Thursday, June 5, 2025

Pondering the Armstrongist Torah Redo: The Confessions of a Former Festival Advisor

 

Staircase to the Southern Gate of the Second Temple (Fair Use)

 

Pondering the Armstrongist Torah Redo

The Confessions of a Former Festival Advisor

By Scout

לָשׂוּם אֶת שְׁמוֹ שָׁם (Hebrew, “to place his name”)

 

At one time, I was the Festival Advisor for the small WCG congregation I used to attend.  I was a part of the regime.  It is now high time for me to do penance.  This is the time of year when many of the little apocalyptic Millerite denominations that cascaded from the collapse of Armstrongism will encourage members to start festival planning.  So, it is the season.  In this writing, I refer to the Feast of Tabernacles (FOT or Sukkoth) because it illustrates some of the issues with the way that Armstrongism re-implemented the Torah in a new rendition. 

The History of Re-imagining the Torah

I will first discuss Rabbinic Judaism. I believe this is an important preface because I think many Armstrongists view the observance of the Torah as what happens in their local Jewish Congregation.  The Jews keep all the Holy Days locally.  But that was forced by the Destruction of the Temple in 70 AD during the Great Tribulation. 

The Torah is bound to a gathering place for worship.  The place was a tabernacle in the wilderness and then it became the First Temple, then the Second Temple.  The watershed event in the history of Torah observance was the loss of the Second Temple to Roman destruction in 70 AD, well after the introduction of the New Covenant.   The Judaic response to this truncation was to repackage the Torah sans Temple for local synagogue praxis.  This was inaugurated by prominent Pharisee Yohanan ben Zakkai (lived circa 1-80 AD; there are various spellings of his name) who had the endorsement of the Roman conquerors, particularly Vespasian.  Ben Zakkai had credibility because he and his faction were not seen by the Romans as a part of the Jewish Revolt.  Ben Zakkai assembled the Bet Din in Jamnia, a city to the west of Jerusalem on the Mediterranean coast and they repackaged the Torah to function without a Temple for synagogue liturgy.  One of Ben Zakkai’s guiding principles was that “deeds of love” had replaced sacrifices. 

Then, for Rabbinic Judaism, there is the issue of God having placed his name at the now destroyed Second Temple.  The placing of God’s name at a particular location is referred to by scholars as “the centralizing formula.”  According to researcher Zvi Koenigsberg the rabbis noted that the locations (called “high places”) varied in the time prior to the Temple and saw that as a principle that permitted multiple locations to be chosen. 

This collection of events, briefly stated, is the source of Rabbinic Judaism that most North American Gentiles are familiar with. A further sidebar issue is whether in the formation of Armstrongism the praxis of Rabbinic Judaism was copied, explicitly or implicitly, or if a separate but similar repackaging of the Torah sans Temple occurred.  I will not seek to address that issue in this writing.  What is known is that how God placed his name on the worship location to which the Torah is bound was of a different character among Armstrongists than what is depicted in the Bible.  The Bible asserts a high revelation in which God himself spoke the place where his name would dwell.  In Armstrongism, there was a low revelation in which HWA saw that circumstances were pointing to Big Sandy (also referred to as Gladewater) as the place where God’s name would dwell and this provided a valid location for Sukkoth observance.  The former revelation is documented in the Bible and the latter is documented in Armstrongist literature and, if it is credible at all, has only denominational scope. 

In both Rabbinic Judaism and Armstrongism, the Torah was uncoupled from the Temple without a precise Biblical model that I can discern to support this action.  Scripture does not anticipate the need to reassign the placing of God’s name.  The leaders of the Bet Din sat in Moses’ Seat but how did that authority extend to this uncoupling?  And where is the Biblical authority for Armstrongists to tamper with the placement of God’s name?  These are questions that need answers from those who would perpetuate Torah observance without the Temple.  The uncoupling of the Torah from the Temple seems to be a case that is yet to be built.

The Problem of the Temple-centric Torah

The Armstrongist rendition of the Torah fails the jot-and-tittle test (Matthew 5:18).  When Jesus made that well-known jot-and-tittle statement, he was referring to the full law as delivered in the Pentateuch.  This was a practice that was Temple-centric.  The FOT involved Temple sacrifices which became no longer binding under the New Covenant after the sacrifice of Jesus, but the Torah also prescribed that this was one of three occasions when the Israelite males were to come before God for worship at the location where he placed his name and this requirement would not have been abrogated by the sacrifice of Jesus.   And God placed his name at the Temple in Jerusalem.  So, if you believe the Torah is still binding on Christians, the sacrifices became passé under the New Covenant but the command to appear at the right place did not.  So, a big jot passed from the law in the Torah sans Temple repackaging by Armstrongism. 

