The other day we had a reader here make a comment that we "owe our lives" to Herbert Armstrong. I assume they believe that since he "restored all things" and that we are or were remember of his church that we were set apart for special salvation rewards, like being kings and priests ruling over nations and planets.
Another reader here, Concerned Sister responded with this:
10:39, HWA didn't "restore" anything. He lifted his teachings from various other men and other churchs' writings, didn't reveal or give credit to the earlier sources of his material and claimed these teachings as new revelations given to him by God. For proof of this compare his United States and Britain in Prophecy book with the earlier title Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright by J.H. Allen. In doing this, he not only denied these other sources credit where credit was due, but he also deceived and misled others into believing he had some direct link or inside track to inspired revelation from God, which he didn't have. He also promoted his own ideas of a prophetic timeline with specific players and when those predictions didn't come true he simply kicked the can further down the road and continued to promote his own speculations of times and players, drawing from whatever happened to be going on in the news at the time, and weaving those events into his predictions and narrative, promoting those things as part of his "gospel" message. By Biblical standards this made him a false prophet, period.
While there are many of us who make comments on this blog who still believe in keeping the Sabbath, etc., the idolozation of this man is one of the chief sins promoted and nurtured within many of the COG groups today. The idea that we somehow "owe" HWA our lives and need to dedicate ourselves to "his" teachings demonstrates this. We have replaced Jesus Christ with HWA. It is Jesus who saves, and Jesus who sacrificed Himself to pave a way for our redemption, and Jesus who is to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, not HWA, or anyone else for that matter. If we "owe" anything to anyone, it would be Him, and His teachings are what we need to be dedicating our lives to. The teachings of anyone else must be evaluated against those.
I believe her comments above are spot on. Some COG leaders and many members have placed Herbert Armstrong on a pedestal and worship everything about the man.
Most of the larger splinter group leaders of the church use Herbert Armstrong as a lure to draw people in. They claim to be holding fast to everything he taught, but the fact is, each and every one of them has changed what he taught and either deleted things they did not like or added to it with "new revelations." These "new revelations" that Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland, and Gerald Flurry have are necessary to cover up the lies they teach in order to impress their followers that these are divine revelations and dreams from their god. If Herbert Armstrong were alive today and heard the crap these guys say and preach he would kick them out of the church so fast their heads would be spinning.
Each one of the above apostate COG leaders has their own unique spin of idolatry about either HWA's teachings or their own selves and their "new revelations". None of them has taken this to a level of such depravity as Gerald Flurry has in the Philadelphia Church of God. Not only has he placed Herbert Armstrong on a pedestal but he has placed himself as the promise Elijah and King as the possessor of the holy rock of Herbert Armstrong, which he has renamed the true coronation stone. This is the very rock that his creature called "christ" will supposedly return to.
This delusional thinking has also led him to declare himself and his followers as "Sons of Zadok". As Sons of Zadok, they are also blessed with church members who carry on the holy dance of God through Irish dancing. this was all prophesied in the Bible for the end times that the church would be using Irish dancing as a light to the world to spread the words of Elijah and Zadok as they prance around the holy rock of HWA enshrined in a new coronation chair.
According to Gerald Flurry this rock of Herbert Armstrong, now encased in a royal throne for PCG's Celtic Throne production. will be the very rock that his "christ" will return to and sit upon as King of Kings...all thanks to Gerald Flurry continuing true church government and for possessing the true rock of Herbert. His "christ" needs these two things in order to return to earth as King of Edmond Oklahoma Kings.
Church of God News has this up:
Gerald Flurry is so weary of long-time members ‘murmuring and rebelling’, that he is condemning to eternal death those who continue to do so, and turning instead to PCG’s youth.
His latest revelation is for the ‘Sons of Zadok’ and their Irish dancing.
“In Moses’s day, God warned that those who didn’t stop murmuring and rebelling would die (Numbers 17:10). That is what God says to us spiritually. At some point you must stop the murmuring and rebelling, or you’re going to die! That is the opposite of the total trust God is building in His people. This is about eternal life and eternal death.”
“Enemies … will probably say people who hear a voice belong in insane asylums, and it is crazy to follow someone to a place of safety who says he is a king. They will compare us to cults like Jim Jones, which committed mass suicide.”
“Enemies … will probably say people who hear a voice belong in insane asylums, and it is crazy to follow someone to a place of safety who says he is a king. They will compare us to cults like Jim Jones, which committed mass suicide.” (PCG’s Royal Vision magazine, July-August 2020)
In the September-October 2020 issue, he gives his new revelation:
“God has given me new understanding about Ezekiel 43. This chapter is about the sons of Zadok. It is important for all of us – especially the sons of Zadok today – to understand what is revealed in this chapter.
This new revelation came two days after our youth arrived for the Summer Educational Program and two days after the last performance of our recent Irish dance production, Celtic Throne. God timed this precisely to show how important our youth are to Him! Ezekiel 43:7
7 He said, "Son of man, this is the place for my throne, the place I'll plant my feet. This is the place where I'll live with the Israelites forever. Neither the people of Israel nor their kings will ever again drag my holy name through the mud with their whoring and the no-god idols their kings set up at all the wayside shrines.
VERSE 7 OF EZEKIEL 43 BRINGS THE NEW THRONE RIGHT TO WHERE THE SONS OF ZADOK ARE …
We need to do like David did when he was bringing the ark back to Jerusalem: Dance with all our might, sing with all our might, get behind God’s work with all our might! It will change your life and change this Church!
