Bob Thiel Thinks Pack Has Named Him As One of the Three COG Leaders To Die

Bob Thiel, the non-ordained self-appointed leader of the Continuing Ed Church of God thinks soooooooooooooooooo highly himself and his huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge ministry that Dave Pack has surely named him as one of the three COG leaders that will die before August 31, 2013.

I can almost guarantee that Dave Pack is not considering Thiel as one of these leaders.  If Thiel were to die, who will jump ship to Dave?  15 people in Arroyo Grande and a few hundred around the world?  That minuscule number of people will NOT be bringing in huge amounts of money, so this essential puts Thiel outside the boundary of The Three. 

Thiel's so called ministry is at the bottom of the totem pole in regards to the 700 splinter groups. A few hundred members and a crappy video program does not constitute a worldwide ministry.  He has not been able to draw in any non-COG folk into his mini group.  No one cares.

Although I have not listened to David Pack’s recent sermons (and more details are in the post RCG’s David Pack declares that ‘three shepherds’ will die on August 30, 2013. Is Bob Thiel one of them?), the above seems consistent with certain statements that he has posted.

The 24th of Elul is August 30, 2013.  If I, Bob Thiel, am actually one of the three that are supposed to die, and I am supposed to die with the other two, this is even more extreme delusion on the part of David Pack.

When I learned about this, I thought I had a pretty good idea who the three might be (and conveyed that to another COG group that had interest). According to the same source that provided me the transcript, supposedly I (Bob Thiel) may be one of the three shepherds that David Pack 100% believes will die by the end of August 2013. However, as David Pack did not clearly state that in a source I have been able to verify, he, presuming I remain alive which I will be, will likely deny he was referring to me as one of the three.

If David Pack is 100% certain then I challenge him to publicly so state. I am 100% certain that I am not going to die then and hopefully this will prove to RCG supporters that he is wrong about this and many other matters. Even if I am not one of the three (and my writing this may get him to make another disparaging comment or two about me), does David Pack have the courage to name names this close to his August 30th date?

James Malm "Takes the Gloves Off" to Attack COGWA's Stance on Not Keeping New Moons

James Malm, the wanna-be prophet and leader of the TRUE remnant of the COG is really pissed that none of the COG's will listen to his new moon teaching malarkey.  Christians down through the centuries have proven that celebrating new moons and blowing trumpets are a waste of time and not relevant to a Christians' walk with God.  The only people who have found relevance in it seem to be those die-hard legalists that pretend to be Jews though they cannot keep the law as expected.

Malm, has been seeking for some time now to form his own splinter cult that will provide an income source to him.  He is doing the same thing Bob Thiel did, by setting himself up as the final authority on scripture and the law.  Like Thiel, Jesus is NOT part of Malm's conversation. Like Thiel, Malm is not ordained, which is a direct affront to what HWA taught about church leaders.

Malm demands that all of his followers observe all new moons and blow trumpets.  Then that evening they are to study their Bibles because it technically is not a "holy day."

Herbert Armstrong and the Churches of God have all determined that this "festival" is not required and Malm does not like that.  He claims HWA was influenced by pagan Hoeh and other others to think that the Karaite Jews actually preserved the Jewish scriptures.  Malm says this is not so because the Karaites are Sadducees and perverters of the word. 

Malm is particularly incensed at COGWA because it is circulating a "secret" document on new moon observance to all its ministers that says it is not required.

Malm writes:

As far as I know this COGWA paper has not been published; perhaps to keep me from critiquing it.  It has been distributed to the elders to help them fight the word of God when they are questioned by their brethren.

I am taking the gloves off with this and I do not intend to pull any punches here, as this subject is a test subject, about whether people will obey the word of God; or whether they will cleave to what they think, regardless of the facts.  

Those who reject the word of God and the facts, to follow and cleave to obvious error; are rebelling against God and his word and have the Mark of the Beast; which is rebellion against the word of God.  

