accept Jesus' death a sacrifice when YHVH condemns human sacrifice?..."
******
Human sacrifice?
Sacrifice means killing, being slain.
Jesus Christ was murdered or, as said elsewhere, slain:
Revelation 13:8
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Christ, as part of God's perfect Plan of salvation, was sacrificed, killed, slain, for us:
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Us means all homan beings. There is no sacrifice for Satan and his angels, but time will tell...
Also, you wrote: "...The Passover sacrifice was NOT an atoning sacrifice. No sin was expunged. The original sacrifice protected only the firstborn, not the entire household..."
That orig sacrifice protected ALL Israelites, who were at the time considered as God's firstborn:
Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Later, God separated out Levites to represent firstfruits, picturing future spiritual Israrlites of 144000 firstfruits only. "The rest" of the tribes pictured pictured the rest of the world wandering around without God in their lives.
And time will tell...
John
John
Maybe Winnail does know all is not right in his church. Maybe he is doing as other ministers have done, which is waiting for God to correct his church or waiting for his turn to take control and fix the problems. This is a risky game ministers play. They risk raising suspicions and being dealt with cruelly or found out and destroyed. That is a reality of their church culture - you can't feel sorry for ministers because they support the same structure that will turn and attack them, as others strive for control of thought and funds.
John said, That orig sacrifice protected ALL Israelites, who were at the time considered as God's firstborn:
If an Israelite's house did not have the passover lamb's blood, would the entire household die on that night?
John said, Human sacrifice? Sacrifice means killing, being slain. Jesus Christ was murdered or, as said elsewhere, slain:
I agree. It was not a sacrifice. It was not korban.
Pardon me for repeating these:
The NT cannot stand on its own. The foundation of NT is Tanakh. If Tanakh were false, it would automatically make the NT false! The NT cannot automatically be true because Tanakh is true. OT and NT cannot both be true. Their teachings are incompatible and contradict each other.
Jer 23:5-6a, “Behold, the days are coming,” says YHVH, “That I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a king shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely;
In his days, Jesus did NOT bring peace in Israel. The end-time Mashiach will bring peace during his lifetime. (Isa 11:1,6-9; Hos 2:18; Isa 2:4)
Please read the entire chapter of Ezekile 18.
Two verses before the new covenant passage - Jer 31:29-30, "In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge."
In those days, speaking of the messianic age, the people will no longer believe that someone else would die for their sins.
I agree with how you normally end your comment … And time will tell …
Anon, September 2, 2020 at 8:43 AM asked:
******
"...If an Israelite's house did not have the passover lamb's blood, would the entire household die on that night?..."
Yes, but who, after experiencing 9 miracles, would be so foolish?
We read of not one family, and they, as instructed by Moses, remained in their homes all night until the light of day that next morning.
Also, in His days, in those days, is a reference to a time period after the Mickey Mouse Millennium, after Satan is loosed from the pit, at/after the 2nd resurrection: as pictured by the Eighth Day, aka Great Last Day, God's 7th annual Festival.
Time will tell...
John
Are there any Armstrong peeps on here that can explain why the ACOGs keep roughly 300 of the 613 laws? I’m legitimately curious (as opposed to being oppositional). If they left out entire sections I could possibly understand (maybe?) but when you keep some of the laws in a passage and don’t keep others in the same passage it causes me to be confused. Thanks!
John (Sep 2 @10:07am),
The question was asked because of your previous statement - That orig sacrifice protected ALL Israelites, who were at the time considered as God's firstborn:
I do not agree with your reply that the entire household would die. Only the physical firstborn would die if there's no blood. It doesn't make sense for YHVH to apply firstborn figuratively to Israelites, and then literally to the Egyptians.
Here's the verse again, Jer 23:5-6a, “Behold, the days are coming,” says YHVH, “That I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a king shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely;
Isa 11:1, There shall come forth a rod from the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
Did this happen in the past? NO. Why? Because there's still no lasting peace in the land of Israel. Isaiah 11 is not yet fulfilled.
The end-time Mashiach in Tanakh is flesh and blood. During his lifetime, there will be lasting peace in Israel and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHVH as the water covers the sea (Isa 11:6-9). This is part of the New Covenant described in Jer 31:33-34 - "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law/Torah in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. And no more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know YHVH,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says YHVH."
Nowhere in Tanakh is satan mentioned as a rebellious, fallen angel who is out to overthrow God. On the contrary, he is always presented as one who is in submission to the will of God. Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places - 1 Chronicles 21:1, Zechariah 3:1-2, Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. He is portrayed either as an agent of God, man's accuser or prosecutor. He is designed and created as such. Like all the other angels, he doesn't have free will. Angels are messengers (from Hebrew malach) of God who carry out His divine will. Aside from being a name, the word satan can be a noun or adjective that is translated adversary when referring to a man or an angel opposing someone (Numbers 22:22, 1 Kings 5:4, 11:14, 23, 25).
