Sunday, December 16, 2018

PCG on Disciplining Children in Church



Joel Hilliker is back again telling Philadelphia Church of God member show to discipline their children and train them to be submissive in church.
During Sabbath services in a congregation with children, life happens on two levels. One carries on at the adults’ eye level. But there is another world happening a few feet closer to the ground. 
If you’re not paying attention, this very active world is easy to overlook—until its sounds and possibly its fury rise to the level of breaking your and others’ concentration on the sermon or interrupting your fellowship. 
Every member of God’s Church should try to bridge the gap between these two worlds. Children need regular, positive interactions with adults who show interest in them and include them within God’s spiritual Family. 
But the ultimate responsibility for children at services lies squarely on those of us who produced these children. We must avoid becoming so engrossed in our adult world at services that we lose track of what our children are doing. 
Each parent must ensure that his or her child upholds God’s Philadelphia standards at Church services. This requires diligence, consistency and firmness, as well as some creativity and understanding.
Notice these are not Godly standards but PCG's expectations.  The word "firmness" is not something to dismiss, given the track record of child-rearing teachings of the Armstrongite COG movement.

Hilliker trots our Apostle Paul as the standard to measure up to:
What would the Apostle Paul say if he walked in on one of our Sabbath services? 
He wrote that members of God’s Church should know “how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God” (1 Timothy 3:15; Revised Standard Version). 
In those congregations blessed to have children, the behavior of those young ones can make all the difference in whether the services really represent the name Philadelphia Church of God. That is, whether they uphold the Philadelphian standard; whether they befit the very elect, called-out ones; and whether they honor the Being whose name we represent.
No fussy kids in church, no crying, no passing notes to friends, no laughing at stupid comments by the preacher. Nothing, other than sitting there and being submissively quiet. The key word is submission.  If a child is not submissive in church then the child is not being trained right at home.
Paul said a leader in the Church should be “one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence” (verse 4; New King James Version). Every parent should be striving for this godly, loving discipline at home. Our children’s Sabbath behavior is an excellent indicator of how well we are living up to this biblical admonition. 
As usual, PCG kneels at the altar of Herbert Armstrong's writings as if God actually spoke them. They quote HWA and his abusive tactics of child-rearing enforced by his son Richard.
“[M]any of our brethren … may not fully realize the seriousness of strict training and vigilant enforcement of the behavior of children at Church services,” Herbert W. Armstrong wrote in the Good News magazine, May 1981. “God is holding every one of you parents responsible!” 
For his article, Mr. Armstrong reprinted a 1958 letter that his son Richard David wrote to Church members in one congregation where children were misbehaving at Sabbath services. “I do not think my son really wrote this letter, except as God’s instrument. The living Christ, I feel, actually authored it,” he explained. “But it contains a dynamic sermon on the responsibility of parents for the training and the behavior of their children at Church services.” 
What an endorsement from Mr. Armstrong, God’s end-time Elijah! This Christ-authored letter is instruction we parents must study closely.
Lest you forget, here are the words of Richard Armstrong and how he expected children to behave in church.  Its no wonder Garner Ted come up with his nonsense later on, he had two abusive teachers!
“[A]ll the children without exception have been too noisy, have been left to run free to themselves at services, and this must cease,” wrote Richard Armstrong. Reading these words makes me wonder just how bad those children were by our society’s loose standards. What would Mr. Armstrong think of the behavior of our children at services today? 
Emphasizing that the Sabbath commandment includes “thy son” and “thy daughter” (Exodus 20:10), Richard Armstrong wrote, “The Sabbath is holy time, sacred to God, and as such our children should not be allowed to run loose like so many wild animals. … Your children must be in church, and they must keep the Sabbath holy the same as you do.”
This is the overarching principle we must remember as we govern our children’s behavior on the Sabbath: This is holy time. Isaiah 58:13 commands that we all—including our children—refrain from doing our own pleasure to ensure the Sabbath is “holy of the Lord, honourable.” 
This means no running, throwing objects, noisily rolling cars around, or being overly loud. Boys are especially prone to such behavior. We must direct them toward appropriate alternatives. 
At the same time, this verse in Isaiah shows that God wants the Sabbath to be a “delight” for the whole family, including our children. Twenty-four hours of being expected to be quiet, sit still and do nothing won’t be a delight to even the most mild-mannered child. We must train our children to uphold the standard—while we provide suitable activities and opportunities that fulfill the purpose of the Sabbath and that they will enjoy. 
Be sure to give your children appropriate ways to make this weekly holy time special and enjoyable for them, whatever their ages. Spend extra time with them. Read Bible stories and books about creation together. Talk with each other about God, His way of life, His laws, His creation, His plan for all mankind. Walk down the street or through a scenic place together. Make Sabbath meals special with foods and decorations you don’t usually have during the week. Have special quiet toys, dolls, books or activities that children get to enjoy only on the Sabbath. Make the ride to and from services enjoyable by discussing God’s creation. Present them with a nice backpack, handbag or briefcase for their supplies for services. 
Be sure they understand what is appropriate at the meeting hall and what isn’t. “Of course your children can play with the other children when services are over,” said the August 1965 Good News. “They should look forward to and enjoy the Sabbath when they see all their friends again. But this is not license to sail airplanes out of restroom windows, wrestle on the floor, or bang chairs around ….”
Can you imagine Jesus ever doing this when he gathered the little children around him as he had them set on his lap?  PCG has to have higher standards.  Members are to not be distracted by a gurgling baby or a happy child during those SERIOUS church services. Nothing can be more important that the words being spoken by the preacher! It is more important for members to listen to words that drive them to suicide than it is to be bothered by a happy child in services.
Teaching your children how to behave during the Sabbath service itself requires special effort and attention. And your expectations must fit your children’s ages and maturity levels.