This paper is consistent with the teachings of most of the COG Groups and this series is applicable to all those who follow apostate men instead of the word of God on the calendar issue.

Malm is incensed that COGWA and all the other COG's are apostates because they don't follow him, yet his is in the exact same boat as they are, by bastardizing the scriptures to fit his perverted legalistic message.

In the Church of Malm, the law trumps grace.  The law is more important than Jesus. The 10 commandments are still required, though Malm and the rest of the COG's break every single one of them every single day.

Malm continues:

Ladies and gentlemen:  Today your God is testing and proving you! whether you are diligent to obey the word of the Lord your God; or whether you will obey false teachers from the Rabbins and or the COG leaders and elders!

 Yep, your god is pissed and angry. It is testing everyone.  That seems to be the state of the COG since the day HWA apostatized from the COG7th day to set up his own splinter group.  Armstrong's god is pissed. It has been for the last 75 some years.

An acolyte asks Malm if new moons are required for salvation.  Malm says yes, now that he has told you they are, you are now held accountable.

Dear Sir, one question please. Would my salvation depend on New Moon?

Our salvation depends on doing what we know. We are commanded to learn and grow in grace [repentance] and knowledge. If we reject growth in understanding and knowledge, if we refuse to do what God reveals to us; then we stop growing and because we reject knowledge from God he will reject us, Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee”, .

Knowledge of the calendar is not a salvational issue if we do not know about it; but once we do know we no longer have the excuse of ignorance for not keeping it, and refusing to keep the new moons and High Days becomes a willful sin and most definitely becomes a salvational issue of rebellion against what we know is of God and his word. James

As a side note, it is interesting that when you type in "should a Christan observe new moons" almost all of the early sites that come up are Armstrongite splinter cults.

Dennis on "There is a Seat for Every Butt"

There is a Seat for Every Butt

I had a client once that sold cars and had a really ugly pink convertible on his lot.  No one expected it ever to sell.  When asked why he even bought such a car for his lot as it would never sell he said.  "Oh no, it will sell.  There is a seat for every butt.  Someone will come in here and think it was made especially for them and pay full price."

And this is true.....

It has been my observation that one of the reasons there are so many kinds of one true churches is because there are so many kinds of one true personalities. Let's face it.  Most folk feel that how they filter their world, believe what they believe, practice what they practice and feel as they feel is just fine and probably pretty close to what should be.  No one ever joined the false church as far as I can tell and no one has ever told me , "oh yes, I know I am deceived by Satan, but I enjoy it and the people are nice."  No one ever told me that they knew everything they believed was BS but they didn't care.  

The desire to know whatever "the truth" of life is that draws people to any religion or belief system is born out of our need for purpose and understanding of the world around  us and of course, the fact that we know we shall die.  This one factor, our knowledge of our own demise, not found in any other sentient being, is the engine that runs religious seeking.  It is the origin of all doctrine and the subject of lives lived to achieve the desired outcome.  Our fears drive us to our religions and that is quite normal.  

Denominations have personalities and they draw those of like personality.  Pentecostals are known for their emotional services so draw those inclined to repressed emotions needing and outlet.  Speaking in Tongues perhaps appeals to the need to feel special or set apart in an uncommon way in an otherwise dull and routine life.   The very liberal who feel no need for "all to believe the same thing," can be found in Unitarian, Unity and Episcopal Churches.  You don't get disfellowshipped from these groups for holding contrary views of the Bible or your what's it all about being not the same as someone else's. 

Presbyterians tend towards intellect as well and set nicely in the middle of wanting to be and do what is right and understanding the Bible is not literally true in all it's presentation , science is good and  we're all here to learn. Besides we have other things to do.