Understanding the true nature and purpose of Satan helps us reconcile seemingly contradicting verses such as 2 Samuel 24:1-2 and 1 Chronicles 21:1-2. It is God, through Satan, who moved David to number Israel.
Some allude to Satan as Isaiah 14's Lucifer and Ezekiel 28's King of Tyre. They read something into the passages that isn't there.
"The end-time Mashiach in Tanakh is flesh and blood."
That's pure assumption!
"They read something into the passages that isn't there.
September 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM"
Just like you've done in your entire post. Of course you won't admit it.
Anon Sep 5 @6:43am,
Why don't you present counter arguments using Tanakh. I've quoted numerous Tanakh verses. All you've done is your one liner after the thread has gone cold …
Only a few English bibles translate the Hebrew helel as Lucifer (from the Latin lux for light, and fero for bringing). With the exception of NKJV, modern bibles translate it as 'morning star', 'day star', 'shining star', or 'shining one'. This word is found in Isaiah 14:12, which is part of the proverb against the king of Babylon, to whom it is referring (Isaiah 14:3-23). Several verses in this parable clearly identify the king of Babylon as a mortal man (Isaiah 14:16b, 19a, 20a). Isaiah is taunting or mocking (some translations use these words instead of parable) the king of Babylon by using the story of Athtar the awesome's climb of Mt Zaphon (click here) as told in the Ugarit (Ras Shamra) myth. Notice the similarities with Isaiah 14:12-15. Athtar is identified with Venus, one of the wandering planets that can be a morning star. The Hebrew word for north in Isaiah 14:13 is zaphon. In both texts, there was an attempt, that failed, to usurp a throne. The end of both is similar, one in the underworld, the other in Sheol or pit.
Athtar the awesome climbed Mt Zaphon,
He ascended the throne of Ba'al the almighty.
His feet did not even reach the footstool,
His head did not even touch the headrest.
So Athtar the awesome resigned: "I cannot serve as king,
I cannot dwell on the heights of Mt Zaphon."
So Athtar the awesome descended,
He stepped down from the throne of Ba'al the almighty.
Athtar became a ruler in the underworld,
He became the overseer of the river of the dead.
The king of Babylon is Nebuchadnezzar who invaded Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple and exiled the inhabitants (2 Kings 25:1; 1 Chronicles 6:15; 2 Chronicles 36:7, 10). The Holy of Holies was the representation of God's throne room in heaven (Isaiah 6:1). Nebuchadnezzar is liken to the morning star which shines brightly for a short time until it is eclipsed by the sun.
Satan is never identified as Lucifer or Morning Star in the OT. Why don't you look in the NT and find who is identified as Lucifer or Morning Star. Like Venus, his brightness is temporary.
Anon Sep 5 @6:43am,
I'm waiting for your counter arguments …
The king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is erroneously identified by some as Satan. Although a spirit being can appear in human form, would one turn into ashes when destroyed (v18)? Is Satan, or any angel, conducting commerce even in far-flung areas (vv 5, 16, 18; cf Ezekiel 26:12)? There is no statement in this chapter linking Satan to the ruler of Tyre. Satan is not even mentioned in the entire book of Ezekiel!
The 'prince' in verse 2 comes from the Hebrew word 'nagid' which is also translated 'leader' or 'ruler' (see NIV, NASB, HCSB and YLT). Do we have an example of an individual who is referred both as king and 'prince'? Solomon is identified as king and 'prince' in 1 Chronicles 29:22 (see NRSV, ESV, ASV, ERV, JPS 1917, Darby, Douay-Rheims and World English). The 'prince' is from the same Hebrew 'nagid' in Ezekiel 28:2. It's interesting to note that some major versions used 'prince' in Ezekiel 28:2 but 'leader' (NKJV, NLT) or 'governor' (KJV) in 1 Chronicles 29:22.
Ezekiel 26 is a proclamation or prophecy against Tyre. Ezekiel 27 is a lamentation over Tyre. Are these chapters speaking of a physical and a spiritual Tyre? Compare the wordings of Ezekiel 26:2-3 with Ezekiel 28:2 and 6. Do you notice similar patterns? Now, compare Ezekiel 27:2 with Ezekiel 28:12. Both are lamentations. The word lamentation is translated from the Hebrew 'qinah' which means an elegy or dirge. It is a mournful song or poem which contains powerful imagery using, among other things, similes and metaphors.
In Ezekiel 28, the proclamation part against the ruler of Tyre (vv1-10) clearly describes a mortal man. We are interested in the lamentation part (vv11-19) where some are misled by the poem's wordings, imageries and metaphors into associating Satan.
