There is a Seat for Every
Butt
I had a client once that sold cars and had a
really ugly pink convertible on his lot. No one expected it ever to
sell. When asked why he even bought such a car for his lot as it would
never sell he said. "Oh no, it will sell. There is a seat for every
butt. Someone will come in here and think it was made especially for them
and pay full price."
And this is true.....
It has been my observation that one of the reasons there are so many kinds of one true churches is because there are so many kinds of one true personalities. Let's face it. Most folk feel that how they filter their world, believe what they believe, practice what they practice and feel as they feel is just fine and probably pretty close to what should be. No one ever joined the false church as far as I can tell and no one has ever told me , "oh yes, I know I am deceived by Satan, but I enjoy it and the people are nice." No one ever told me that they knew everything they believed was BS but they didn't care.
The desire to know whatever "the truth" of life is that draws people to any religion or belief system is born out of our need for purpose and understanding of the world around us and of course, the fact that we know we shall die. This one factor, our knowledge of our own demise, not found in any other sentient being, is the engine that runs religious seeking. It is the origin of all doctrine and the subject of lives lived to achieve the desired outcome. Our fears drive us to our religions and that is quite normal.
Denominations have personalities and they draw those of like personality. Pentecostals are known for their emotional services so draw those inclined to repressed emotions needing and outlet. Speaking in Tongues perhaps appeals to the need to feel special or set apart in an uncommon way in an otherwise dull and routine life. The very liberal who feel no need for "all to believe the same thing," can be found in Unitarian, Unity and Episcopal Churches. You don't get disfellowshipped from these groups for holding contrary views of the Bible or your what's it all about being not the same as someone else's.
Presbyterians tend towards intellect as well and
set nicely in the middle of wanting to be and do what is right and understanding
the Bible is not literally true in all it's presentation , science is good
and we're all here to learn. Besides we have other things to
do.
Catholics tend towards the comfort of pomp, authority and tradition. A good catholic can apologize away any Bible contradiction to their faith. They are masters at taking a simple scripture, say on idolatry, and showing how it still lets them do what they do and doesn't mean what it says. But then Moses made bronze snakes so no biggy. You haven't lived until you listen to a Catholic apologist explain Mary or the need to obey the Magisterium when in doubt as they know.
Baptists pride themselves in taking everything in the Bible as literally true. God said, I believe it, that does it for me works for them even if they don't understand the background or the difference between myth, midrash and hyperbole. This church attracts men who like to yell and talk funny bouncing on their feet and members who love the show and an occasional "amen."
On Banned, we are often a bit dumbfounded wondering
just "who are these people that follow the likes of Gerald Flurry and Dave
Pack?" What are they getting out of this and why? What is the
appeal? What are they thinking with all this obvious and ridiculous
behavior, strange and weird ideas about themselves?
First of all, all COG's are Jewish Christian
holdouts and for this I cannot fault them. Jewish Christians were the
first Christians. If you exclude Paul, you have a Jewish people who follow
who they perceived then as the promised Messiah. Once the promised Messiah
was killed, the game did change however as that was not in the cards for
Judaism.
The problem Jewish Christians have is what to
do with Paul? They think Paul was also a Jewish Christian going to
Gentiles with a somewhat modified Jewish Christian view but they are wrong
about this. Like the early Jewish Christian leaders Peter, James and John
did, Paul will have to be rejected as apostate and false. Paul indeed is
the founder of our modern Christianity and not any Gospel Jesus. Jesus
would not have recognized Paul's thinking or conclusions. Of course no one
knows how to do that so they end up trying to figure out if Paul is for
or against many things depending on the verses quoted. It's also
why they do not pick up on Paul's convoluted theology. The Jewish
Christian view of Jesus, End of Age, True Church, Protection,
Resurrection and Kingdom of God is just so simple and appealing. Paul's
twisted and often tortured explanations which were admitted to be "hard
to be understood" by even those who followed him are just too far out and
not all that important really in the COGs. If one can't see that Jewish
Christian leaders hated the gentile interloper Paul, and why, you will
never get the NT straight or be more realistic in your understanding of Church
drama, division and crack ups.