Catholics tend towards the comfort of pomp, authority and tradition.  A good catholic can apologize away any Bible contradiction to their faith.  They are masters at taking a simple scripture, say on idolatry, and showing how it still lets them do what they do and doesn't mean what it says.  But then Moses made bronze snakes so no biggy.  You haven't lived until you listen to a Catholic apologist explain Mary or the need to obey the Magisterium when in doubt as they know. 

Baptists pride themselves in taking everything in the Bible as literally true.  God said, I believe it, that does it for me  works for them even if they don't understand the background or the difference between myth, midrash and hyperbole.  This church attracts men who like to yell and talk funny bouncing on their feet and members who love the show and an occasional "amen."

On Banned, we are often a bit dumbfounded wondering just  "who are these people that follow the likes of Gerald Flurry and Dave Pack?"  What are they getting out of this and why?  What is the appeal?  What are they thinking with all this obvious and ridiculous behavior, strange and weird ideas about themselves?

First of all, all COG's are Jewish Christian holdouts and for this I cannot fault them.  Jewish Christians were the first Christians.  If you exclude Paul, you have a Jewish people who follow who they perceived then as the promised Messiah.  Once the promised Messiah was killed, the game did change however as that was not in the cards for Judaism. 

The problem Jewish Christians have is what to do with Paul?  They think Paul was also a Jewish Christian going to Gentiles with a somewhat modified Jewish Christian view but they are wrong about this.  Like the early Jewish Christian leaders Peter, James and John did, Paul will have to be rejected as apostate and false. Paul indeed is the founder of our modern Christianity and not any Gospel Jesus.  Jesus would not have recognized Paul's thinking or conclusions.  Of course no one knows how to do that so they end up trying to figure out if Paul is for or against many things depending on the verses quoted.  It's also why they do not pick up on Paul's convoluted theology.  The Jewish Christian view of Jesus, End of Age, True Church, Protection, Resurrection and Kingdom of God is just so simple and appealing.  Paul's twisted and often tortured explanations which were admitted to be "hard to be understood" by even those who followed him are just too far out and not all that important really in the COGs.  If one can't see that Jewish Christian leaders hated the gentile interloper Paul, and why,  you will never get the NT straight or be more realistic in your understanding of Church drama, division and crack ups. 

 I never gave a sermon in my life on justification, sanctification or the triune this or that one scratches one's head over when you read Grace Community stuff by Ted Johnston over at "The Surprising God" Blog.  I read their views from time to time and shake my head with my own classic response of , "and you know this?"   Double talk if ever I heard it.  You see it does not appeal to my personality.  I could never be drawn to getting all swoozy over the Holy Spirit or the Trinity doing amazing things that are equally hard to be understood or even imagined.   I grew up Presbyterian.  When the Tkaches reinvented my wheel being so amazed at what they found, it was just a shoulder shrugger for me. It is neither inspiring nor motivating. I find the whole thing boring and unprovable as if I even wanted it to be so.  CGI stuff would put me in a theological trance with my response being "yeah, fine..whatever, who cares?"  I grew up with it and the WCG view was more appealing when young.  Not so much anymore :)

So what is it that draws people to the Flurry's and Pack's of COGdom?  Why do they allow themselves to be browbeaten by such messages as Dave's Clarion Call to do things with their resources that no sane thinking person would ever do?  It is very manipulative, to me, for a man to warn a congregation to be aware of himself going off track and getting strange so they could do something about it and then calm them back down with "but I tell you, I am not going anywhere."  Telling them "no, no, no, no...you can believe me now, because I'll say it's a, b, c and xyz," is manipulative group doping. .  I just told how I would manipulate you and deceive you and then I told you not to worry about it but got my own fears off my chest.  Simply nuts.  Back into the coma I guess.  