The use of the word perfection or perfect in Ezekiel 28 does not refer to an attribute reserved for a spirit being. The word translated 'perfection' (as in 'seal of perfection' in verse 12) in most versions comes from the Hebrew 'toknit' meaning measurement or proportion. It is translated 'sum' in KJV, ASV, WBT and WEB. The JPS 1917 has it as 'accurate'. The YLT has it as 'measurement'. This exact word 'toknit' is found only in one other verse (Ezekiel 43:10) where most versions translated it as 'pattern' or 'plan'. The JPS 1917 and YLT, being consistent, translated it 'accurate' and 'measurement', respectively. The phrase 'perfect in beauty' (v12) is also found in the previous chapter (Ezekiel 27:3) which cannot be referring to a spiritual realm. In this case, the word perfect was translated from the Hebrew 'kalil' meaning entire or whole (see Deuteronomy 33:10, Psalm 51:19). In verse 15, the word translated perfect or blameless comes from the Hebrew 'tamim' meaning complete or sound. People described as 'tamim' include Noah (Genesis 6:9), Abraham (Genesis 17:1), Job (Job 12:4) and David (2 Samuel 22:24, 26; Psalm 18:23, 25). Also, animals for sacrifice are required to be 'tamim' (Leviticus 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6, etc).
The phrase 'full of wisdom' can be applied to a man as in Joshua's case (Deuteronomy 34:9). The book of Ezekiel mentions Eden 6 times, the same count as in Genesis. Pharaoh was likened in his greatness to Assyria, called a cedar in Lebanon which was in the garden of God and considered the greatest tree in Eden (Ezekiel 31:2, 3, 8, 9, 16, 18). Surely, Assyria was not a literal tree nor was in the nonextant garden of God. Eden is also used as part of the metaphor for Tyre since they were trading partners (Ezekiel 27:23, cf 28:13). Sheba and Raamah were trading precious stones and gold with Tyre (Ezekiel 27:22, cf 28:13). All men are created by God (Psalm 89:47, cf Ezekiel 28:13,15).
continuation ...
Hiram, King of Tyre, was a loving friend to David and Solomon (1 Kings 5:1). He not only supplied materials but also provided men, including Hiram the master craftsman, to help in building the Temple (1 Kings 5:8,18; 2 Chronicles 2:12-14). Incidentally, the nine precious stones mentioned in Ezekiel 28:13 are the same as the nine of the twelve that are on the high priest's breastplate (Exodus 28:17-20). The only missing ones are on the 3rd row. The word anointed in Ezekiel 28:14 comes from a unique Hebrew word 'mimshach' whose meaning is uncertain. According to Strong's Concordance (H4473), 'perhaps expanded or far-reaching wings'. Does it remind you of the cherubim on top of the 'mercy seat' (Exodus 25:17-20)? The metaphors used in Ezekiel 28's lamentation use objects related to the Temple which the king of Tyre helped build. For more information regarding cherub or sphinx in the ancient near east, go here and here.
I said on Sep 2 @12:53pm, The end-time Mashiach in Tanakh is flesh and blood.
Anon Sep 5 @6:41am said, That's pure assumption!
The Prince/Mashiach offering sin sacrifice for himself.
Eze 45:22, And on that day the prince (Heb nasi) shall prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.
Lev 4 describes what the sin offering is for. It is for unintentional sin ...
Lev 4:2, Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of YHVH in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,'"
The Prince/Mashiach will have a family and children.
Eze 46:16-18, Thus says Adonai YHVH: “If the prince (Heb nasi) gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance ..."
Anon, September 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM, wrote:
"...The question was asked because of your previous statement - That orig sacrifice protected ALL Israelites, who were at the time considered as God's firstborn:
I do not agree with your reply that the entire household would die. Only the physical firstborn would die if there's no blood. It doesn't make sense for YHVH to apply firstborn figuratively to Israelites, and then literally to the Egyptians..."
******
To disagree is fine.
Exodus 4:22 stated: "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:"
The verse did not say that only a portion, a very small portion (eldest child exiting the womb only), was His firstborn; Israel included the entire nation.
Exodus 13:2 says: "Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, [both] of man and of beast: it [is] mine."
The miracle nation of Israel was composed of "whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel." God saved ALL Israel; all came through the Red Sea. God did not lose one.
I agree that "...Isaiah 11 is not yet fulfilled," and it won't be fulfilled until after the time of the MMM (Mickey Mouse Millennium).
You mentioned that: "...The end-time Mashiach in Tanakh is flesh and blood..." I don't agree with that, but you're welcome to do so. I don't use that Tanakh.
You also wrote: "...Nowhere in Tanakh is satan mentioned as a rebellious, fallen angel who is out to overthrow God. On the contrary, he is always presented as one who is in submission to the will of God. Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places - 1 Chronicles 21:1, Zechariah 3:1-2, Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7. He is portrayed either as an agent of God, man's accuser or prosecutor. He is designed and created as such. Like all the other angels, he doesn't have free will. Angels are messengers (from Hebrew malach) of God who carry out His divine will. Aside from being a name, the word satan can be a noun or adjective that is translated adversary when referring to a man or an angel opposing someone (Numbers 22:22, 1 Kings 5:4, 11:14, 23, 25)..."
It's interesting you say Satan "doesn't have free will." Is that true of human beings also?
You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
And time will tell...