When you have very young children, your first goal is to ensure that you and others around you can receive the instruction during services with as few interruptions as possible.
To that end, very young children must be blanket trained at home. Select a time and set the blanket on the floor. Tell the child that everything beyond the blanket is “no.” Train your child to play silently on the blanket without getting off. Discipline quickly when the child tests these boundaries. Establish a routine so the child can fall asleep by himself on the blanket even while someone is speaking. These habits simply cannot be taught at services.

They must be trained and enforced in your own home during the week.
After all, it is not about what would Jesus do, but what their law requires:
Rewards for Law-keeping
As is the case with behavior during services, the time to train our children how they should behave before and after services is during the week. Anticipate. Prepare. Establish firm rules. Tell them in advance the rewards for right and the punishments for wrong. Practice in whatever ways are possible. Do your work during those six days, and you will be able to rest on the Sabbath as your children behave appropriately.
While you are establishing these good habits, you might consider establishing a happy tradition—perhaps enjoying ice cream as a family after services—for when the children behaved themselves well in the household of God, the Church of the living God.
Let’s diligently work with our children to keep God’s Sabbath holy and honorable—and at the same time make it a delight. This will do much to bring us peace, build God’s Family, and strengthen the Church in the eyes of the world and of God. It will help life in our congregations meet God’s standard—both at eye level and at the level closer to the ground. And it will prepare our young people for a lifetime of joy-filled Sabbath-keeping!  
Of all the Churches of God out there the Philadelphia Church of God is the LAST group of people you should look to for child-rearing advice.

44 comments:

"1-EX- sheeple" said...

As if a young child could ever understand keeping the sabbath day 'holy". all Richard & especially GTA's child rearing doctrines accomplished was to make child ABUSERS out of what
would've been normal loving parents. In particular were the 'paddles" used to discipline the
youngsters. just the exact opposite of the way Christ dealt with the little ones. An abominable, despicable teaching for sure.

Anonymous said...

