What does it mean to be persecuted?
The leadership in many of the Armstrong Churches of God frequently claim that they are being persecuted because of the message they preach. They are in good company among U.S. Evangelicals in this regard. In short, they don't like the fact that some folks have characterized their messages as racist, homophobic or contrary to the spirit of Christ; and they call this persecution. In other words, any effort to denigrate or limit the appeal of their message is regarded by them as persecution. But is it really fair to characterize that as persecution?
Jesus Christ is reported to have said: "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:10-12, NIV Notice that Christ differentiated between those who were to be persecuted "for righteousness' sake" and suffer as a consequence of false accusations, and those who would suffer for the sake of genuine wrongdoing. Moreover, this differentiation is reaffirmed in the First Epistle of Peter where the apostle is discussing the treatment of slaves. We read there: "For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." - I Peter 2:19-20, NIV
Now my ACOG and Evangelical friends would say that they are standing up for righteousness when they advocate for the harsh treatment, imprisonment or death of homosexuals, abortionists and protestors; and they claim God's sanction for their persecution of these people. And, they have the audacity to claim persecution when someone dares to criticize them for doing it!
From a scriptural perspective, the kind of persecution that Christ and his followers experienced is not even comparable to what these ACOG and Evangelical leaders are claiming. Jesus wasn't simply criticized and insulted because of his message - HE WAS BEATEN AND PUT TO DEATH! Stephen was stoned to death! Paul was imprisoned for years and eventually executed! Indeed, when past persecutions of God's saints were discussed by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, we read: "Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground." - Hebrews 11:36-38 How many of these ACOG and Evangelical leaders have experienced these things?
Indeed, the way that the Greek word translated into English as "persecuted" is used in the writings known to us as the New Testament suggests people pursuing someone to the death! In other words, real persecution is indicative of an existential threat to the one being persecuted. And, as far as I can tell, none of these ACOG or Evangelical leaders have been imprisoned or put to death yet (at least, not for the sake of the messages they are preaching). On the other hand, the Yazidi people or Chinese Christians would certainly be justified in claiming persecution. However, a little criticism for what many folks would consider the persecution of others, does not even approach the level of real persecution. Even if we consider the targets of these folks to be "evil," we are hard-pressed to find any scriptural justification for persecuting them. In fact, isn't the proper role of a minister of Jesus Christ to seek that which was lost and to bind up the brokenhearted?
Hence, as long as these folks continue to peddle their hate-filled messages about "sinners", they should expect to be challenged by others. My advice to them: Stop whining about persecution and put on your big boy pants and get ready for some tough talk!
Miller Jones/Lonnie Hendrix
29 comments:
my ACOG and Evangelical friends would say that they are standing up for righteousness when they advocate for the harsh treatment, imprisonment or death of homosexuals
Will you give LCG credit for going against this pattern, actually giving good salaries and important positions to homosexuals instead of imprisoning or killing them?
People react to what others are at a fundamental level. They are not concerned about details. Cain murdered Abel because of what Abel was at his core. The same with Christ and His disciples. Which is why these ACOG leaders have not, and probably will never experience real persecution.
Every COG out there has gay and lesbian employees and members including Dave Pack and Gerad Flurry's groups. LCG, COGA and UCG have a lot of them.
The one who screams this the most is Bobus Thiel. This little twit has never experienced any persecution in his privileged white male life. It s all a lie when he claims otherwise. No one persecutes him for that he believes but for the lies and shenanigans he pulled in self-anointing and self-appointing himself to lead a splinter cult. Those actions are why Mr. Meredith kicked him out fo the church.
“Now my ACOG and Evangelical friends would say that they are standing up for righteousness when they advocate for the harsh treatment, imprisonment or death of homosexuals, abortionists and protestors; and they claim God's sanction for their persecution of these people. And, they have the audacity to claim persecution when someone dares to criticize them for doing it!”