John
2:30 You assume that the prince spoken of in Ez. is the Messiah. Your assumptions are not truth!
Anon Sep 7 @9:23am,
Do you have any verses to support your position? You are the one making assumptions. You're assuming that the Prince is not the Mashiach. You're assuming that the Mashiach is a divine being. Why don't you read Ezekiel without the NT filters?
Show me Tanakh verses that support your assumptions. List Tanakh verses that says the Mashiach is divine.
Eze 34:24, And I, YHVH, will be their Elohim, and My servant David a prince among them; I, YHVH, have spoken.
Eze 37:24, “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
(As a side note, the above verse shows that YHVH's laws will still be observed in the messianic age.)
Eze 37:25b, … and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
Jer 33:17, “For thus says YHVH: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;'"
Does Eze 37:25b's use of forever (Heb olam) mean the Mashiach would not die?
Ex 21:6b, '… and he shall serve him forever.'
Does Ex 21:6b's use of forever (Heb olam) mean the servant would not die, and serve his master for all eternity?
John (Sep 7 @6:40am),
You said, It's interesting you say Satan "doesn't have free will." Is that true of human beings also?
All of us know the answer to your rhetorical question.
You said, I don't use that Tanakh.
You've been using OT verses which are translation of Tanakh.
How many passages in the NT are quotes, whether accurately or not, of OT/Tanakh? How many passages in the NT are based on stories or passages from OT/Tanakh? The OT is based on Tanakh, the Jewish Scriptures. The OT is 3 times the size of NT. As I've said before, the NT cannot stand on its own. The NT's foundation is OT/Tanakh. If Tanakh were false, the NT would automatically be false. The NT would not automatically be true just because Tanakh is true. Tanakh and NT cannot both be true because they contradict each other.
Ex 4:22-23, Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says YHVH: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’
Ex 4:24-26, And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that YHVH met him and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.
First, just to be clear, I do not know the reason for Ex 4:24-26. Question is who is the 'him'. If it was Moses, why Zipporah took her son and not Moses. It's interesting to know how Ex 4:24-26 is connected to Ex 4:22-23. Why after saying in verse 23 - 'I will kill your son, your firstborn', suddenly we are told that YHVH is going to kill 'him'? Also, why after the circumcision of her (one) son is 'he' released (v26)?
Why should I read the old testament without the new? I'm a christian, not a jew! If I'm going to throw out the NT, I'm going to throw out the OT too. Daryl Conder did, look how confused it got that fellow. Thanks but I don't need your opinions!
"Tanakh and NT cannot both be true because they contradict each other."
Do they contradict each other, or is it your understanding that is the contradiction? I'd say the latter.
John said, You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
Would you be able to provide a list of some of those verses in Tanakh? I would like to check them out. Also, why you think the verses are speaking of Satan. I'm sure you don't want to be accused of 'pure assumptions'.
Anon said on Sep 7 @12:24pm, Do they contradict each other, or is it your understanding that is the contradiction? I'd say the latter.
Contradiction #1
Heb 8:9, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:32, not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says YHVH.
Note: Jer 31:35-37 speaks of the impossible conditions YHVH would disregard Israel. See also Lev 26:44-45.
Contradiction #2
Rom 11:26, And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
Isa 59:20, “The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says YHVH.
Note: The NT is saying the deliverer will remove or turn away ungodliness. OT/Tanakh is saying the redeemer will come to Zion and to those who repent. These two diametrically opposed statements represent a critical theological difference between OT/Tanakh and NT.
Contradiction #3
Heb 10:5-6, Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Ps 40:6, Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
Heb 9:22, And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Note: Lev 17:10-12 speak of the sin of eating blood, which is used only on the altar. Blood is not the only way to atone for sins. Lev 5:11-13 states flour can be used if one cannot afford an animal sacrifice for trespass offering. Num 15:30-31 states there is no sacrifice for presumptuous/rebellious/intentional sins. Manasseh was restored after repentance (2 Chr 33:10-13). Read what he did after he was brought back to Jerusalem 2 Chr 33:15-16. He offered peace and thanksgiving offerings (not sin or trespass sacrifices). Read Ps 51:15-17; Isa 66:1-2; Hos 14:1-2.
Contradiction #4
John 9:16, Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, because he does not keep the Sabbath.” Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
Deu 13:1-5, “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. ... But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the YHVH your Elohim, ...
Note: Performing miracles is not a sign that the person is from God.
Acts 7:15-16, So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem.
Note: According to Acts 7:55, Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit. Was he full of this when he recounted Jewish history? According to him, Jacob was buried in Shechem in a tomb bought by Abraham from the sons of Hamor. Wrong!!!!!!! Jacob was buried in Hebron (Gen 23:19 Mamre is at Hebron) in a cave bought by Abraham from Ephron (Gen 50:13). It was Joseph who was buried in Shechem (Joshua 24:32) in a field purchased by Jacob from the children of Hamor (Gen 33:19).
Anon, September 7, 2020 at 1:29 PM, said...