I never gave a sermon in my life on
justification, sanctification or the triune this or that one scratches
one's head over when you read Grace Community stuff by Ted Johnston over at "The
Surprising God" Blog. I read their views from time to time and
shake my head with my own classic response of , "and you know this?"
Double talk if ever I heard it. You see it does not appeal to my
personality. I could never be drawn to getting all swoozy over the
Holy Spirit or the Trinity doing amazing things that are equally hard to be
understood or even imagined. I grew up
Presbyterian. When the Tkaches reinvented my wheel being so amazed at what
they found, it was just a shoulder shrugger for me. It is neither inspiring nor
motivating. I find the whole thing boring and unprovable as if I even wanted it
to be so. CGI stuff would put me in a theological trance with my response
being "yeah, fine..whatever, who cares?" I grew up with it and the WCG
view was more appealing when young. Not so much anymore :)
So what is it that draws people to the Flurry's and Pack's of COGdom? Why do they allow themselves to be browbeaten by such messages as Dave's Clarion Call to do things with their resources that no sane thinking person would ever do? It is very manipulative, to me, for a man to warn a congregation to be aware of himself going off track and getting strange so they could do something about it and then calm them back down with "but I tell you, I am not going anywhere." Telling them "no, no, no, no...you can believe me now, because I'll say it's a, b, c and xyz," is manipulative group doping. . I just told how I would manipulate you and deceive you and then I told you not to worry about it but got my own fears off my chest. Simply nuts. Back into the coma I guess.
So what would be the personal beliefs someone would
have to have to tolerate all this theologically off base drama? Do these
folk really believe Dave is spoken of in Haggai and IS the real topic of the
book? Who would really send in a retirement , inheritance or home sale to
Dave? What church ever said to do that? Even in the NT they tried it
and it failed miserably if you know how to read between the lines. It
never became the norm. Besides you can only give all once so then what? Send in
your retirement again? Pull big triggers again? If these kinds of
things are what Dave says in public, what on earth does he say to them in
private? Why does Dave go ape shit crazy to get sermon tapes back that
were only for the chosen ones ears? Who are these people and why do the
put up with this? On top of this, what kind of man would want to
administer Dave's views by being a minister in RCG? What kind of a man
would actually submit to Dave's 35 sell me your soul demands for forgiveness and
restitution to his institution?
These inner needs of those who simply must follow
Joshua W.Packstrong may not be in the exactly correct order, but these must be
factors in why Dave can fill seats with his ridiculous views of himself and
error ridden theology. Remember, Dave is actually not well trained.
Being "trained" by HWA, a man who was equally not well trained in theology is no
feather in your cap. It's like being taught to sing by Tiny Tim, who is
famous for "Tip Toe Through the Tulips." (TT always looked like Dr. Hoeh
to me:)
So...To be drawn to Dave Pack and RCG these must be
my needs and views.
1. I need to be told what the Bible says by one person who knows and I know Mr. Pack knows. He went to Ambassador College and studied under Mr. Armstrong directly. I am not capable of reading and applying it on my own. Even in this day and age where knowledge and research is so much more easily done on all things Bible, I simple need someone like a Dave Pack to tell me what it says and means.
2. I need the security of being told, no matter what, I am special and no harm will befall me if I abide in RCG and under David Pack's wings. Dave tells me we will flee and be protected. A very scary concept and fraught with enough fearful outcomes to make you sick and more fearful in my view. This is a huge theological mistake on Dave's part, and others, but I spare you.
3. I believe in special Prophets, Priest, Popes and Apostles. If I believe in those authority figures for a church then it is no great leap to believing in Watchers, Witnesses, Zerrubabels and Joshuas.
4. I am incapable of imagining who and what God is so I have to trust others to tell me about it is and what it is up to.
5. There just has to be one absolutely true church somewhere and in spite of this one having only a few thousand followers, out of billions of humans, this must be it. It's a small flock so that is good enough proof for me. On top of that, we do have persecution, so there ya go...