So what would be the personal beliefs someone would have to have to tolerate all this theologically off base drama?  Do these folk really believe Dave is spoken of in Haggai and IS the real topic of the book?  Who would really send in a retirement , inheritance or home sale to Dave? What church ever said to do that?  Even in the NT they tried it and it failed miserably if you know how to read between the lines.  It never became the norm. Besides you can only give all once so then what? Send in your retirement again?  Pull big triggers again?  If these kinds of things are what Dave says in public, what on earth does he say to them in private?  Why does Dave go ape shit crazy to get sermon tapes back that were only for the chosen ones ears?  Who are these people and why do the put up with this?  On top of this, what kind of man would want to administer Dave's views by being a minister in RCG?  What kind of a man would actually submit to Dave's 35 sell me your soul demands for forgiveness and restitution to his institution?  

These inner needs of those who simply must follow Joshua W.Packstrong may not be in the exactly correct order, but these must be factors in why Dave can fill seats with his ridiculous views of himself and error ridden theology.  Remember, Dave is actually not well trained.  Being "trained" by HWA, a man who was equally not well trained in theology is no feather in your cap.  It's like being taught to sing by Tiny Tim, who is famous for "Tip Toe Through the Tulips."  (TT always looked like Dr. Hoeh to me:)   

So...To be drawn to Dave Pack and RCG these must be my needs and views.

1.  I need to be told what the Bible says by one person who knows and I know Mr. Pack knows.  He went to Ambassador College and studied under Mr. Armstrong directly.  I am not capable of reading and applying it on my own.  Even in this day and age where knowledge and research is so much more easily done on all things Bible, I simple need someone like a Dave Pack to tell me what it says and means.

2. I need the security of being told, no matter what, I am special and no harm will befall me if I abide in RCG and under David Pack's wings.  Dave tells me we will flee and be protected.  A very scary concept and fraught with enough fearful outcomes to make you sick and more fearful in my view.  This is a huge theological mistake on Dave's part, and others, but I spare you.

3.  I believe in special Prophets, Priest, Popes and Apostles.  If I believe in those authority figures for a church then it is no great leap to believing in Watchers, Witnesses, Zerrubabels and Joshuas. 

4.  I am incapable of imagining who and what God is so I have to trust others to tell me about it is and what it is up to.

5.  There just has to be one absolutely true church somewhere and in spite of this one having only a few thousand followers, out of billions of humans, this must be it.  It's a small flock so that is good enough proof for me. On top of that, we do have persecution, so there ya go...

6.  I need someone to assure me good science well done is not correct and that stories meant as myth with a divine message are literally true.  I need to know Adam and Eve were real and where we really came from.  I need another to do my homework for me.  Note:  I have heard Dave confirm the 6000 year old myth which tells me all I need to know about the man's intelligence.  No one with any intellectual capacity in this day and age would find the earth to have been created a mere 6000 years ago in six days.  That is intellectual retardation.

7. I don't mind being told never to question Mr. Pack, his views, decisions or plans.  God corrects him not me. I believe that.   (That may about to be more true than Dave ever imagined).  I don't mind giving him my money which he told me is not really mine anyway (It's his) nor mind not questioning what he does with it.  I don't want responsibility for my own resources.

8.  I need to be in a church that changes not nor needs to learn anything new.  There actually is nothing new to learn and I'm content to just know what Dave Pack or Gerald Flurry knows.  I don't trust my own judgement .

9. If the Bronze age was good enough for my minister, it's good enough for me.

10. If I am a minister in RCG/PCG,  I don't mind being controlled and used.  Jesus used the disciples.  I don't mind being lower and believe firmly in ranks of human beings.God placed me under Mr. Pack.   I don't mind that if I don't see it now.  I will see it someday when I am more humble and God reveals to me that Mr. Pack is correct always.  It is ok that he is much more intelligent than myself and that I will trust his research and intellect over mine any day as God's Apostle. This is what faith is.  Mr. Pack told me that. 

11. I know time is short and Jesus is coming soon.  Mr. Pack assures me of this and reminds me of all sorts of 2000 year old scriptures written to now dead believers as to how soon it will be.  Mr. Pack assures me that this "soon" is really the correct "soon" just as this "Joshua" is really the correct "Joshua."