"...John said, You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names..."
Then Anon asked: "...Would you be able to provide a list of some of those verses in Tanakh? I would like to check them out. Also, why you think the verses are speaking of Satan. I'm sure you don't want to be accused of 'pure assumptions'."
******
Here is one example.
Job 41 alone makes numerous references to Leviathan, one of hundreds of names for Satan. Read the description.
:34 "He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride."
We may read elsewhere in the NT about his control over the "children of disobedience." Pride is one of Satan's fruits that he infests/infects human beings with. Satan is a king. There is a reason that Satan and his angels will later be destroyed: they were made to be taken and destroyed. Yes, they had no choice in that.
Who else fits the following description?
:22 "Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear."
Do you know of someone else who was "made without fear?" etc.
Time will tell...
John
John (Sep 7 @6:32pm),
These are the 5 passages containing Leviathan:
Job 3:8, May those curse it who curse the day, Those who are ready to arouse Leviathan.
Job 41:1, “Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
Ps 74:14, You broke the heads of Leviathan in pieces, And gave him as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Ps 104:26, There the ships sail about; There is that Leviathan Which You have made to play there.
Isa 27:1, In that day YHVH with His severe sword, great and strong, will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; and He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
Notice how Pharaoh is described ...
Eze 29:3-5, Speak, and say, ‘Thus says the Adonai YHVH: “Behold, I am against you, O Pharaoh king of Egypt, O great monster who lies in the midst of his rivers, Who has said, ‘My River is my own; I have made it for myself.’ But I will put hooks in your jaws, and cause the fish of your rivers to stick to your scales; I will bring you up out of the midst of your rivers, and all the fish in your rivers will stick to your scales. I will leave you in the wilderness, You and all the fish of your rivers; You shall fall on the open field; You shall not be picked up or gathered. I have given you as food to the beasts of the field and to the birds of the heavens.
It's interesting how Egypt's Pharaoh is called a great monster in the river whom YHVH will put hooks and draw out of the midst of the rivers. YHVH will leave him in the wilderness to be eaten by beasts and birds which is different from Ps 74:14 (the people would be eating the Leviathan).
The above verses are allegorical whose symbolism cannot be attributed to Satan.
John,
Ps 74:14, other versions such as NLT have 'You crushed the heads of Leviathan and let the desert animals eat him'.
This is just a cursory look on Ps 74:14.
Another name for Satan:
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Genesis 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Time will tell...
John
John (Sep 8 @10:27am),
It was just a snake which was able to talk, reason and walk.
Please click on this Nationa Geographic article of fossil snake with four legs. A few of them still have visible legs/limbs which are not functional. One can 'google' this. It is a testament to the veracity of the Genesis account.
Why would YHVH punish the snake/serpent if it was Satan?
Would YHVH give an animal the ability to talk and reason? He did …
Num 22:22, Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of YHVH took His stand in the way as an adversary (Heb satan) against him.
Num 22:28-30, Then YHVH opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!” So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?” And he said, “No.”
Notice that in verse 22, it was the angel of YHVH who acted as satan/adversary. Aside from being a name, the word satan can be a noun or adjective that is translated adversary when referring to a man or an angel opposing someone (Numbers 22:22, 1 Kings 5:4, 11:14, 23, 25).
It was YHVH who gave Balaam's ass the ability to talk and reason.
Isa 45:1a, “Thus says YHVH to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held— …"
Isa 45:7 (KJV), "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things."
Anon, September 8, 2020 at 11:45 AM, quoted Isa 45:7 saying:
Isa 45:7 (KJV), "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things."
Yes,, and Satan was created...created perfectly evil.
Other names for Satan:
Jeremiah 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Time will tell...
John
I suppose I should have added one more name in my previous post, so here it is:
Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
The "Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", we were told; however, God knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
Satan is the waster is another one of them.
Time will tell...
John
John said on Sep 9 @3:31am, Yes,, and Satan was created...created perfectly evil.
Are you implying that you no longer believe Satan is a fallen angel? Do you no longer believe that he was created good and then turned evil?
John quoted Jer 10:11 on Sep 9 @3:31am
How did you connect Satan to this verse?
One method to get the context of a particular verse is to read the surrounding verses. Did you read Jer 10:1-10 and Jer 10:14-15?
Ex 20:3-5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, YHVH your Elohim, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
John quoted Isa 54:16 on Sep 9 @7:59am
Why do you think Satan is the waster? How did you connect him?
Here are the commentaries found in Biblehub. Only Gill's Exposition links the devil not only to the 'waster' but also to the 'smith'. It's interesting that he didn't use the word Satan. Also, he opened his sentence by 'Some understand this of the devil …'.
But their understanding is problematic - the devil both creates and destroys? Their understanding runs contrary to YHVH's word:
Isa 45:7, I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.
Here are the parallel verses of Isa 54:16.
Do you notice how some versions use 'destroyer'? Here's the interlinear.