6. I need someone to assure me good science well done is not correct and that stories meant as myth with a divine message are literally true. I need to know Adam and Eve were real and where we really came from. I need another to do my homework for me. Note: I have heard Dave confirm the 6000 year old myth which tells me all I need to know about the man's intelligence. No one with any intellectual capacity in this day and age would find the earth to have been created a mere 6000 years ago in six days. That is intellectual retardation.
7. I don't mind being told never to question Mr. Pack, his views, decisions or plans. God corrects him not me. I believe that. (That may about to be more true than Dave ever imagined). I don't mind giving him my money which he told me is not really mine anyway (It's his) nor mind not questioning what he does with it. I don't want responsibility for my own resources.
8. I need to be in a church that changes not nor needs to learn anything new. There actually is nothing new to learn and I'm content to just know what Dave Pack or Gerald Flurry knows. I don't trust my own judgement .
9. If the Bronze age was good enough for my minister, it's good enough for me.
10. If I am a minister in RCG/PCG, I don't mind being controlled and used. Jesus used the disciples. I don't mind being lower and believe firmly in ranks of human beings.God placed me under Mr. Pack. I don't mind that if I don't see it now. I will see it someday when I am more humble and God reveals to me that Mr. Pack is correct always. It is ok that he is much more intelligent than myself and that I will trust his research and intellect over mine any day as God's Apostle. This is what faith is. Mr. Pack told me that.
11. I know time is short and Jesus is coming soon. Mr. Pack assures me of this and reminds me of all sorts of 2000 year old scriptures written to now dead believers as to how soon it will be. Mr. Pack assures me that this "soon" is really the correct "soon" just as this "Joshua" is really the correct "Joshua."
12. While I can see the disconnect between "soon" and all this building and expense , which I don't question, I believe Mr. Pack when he tells me this is what "blessed is he that is found so doing," means.
13. I am not easily embarrassed by Mr Pack's extreme views of himself or his personally perceived calling. He backs them all up with scriptures so I know he must be correct.
14. I know that if I ever feel Mr. Pack is into strange or weird ideas about himself, I would perceive it and leave. Or I would know that God would correct him and he would take that correction to heart and admit he was mistaken. Mr. Pack is the kind of man that would always admit to being mistaken or be sure I knew the difference between his opinions and what the Bible actually means.
15. I don't mind and know that sometimes the truths Mr. Pack brings us can drive a wedge between me and my partner or children and it's ok. The Bible says and Mr. Pack tells me this can happen.
16. As a woman, I know I am of less value than a man. I know I have no voice if I am just a non-member mate but that I do have one, at least as far as half of our family income and stuff is concerned, if I am a member. If so, then I can send it in. If not, I accept being told I have no voice woman and my husband can send it in.
17. While I am aware that Ron Weinland made an ass out of himself setting dates of one kind or another, Mr. Pack is different and this is different. Mr. Pack gets his dates out of the actual Bible and converts them to Roman time as God intended. So all things will occur exactly as Mr. Pack says because it is really God saying it, not Mr. Pack. He is not a prophet as he said so he is simply passing on what God has said and means. It's a done deal.
18. I am incapable of cracking the code language in the Bible and Mr. Pack knows the code. I totally trust he has the right code and that his 1960's decoder ring still works well. Art Mokarow wrote a book called , "God's Puzzle Solved," but a puzzle is not a code and what he solved is not what Mr. Pack has uncovered in the code. His code trumps Mokarow's Puzzle and this is why I come to church here.
19. I like being in a church whose pastor notes the upcoming deaths of 3 blind mice in the splinters to show God's awesome accuracy in this age. It might be literal but it also might be spiritual and easily explained away if not literal but it will happen as Haggai noted about Mr Pack uncovering this code.
20. I need to be in a church where everything, and I mean everything is exaggerated, overblown, awesome, overarching and never before understood in quite this way, on a weekly basis. I bore easily and this stuff pumps me up in my otherwise mundane life. If the last awesome doesn't fly, the next one surely will and be more awesome! It's almost like being Pentecostal.
21. I have no personal self esteem or worth and need Dave Pack to make me feel special even if he makes a fool out of me.
Now admit...some of us wonder "what if this stuff happens?" "What is RCM dies? Dave will use that?" "Maybe Dave Pack knows something about Haggai and the Bible Code others just don't." "What if I really do lose the Holy Spirit if I don't join him?" "What if.......?"