It depends on what your definition of righteousness is. If, as a Christian, your standard of righteousness is God’s and by extension Christ’s Law, which Paul described as “holy” and “good” in Romans 7 and therefore what it defines as unholy and evil as wrong then if same sex behavior is defined as wrong and worthy of death by that same Law as Paul even noted in Romans 1 and you denounce same sex behavior and are criticized and discriminated against for that view then surely you would fulfil Christ’s own words in Matthew 5 about His followers being persecuted for upholding His standard of righteousness just like the prophets who repeatedly reprimanded Israel for turning away from God and His Law, which ended up costing them their lives. Further, like Paul noted in that same epistle to the Romans if God didn’t reveal His Law we’d have no understanding of what He defines as right or wrong and it is because He has revealed His Law and His Son kept it perfectly to death that we learn how sinful we are and as a consequence must confess and turn from our sins and to God through Christ. But, if we are indifferent to sin, and promote others to sin even living in sin ourselves then we’re not Christians, but hypocrites and our actions bear witness against our faith in that regard.
11:54
I second your call for an "inner aristocracy, unchangeable and eternal values," congratulations on my behalf.
I have one question for you.
Several times I have predicted "neighbors" kids to be gay since the age of 3.
Of course it started as a little joke between my wife and I, but LO AND BEHOLD. Several times it turned out to be that way by the age of 20.
How is this possible??????????
Do I have a godly gift of discerning good from evil and should my career have been in excocism or are the vast majority of gays just born that way whereby some display that from a very young age??????????????????????
Why would you accept the truth of children born with down syndrome or other than genetic abberations imposed during the creation of the fetus and not accept or even deny that in some way the human body at times might create a person of homosexual orientation???
Please, the question is only directed at the 11:54 bible thumper.
To be clear, I was triggered by the use of the word "hypocrites" while it appears to me that most homosexuals have difficulty being true because of people like 11:54.
2nd disclaimer. I am definitely not a homosexual, "me lika the ladies". I am just an observer of mankind being raised in a fundamentalist sect.
nck
Very interesting comments Anon 8:36. Thank you.
The Painful Truth has been persecuted by Bobus Thiel as he has mentioned us now and then criticizing our views. "But revenge is mine saith the Lord. I will pay back those who persecute you for the sake of righteousness."
So watch out Bobus, the Lord will repay you.
Anonymous 11/16/20 @ 11:54,
The Pharisees would have been proud of your definition of righteousness. Christ, however, demanded that the righteousness of his followers would have to exceed that espoused by the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20) - the one grounded in the letter of the law. Paul elaborated on this kind of righteousness in his letter to the saints at Rome - a righteousness based in faith in the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. He wrote: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:19-26 And this righteousness based in faith was not a new notion, Paul noted that Abraham's faith in God was attributed to him as righteousness.
In this connection, it has always been a source of great irony that the very scripture which the Armstrong Churches of God reference the most when asserting their duty to underscore the sins of the people undermines their definition of righteousness! They love to quote "Cry aloud, spare not; Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins" and ignore the verses that follow. The verses about Israel glorying in their observance of God's laws and their pious fasting. Then, we read: "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free, And that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, And not hide yourself from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, Your healing shall spring forth speedily, And your righteousness shall go before you; The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard." - Isaiah 58:6-8
Christ summarized the law as two great principles: Love of God and Love of neighbor (see Matthew 22:37-40). Paul wrote that love fulfills the law (see Romans 13:10). This is God's definition of righteousness - all of those do's and don'ts which Christ fulfilled point to this kind of righteousness. It's not the pointing finger which underscores God's righteousness - It's the open hand! (see Isaiah 58:9-10)
Lonnie
Come on , Boobus has been persecuted. He was ALMOST ARRESTED once!
This ranks right up there with some Biblical level persecutions like whippings, scourgings and crucifixions doesn't it??
Nck
Yes, some people are born with a strong disposition to be gay. Others are born with a strong disposition to be evil. In the genetic pool, every manner of weakness exists. But rather than surrendering to these weaknesses as Miller Jones advocates, it is the responsibility of every Christian to war against these weaknesses. Paul called Christians soldiers for good reason.
God doesn't play favorites. He's not going to put resurrected humans over angels who are tens of billions old for no good reason. So humans must out grow them, and this is achieved by struggling with ones genetic weaknesses. In that sense, these weaknesses are ones ticket to eternal success.
Miller Jones position amounts to burying ones pounds in the ground, and Christ does not take kindly to that.
Anonymous 11/17 @ 7:47,
Christ's Parable of the Talents/Pounds was about developing the resources we've been given by God. One cannot develop what one doesn't have. Now, as your comments relate specifically to homosexuals, it should also be noted that they have the same capacity and responsibility that heterosexuals possess relative to things like fidelity and self-control (and a gay Christian should most assuredly be concerned with strengthening/developing those gifts).