The Hebrew translated waster or spoiler or destroyer is mashit, Strong's H7843.
Ex 12:23, For YHVH will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, YHVH will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer (Heb hammashit, Strong's H7843) to come into your houses to strike you.
Anon, September 9, 2020 at 10:56 AM, said:
"...John said on Sep 9 @3:31am, Yes,, and Satan was created...created perfectly evil.
Are you implying that you no longer believe Satan is a fallen angel? Do you no longer believe that he was created good and then turned evil?..."
Are those a couple of your rhetorical questions?
Anon also wrote: "...John quoted Jer 10:11 on Sep 9 @3:31am
How did you connect Satan to this verse?..."
As I mentioned earlier: You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names."
Here's another:
Psalm 10:18 To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress."
Satan is the man of the earth that oppresses.
Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, [and] the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
One day Satan, the oppressor, and his angels will cease existence.
Time will tell...
John
John (Sep 10 @6:41pm),
There are no connections to Satan. Unless you can provide one, you are just quoting verses you believe are talking about Satan.
Here are the parallel verses of PS 10:18:
NIV: so that mere earthly mortals will never again strike terror.
NLT: so mere people can no longer terrify them.
ESV: so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.
This is not talking about Satan.
Isa 14:4 (ESV), you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
We know Babylon conquered many nations.
I've alread discussed this here.
Anon, September 10, 2020 at 7:36 PM, regarding Psalm 10:10 and Isaiah 14:4, wrote:
"...There are no connections to Satan. Unless you can provide one, you are just quoting verses you believe are talking about Satan...PS 10:18...is not talking about Satan..."
You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
The context regarding the king of Babylon, that oppressor, is again spoken about in verse 12 where it says of that "son of the morning:"
:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Yes, a day comes when Satan will make a "pit-stop" for 1,000 years and subsequently experience death (This has nothing to do with King Neb):
:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
:18 All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Yes, that thing, Satan and his angels, will be cast out of its grave, resurrected (and so will King Neb) at the time of the 2nd resurrection; there is no 3rd resurrection.
But Satan and his angels have reservations for the second death. That too will happen, and then the following will be evident to all living:
Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror (Ezek 26:21; 27:36), and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.
The life and death [Matthew 25:41, 46 if you believe goat(s) can be another name God knows Satan and his angels by] of Satan and his angels is covered in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.
The king of Babylon, Neb, will be resurrected and live forever thereafter.
Time will tell...
John
John (Sep 11 @8:33am),
Here are the Isa 14:12 commentaries in Biblehub.
Isa 14: Canaanite mythology
Here are the Eze 28:19 commentaries in Biblehub
As an aside:
Isa 45:7 I form the light [’or], and create darkness [choshek]:
I make peace [shalom], and create evil [ra‘]: I the LORD do all these things. (AV).
Ge 1:5a And God called the light [’or] Day, and the darkness [choshek] he called Night.
In the antithetical parallelism darkness is the opposite of light.
Job 2:10b Shall we accept good [tob] from God, and not trouble [ra‘]? (NIV).
Job speaks of blessings and its opposite, deprivation of blessings, or ‘bad’.
Ge 37:14 And he said to him, Go, I pray thee, see whether it be well [shalom] with thy brethren, and well [shalom] with the flocks;
The Hebrew word ra‘ has different meanings depending on context, similar to shalom.
Isa 45:7b I make peace [shalom], and create evil [ra‘]: I the LORD do all these things. (AV).
“Evil” is set in contrast with “peace”.
The English word “evil” doesn’t quite capture the contrast with peace/well-being as ra‘ would in Hebrew. Hence these translations:
“I make weal and woe” (NRSV).
“I bring prosperity and create disaster” (NIV).
“maker of peace, creator of violence” (John Watts).
Evil in common English almost always refers to moral wickedness.
Therefore, contrasting “peace” with “evil” maybe misleading. The word ra’ covers anything “bad”. It can refer to moral evil, but the context can make it clear that it may refer to trouble or calamity:
2Ki 2:19 ... this town is well situated, as you can see, but the water is bad [ra‘] and the land is unproductive.” (NIV).
2Ki 4:41 But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm [ra‘] in the pot.
“Prosperity ... disaster: the older, literal rendering ‘peace ... evil;’ caused unnecessary difficulties. Can the Lord ‘create evil’? Out of about 640 occurrences of the word ra’, which range in meaning from a ‘nasty’ taste to full moral evil, there are about 275 cases where it refers to trouble or calamity. Each case must be judged by its context and NIV has does so correctly here. Cyrus was ‘bad news’ to the kings he conquered and the cities he overthrew...” (J. Alec Motyer, Isaiah, TOTC, p.323).
“The Soncino Books of the Bible” notes: “The term evil here denotes calamity and suffering. These serve as means of punishment for the sins of man. Moral evil, on the other hand, does not proceed from God, but is the result of man’s action” (I.W. Slotki, Revised by Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg).