(To quote Joshua W Packstrong)
Hey! Snap...snap...not to worry.
August 2013 will come and go just as any other August has. Wars will
continue in the world, the economy will worsen, the games people play will be
exposed, government will govern badly. Kids will get read for
school. College classes will start up again. An asteroid
may hit but probably not. Some will die in earthquakes and
fires. God will continue to try and get our attention with weather as Bob
Thiel likes to believe as hurricane season is ramping up and Dave Pack will
have some splainin' to do when the cars are not quite backed up into town coming
to Wadsworth for the feast.
I may write some more in September, I may not. I may think I am over this crazy stuff or I may get more determined to confront it. Life will go on in some form for billions. Millions and millions will continue to go to their true churches never giving it a thought. Thousands and thousands will drop out of one and head to another or just drop out. Ron Weinland will still be in prison still trying to figure out why since he did nothing wrong and has nothing to apologize for to the brethren and Dave Pack will over arch and fall on his face.
18 comments:
The problem isn't not enough seats, it's not having enough tithepaying butts to fill them all.
Those who choose their religious beliefs (as opposed to just going with what they inherited from their family) generally gravitate towards one which matches up with their own personality, emotional needs, and perhaps dominant hemisphere of their brain.
From the perspective of a young boy dragged into WCG by my parents, I often wondered about the basic sanity of those who, as adults, carefully evaluated Armstrongism and made a conscious decision to join. During my tenure in the church, it always seemed as if something were horribly wrong, but I just could not identify it, or properly place the blame. It certainly was not what you would call a nurturing religion. I believe that my parents had other needs than nurture, like the need for a highly structured lifestyle, and all of the organization and legalism was a natural solution for this need. I also feel that they needed to feel some sort of specialness to give meaning to their lives. I, on the other hand, am freestyle and enjoy being a down to earth everyday person, one with the tastes of the common man. To me, Jesus' example of servant leadership is far more appealing than being a king or priest who rules with a rod of iron.
The thing is, over the course of a lifetime, people change. Repetition can cause the things we are passionate about to turn to boredom. As the school of hard knocks instills an experience-based sense of security within us, we become less philosophically needy. Then, it seems as if those once regarded as mentors transform into a ball and chain. Mentors sometimes realize this, and actually do things to regain control. Some slip back under their mentor's control after a brief taste of what could be, simply because it seems more comfortable. This phenomenon was observed amongst the citizens of the former Soviet Union after the demise of communism.
What hope do those enslaved by toxic cults have? Not much. Many will be lifers. To escape, there must be desire. For a revolution to initiate, status quo must often be unbelievably bad. Realization that it just isn't working any more. Something in life has hit that the church just can't address or repair. A really bad screwup by the one in charge, forcing one to consider his basic sanity or sincerity. Obvious and undeniable unfairness. Sudden awareness of previously unnoticed doctrinal lies. These are all factors which can shake an individual to the core, forcing reconsideration of beliefs.
Bottom line is that people will remain in the splinters for as long as they feel that the scales are tipped slightly to the good side (their perspective). With the outright craziness we've been witnessing this summer, I'd say shelf life on that one is severely limited.
BB
Dennis, i didn't read your entire post but I want to present my theory on why humans need religion generally and why those like Armstrongism in particular. First, I assume that humans, having the ability to think abstractly, use imagination and forsee the future, live with varying degrees of fear, anxiety and dissatisfaction. These are uncomfortable states of being and people use a wide range of methods to try to manage the discomfort. Some are more effective than others and some are more socially sanctioned. Religion has been a popular method for handling fear, anxiety and dissatisfaction since ancient homo sapiens walked the earth. It seems to me that people with lower levels of fear or chronic anxiety can tolerate more ambiguity aboout their lives, deaths and spiritual matters. Some highly anxious people use alcohol, compulsive eating or other methods to handle the anxiety so they tolerate a religion that does not offer a lot of definite answers or perhaps no religion at all. There are people who are born into rather highly structured, fundamentalist religions who stay with their churches but just don't take them very seriously and feel quite allright about that. I think that the people who freely join and stay in Armstrongism must be people with a very strong need for external answers, structure, control, reassurance. In other words, I think that these may be people who have a very high level of chronic anxiety which Armstrongism appears to partially control or reduce, at least in the short term. However, the costs to the individuals in these groups seems very high. I am open to critique of this theory as I have never been in an Armstrong church and have had limited contact with members .