I remember before Sabbath service in the Florence, Alabama congregation of WCG I saw a kid of about 3 getting his Ass spanked in the most horrendous way that today I still see & hear in my memory that poor child screaming. It still breaks my heart.

DennisCDiehl said...

Once again, it is the Bible itself that proves itself not to be a very good authority on "raise up a child in the way it should (Great word) go and when he is old, he shall not depart from it" Prov 22:6 If it goes by it's own rules, "by their fruits you shall know them" it fails terribly. It does not say they won't depart from you and it inaccurately believes they won't depart from the way he "should" go, or "it".

I guess if stoning is part of the plan for encouraging "it" that might account for compliance and positive Bible outcome

FFS said...

In my experience in the wcg, services were no place for children under the age of 18. My children were scared silly by the graphic descriptions of the “coming tribulation”, sermons on sex, etc Oh yes, they remember them well, sitting on their little blanket playing quietly with their toys. When hwa was there during visits or at the feast, he would yell out of nowhere with that booming voice of his, waking all the sleeping children. Then came a chorus of cries of awakened terror from innocent little ones. Services of any of the cogs are no place for children of any age. Get a babysitter if you must go.

Anonymous said...

I raised four kids in the church and they were disciplined with love. I tried to be thoughtful of others during services and remove the child if they were kicking up a ruckus. I may have over disciplined at times but the results was worth it. My oldest is highly educated and has served in the military, thanked me for loving her enough to spank her when she needed it. Over disciplining is as bad as not correcting them at all. there is a balance in all things.

TLA said...

Dennis - don't you think you are being unfair to the Bible?
Maybe the problem was more with the WCG doctrines and misinterpretations?
Where in the Bible does it say you should have long boring church services that the young and old find hard to endure?
Christians are meant to worship and praise God - almost none of that takes place in a COG service. No excitement, no joy,
The Bible says children are a blessing - beating your blessings sounds like total idiocy.
Most of these abused kids rejected their parents church and many have rejected God entirely and become atheists.
So yes, WCG fruits have become terribly evident.
I think most COGs have got away from abusive discipline, but it seems like PCG is still holding fast to what did not work.

Byker Bob said...

The people who perpetuate these atrocities actually believe that they’re mirroring the way God mentors His children. In their cruelties, the ministers believe they are imitating God. To believe this, they’ve got to turn a blind eye to the negative effects, consequences, and permanent damage they inflict. The only factor that remains important is their own authority. In their minds, if they even pause to contemplate the obvious results, the casualties are simply the cost of exercising that authority.

BB



BB

6 said...
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Unknown said...

Conditioning people to be overly harsh to their children, conditions those very same people to endure harshness from their ministerial overlords.

This is the far sinister motive in the hierarchy. No accountability, no recourse, just submission. Like Islam!

Anonymous said...

At a recent Feast i listened in astonishment to a longtime AC pastor admit he had not used the rod in bringing up his own children but used encouragment instead.
He admitted encouragment worked better than punishment.
I could not believe my ears. He even used the example of a trip to Disneyland as a reward.
I could not believe what i was hearing. How many more AC ministry brought up their children this way whilst the rank and file brethren were only encouraged to punish their offspring into an inch of their lives ?
The hypocrisy of it all.

Dennis said...

TLA
No, the Bible is the main problem and not misinterpretation. And it says sermons can be too long and bringing Acts 20:9😛

Anonymous said...

There is no doubt that this is a hate websight. You spew hate, you promote hate, you denigrate people on the basis of their religious affiliation. All the while pretending to be victims you actually victimize others. Your hypocrisy knows no boundaries. You are like those Pharisees who use to follow Jesus and His disciples to spy on them and find every possible kind of fault, accusing them of everything they could think of falsely.

Anonymous said...

"The people who perpetuate these atrocities actually believe that they’re mirroring the way God mentors His children"

Not to mention that it gives the appearance of evil.

Dennis said...

TLA
Eutychus was either almost or completely bored " to death" with Paul's over long sermon in Acts 20😵

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:43 slow day in Headquarters?

