Gary has asked me to listen to Dave Pack's last sermon of the Feast because he is out having fun at the beach. I will find a way to return the favor.
If Dave was to build you a house the same way he wanders around the Bible seeking to make himself correct on this issue of Jesus returning on the last day of the Feast and then, oops, that didn't happen, so now it's the Last Great Day....oops again, your windows would be firmly set in the crawl space, your walls would be made of roofing and the kitchen would be on the roof with the toilet where the stove should be.
Dave is a foolish shepherd and master in all the wrong ways of making scriptures mean what they never meant and putting them together in ways that were never intended, ever. He sees what is not there and hears the voices of scripture that weren't really talking to him.
Since the entire mess cannot be posted due to be copyright protected , let me summarize the issue.
Dave is/was convinced that Jesus was going to return on the last day of the Feast this year, which was Friday last. That did not happen. Then , with meandering and cobbling of scripture, Dave got it to mean on the Last Great Day. That did not happen as that was yesterday, Saturday. Bummer but predictable of course. Now the round Earth where all the brethren, some still in services and some on the way home troubles him and his scenarios.
But, with sleep and having passed deadlines....
"I went to bed last night absolutely knowing nothing was going to happen....suddenly all these verses lined up for late in the day (End of last great day instead)
Dave plays the same game of "Why would God reveal the time when it wasn't the time?" ....
"Would God suspend the watch for a whole year? .....watch watch watch...suspended...I don't believe that at all"
"For all I know, Christ could come during the afternoon service. And I just thought that incase that happened, ...it doesn't mean we're late at all."
Then Dave struggles with reality....
"I know that if Christ does not come this year, they would be crushed"
"They could say my Lord delays his coming"
"Maybe they could rightly say humanly speaking..."
"The mockers and scoffers would sorta be right"
"Our enemies would hear ....and unnecessary reproach would come on the church with me saying things too early or God saying things too early." (NOTE: It would actually be necessary reproach)
So fear not! Dave cannot yet let this failure go yet. I imagine he is having a bad Sunday today, But a few tweeks are in order.
"So back to the dynamic learning process I go through I wanted to share them with you"
A few simple thoughts...I could give you 30 points....
"I absolutely believe Jesus Christ will return today...."
"Those are points that suggest we are right on track'
"This may go longer than we think. Even longer than Mr. Pack thought" Speaking of himself
'Well I'm anticipating him today and I have a general idea of the hour"
But still....
"We have to roll with things..."
But some things are sure! And I'm pretty sure Dave will come up with some reason He had to be back in Wadsworth for Jesus to come to his Temple at Wadsworth in the next week.
"October 18th, 19th is the the day of Christ."
Are we talking Sunday night, Monday night? I don't know..."
But Dave is still sure...
It's over...the days of my voice now echo away... I could be wrong,...watch...I doubt it. You'll know in a few hours anyway..."
And now we do.
I have known Dave both in college and from 1973 on in the ministry. I have pastored around him and my parents both babysat his children and my Dad spent hours in the car with him visiting. He is very competitive both in sports and in ministry always having done the most, pastored the most, known the most, baptized the most raised up the most churches blah blah. I have seen him redraw church boundaries such that he could have more people attend his church than the ones next door.
Dave Pack is no theologian. He's not really intelligent or if he is or could be, his gross misunderstanding and self centered view of the Bible erodes it. Dave Pack is not a credible source for anything either Biblical or scientific.
I feel for those who have to sit during his Feast and listen to his drivel. Yet they do so by their own choice. Sometimes I feel sorry for Dave, but then again, he should know better but doesn't or won't. Ignorance is not just what you don't know, it is also what you won't know. And ignore-ance is what one ignores. Dave ignores a lot and seems to learn NOTHING from his numerous mistaken views of scripture.
I don't personally believe any of this will end well for Dave or those who put their trust in him as Shepherd. It's pretty much going to be a mess in time.
Dave may not get out of this without a great falling away from his Post Feast Church. Of course, it will all be predicted in scripture and "WE never fully understood, but I do now, what God is so obviously doing, So get back here, let me rock and gyrate you in your seats over the next year and send it in....."
"
23 comments:
Sad, a tragedy in the making perhaps? This type of nonsense in played out in a lot of "Christianity" today. A quick search of YouTube leaves one bewildered and appalled at the shear lunacy out there.
It's played out in the political arena as well.
Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Hoxha,Pol Pot and countless others in resent history.
Demigods abound and that is the reality of mans existence as history attests too.
The solution?
Man of himself, of his own devices cannot achieve nirvana.
History does not end well for men who play God or pretend to represent Him.
When we were told to not eat the fruit of a certain tree in the beginning perhaps we should of listened.
Perhaps that is the lesson of scripture.