I think your observations and insights are spot on, Dennis. As you so well stated, "Our fears drive us to our religions…." Mine surely did. I'm ashamed to admit it, but the WGG was the second cult I was involved with in my 60 years. It took a terribly long time for me to learn when one is driven by fear, the outcome is always bad. Looking back, it's almost like I got the punishment I unknowingly sought. If those cults hadn't been there, I would have been enslaved somewhere else. Fear does that. It drives you into slavery. When you lose the fear, you become free.
Yes I agree with you all. We need to reduce our "aware that we are aware" stress, anxiety and questions about it all. WCG did reduce life stress for me in hindsite. Of course it produced it as well so there is no free lunch. Being called, chosen or saved is very appealing which is why when one finds that and the benefits of it , they fight so hard when challenged. Once you figure out what it is all about, you don't want anyone or anything coming along to question it and put you back to square one even if older and wiser.
This is a very insecure feeling time for me. There is always underlying anxiety and I suppose that has always been my nature. My head runs like a train, a trait I evidently share with DCP by his own admission in his autobio. That feeling I know.
I listen to and try to absorb Eckhart Tolle's video lectures on just being and staying present. Anxiety of course comes from future concerns which are not any more real than the past now. Residual emotions and such do tend to linger as we know. But now is all we actually have and staying present seems to be a key to mental health. The ups and downs of "feelings" have left me here alone looking at my shih tzu Chewie asking her how the hell this all happened. No repy yet lol.
Of the 4000 human beans who read this blog a day there HAS to be one intelligent , liberal , old hippie woman who joined the church in 60's and missed Woodstock out there who wants to talk to me! lol
I can't believe I was sitting in Rod Meredith's Harmony of the Gospels class while back home just a short way from where I grew up, Grace Slick was siging White Rabit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2yQLXTuctA
Tolle has a great video on defining oneself as "the one who is lonely" etc. He knows and brings the kind of clarity to real things that no sermon I ever heard or gave did as far as I can tell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=341U2YUjaZw
I/we used to say that experience is the best teacher but the tuition is high. And this is true. However, it also is the only teacher as everything else is mere hearsay. This I believe and the road through religion is just another class I suppose.
I think I am a spiritual person which is an inner thing and not something that others inflict on you. This is probaby why my reaction to DCP is as it is. He peddles religion and not one bit of spirituality is to be found.
My church seems to best be that rock in the river or looking at the Milky Way and knowing we're all stardust. I'm a philosopher at heart I suppose and I have been since I was a kid. Maybe old souls do get stuck in young kids lol.
Anyway, I ramble, It's morning. I consider most of you here friends that I would enjoy real time dinner and coffee with. BB, we'd get along well and though we are in different places, I think we would understand each other having been in those shoes. You have a good perspective and I have always mostly , sometimes, often appreciated your perspectives and your journey.
We're all here to learn. It can be an oucher but not ready to be stardust again just yet!
Gotta go get a haircut. The cutie who does my hair, whispered to me "I'd date you if I wasn't married." lol Made my day!
Lord have mercy wherever you are!
PS Gary and I fantacize about all of us getting together for the Non-Feast and each getting to speak while we scoff at each other. lol. Or maybe even listen!
Nonsense. People want a Nimrod hero they think will solve their problems.
There's no fear about it.
The stronger and more powerful the leader appears to be, the more people will accept -- it's as simple as that -- and it's always been this way, right up to and including President Obama.
After that, it's hubris.
Dennis, if I'm ever over in the Southeast, I'll look you up.
One of my manufacturers does have a plant and training center in Atlanta, but so far I have skillfully avoided being coerced into spending time there. Short staff, too much time away from my customers, etc. But, I can't hold out on them forever.