As for burying one's pounds in the earth, I think that we could make a good case for saying that those who scrupulously observe the same rituals and laws over the course of many years are doing exactly that! Do you honestly think that "I've done just what you told me to do - I've maintained my portion of the Holy Spirit" is going to cut it when we stand before God and Christ? I'm thinking that's kinda what Christ was talking about, and I suspect that those statements would be considered unacceptable.
7:47
I would like to thank you for your interesting answer/clarification of your position on the matter.
Nck
Nck said: "Several times I have predicted "neighbors" kids to be gay since the age of 3.
Of course it started as a little joke between my wife and I, but LO AND BEHOLD. Several times it turned out to be that way by the age of 20".
How is this possible??????????
Nck, I thought I was the only one to exercise future predictions of the sexual orientation and prowess of the young.
Of course my problem started in my ranching days when I would hog tie the fired up little bull calves. I would comment to the "hands" on which ones I would think would make a fabulous stud. Why that one and not the one before they would ask? Look at the start of the neck crest, look at the curley hair, look at the hips, look at the scrotal development.
Flash forward a year, the vet shows up and after a little exciting, the collection is complete and put under a microscope and I would develop a big smile from the results because the proof is in the pudding.
Anyhow, I am the market for a new bull stud and seeing here in the states the feminization of the paternal lines has mimicked that of the human lines, it has been tough to find what I am looking for locally.
Nck this question is for you with no disclaimers. Seeing I took my wife on my last trip for a potential purchase and asked her what she thought - she said she liked the color of him ...... so I need a little better perspective than shopping for the latest colors in Fall sweaters. If your game nck, you would be the perfect one to bring along to annaylize my next potential stud. The ladies await and a gay bull won't put any steaks on your plate.
Miller,
Your article does paint a true message. The cultural shift in the USA has been swift. As the street preachers in California on YouTube prove, the hate message against the homosexual dosen't want to be herd and could very well get the messanger kicked off the street or thrown in jail.
The book of Jude - which is a book on apostasy details fornication and strange flesh - the defiling of flesh as one evidence of apostasy from God. But it does so within the context of being in the presence of God or the congregation of God. So at some point in time, a convert is going to have to repent of such acts to not be considered an apostate.
Does the COG message unto the world falcilitate that repentence? No. Even HWA said we have got to get back to the good news in the 80's although he never did (predominantly).
A message that is hate filled and condemning unto the world who are potential converts concerning homosexual acts doesn't address the problem and most often just turns people away from God and stops the conversion process.
On the other hand, if in the conversion process one comes to Jesus Christ, then the COG's should not be encouraging the changing of the person's orientation, but encouraging the repentaence of such acts that stem from that orientation.
Jude summed it up 20-25 which includes having compassion on others and with fear pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the FLESH.
What About the Truth,
I would say that your offering of 11/17 @ 10:54 is the most logically consistent and "Christian" position available to a Fundamentalist Christian. I wish that some of my other Fundamentalist friends would adopt the position which you outlined here. If they did, I probably wouldn't feel compelled to openly challenge their preaching (and the theology which underpins it). Nevertheless, having said all of that, I have obviously reached different conclusions about the demands of Scripture, and what God expects from gay Christians. At any rate, thanks for your thoughtful and compassionate response.
I'd like that.
I would suggest you look the steer in the eye and yell:
"only steers and queers come from Texas private cowboy, and you don't much look like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down"
If it then makes a loud sound and points the horns at yur testicles, pull out the greenbacks and get the stud in the trailer back to broke back mountain real fast, yipiyyaah.
Nck
Miller,
Perhaps I should have read beyond this:
"my ACOG and Evangelical friends would say that they are standing up for righteousness when they advocate for the harsh treatment, imprisonment or death of homosexuals"
But, this is absurd to any major degree in most any of the churches, particularly evangelical. You might have some fringe group advocate this, but I don't personally know anyone that advocates this.