SING ALONG TIME! -- Sing to the tune "Yakety Yak", by the Coasters 1959
https://youtu.be/aJfgHSUlr-s
Put that prophecy, in the trash...
Dont give Pack your spendin' cash
Packs a scrub on that kitchen floor
Lets hope that Pack speaks no more...
Yakety yak (Don't mind Pack!)
Scripture has 'Mr. Pack' nailed. He's (among other things) presumptuous. It's unscriptural to pay any attention to him:
Deuteronomy 18:22 (NIV)
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
I wasn't anywhere near the beach today, but I did manage to get the wife into the 2nd garden for what I term to the Baptist wife as the "Fall Easter egg hunt" - potato style. I dig and you look excited and gather what comes up I told her. In a bad drought year it was mostly very small marble size potatoes.
I told my wife, in a way we are play acting the RCG Fall experience. I am playing Dave Pack and you are playing the whole RCG membership I told her. I enticed her with the promise of her favorite food, hidden out of view but soon to be revealed by my spectacular effort. One more shovel here I told her and the one you are looking for has to be there. No wait, I know the big one is over here. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
No one knows the day or hour has lost all meaning for the RCG membership. Dave Pack has always known the day or so he has said. Now he knows the hour as well. And of course, the day and the hour of Jesus Christ's return was predicated upon Dave's message announcing it first and transporting itself across all the time zones of the world so all the ears of the membership would here it first and this then would validate Dave Pack as the true righteous messanger and good man of the house.
Poor Jesus Christ can't come unannounced unto the RCG, neither can he come as a thief unto the RCG and neither can he come fully in the clouds unto the RCG.
Mr. Pack, you and I need to trade places next year at the Feast. You can excite your remaining followers by digging up potatoes and telling them all kinds of stories and I will tell those who want to hear it; no one knows the day or hour, he is coming as a thief, he is coming in the clouds and you are all going back to your own homes.
“The Story of Dave Pack and the Restored Church of God Just Gets Sadder and Sadder”
Yeah, rant and rave, yell and spit, lie and steal, lie and steal, lie and steal....
Dave is entertaining rather than teaching his members in his so called sermons.
“.... Even longer than Mr. Pack thought ....”
Is the talking of a person that has completely lost touch with reality. Dave Pack just declared himself officially delusional, insane.
And I fear the worst for the members that cling o because they were taught by this madman that they have nowhere else to go.
Is there a psychologist in the house?
I wonder.. if The Great Packster is now sitting in a corner in one of the rooms in that big ugly building on the RCG compound in Wadsworth (aka 'World Headquarters'), sobbing and screaming because Christ yet again refused to obey Dave..
What do y'all think?
There is probably a very logical reason that Dave was counting on rescue by Christ returning, and why his members don't leave. He most likely has a big loan coming due, and who can forget his inspired words along these lines... quite frankly, Christ returns before it becomes due. The members don't leave because they sold everything and took out loans to "send it all in", so they are completely invested in his scam.
Prophecies made and the events don't come to pass - "I am right" becomes "We were wrong".
Big events happen and no one saw them coming - so prophetic verse mining finds things so predictions after the event can be made.
Nothing much has changed, only predictions seem to become more bizarre.
The model scenario goes like this. You go to a movie. You pay your eight dollars, watch the movie, escape reality and then get up and go home when the movie is over. But it was just a movie. It was all entertainment. Many of these Apocalyptic Millerites will be back at work this morning and the FOT 2020 and its titillating pseudo-prophecies will be yesterday's stale movie.
This "entertainment" model has some analytical value for those of us who are critics of Armstrongism. We see these scenarios as individual cases. We see them as crucial moments for the apocalyptics and their leaders. We do not seem them as entertainment but theology. And I think we may be wrong in this.
I think the Apocalyptic Millerite congregants listening to this don't see it that way. They see not a dramatic milestone but another repeatable event in a continuous process of worship. Melodramatic and bogus prophecies to them are a form of liturgy. Like charismatics jumping and jiving. Just another punctuation point in the flow of text. And that is the picture we need to get.
They enjoyed it this time and they'll do it again next time.
NEO
The past few weeks you are making my presence obsolete. Excellent!
Indeed, regarding your last posting, "2thirds is prophecy". Armstrongism is "imminent return or nothing".
It's the "messianic legacy", always to return in dire uncertain times.
It's obsolete now since "the Great reset" might usher in the "rod of iron forced peace utopia" or maybe not, it's a powerfull scenario/script though (and we are merely the players) and hwa mercurius, messenger of the gods AND trade (unseen hand). It's very easy when one accepts the academic definitions of all key words in armstrongism.
Nck
I disagree with you NEO. I’ve heard too many “I’m soo tired of waiting”, “It is about time Christ does what is promised” and more along those lines statements from RCG members over the last few years.