I heard a radio discussion the other day about how the two happiest or contented times in peoples' lives is their early twenties and their mid to late sixties. That would seem to bode well for the Woodstock generation, but as we know, Armstrongism has been a powerful modifier. Sometimes, all we can do is tie a knot in the rope and hang on for the ride, and it has certainly been one hell of a ride!
This Pack thing has been strange in some ways, but totally predictable in others. I firmly believe that anyone who came up with such nonsense while HWA was alive would have been thought of as having succumbed to some bad influences, counselled, and possibly disfellowshipped if he fixated on the stuff and refused to give it up. Though I have no allegiance to or belief in HWA, the knowledge of how he would probably have handled Dave does help keep things in perspective.
BB
DB said: "After that, it's hubris."
That's exactly why Dave Pack is a Hubraic Scholar and Theologian and not a Hebrewic one.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"
Dennis, I attend the same church you do: "My church seems to best be that rock in the river or looking at the Milky Way and knowing we're all stardust."
We're all stardust in origin, but our current form is meat. (That's the literal meaning behind the word "incarnation.") Our meat will dissolve in the groundwater, evaporate into the atmosphere, and mingle with the humus of the earth. Our dissipated substance will get redistributed to other organisms in the cycle that has been swirling on the planet since the first organisms appeared here.
As I see it, this process is entirely material. I never know exactly what anyone means by the adjective "spiritual," because everyone seems to mean something different. To avoid confusion, I avoid the word myself. So I am interested to learn what you, personally, mean when you say you think you are a spiritual person.
I admit to using the noun "spirit." To me it means something close to "distillation of essential traits." So if, for example, a bunch of my former colleagues and I are sitting around telling jokes, one of us might say, "Wouldn't Leigh Homstad have enjoyed that story?" If everyone nods, then it is fair to say we have kept the spirit of our dead colleague alive. But he is a shared construct in our minds, not a separate being hovering invisibly in our midst. The same meaning applies in such phrases as "the spirit of the law." However, that meaning of the noun does not lend itself to any usage of "spiritual" I have seen.
good question RP
I guess I mean contemplative, how and when and why it all came to be. Is it a hologram? If so...of what? What is reality , matter and light? Was the Big Bang the touching of two flat branes and parallel universes producing a spark and yet another brane? Awesome stuff. Evolution of the universe, earth, life, humans. When did we become conscious and why? Why did chimps with whom we share a common ancestor 5 million years back , go to the zoo while we went to the moon? Spiritual I suppose means the unknown but searchable. I don't mean it in any religious way as we would think. The acceptable awesomeness of the atoms and elements that make us all up were the results of "stars exploding and puking their guts into the universe," as Neil Degrasse Tyson says. Love it. The fact that everything and everyone sprang from a singularity and a very small one at that. Thus we are all one and the same but different
I like the idea we are all small bits of the one big conscious thing learning about itself. We are learning by perceiving. That is spiritual to me.
dd
DENNIS---
IF I was GAY, and IF I wasnt married , I would ask you out.
Hope I made your day! LOL!
Luv,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Yikes....lol. She cut my hair today and gave me a number of someone waiting to hear from me lol. Contacts are important! dd
Do you live Joe on Brokeback Mountain in Colorado? lol dd
Those who choose their religious beliefs (as opposed to just going with what they inherited from their family) generally gravitate towards one which matches up with their own personality, emotional needs, and perhaps dominant hemisphere of their brain.
Actually, the religious beliefs one 'chooses' is MUCH more determined by the cultural milieu in which one resides.
A grown man, asking another grown man to explain God and spirituality to him; it doesn't get any better than this
Dennis,
Thanks for the clarification. Given your definition, I too am spiritual. However, since you are the only person I know who defines the word this way--in fact, the only one who has set forth any clear definition--I plan to continue avoiding it.
Our discussion here gives me an idea for an article about the incidents that caused me to abandon "spiritual" as a descriptor. It'll take some mulling time.
Anonymous said...
"A grown man, asking another grown man to explain God and spirituality to him; it doesn't get any better than this"
Yeah, isn't it great? Sorta like the book of Job, except without all the earnestness and gloom. It's the way Dennis and I preserve our youthful good looks and boyish charm.
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