You could see this in our Irish dance production of Celtic Throne
We had some of the sons of Zadok up on stage at God’s house dancing, singing and playing music with all their might, in the spirit of David! On the stage we had a throne with Herbert W. Armstrong’s prayer rock underneath it – the new stone of destiny, a symbol of Christ – there with the sons of Zadok! Everything revolved around that throne and stone. Celtic Throne was a production about God’s throne …
We are giving the world a picture of what it’s like when God has a Summer Educational Program for the youth, what it’s like when God has a college – what it’s like when God has a whole Church of the sons of Zadok! This world will ask us to show them what’s that like – and we will!”
Gerald Flurry issues a warning to the ‘murmuring’ elders in PCG:
“Notice what God records about the man who gave us the prayer rock:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5-6).
This is the harshest warning in the Bible. God says about as strongly as He could, If these ministers don’t turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to the fathers, they are going to lose their eternal lives!”
If these murmuring ministers had any testicular fortitude they would publicly denounce the evil teachings and tell the people the truth about the lies of King Flurry. Jesus does not give a rats ass about some dirty old rock now enshrined in a holy chair. He is no more returning to this chair in Edmond Oklahoma than he is to the sacred grounds of Dave's Wadsworth, Ohio cult compound. One thing for sure is that whenever Jesus does return there will be at least two COG leaders who will experience something they never imagined.
Notice how the second part of the verse that King Flurry used to prove his throne to the members is not elaborated upon.
7 He said, "Son of man, this is the place for my throne, the place I'll plant my feet. This is the place where I'll live with the Israelites forever. Neither the people of Israel nor their kings will ever again drag my holy name through the mud with their whoring and the no-god idols their kings set up at all the wayside shrines.
If you are a follower of Christ instead of the little men in charge of various Churches of God you will understand that men like Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, and Ron Weinland will never again have an opportunity to "drag my holy name through the mud with their whoring and the no-god idols".
The sad thing is in today's Church of God movement is that we do not have any men with testicular fortitude that will stand up and denounce the liars in charge of their own church or other COG's. Far too many of them feel that though they may be separated by church divisional walls they are united in the truth and that they should not denounce the ministries of other COG's.
With over 400 some splinter groups and more splintering off every month, the truth of the matter is that the COG is sick and rotten to the core because of its leaders. There is no unified Christ-like message being brought to the world around them.
The world sees nothing attractive about the god that most of the COG's worship, even better is most COG members don't even see anything attractive about that "christ" anymore! That is why so many are leaving the church. Members are exhausted in trying to keep up with the demands and ludicrous teachings of self-appointed Elijah's, dreamers, prophets, and apostles now claiming leadership in the church.
When you look around the world and see the horrible persecution Christians deal with in so many Muslim nations with bombings of churches, beheadings, rapes of young women and mothers, and all the other horrible things they deal with and yet through it all they never waiver in their faith and find comfort in a Christ who says he says he carries their burdens.
Matthew 11:28-30
COME TO ME, AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST
28 "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me - watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you'll learn to live freely and lightly."
This is not the "christ" of any of the Churches of God. So go ahead and murmur against the players leading the Churches of God. Expose them and call out their hypocrisy. Better yet, leave their groups and find true freedom! Hundreds of thousands have over the last 9 decades and more do so every day!
To read more of the lunacy of Gerald Flurry and the "Sons of Zadok" teaching, in his own words, check these out:
77 comments:
"We need to do like David did when he was bringing the ark back to Jerusalem: Dance with all our might, sing with all our might".
Judging from his first wife's Michal's complaint - David was not wearing any underwear, and displaying himself to all the young women.
Since PCG has young women and men performing - they would be putting on quite an X-Rated show that maybe HBO or Showtime would want to pick up.
When you selectively read the Bible, you miss a lot of interesting details.
All of this Irish dancing at PCG gives the gay students a safe place to be themselves without the prying eyes of the leadership looming over them. In fact, the entire music program at HWA College is a safe haven for those gay.
"men like Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, and Ron Weinland will never again have an opportunity to "drag my holy name through the mud with their whoring and the no-god idols"."
I can feel the butthurt welling up in the Five Cities of CA. Bobus Thiel will not be happy!
The claim is made that all of the splinters have changed their teachings from what HWA taught. Has anyone taken the time to put together a chart showing these changes? I'm curious but not so curious as to waste my time putting one together. It is enough to know that what HWA taught was in error. A chart with the changed teachings along the top and the churches along the side. Sort of like this, perhaps.
Sabbath British Israelism Medical Care Make Up etc.
HWA
PCG
LCG
UCG
CCOG
“If Herbert Armstrong were alive today and heard the crap these guys say and preach he would kick them out of the church so fast their heads would be spinning.”
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Concerned Sister is indeed spot on.
Again, more fear-mongering. But what do you expect from false prophets who are threatened with members likely finally finding out that they've been duped and are deciding to leave? Well, of course, threaten them with eternal death. And who is GRF to have a say in who goes to their eternal death? This only proves he has the spirit of Satan, and is an anti-Christ himself. To PCG members, leave now to save yourself while you can.
Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry probably lie out on nice days looking up at the clouds and saying "OH Look! That one looks like ME" They read their Bibles the same way.
Gerald R. Flurry claimed to be faithfully holding on to everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught, even though Gerald Flurry COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY CHANGED THE ENTIRE COMMISSION OF THE WHOLE CHURCH from the very beginning of his own PCG cult.