 

12. While I can see the disconnect between "soon" and all this building and expense , which I don't question, I believe Mr. Pack when he tells me this is what "blessed is he that is found so doing," means.  

13. I am not easily embarrassed by Mr Pack's extreme views of himself or his personally perceived calling.  He backs them all up with scriptures so I know he must be correct.

14. I know that if I ever feel Mr. Pack is into strange or weird ideas about himself, I would perceive it and leave.  Or I would know that God would correct him and he would take that correction to heart and admit he was mistaken.  Mr. Pack is the kind of man that would always admit to being mistaken or be sure I knew the difference between his opinions and what the Bible actually means. 

15. I don't mind and know that sometimes the truths Mr. Pack brings us can drive a wedge between me and my partner or children and it's ok.  The Bible says and Mr. Pack tells me this can happen.

16. As a woman, I know I am of less value than a man.  I know I have no voice if I am just a non-member mate but that I do have one, at least as far as half of our family income and stuff is concerned, if I am a member.  If so, then I can send it in.  If not, I accept being told I have no voice woman and my husband can send it in.

17. While I am aware that Ron Weinland made an ass out of himself setting dates of one kind or another, Mr. Pack is different and this is different.  Mr. Pack gets his dates out of the actual Bible and converts them to Roman time as God intended.  So all things will occur exactly as Mr. Pack says because it is really God saying it, not Mr. Pack.  He is not a prophet as he said so he is simply passing on what God has said and means.  It's a done deal.

18. I am incapable of cracking the code language in the Bible and Mr. Pack knows the code.  I totally trust he has the right code and that his 1960's decoder ring still works well.  Art Mokarow wrote a book called , "God's Puzzle Solved," but a puzzle is not a code and what he solved is not what Mr. Pack has uncovered in the code.  His code trumps Mokarow's Puzzle and this is why I come to church here. 

19. I like being in a church whose pastor notes the upcoming deaths of 3 blind mice in the splinters to show God's awesome accuracy in this age.  It might be literal but it also might be spiritual and easily explained away if not literal but it will happen as Haggai noted about Mr Pack uncovering this code. 

20. I need to be in a church where everything, and I mean everything is exaggerated, overblown, awesome, overarching and never before understood in quite this way, on a weekly basis.  I bore easily and this stuff pumps me up in my otherwise mundane life.  If the last awesome doesn't fly, the next one surely will and be more awesome!  It's almost like being Pentecostal.

21. I have no personal self esteem or worth and need Dave Pack to make me feel special even if he makes a fool out of me.

Now admit...some of us wonder "what if this stuff happens?"  "What is RCM dies?  Dave will use that?"   "Maybe Dave Pack knows something about Haggai and the Bible Code others just don't."  "What if I really do lose the Holy Spirit if I don't join him?"   "What if.......?"

(To quote Joshua W Packstrong)

Hey! Snap...snap...not to worry.    August 2013 will come and go just as any other August has.  Wars will continue in the world, the economy will worsen, the games people play will be exposed, government will govern badly. Kids will get read for school.  College classes will start up again.  An asteroid may hit but probably not.  Some will die in earthquakes and fires.  God will continue to try and get our attention with weather as Bob Thiel likes to believe as hurricane season is ramping up and Dave Pack will have some splainin' to do when the cars are not quite backed up into town coming to Wadsworth for the feast. 

I may write some more in September, I may not.  I may think I am over this crazy stuff or I may get more determined to confront it.  Life will go on in some form for billions.  Millions and millions will continue to go to their true churches never giving it a thought.  Thousands and thousands will drop out of one and head to another or just drop out.  Ron Weinland will still be in prison still trying to figure out why since he did nothing wrong and has nothing to apologize for to the brethren and Dave Pack will over arch and fall on his face.

 Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com