Just as the Nebuchadnezzar brought “darkness” and “evil” on Judah, Cyrus, the Lord’s anointed [maskiakh, 45:1] shepherd [roi, 44:28) will bring “darkness” and ‘evil” on Babylon.
Am 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster [ra‘] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
The context in Amos also requires that ra’ be understood in the sense of catastrophe, not ethical wrong. The parallel concept in this verse is the warning of military attack.
Mal 1:8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong [ra‘]?
Having noted the above, the noun ra‘ mostly denotes unethical or immoral activity.
John (Sep 12 @12:42am),
Gen 2:9b, … tree of knowledge of good (Heb towb, H2896) and evil (Heb ra, H7451).
Ps 34:14, Depart from evil (Heb ra, H7451) and do good (Heb towb, H2896); Seek peace (Heb shalom, H7965) and pursue it.
Note: To do good is to seek peace. To seek peace is to depart from evil.
Jer 8:15 (NKJV), We looked for peace (Heb shalom, H7965), but no good (Heb towb, H2896) came; And for a time of health, and there was trouble! (also Jer 14:19)
Jer 8:15 (NLT), We hoped for peace, but no peace came. We hoped for a time of healing, but found only terror.’
Note: The NLT equated peace with good.
Isa 45:7 (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace (Heb shalom, H7965), and create evil (Heb ra, H7451): I YHVH do all these things.
Note: Darkness is synonymous with evil. Light is synonymous with good. The opposite of evil is good. To do good is to seek peace (Ps 34:14).
Gen 8:21 (NIV), "… every inclination of the human heart is evil (Heb ra, H7451) from childhood. …"
From aish(.)com:
This inclination is described in Genesis as,
“The inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth.” Genesis 8:21
An inclination is a pull or a drive. It acts upon the person, but it is not the person. This inclination does not make the person a sinner, nor is he in a constant state of sin. Rather, via the temptation to do evil a person is endowed with freedom of choice and the ability to choose good over evil. This is expounded in the following verses:
"I have placed before you today life and what is good, and death and what is evil.” Deuteronomy 30:15
“I have placed life and death before you, blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19.
The ability to rule over evil is not just wishful thinking. It is a directive expressed in the following verse, which mentions sin by name the very first time in the Bible,
“Sin is crouching at the door; and it desires you, but you are able to rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
If sin is an insurmountable condition that no one can overcome, wouldn’t this be the logical place for the God to say so? However, this passage teaches that although it is inevitable that we will be tempted to sin, we clearly have God’s promise of an inner ability to overcome the temptation. King David said this in his well-known words,
“Turn from evil and do good.” Psalm 37:27
Commentaries from Biblehub:
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
"… God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin;…"
Pulpit Commentary
"The nexus of the words, "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness," is such as naturally to suggest an intended antagonism to the Zoroastrian system. Under that, Ormuzd created "light" and "peace," Ahriman "darkness" and "evil." The two were eternal adversaries, engaged in an inter-ruinable contest."
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
"Moral evil proceeds from the will of man, physical evil from the will of God, who sends it as the punishment of sin. The expression “create evil” implies nothing more than that."
Anon, September 11, 2020 at 10:53 AM, said...
"...Here are the Isa 14:12 commentaries in Biblehub.
Isa 14: Canaanite mythology
Here are the Eze 28:19 commentaries in Biblehub
******
Anon, I looked at all of those opinions, which you are welcome to, but it is too much confusion for me to wade through.
Thanks for sharing, but I still contend that: You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
Time will tell...
John
Anon, September 12, 2020 at 12:42 AM, wrote:
"...As an aside:
Isa 45:7 I form the light [’or], and create darkness [choshek]:
I make peace [shalom], and create evil [ra‘]: I the LORD do all these things. (AV).
Ge 1:5a And God called the light [’or] Day, and the darkness [choshek] he called Night.
In the antithetical parallelism darkness is the opposite of light.
...Can the Lord ‘create evil’? Out of about 640 occurrences of the word ra’, which range in meaning from a ‘nasty’ taste to full moral evil, there are about 275 cases where it refers to trouble or calamity. Each case must be judged by its context and NIV has does so correctly here. Cyrus was ‘bad news’ to the kings he conquered and the cities he overthrew...” (J. Alec Motyer, Isaiah, TOTC, p.323).
“The Soncino Books of the Bible” notes: “The term evil here denotes calamity and suffering. These serve as means of punishment for the sins of man. Moral evil, on the other hand, does not proceed from God, but is the result of man’s action” (I.W. Slotki, Revised by Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg).
Just as the Nebuchadnezzar brought “darkness” and “evil” on Judah, Cyrus, the Lord’s anointed [maskiakh, 45:1] shepherd [roi, 44:28) will bring “darkness” and ‘evil” on Babylon.
Am 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster [ra‘] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
The context in Amos also requires that ra’ be understood in the sense of catastrophe, not ethical wrong. The parallel concept in this verse is the warning of military attack.
Mal 1:8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong [ra‘]?