All of Herbert W. Armstrong's years of teaching that the “Great Commission” that Jesus gave to his apostles (not prophets) was to preach the gospel (meaning “Good News”) of the coming Kingdom of God were immediately forgotten and suppressed in GRF's PCG cult. According to HWA, the true gospel had been suppressed for 1,900 years until the Worldwide Church of God (which was the Philadelphia era of the true church) was given an “open door” to preach it to the world. Shortly after HWA died, GRF tried to suppress the true gospel yet again. Some people think that HWA was too repetitive, but this shows that HWA could not emphasize things and repeat them enough.
GRF said that the gospel had been preached by HWA, as if it were now over and done with. GRF arbitrarily claimed that the PCG had been given a “new commission” for a new church era to “warn the Laodiceans.” All of HWA's teachings about the apostle Paul's double curse on anyone who would pervert the gospel or preach another gospel were immediately forgotten in the PCG cult. PCG cult people immediately went along with GRF's new non-gospel “commission.” GRF's “new commission” was really, as the apostle Paul said, no gospel (meaning “Good News”) at all.
Later, Gerald R. Flurry even started to teach that he himself, rather than Jesus, was what GRF called “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that everyone had to listen to or else God would call them to account. So, basically, a drunken runt like GRF told the PCG cult members that instead of listening to Jesus they were supposed to listen to a drunken runt like himself. It is amazing what some people will fall for.
Gerald R. Flurry said that his PCG cult had been “FLOODED WITH MUCH NEW REVELATION,” but GRF claimed that it just built upon what HWA had taught rather than changing it. Nevertheless, GRF felt it was necessary to edit and change HWA's last book called Mystery of the Ages so that it would not expose GRF's crazy desire to be a prophet.
Gerald R. Flurry recently decided to forget about the Stone of Destiny for under the Coronation Chair in Britain and find a new, local, pet rock, which GRF thinks is the one that HWA used to pray at for a little while as mentioned briefly in HWA's Autobiography. GRF now claims that this new pet rock is the new throne stone. For sure, this is just more nonsense, but at this point what does it matter what “That Runt” makes up anymore?
Gerald R. Flurry's recent claim that, “If these ministers don’t turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to the fathers, they are going to lose their eternal lives!” could very well be exactly what will happen to GRF and the fake “ministers” that GRF set up in the PCG cult. All the “warn the Laodiceans” nastiness, and demonic “No Contact” policy division, and other Satan-inspired anti-family teachings in the PCG cult, came directly from GRF through his fake “ministers” that he had set up.
Gerald R. Flurry always wanted everyone to think that he is Herbert W. Armstrong's loyal and faithful successor even though GRF and Satan have always been busy from the very start totally changing and utterly perverting every major doctrine that HWA had ever taught.
Does bob thiel have a leather chair like HWA? If he don't then he ain't chosen of gauud.
The Sons of Zadok ...
The HWA Squawk...
The Flurry Rock...
ARE ALL A CROCK!
I doubt he has Herbs chair but I bet he bought some of Herbs underwear at one of the auctions
AW, C'MON! All this text - and you don't have a single wedding photo?!?!
who said anything about a wedding here?
There is no wedding photo because the counselor has not married his counselee yet.
You can see Flurry's wedding pictures here:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026138/mediaindex
I have started using the term "Apocalyptic Millerite" to refer to these COG sects. They have departed from HWA teachings in significant ways. I am not sure even that HWA would be comfortable with all of their adulation of him personally. To refer to them as Armstrongists (I still use this term at times) is to actually credential them with beliefs the no longer hold and loyalty that they no longer possess.
I believe HWA was a heretic so I am not saying that being credentialed as an Armstrongist is a good thing within the North American Christian movement at large. But it could become a badge of honor among these tiny, perpetually warring, schismatic Millerite sects. This sounds odd, I recognize, but I think to refer to some of these organizations as Armstrongist is to besmirch the character and reputation of HWA. And at some point in the future these sects will even cease to be Millerite. Some student of religion will have to coin a new name for them.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Like the founder of the movement, the leaders of the descendants of the Worldwide Church of God are ignorant of Scripture, history and science. First, READ the Biblical accounts of the kingdom period - there was no stone connected with the throne of David. The association of a stone with kingship is an ancient Celtic tradition that was peculiar to Irish and Scottish coronation ceremonies.
Scripture is also very clear (in both the Old and New Testaments) that the Davidic covenant would be fulfilled by the Messiah, not in the line of kings that ruled over Judah and Israel - and the promise was also clearly spiritual in nature. Hence, the fact that David's dynasty/house/tabernacle fell at the onset of the Babylonian Captivity (and was never restored) is of no consequence to the fulfillment of the prophecy. In other words, there isn't any need for a physical throne, stone or person to exist somewhere in the present - God is the source of that kingship (nothing/no one else is needed).
Moreover, DNA testing and history have conclusively demonstrated that European royalty is NOT Jewish or Middle Eastern in origin, and that many different houses/dynasties have ruled over those countries down through the generations (there aren't any unbroken father to son lines anywhere).
Finally, don't you find it more than a little ironic that a culture which prides itself on deriving ALL of its teachings from Scripture would rely so heavily on heathen mythology and legend? Why would one put any credence in stories about a stone that the Bible basically mentions one time in connection with the patriarch Jacob/Israel? Why would anyone give any credibility to someone who claims that the special status of that rock had somehow been transferred to a random stone from Oregon which they speculated was used by a 20th Century religious huckster as a place to kneel and pray? Where is the scriptural authority for this s..t?
It's sad, so sad. You don't need to be well-educated - You don't need to be a biblical scholar to see how ridiculous and utterly preposterous this stuff is! All it takes is a modicum of intellectual curiosity and reading, and an even smaller measure of common sense!