It’s kinda like a cliffhanger in a soap series: you can pull off that trick during the first season, even a second season and maybe - if it is a big hit series - a third season. But anything after that? People will slowly start to look for something else. The tension and excitement are fading away.
That is why Dave is losing more members every day: his little trick doesn’t work anymore, or only to a certain extent. And what is worse, members talk about their disappointment amongst each other via social media. And Davey finds that extremely annoying.
not a dramatic milestone but another repeatable event
It's true, the Millerite derivative cults merely shift gears on failed dates: SDA 1844, JW 1914, HWA 1972/1975...
Anonymous (9:20)
I would agree that there will be a shake out every time something like this happens. Likely among greenhorns who see this as actual prophetic crisis rather than orchestrated liturgy. I can find no other good explanation as to why Apocalyptic Millerites have been doing this since 1844 and nobody learns anything from it. It is really a cliché. It may even have the properties of an addiction - the opioid of Apocalyptic Millerism. People show up to get their fix of prophecy and then go home and sleep it off. And most of them show up next time.
What I am saying is that there is some dynamic here that makes this scenario chronic and persistent and repeated. We don't just watch a movie once in our lives - we watch movies periodically - depending on our need to be entertained. And some movies are better than others. Maybe this year's bathetic movie deserves some kind of odd "Academy Award."
We've been spoiled recently here with the very entertaining RCG show.
Acogs have more clowns than the combined Barnum, Bailey & Ringling Bros.
DCP's RCG is my favorite HWA spin-off.
Yes NEO.
It's the liturgy of "imminency" combined with American "dynamic can do do it yorselve -ism".
Nck
I know that this year's Feast in RCG has gotten a lot of press on this blog (due to all the leaked sermons) as it should. If anything, it highlights how crazy the prophetic teachings (and other teachings) are in RCG, so that's a good thing. Perhaps it can stimulate some of those who are there to wake up to the insanity.
However, for those who don't know, this is the same exact thing that happened last year. There were multiple streamed/distributed messages from the "Pastor General" all covering Christ's supposed return by the end of the Feast. This is literally a repeat of what happened last year. When Christ failed to materialized on the LGD, then Dave proclaimed he would come throughout November. With a new date Every...Single...Saturday... Then when that didn't happen, he claimed Christ would come in the Christmas season and on and on. So we are still going here. It is insane but honestly not a lot more insane than last year. We all bought it up to a point but hey, there is no better time to leave...it's just so obviously wrong.
In order to stay with Dave's group, you either need to be a hireling or invent a new portion of HWA's theology to allow for false prophecies. From talking to members there, it is clear there is a mix of both.
Perhaps after the Feast, the membership could review the following RCG article. I will provide a few helpful quotes for those who don't want to read it.
https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/100108-001-prophecy.html
"These events clearly did not happen. Based on number and size of failures, Nostradamus is a particularly poor prophet. Among false prophets, he falls into extra false.
Now ask: Could the God of the Bible inspire prophecies that did not come to pass? What about even one? No. If so, He becomes a liar. Read what He says: “...I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure” (Isa. 46:9-10).
Only God can declare the future. And Hebrews 6:18 says it is impossible for Him to lie. His Word is certain. What He foretells—God does not predict—will come to pass. Even one failed prophecy means one was not sent by God."
"Remember, most of Nostradamus’ prophecies failed. And again, this could not occur with a prophet of God. Let’s see: “We [Christians] have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place...” (II Pet. 1:19). God’s prophecies are sure. They never miss. Not one! And they do shed light in dark places.
Here is God’s command regarding prophets: “And if you [ask] in your heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? [God’s answer] When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously: you shall not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:21-22). This states that men can presume to speak for God. This is very serious to God. It should also be serious to you. You must know if God sent a man—or if the man sent himself."
Not sure if Dave Pack deserves an Oscar or a Razzie for this years FOT performance..
The music ... Tonto is Connie in disguise?
Old news Anon 12:57 but yes.
When Dennis was a minister he knew more than he was telling about the paganism in the bible. If he had told all that he knew, he would have gotten the boot. But he likes to teach. I think he is still sitting on a lot of information about paganism that he is not sharing with us. Maybe he does not want to lose his fans here. Rather than keep repeating that Pack makes scriptures mean what they don't mean, he should be telling us that the Jewish religious establishment (including the new testament, because Paul was a Rabbi who invented Christianity and all his early supporters were Jews) made the scriptures themselves by making the pagan myths mean what they never meant in the first place. That is the fundamental problem, not Pack.
Is there any solution for Dave outside of declaring that he has now come to the realization that he is the returning christ? there are several scenarios and explanations I began writing, but then I really didn't want to give Dave any ideas. Actually a sad and disturbing situation at RCG.
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