Anonymous said...

10:43 AM, Amen! Preach It!

Anonymous said...

Spanking is an atrocity? How about coaching young boys to become girls? Hey kid, go get at "doctor" to cut your member off! You'll be a lot happier as a (fake) girl!

The modern age has twisted many minds.

Anonymous said...

"There is no doubt that this is a hate websight."

A hate webSITE.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I wonder if the COGs are really controlled by the radical left. Perhaps they are too extreme on purpose, to make the right look bad so the left will advance. And they capture right-leading people and tell them not to vote. I.e. they politically castrate them.

If one pays close attention to the agenda of the left, it’s easy to come to the conclusion that their aim is the extinction of the human race. Their biggest concerns are the advancement of homosexuality, transgenderism, birth control, and abortion. They view the energy we require to make all of modernity possible as a plague on the Earth. Every time a cop does his job by removing some violent criminal from the gene pool, they stir up a riot and pretend it is peaceful protest, likewise for antifa, as will be the case for the next group of left wing terrorists that wants to bring down the State and all of our institutions.

Find literally anything that makes the world safer and more harmonious, and not far behind, you will discover a Leftist trying to destroy it.

This is of course paved over with fluffy sentiments of peace, love, and tolerance. They don’t want to exterminate America, they just want diversity and the end of “hate”. They don’t want to stop people from breeding, they just want equality for women, homosexuals, and suicidal freaks. They don’t want rampant crime on the streets, they just want to rid the world of gun violence and police brutality. They don’t hate energy, they just want to outlaw it in the hopes that solar powered airplanes will spontaneously emerge once they do.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:51 Very slow day in Headquarters.

RSK said...

"Sometimes I wonder if the COGs are really controlled by the radical left. Perhaps they are too extreme on purpose, to make the right look bad so the left will advance. And they capture right-leading people and tell them not to vote. I.e. they politically castrate them."

The COGs are neither important or visible enough to accomplish such a thing, plus they come with too much baggage.

Anonymous said...

Dennis says "the bible is the main problem and not misinterpretation."

This neo military campaign against belief in the bible is not the purpose of this blog. Morally, he should go elsewhere.

6 said...
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Anonymous said...

So many cliches, so little time.

DennisCDiehl said...

Anonymous said...
Dennis says "the bible is the main problem and not misinterpretation."

This neo military campaign against belief in the bible is not the purpose of this blog. Morally, he should go elsewhere.

I spent 30 years in WCG, 4 as a student and 26 as a pastor in 14 congregations in 5 states. Some take away from the COG experiences that they should go back to mainstream Christianity be it Catholic, Protestant or Fundamentalist. That is their lesson and their solution. Some conclude they just need to slide over to LCG from UCG or to RCG from LCG or from RCG to LMNOP and that is their lesson from their experiences.

I was always a student of the Bible. That is what got me from my Dutch Reformed Roots into the WCG which, as a naïve kid, thought had a better grip on the whole Bible. It took way too long to realize they didn't and then they added insult to injury by wanting to take me full circle back to where I came from theologically. Over all those years the science I had squelched in my youth for the Bible explanation of things kept oozing out. Geology, Paleontology and especially the obvious, to me, reality of the evolution of all humans from apes was had to be accepted by me. The 4.5 Billion year old Solar System was accepted as well as the 14.5 billion year old Universe of which we may just be on grape in a cluster was accepted. The interest in theology never went away either. Why all the contradictions, and there are many in the texts. Who really wrote the Gospels. Why is there no "Harmony of the Gospels"? Who was Paul and why did he hijack the faith of Peter, James and John? My last sermon in Myrtle Beach to 8000 was "The Politics of the NT" My Epistles of Paul teacher , who was over that site that year, beelined it to me after and wanted to go to dinner and learn more. Student became teacher.

I have every right to be here and just because my conclusion was not to jump churches but to question the text is just as valid and needed here as yours.