There was once a website that proved HWA stole credit for British Israelism from J.H. Allen. It was moved to the painful truth site. Presumably it is still there.
Neo is spot on.
2:06
There are extensive listings of differing believes and doctrines from hwa.
They are called, "lists of available booklets and articles."
I guess you mean, a matrix of differences between the 700 splinters.
Start with looking at the birthday of the resident leader in combination with year of baptism for the basic differences. And refine that with their troublesome upbringing with absent or abusive fathers,for the level of fetish with "government."
Nck
8.32 PM
British Israelism was a official doctrine of the Anglican church before HWA was even born. So I question whether he "stole" it from J H Allen, or that J H Allen thought it up himself. In fact the doctrine dates back to the 160Os.
Anon November 18, 2020 at 8:32 PM,
Correct. Start here:
https://hwarmstrong.com/ar/Roots.html
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?si=31076351&pid=r&n=0&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=÷&query=British+Israelism+
"Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry probably lie out on nice days looking up at the clouds and saying "OH Look! That one looks like ME" They read their Bibles the same way."
LOL. This is one of the funniest and most descriptive posts I have ever seen on this site. Maybe the MOST funny and descriptive in so few words!!
Like HWA or loathe HWA, at least he wrote in his own name, he didn't hide behind pretend pen names like the writers on here.
I agree fully with Anon 9:45. This can easily be proved as even the British national newspapers at the time of Queen Elizabeth's coronation wrote openly about British Israelisim.
Why are alleged American commentators on here sooooo obsessed with British Israelisim. Is that what Americans think about? Or what we are led to believe.
"We have replaced Jesus Christ with HWA.'
unfortunately that is true for many "members" of The Church....it's as if they have this Roman Catholic mentality of "just do what the minister says and you'll be fine", regardless of what the bible says.
Where did HWA steal the teaching of man to be born into the family of God as God is God aka God is reproducing Himself. Something only God can reveal to him, surely? Stolen from Mormon teaching? Nah, not the same as some may think. HWA has something original from God after all, Concerned Sister, no?
Miller wrote: "Finally, don't you find it more than a little ironic that a culture which prides itself on deriving ALL of its teachings from Scripture would rely so heavily on heathen mythology and legend?"
You have pointed out the crux of the matter. Much of what Armstrongists believe as historical reality seems to me to be a blend of the OT Biblical account and fantasy. And these two themes do not comport well. They seem to constantly elbow each other. The former is a component of the Armstrongist culture of legalism and Phariseeism. And the latter might be a minor motif in Tolkien. But within the former, one will find a condemnation of the latter. The OT does not make room for fulsome literary additions, custom liturgies, entertaining mythologies and novel theologies.
It is difficult to imagine that hidebound people who are so deeply immersed in the demands of the OT would gleefully adopt dreamy adjuncts to their beliefs from the world of fantasy. And then to prize fantasy so greatly that they reject both history and science. Maybe this is born of some secret and wild desire for freedom. But then again, HWA was early on preoccupied with The Great Pyramid. I have never read what he actually wrote about it. But I have encountered information on this topic from other sources. I recall that he thought The Great Pyramid was calendrical in some way - the Ages were mapped out in its structure. At that time long ago I was intrigued but now it seems to me like it might have been a near brush with occultism. I am not sure why some douty Armstrongists have not built a pyramid somewhere. So this predilection for fantasy seems to have been an Armstrongist property from the beginning. People always like a good story.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Anonymous (6:08) wrote "Something only God can reveal to him, surely?"
Such a revelation was not from God. God would not reveal heresy to HWA. Inherent in HWA's belief is the usurpation of Gods perfect and infinite role by his creatures.
There is a Christian doctrine of Theosis that was well developed in the time of the patristics. HWA would have done well to have read it.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer.
Anonymous 11/19 @ 5:02,
It is too hypocritical to let pass that you are posting anonymously while criticizing others for using pen names! And why should we commend Herbie for slapping his name on the work of others?
And, finally, who cares where Herbie got his stuff from or who else espoused it (this applies to several comments here)? The point is that British Israelism, God as God (blasphemy), Pagan Holidays or God's Holy Days, Holy Day symbolism, etc. are WRONG/HERETICAL!
-Miller Jones aka Lonnie Hendrix
Anonymous (5:02) " . . . British Israelisim. Is that what Americans think about?"
You must be new to this.
First, HWA wrote under his own name because he was the despotic ruler of a religious empire. He was unafraid of stepping on anybody. There are a variety of reasons why people use monikers - all of them practical.
British Israelism is the internal structure of Armstrongism. HWA himself called it the "keyu to prophecy." If BI goes, the structure collapses. British Israelism is also easily established as total malarkey. This combination of facts makes it an enticing target. Americans like efficiency.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
"Moreover, DNA testing and history have conclusively demonstrated that European royalty is NOT Jewish"
Where's your proof of this statement? That's right, you have none because the goal of geneticists is not to prove or disprove British Israelism.
Your supposed conclusive evidence is merely your interpretation of the data. As said before, you don't know what Jacob's haplotype was so there is no way to prove or disprove your statement. That means the evidence is not conclusive as you claim.
Anonymous November 19, 2020 at 6:08 AM said...
Where did HWA steal the teaching of man to be born into the family of God as God is God aka God is reproducing Himself. Something only God can reveal to him, surely? Stolen from Mormon teaching? Nah, not the same as some may think. HWA has something original from God after all, Concerned Sister, no?