Having noted the above, the noun ra‘ mostly denotes unethical or immoral activity..."
******
Really? What you are saying (275/640) is that about 43.125 % of the cases are "...mostly denotes unethical or immoral activity...", but the majority of cases, 56.875% represent something else: evil?
Time will tell...
John
Anon, September 12, 2020 at 7:45 AM, wrote many opinions of himself and those of others. For example:
"...If sin is an insurmountable condition that no one can overcome, wouldn’t this be the logical place for the God to say so? However, this passage teaches that although it is inevitable that we will be tempted to sin, we clearly have God’s promise of an inner ability to overcome the temptation. King David said this in his well-known words,
“Turn from evil and do good.” Psalm 37:27..."
******
Where is "...God's promise of an inner ability to overcome" anything in David's words of Psalm 37:27?
Read David's life of lots of evil, premeditated murder, etc., especially when he was NOT "a man after God's own heart!"
Self does not have any inherent ability to overcome, and the only time David had repentance was when God gave/granted it to him.
Sin was crouching, like a hungry "lion," in David's life, like it did in Cain's life, like it does in your life and yes, it is something internal with all human beings (even Christ was not an exception).
You will have sin until the day you die and will not choose to stop sinning, nor choose to never sin again, b/c you don't have what it takes to do that.
Why not? It's b/c you may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names..."
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26
"O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jeremiah 10:23
Thank God for His grace, but He will work out His perfect Plan of Salvation to save all humanity, and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels, who were "made" to serve a purpose!
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" 2 Cor 5:19
Satan was made perfectly evil; if you prefer to use some other words, then fine, but it is perfect.
God is the Doer. For example, the following will one day be reality, despite Satan's will working in our lives:
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:..."
Time will tell...
John
John Sep 12 @11:08am,
The quote I used was from Aish, a Jewish site.
You are using NT verses. As I've said before, the NT contradicts the OT/Tanakh.
John said on Sep 12 @10:31am, Really? What you are saying (275/640) is that about 43.125 % of the cases are "...mostly denotes unethical or immoral activity...", but the majority of cases, 56.875% represent something else: evil?
I'm not talking about percentage John but what Isa 45:7's use of ra. Please refer to my comment on Aug 30 @2:07pm.
YHVH called Cyrus anointed/mashiach and named him even before his birth. But it's made clear that Cyrus never knew YHVH, and most likely he was a Zoroastrian - someone who believes in dualism - a good god and an evil god.
This is the reason why YHVH said on v5 "I am YHVH, and there is no other; There is no Elohim besides Me."
It continues on until v7. YHVH creates light and darkness.
According to Britannica:
The major beliefs of Zoroastrianism can be found in its principal holy text, the Avesta. This text claims that the highest god and creator, Ahura Mazdā, is engaged in a primeval battle against Angra Mainyu, the Destructive Spirit. Believers anticipate Ahura Mazdā’s eventual victory, after which the followers of Angra Mainyu will suffer before all of humanity experiences eternal bliss.
Anon, September 12, 2020 at 12:13 PM, said:
"...The quote I used was from Aish, a Jewish site.
You are using NT verses. As I've said before, the NT contradicts the OT/Tanakh."
******
Yes, I used NT verses. Were they ones to be contradicted? Did I commit some "mortal sin?"
So, you quote Aish! Fine, for you.
You may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God still knows Satan by hundreds of different names.
Time will tell...
John
Anon, September 12, 2020 at 12:13 PM, wrote:
"...YHVH called Cyrus anointed/mashiach and named him even before his birth. But it's made clear that Cyrus never knew YHVH, and most likely he was a Zoroastrian - someone who believes in dualism - a good god and an evil god..."
Is "dualism" and "Zoroastrian" in the Tanakh? "Most likely?" Was that somebody's guess?
Cyrus knew what was given to him and it all came from:
"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah."
You also wrote: "...This is the reason why YHVH said on v5 "I am YHVH, and there is no other; There is no Elohim besides Me."
It continues on until v7. YHVH creates light and darkness..."
Yes, verse 5 says: "I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me:..."
At that point in time he, YHVH, was alone as The God, the LORD of hosts, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Highest, the Living God, the true God, etc...and there is no other exactly like Him today! Yes, there is a Son of God, today (I Cor 8:6).
You also cited: "...According to Britannica:
The major beliefs of Zoroastrianism can be found in its principal holy text, the Avesta. This text claims that the highest god and creator, Ahura Mazdā, is engaged in a primeval battle against Angra Mainyu, the Destructive Spirit. Believers anticipate Ahura Mazdā’s eventual victory, after which the followers of Angra Mainyu will suffer before all of humanity experiences eternal bliss..."
Angra Mainyu? Does God know Satan by that name? I don't know, but you may find "...Tanakh mentions only the angel Satan in 4 places...", but God knows Satan by hundreds of different names: at least 666 names (but you apparently have very little belief, if any, for the NT). Is Angra Mainyu one of them names?
Time will tell...
John
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