I don't write to convince. I write to let those already convince they are not alone.
And too....I am the only former Pastor BY NAME that writes here. That's one in hundreds.

Anonymous said...

The animals come out a couple times per year to confront the regulars, everybody reexplains themselves, the animals then go away, and then it’s a nice blog for a few months until the animals do it again.

But, it’s nice to have a free-speech blog. The animals are just the cost of freedom.

Anonymous said...

Dennis wrote:

the obvious, to me, reality of the evolution of all humans from apes

No, Dennis, no! Evolution shows that humans and apes had a common ancestor. The idea that humans evolved from apes is a fundamentalist caricature of what science has discovered. No serious scientist believes that humans evolved from apes, even though that's how fundamentalist Christians mischaracterize things to make scientists look foolish.

Anonymous said...


“PCG on Disciplining Children in Church”

The PCG should leave the children alone and discipline some of those dirty old men and filthy old women in the PCG.

DennisCDiehl said...

"No, Dennis, no! Evolution shows that humans and apes had a common ancestor. The idea that humans evolved from apes is a fundamentalist caricature of what science has discovered. No serious scientist believes that humans evolved from apes, even though that's how fundamentalist Christians mischaracterize things to make scientists look foolish."


I understand that. I wrote quickly. Humans share a common ancestor 5-7 million years ago. I mixed my concept of being a conscious hairless ape with origins. Chimps, Bonobos, Orangs and Gorillas are our cousins. Thanks for noticing. Mental typo

Anonymous said...

Over all those years the science .... as well as the 14.5 billion year old Universe of which we may just be on grape in a cluster was accepted.

Dennis is incorrigible. No matter how many times you show that the big bang is is not science (or junk science at best) he still believes it and calls it science. He will NEVER do the scientific thing and look at the evidence on both sides. And he will keep on believing that un-provable speculations about other universes are science. Then he complains that people don't listen ... to him.

He merely learns what the establishment says and believes it. Religiously.

Anonymous said...

I have every right to be here ...

So he can hijack the site, just like he tried to do to when he was in the COGs along with GTA and the other STP people.

Subversives and infiltrators feel they have the right to do what they do. And we have the right to call them on it.

Unknown said...

Anonymous said...
There is no doubt that this is a hate websight. You spew hate, you promote hate, you denigrate people on the basis of their religious affiliation. All the while pretending to be victims you actually victimize others. Your hypocrisy knows no boundaries. You are like those Pharisees who use to follow Jesus and His disciples to spy on them and find every possible kind of fault, accusing them of everything they could think of falsely.

MY RESPONSE-
Anonymous said...
There is no doubt that what you wrote is a hate comment. You spew hate, you promote hate, you denigrate people on the basis of their posts. All the while pretending to be offended you actually offend others. Your hypocrisy knows no boundaries. You are like those Pharisees who use to follow Jesus and His disciples to spy on them and find every possible kind of fault, accusing them of everything they could think of falsely.

TLA said...

Dennis - I have started studying DNA starting with my own.
I am as Bill Murray so charmingly put it in one of his older movies - a mutt - a mix of Ashkenazi Jew, English, French/German, and Northwestern European (unclassified European).
Based on British Israelism, my DNA history should all be linked to about 3,500 years ago. It is not.
The first human surviving female was about 150,000 years ago (Mitochondrial Eve).
The first human surviving male was about 290,000 years ago (Y-chromosomal Adam).
Of course it is not that simple - but our genetic history did not start 6,000 years ago.
I think it is time for the DNA challenge to the COGs.
They adopted a plausible explanation of a later creation with the gap theory.
Beats me how they can come up with a plausible explanation for DNA tracing our ancestors.
Even when you believe in intelligent design - like I currently do - it looks like we are missing a huge chunk of the history of mankind before we get to Abraham.