-----------------------------------
JW's teach it. A organization older than the radio cult of gauud.
6:08, in 1977 I heard Robert Kuhn talk about the origin of the spirit in man teaching. He said HWA started saying that there was a spirit passed along in the sperm. Kuhn wrote a paper in which he used many words to say that matter cannot pass along spirit. He was afraid that HWA would disfellowship him when he read it but HWA accepted Kuhn's conclusions and went back to the drawing board and came up with the spirit in man doctrine as we know it.
After hearing Kuhn, I have always believed that HWA did originate this doctrine although much of what he taught was plagiarized.
"Where did HWA steal the teaching of man to be born into the family of God"
From Charles Taze Russell.
https://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2018/02/god-family-doctrine-originated-from.html
Something only God can reveal to him, surely?
Apart from plagiarizing and "improving" on the ideas of others and passing them off as his own (a bit like Edison) I'm sure HWA was able to come up with ideas of his own (again like Edison). For example, the "spirit in man" doctrine was somehow attributed to Dr Kuhn, who later denied it, saying HWA came up with that idea.
So I question whether he "stole" it [British Israelism]
One of the first things I read when I discovered the WCG website was a history of the BI doctrine, written by Ralph Orr. [And hailed as one of the best pieces of literature to come from the Tkatch WCG.]
6.08 AM
The bible does not teach HWAs doctrine of man becoming "God as God is God." That's Herbs marketing back ground kicking in. What the bible teaches is being born into God's kingdom and becoming kings and priests. That God will give on a plate the skills and abilities acquired over trillions of years to resurrected humans is childish. It flies in the face of basic reality of reaping what one sows. It's the same lie of Satan in the garden of Eden telling Adam and Eve that they can become like God by just eating a apple/taking a pill.
Dave Pack telling his members that he will give them a god pill if they hand over all their money is the same lie. There's no god pill.
8:21
The apple story is extremely scientific. Food and speech and brain development are interlinked in evolutionary theory on the development of the mind (and the godly characteristics that seperate it from the animal brain functions.)
Moreover if God would be do incredibly stupendously omnipowerful, I cannot conceive he comes up with something so deficient as "man."
But hey "the mind" seems close and foodprocessing had something to do with the development into a self conscious human "godly" being.
The 4th industrial revolution will enhance humans to godly quality, read yuval noah harari.
Nck
Nck
Nck
Anonymous (7:47) wrote "That's right, you have none because the goal of geneticists is not to prove or disprove British Israelism."
I have seen no evidence in the literature that geneticists have an interest in the half-baked idea of BI. My guess is that this mythology does not rise to their level of interest and provides no motive for inquiry. On the other hand, their findings coupled with historical data can be applied to such questions as BI.
Please read the third paragraph under the heading of "A Genetic Interpretation of the Genesis 10 Genealogy" in the document linked below.
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2020/03/the-noachian-bottleneck-and-refutation.html
You realize that if you do not want to believe a horse is a horse, nobody can prove it to you. We have reportedly 50 million people who believe that D. Trump won the election. I had an Aunt who believed that a shooting star was the relocation of a star from one place to another in the sky. And there are people for whom BI is not fantasy but reality.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Neo wrote: "HWA was early on preoccupied with The Great Pyramid."
The college library in Pasadena had an entire shelf of Great Pyramid books. It included two of the original 1877 & 1880 editions of The Great Pyramid books by Charles Piazzi Smyth. That book is where Herbert got a lot of his end-time timeline from. The entire premise of the book was that Job constructed the Great Pyramid and all of the measurements in it, from the exterior measurements, the interior chambers, its location at the exact center of the earth, and its orientation access. These all had great theological significance, according to the book, and contained charts detailing the prophetic timeline of the world in its measurements. These books can still be bought on Amazon and elsewhere. Some of them had been marked up and you could tell it was HWA's handwriting. I have first-hand knowledge that they were there because I used those books for a term paper for a class. Gullible me in freshman year....
Sooner or later God will become man as man is man
In I believe the 1955 PT, there's a series about the Armstrong Middle East trip.
Loma jokes that if there is special knowledge concerning the great pyramid "Mr Armstrong certainly is not privy to it." I have sermons on tape where HWA says that nothing about pyramids has been revealed to him.
Yes in the 1930's the 3rd Angel message was a huge thing in "Millerite"/adventist/COG circles.
Nck
The only heretic is you. An atheist actor at heart, who masquerades in all kinds of different characters, to destroy the COG from within.
nck wrote: "The 4th industrial revolution will enhance humans to godly quality,"
And when all the drones are the same, owning nothing, working is pointless, what motivation is there to succeed? Communism destroys the souls of men.
No2HWA -- Yes , early on , HWA was fascinated with Pyramidology, and was into things like the "Pyramid Inch" , where each of these inches in the inner chambers of the Great Pyramid translated into a year of time, and that things like turns or the like in the corridors indicated prophetic warnings.
It appears that the " 1920s HWA" was in regular pursuit of a "unique selling proposition" to differentiate himself from the other COG 7th day ministry.
He later settled on US/BC and Holy Days and other material gleaned from GG Ruppert and others, to create the divide necessary, and justification needed to start his own gig.
Painful Truth.
The first time I heard about the 4th IR was many (tech) years ago at the yearly pow wow salespitches at Salesforce and IBM. Only this year I've seen it associated with WEF conspiracy theory and communism.
Tonto.
I like your theory on USP sales pitch of HWA. You make it sound as if it was some academic pursuit. My research shows that more often if HWA, believed, understood or "had proven" it, it turned out to be "divine revelation."