"The judgment against the gay societies of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) is a clear condemnation of homosexuality. Other judgments against the abomination of "mankind lying with mankind as womankind" are abundantly clear throughout the pages of · the Old Testament (see Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:17; Judges 19:22; I Kings 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; II Kings 23:7)." -What the Bible Really Says About "Gays" - The Plain Truth, August/September 1977, Garner Ted Armstrong
"Today the gay community is coming out of the closet in militant action to demand its "rights." And if they succeed in forcing laws to be passed forbidding all discrimination based on sexual preference or life-style, then there will be no stopping this or any other form of sexual deviancy. What an awesome effect that will have on our children and on the very fabric of our society. When will we learn that our society cannot cure its social sicknesses by legalizing them?" -Same article as the one referenced above
"The news has reported that Pope Francis said in a new documentary that “homosexuals have a right to be part of the family” and is calling for civil union laws for same-sex couples. I find these comments from the Pope unthinkable in light of the Word of God...The consequence of an unrepentant, unbelieving heart is also clear in the Word of God — eternal death. Unless we repent and receive His offer of forgiveness, surrendering our lives to Him, we will spend eternity a part of a different family when we leave this earth—the family of the condemned." Franklin Graham on Facebook 22 October 2020
Now, I may have misread what these men had to say about homosexuality, but it sure sounds to me like they are advocating for the continuation of society's persecution of gay folks. And, they both seem pretty clear that they believe homosexuals are deserving of death and/or eternal damnation. I could also quote from some fairly recent CGI sermons and articles - OR is this enough to establish the point?
Miller said:"Nevertheless, having said all of that, I have obviously reached different conclusions about the demands of Scripture, and what God expects from gay Christians."
Conclusions can change, the first and second "great awakenings" are a proof to that.
Having spent 18 years of my life with no religion whatsoever and then 14 years in the COG and then 18 years again with no religion (but with a conscience perspective) then 4 years in the COG again and now living as a heretic in the eyes of the COG elite, I will say affirmatively that my conclusions about the demands of scripture and what God expects from Christians has changed many times.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is firsthand experience worth? And within that experience, what is the objectivity and annalylization and circumstantial and direct evidence worth?
The one conclusion is hard to come by because let's face it, the fore-will of God has been defined as stretching from all encompassing and inclusive toward mankind clear unto God holding a narrow gate with few going through it.
Add in the free-will of man being defined as far as having no restraints whatsoever (sin=grace/more sin=more grace) clear unto there is no free will, just never ending ritual and liturgy and conclusions tend to get muddled.
If taking the Sabbath for one example, which I think you observe as I do, why do we observe it? Is it required for salvation? What is its purpose? If all of those who keep it chimed in, there may be 50 different answers to those questions. And I imagine there could be 50 people who could suffer persecution for their answers.
Openly challenging "their" preaching and theology at least puts out there a different narrative with other possible conclusions. But to the vertical hierarchy of the Armstrong movement operating within the established method blinded by the simple abstract, there are no other conclusions.
WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH,
Well said.
Many use the word hypocrite nck.
Perhaps one shouldn't be so easily triggered.
Take no notice of Miller Jones /Lonnie it's all an illusion to spark controversy in the Household of God.
"Creative Destruction" is what they call it.
"November 18, 2020 at 1:26 AM"
It did not "trigger" me on the emotional level.
It did trigger me as a logical fallacy.
nck
When Paul told the Corinthian church to disfellowshiped the immoral man, he then said that he doesn't judge the world. The church should be more concerned with the behavior of those in the church, and not demand that non Christians acts like Christians in their own private lives.
What does it mean to be persecuted?
I will tell you what it means .... It means that you are no longer welcome at your parents house because you chose to leave ‘the church’.
It means that your children never met their grandparents because you are an outcast (because you left ‘the true faith’).
It means that you, your husband and your children are told that you are ‘evil’, ‘satanic’ and ‘lost’.
Anonymous 11/18 @ 12:36,
Yes, that IS persecution!
12:36
No it's not.
It's immoral, a lack of understanding of the concepts of love and family (which are the 2 most spoken words in cults that do not understand those concepts and it is neglect, which in I believe France is illegal to deprive grandparents from seeing their grandchildren. (law triggered by divorce rates).
Nck
11:09 AM
Umm ironically in the "Christian" churches of 2020 this "immoral man" of the 1st century AD would be more than welcomed without any repentance or reformation necessary on his part whatsoever!
In fact, he'd probably fit in best in the upper echelons of the 21st century's "Christian" ministry itself!
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