I was thinking of doing this myself, but I am a tech geek, not a writer like you are.
Can I interest you in putting a colorful blog entry about this?
I would love to see the COGs address this instead of their periodic articles debunking evolution. Maybe they can come up with a plausible explanation. It is dishonest for 6,000 year creation theorists to keep ignoring DNA science.

TLA said...

Anon 8:36am "No matter how many times you show that the big bang is is not science "

But it is science - I have watched educational videos where scientists show how they trace the universe back to its beginnings. Scientists have measured the expected background radiation.

I believe HWA accepted that 14.5 billion years could be right, though he said God created everything by fiat (the most powerful car ever made).

There is a lot of stuff they are still figuring out and speculating on - because it does not have things they can prove yet, but the age of the universe does have measurements that agree with theory.

Anonymous said...

Well wrote Connie, Anon 10:43 where is the hate on this thread? Oooooh don't like first hand experiences being expressed on this website ? Too bad, perhaps you need to travel and broaden your horizon.

the Ocelot said...

And seeing those dreaded jowls!

Anonymous said...

Bit rich coming from you.

Anonymous said...

But it is science - ... Scientists have measured the expected background radiation.

Background radiation predictions made in the 1920s, before the Big Bang theory existed, and before its proponents of today were even born, were far more accurate than the predictions of the big bang theory.

You are simply swallowing a lot of fake and one-sided evidence. Go read up on the other side of the story. Read The Big Bang Never Happened by Eric Lerner. That's a good start.

Anonymous said...

I believe HWA accepted that 14.5 billion years could be right ...

Herb was no scientist. How would he know?

... the age of the universe does have measurements that agree with theory.

Complete nonsense. Read The Static Universe by Hilton Ratcliffe.




Anonymous said...

Not all astrophysicists believe that the big bang theory best explains the observed evidence of the physical universe. The big bang is the most popular, but not the only theory that attempts to explain the universes beginning. Note also how the big bang offers zero explanation as to how or why the laws of physics and chemistry were totally different for the split second that brought the universe into existence. It offers zero explanation for the existence of our present laws of physics and chemistry.

Dennis said...

634
Zero current explanation of how something occurred does not negate that what is understood did occur. Details to follow in time.

TLA said...

Maybe he is right, but...

From Wikipedia:
Lerner's ideas have been rejected by the professional physicists and cosmologists who have reviewed them. In these critiques, critics have explained that, contrary to Lerner's assertions, the size of superclusters is a feature limited by subsequent observations to the end of greatness and is consistent with having arisen from a power spectrum of density fluctuations growing from the quantum fluctuations predicted in inflationary models.[23][24][25] Anisotropies were discovered in subsequent analysis of the both COBE and BOOMERanG experiments and were more fully characterized by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe[23][24] and Planck.

Physical cosmologists who have commented on the book have generally dismissed it.[23][25][26][27][28][29] In particular, Edward L. Wright, the American astrophysicist and cosmologist, was critical of Lerner for making errors of fact and interpretation and criticized specifics of Lerner's alternative cosmology,[24] making the following critiques:
Lerner's alternative model for Hubble's Law is dynamically unstable
the number density of distant radio sources falsifies Lerner's explanation for the cosmic microwave background
Lerner's explanation that the helium abundance is due to stellar nucleosynthesis fails because of the small observed abundance of heavier elements

Lerner has disputed Wright's critique.[30]

Anonymous said...

Dennis
Why say that "zero explanation of what occurred does not negate that what is understood did occur?" I did not say otherwise. This is the straw man argument fallacy, which you have begun to frequently use.

TLA said...

Here is an explanation of a young Earth by a man who says he is an ex-evolutionist.

His set of explanations do not make much sense to me.

Why i believe in a young earth by ex-evolutionist Dr.Grady McMurtry Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGairhrPGc

I still believe in intelligent design - but don't believe that the first men were in the dinosaur era.
The gap theory is a plausible explanation - now we need to add a DNA gap theory to explain DNA results.
I want to believe Genesis.