For instance if the financing for any project was not secured, the project did not have "divine blessing", as proof, otherwise it would.
For instance, the defunct "Human Potential" project could be financed so it went through, the Pasadena Campus project or the auditorium however had been planned and postponed/stalled since 1962/1964,but only received "divine blessing" since 1969 or a godly, bankly go......
I read the "mandatory saturday sabbath" question was settled in the early 1930's because some radio program explaining the question to hwa had aired on a date specified by him. So that was interpreted as a definite sign apart from much study no doubt.
So it's more like a "secured faith" thing then an academic search for a usp.
Nck
" Anonymous Anonymous said...
Where did HWA steal the teaching of man to be born into the family of God as God is God aka God is reproducing Himself. Something only God can reveal to him, surely? Stolen from Mormon teaching? Nah, not the same as some may think. HWA has something original from God after all, Concerned Sister, no?"
no mystery there since scripture plainly says so....but then, it also plainly says "remember the Sabbath to keep it holy..." and virtually everyone ignores that too.
What do we actually know about BI.
I mean NON of you knows that when Napoleon Bonaparte abandoned the French expeditionary army in Egypt many soldiers got imprisoned but some of the officers converted to Islam and reached new heights in the Muslim world intermarrying with Egyptian lasses.
Some of the granddaughters got to marry the later King Faroukh of Egypt and one married the former Shah of Persia/Iran.
So it's safe to say that some of Egyptian and Iranian royalty is partly Celtic.
Most of the Kings mentioned by Shakespeare have descendants that are cabdrivers in London.
The future King George will be descendant of a miner.
It seems individuals are expendable but families can be eternal.
nck
“..... in the Muslim world intermarrying with Egyptian lasses....”
This tells me that you NCK are from the north. Scotland maybe? ‘You alright jimmy?’
"You realize that if you do not want to believe a horse is a horse, nobody can prove it to you."
Your problem NEO is that you refuse to acknowledge that you could be one of them.
It's been proven on here that some Jews have an ancient R haplotype originating from the Levant but you refuse to see that. How do you know that's not the original haplotype from Abraham? You don't!
Hey look NEO, over there is a horse.
Can't say aye. I learned the word at the Scottish SEP and Facebook just brought to my attentionme a myth about Scota an Egyptian princess as I was skimming through the movie "The Eagle", so I used the word.
As a kid I watched Lassie the lady dog.
Nck
Anonymous (9:59) wrote "It's been proven on here that some Jews have an ancient R haplotype originating from the Levant"
The R haplogroup did not originate in the Levant. It originated in Eurasia. There may have been R haplogroup interlopers in the Levant, in which case they would not be Jews even though they were living among the Jews. Some African tribes have members that are haplogroup R. But that does not point to their origin but to the influence of European traders. I have not seen the proof that you refer to. If you can post a link, I will look at it.
"How do you know that's not the original haplotype from Abraham? You don't!"
I know that Abraham was haplogroup J using the methodology I described in the link I posted for you earlier. I cannot, of course, swab Abraham's cheek and have it analyzed for haplogroup. But that is not necessary. A combination of history, Biblical records, haplogroups of modern descendants, archaeogenetics will all work just fine. We may deduce the haplogroup of your great grandfather in the same way even though he may be long dead.
But if you are really dedicated to the bogus idea that circumstances cannot lead us to Abraham's haplogroup and, hence, it must be R and BI must be true (a kind of "pedigree of the gaps"), at your next family reunion assure all your relatives that there is no credible way to demonstrate that your great grandfather is really your great grandfather. Circumstances don't count - only a cheek swab. You will find it interesting and educational.
NEO tell your incorrect thesis to this guy who, unlike you, is most likely a geneticist.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26946-Haplogroup-G-from-the-Levant-(early-farmer)-R1b-J-(herders)-from-East-Anatolia
R originated in the Levant/Eastern Anatolia region and moved west from there. Actually moved all over the known world.
NEO your logic makes no sense, or should I say illogic?
Of course you can deduce my grandfathers haplogroup from mine. We're close enough the probability would be excellent.
Your problem is that you assume that just because most Jews in the Middle East are J, you conclude Abraham was J. It doesn't work that way fella. No matter how much you wish it to be. There are many haplogroups among the Jews and no one knows which of those stem from Abraham.
We've gone through all of this before and you're still applying your bias against BI into your conclusions.
I'm not trying to prove BI, your twisting of facts, just like the mainstream media that you seem to worship, is irrelevant!
Here's another one NEO. Do you know where western Asia is? The Levant!
https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0964-5
"R-M124 men could have stood at Mt. Sinai as part of our ancient Jewish ancestry, or may have joined the Jewish people at a later time. History may provide some clues."
From this site:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewish-r-m124/about/background
I've presented this link before but I guess NEO refuses to acknowledge the possibility of it being correct. That it could be possible that ancient Israel was indeed R!
Anonymous (3:05)
I recommend that you read the Family Tree DNA write up carefully. There is no way that this write up about a trace presence of R-M124 can be construed to make the Jews and therefore Abraham haplogroup R. This is a haplogroup that can be traced back to South Asia. From your linked article:
"According to the Genographic Project[1] conducted by the National Geographic Society, the R-M124 haplogroup arose in Central or South Asia, and made its first entry into the Indian subcontinent 25,000 years ago. Today's members of the R-M124 haplogroup are present in northern India, Pakistan, and southern Central Asia at high frequencies. Some modern Turks and Iranians also belong to this haplogroup. However, R-M124 is almost non-existent in Europe, except among Ashkenazi Jews and a small handful of Sinti Romani people."
In any case, R-M124 is also known as R2a. The British people are R1b. So we are talking about two different haplogroups. See the Wikipedia article titled "Haplogroup R (Y-DNA)" to see the separation between R1b and R2a.
What you have done is inadvertently assert that the Jews, and Abram their ancestor, are either East Indians or Gypsies or similar peoples. But I would encourage you to look into genetics further. After a careful study you will become convinced that the British are not Israelites.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
NEO please don’t get into a debate with this person again. You’ve said your peace and he’s said his in another blog that continued endlessly back and forth. You both need to just agree to disagree and let it go. If not for your and his own peace of mind then at least for everyone else’s.
Oh brother! For someone who claims to understand genetics you haven't a clue. I didn't say that Jews were M124, I just copied a paragraph from a site which claimed the possibility. I know perfectly well that R1b is a different branch than R2a, but the fact is they both stem from a larger branch which is M207 or R. My claim is that it's possible that Abraham was M207.
I don't know and I don't care. I realize they think R1b and R2a separated long before Abraham's time but they don't know for sure.
Again, I don't care but I'm tired of the lie that DNA disproves BI. It does not, nor does it prove BI.
It's possible that Abraham was R or M207 but who knows!
Anonymous (9:37)
If you don't find the debate about genetics to your taste, don't read it. There is a lot of stuff on this blog that I don't read. I just conclude that it is for someone else.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Anonymous (12:52)
Why don't you make a clear statement of what your assertion is then. You referred me to a text that makes no mention of M207 except as a general reference. How am I supposed to figure out what you are talking about? You send me a bunch of muddled text that states no thesis in detail and then tell me that I don't have a clue.
The fact is genetics demonstrates that BI is false. No geneticist worth his salt is going to support it. You find one and let me know. What you are tired of is the truth.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Just where did I say that any geneticist would support BI? You continue to assume that I'm arguing in favor of BI, I'm not. I'm merely saying that DNA neither proves it or disproves it.
I've made plenty of clear statements, you just interpret what I say with your twisted hatred of everything Armstrong.
You can't disprove what I said about it being possible that Abraham could have been R can you?
NEO November 21, 2020 at 5:20 PM said...
Anonymous (9:37)
If you don't find the debate about genetics to your taste, don't read it. There is a lot of stuff on this blog that I don't read. I just conclude that it is for someone else.
*******
Oh I don't mind the debate at all as I'm learning a lot from your exchange NEO. It's just that I feel you're both like broken records saying the same thing over and over again (ie "DNA disproves BI" versus "DNA doesn't prove or disprove BI") and won't let up until the other concedes defeat. It's a pointless exercise in futility as you both think you're right and you're both trying so hard to convince the other, but it's going nowhere except in circles and for those of us watching on the sides it's like you're just butting heads with each other to no good end.
Anonymous (7:45)
I do not think my arguments have been repetitive. And I do not believe the other guy's arguments have merit. His fabulous arguments bear the earmarks of being made up as he goes along. To date he has not provided a well reasoned analysis of why circumstantial evidence should not be considered in this case. He just says "You can't prove it." (He is repetitive.)
Once again, if this disgusts you simply ignore it.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
Anonymous (6:47)
How about your twisted hatred of everything that is the truth?
Where did I say that you said that some geneticist would support BI? Why don't you actually read some of the stuff that I write?
Here goes something and then I am not coming back to this post. Here's a clue for you:
R1b originated around 18,500 BP
R1a originated around 22,000 BP
Abraham lived around 1800 BCE (traditional date)
Now you can now write up a paper explaining why scientists are wrong about these times of origin. Or you can write up a paper explaining how Abraham went back in time and started the R1b and R1a lines. Then send it to a genetics journal and see if you can get it published. Until you do this, I will be happy to skip over your comments. That way, Anonymous (7:54) will not get his undies in a bundle.
Bye.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
No 7:54.
NEO does understand genetics, but he doesn't understand BI.
Let me make it clear.
Suppose a God had said that the world would be cursed through the "Azeri" people.
Then the world through the Persian Iranians could become cursed through their Azeri leader Khamenei, being part of a minority.
20 percent of Scots today carry jewish genes, while non of the 17th century highlanders might have.
The thriving Floridan Cubans are thriving and supporting through the policies and structures of wasp government, their voting behavior shows.
Nck
Where did HWA steal the teaching of man to be born into the family of God as God is God aka God is reproducing Himself. Something only God can reveal to him, surely? Stolen from Mormon teaching? Nah, not the same as some may think. HWA has something original from God after all, Concerned Sister, no?"
Ron Dart talked about how this belief was NOT from HWA, but is a old belief and it comes from the Bible. This is a very powerful account. See the last 16 minutes of this sermon: 99F10 The Eighth Day.
Never mention Loma do you Tonto.
I'm sure you know all about occultisim.
NEO November 21, 2020 at 8:38 PM said...
Anonymous (7:45)
I do not think my arguments have been repetitive. And I do not believe the other guy's arguments have merit. His fabulous arguments bear the earmarks of being made up as he goes along. To date he has not provided a well reasoned analysis of why circumstantial evidence should not be considered in this case. He just says "You can't prove it." (He is repetitive.)
Once again, if this disgusts you simply ignore it.
*******
NEO November 21, 2020 at 8:51 PM said...
...That way, Anonymous (7:54) will not get his undies in a bundle.
*******
Well now I feel like I’ve upset you NEO and that certainly wasn’t my intention. So I apologize unreservedly to you. And let it be noted I haven’t found your exchange disgusting at all or have gotten my undies in a bundle over it. Like I said I’m learning a lot from your debate. I just thought to suggest a kind of “time out” that’s all—although I confess I could’ve done so better—as you’ve argued your case satisfactorily imo despite Anonymous always seemingly coming back to troll you. So again my apologies if I offended you. From now on I’ll watch the debate from a distance without butting my head in.
~~~Resume normal transmission~~~
NEO's commentary on Y chromosome haplogroups is correct. In terms of genetics, however, that is not the only evidence that argues against the acceptance of Anglo-Israelism. There are also mitochondrial haplogroups that address maternal lines (from where and whence they came). There is also something called autosomal DNA testing, and this has also demonstrated the absurdity of this racist teaching. Autosomal DNA has conclusively demonstrated that Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews represent admixtures of different ethnicities/lines of descent. In other words, they aren't just Abraham's descendants.
Moreover, we know that the testing of one's autosomal DNA can also demonstrate Jewish heritage. My father's results reflected that 4 % of his autosomal DNA is derived from the Ashkenazi Jewish community (and this result is certainly NOT universal to white Americans and Brits). Hence, my father's autosomal DNA demonstrates that we have a small and diluted amount of the blood of Abraham coursing through our veins. And, once again, the vast majority of "Anglo-Saxons" can't even say that! Hence, while Abraham may be one of my forefathers, it would be laughable to claim that I'm a Jew (in the genetic sense). All Christians and Muslims may be able to claim Abraham as a spiritual father, but that does not entitle them to claim physical descent from the man!
"Where did I say that you said that some geneticist would support BI?"
That's exactly what your sentence here implies. Are you getting forgetful in your old age?
"No geneticist worth his salt is going to support it."
Also, what part of this sentence didn't you understand?
"I realize they think R1b and R2a separated long before Abraham's time but they don't know for sure."
So there was no need for your little sarcastic clue.
"R1b originated around 18,500 BP
R1a originated around 22,000 BP
Abraham lived around 1800 BCE (traditional date)"
You can rely on those dates if you want but the reality is that scientists know that dating anything older than 3,000 years is very innacurate.
https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/evolution/radiocarbon-dating.php
I realize that article goes on to say that carbon 14 dating is reliable up to 50,000 years but the very first paragraph says:
"Despite its high popularity, [radiocarbon dating] involves a number of doubtful assumptions, some of which are sufficiently serious to make its results for all ages exceeding about 2000 or 3000 years, in serious need of revision." [Morris2000, pg. 162].
Feel free to believe that circumstantial evidence is 100% proof all that you want, I'm not that gullible! After all, you think it's scientifically accurate to believe "doubtful assumptions".
Miller, you assume that today's Jews are really of Abraham. There are some who doubt that. I don't know, which is why I maintain that it's impossible to prove any of this.
Radiocarbon dating is a well-established and widely accepted method for dating. Moreover, the science behind the concept is fairly simple and straightforward. see https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/radiocarbon-dating.html
Under the article "Willard Libby and Radiocarbon Dating: A National Historic Chemical Landmark," we read: "Libby cleverly realized that carbon-14 in the atmosphere would find its way into living matter, which would thus be tagged with the radioactive isotope. Theoretically, if one could detect the amount of carbon-14 in an object, one could establish that object’s age using the half-life, or rate of decay, of the isotope. In 1946, Libby proposed this groundbreaking idea in the journal Physical Review."
Continuing, we read: "The concept of radiocarbon dating focused on measuring the carbon content of discreet organic objects, but in order to prove the idea Libby would have to understand the earth’s carbon system. Radiocarbon dating would be most successful if two important factors were true: that the concentration of carbon-14 in the atmosphere had been constant for thousands of years, and that carbon-14 moved readily through the atmosphere, biosphere, oceans and other reservoirs—in a process known as the carbon cycle."
The article continues: "The concept of radiocarbon dating relied on the ready assumption that once an organism died, it would be cut off from the carbon cycle, thus creating a time-capsule with a steadily diminishing carbon-14 count...For organic objects of intermediate ages—between a few centuries and several millennia—an age could be estimated by measuring the amount of carbon-14 present in the sample and comparing this against the known half-life of carbon-14."
Willard and his team tested the concept's efficacy by comparing their results to the known ages of things like Redwood and Fir trees (by counting growth rings) and Pharaoh Senusret III's funerary boat (from a historical record of the king's death). How accurate is the technology? "When Libby first presented radiocarbon dating to the public, he humbly estimated that the method may have been able to measure ages up to 20,000 years. With subsequent advances in the technology of carbon-14 detection, the method can now reliably date materials as old as 50,000 years."
Hello People.
I don't think the dating in dna is established through radio carbon dating, rather average generation span and murations. Kinda like tree rings being exact but the entire width a summation of averages.
Nck
nck,
A previous commentator made some inaccurate statements about radio carbon dating. Hence, my response. You are correct that human genetic timelines are generally derived from mathematical calculations based on what we know about genetic evolution, known pedigrees and the testing results of discrete populations around the globe. However, it would also be inaccurate to leave readers with the impression that radio carbon dating of human remains and artifacts doesn't play any role in determining these timelines. Still, once again, my remarks were intended as a defense of radio carbon dating as a legitimate and useful tool of true science.
Nobody used Herbert W. Armstrong's name and photograph more than Gerald Flurry did to try to attract HWA's former followers.
Then, nobody changed HWA's teachings more than Gerald Flurry did to try to destroy HWA's former followers.
Post a Comment