The Temple-centric Torah still exists.  It lies fallow in everyone’s Bible.  Nobody can fully observe the Torah because the Temple is gone and has never been rebuilt.  And the Temple in Jerusalem was the place that God placed his name and this continued until 70 AD and that designation was never rescinded.  In fact, God stated the following in 2 Chronicles 7:16 regarding the placement of his name: “For now I have chosen and consecrated this house so that my name may be there forever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.”  In these prophetic words, God apparently did not anticipate placing his name in Big Sandy, Texas or Squaw Valley, California.

I cannot find any place in scripture where the placement of God’s name in Jerusalem is rescinded.  2 Chronicles 7:16, quoted above, refers to the First Temple.  God abandoned that Temple (Ezekiel 10:18) and it was destroyed by the Babylonians.  But God’s name was still placed there even though God’s presence was not there and there was no physical structure.  We know this name placement had continuity because Darius stated the following concerning the proposed Second Temple (Ezra 6:12): “And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem.”   The continuity of the name placement extends into the New Heavens and New Earth because in Rev. 21:22 it states that there will be a New Jerusalem and God the Father and God the Son will be the Temple in that city.  A city that is eternal.  The placement of the name in Jerusalem survived national upheavals, destructions, captivities, loss of physical structure but it will continue into perpetuity.  Given this history and prophesied future, it is staggering that some believe that God would place his name at Wisconsin Dells or Tucson. 

The Temple Returns

In 1 Chronicles 7:16 quoted above, did God disclose that he could not really tell the future?  Did he not foresee the destruction of the first Temple or the Second Temple?  God actually creates reality so it is impossible that he would not see down the corridors of time and into the future.  God’s name continued to be placed in Jerusalem even though the physical structure of the Second Temple was destroyed in the Tribulation.  There has been a replacement for the Temple that was destroyed in 70 AD.  We are told of this in John 2:19-22 that Jesus said: “’Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  The Jews then said, ‘This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.”  How about that? The disciples did not, with a spirit of unbelief, turn to the Book of Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 and tell the resurrected Jesus that he was wrong – that there was going to be another physical Temple building.  Since the Gospel of John and the Epistle to the Ephesians were roughly contemporary, it is like that the early church understood the full import of Jesus as the Temple. To seal the deal, the Levitical Priesthood, based in the Temple, was replaced (Hebrews 7:12).  And further, Christ as the Temple was attested by Jesus himself in John 2:19-22, Christ as the Temple was attested by Paul in Ephesians 2:20-22 and by John of Patmos in Revelation 21:22. In the mouths of two or three witnesses a thing is established.  

In spite of all this evidence, amazingly, there are those who claim the Torah is forever and written on their hearts (Hoeh says that the eternal law of God includes the Ten Commandments and also the “statutes and laws” derived from them in his article titled “Which Old Testament Laws Should We Keep Today?”) and that the Levitical Priesthood and the sacrificial system will be restored (Ezekiel 44:15) in the Millennium all based on the idea of Ezekiel’s Temple. So, it is worth having a look at Ezekiel’s Temple.  The account of it is starts in Ezekiel 40 but finishes in Revelation 21 and 22.  I will turn to that topic next. 

Ezekiel’s Temple and the Apokatastasis

Ezekiel delivered a lengthy prophecy (Ezekiel 40-48) that is a detailed description of an unbuilt Temple.  The passage describes a being giving the description of the Temple to Ezekiel.  The being says the message of the description is for Israel which was then in exile in Babylon.  Otherwise, the being does not provide any information about the purpose of the description. In particular, the being does not assert that it is a plan for a future physical Temple.  Consequently, there are many interpretations of this passage. 

The meaning of the passage about this imaginary Temple is problematical.  I will present what I think is the most plausible theory. Briefly, at the close of Ezekiel’s description of the Temple, he describes a river of healing waters that proceeds from beneath the threshold of a door to the Temple (Ezekiel 47:1-12). This description is repeated by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 22:1-5).  Ezekiel and John are using the same imagery.  The connection is undeniable. John seems to provide a gloss on Ezekiel’s Temple writing.  But John of Patmos, a few sentences earlier in Rev. 21:22, makes an explicit statement about the Temple: “I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.”  What this means is that Ezekiel’s imaginary Temple is a symbol of God the Father and Jesus Christ according to John of Patmos.  In the Apokatastasis, there is the renewal of all things prophesied by Jesus when he walked the earth (Matt. 19:28).  Jesus is the Temple renewed, and this renewed Temple in the person of Jesus is not attended by the Levitical Priesthood but the Elect are the priests of that Age (1 Peter 2:9). 

Where the Data Leads

My penitential confession. The Torah has an unbreachable linkage to the Temple through Holy Day observation. The three major Holy Days required sacrifices and that all the males of Israel appear before God at the place where he put his name. The curtain fell on the Torah in its physical implementation in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed in the Tribulation.  The physical Temple in the interval after the Crucifixion and before 70 AD had already been superseded by Jesus as the new Temple.  The physical destruction of the Temple just underscored this supersession. So, then the Torah as an integrated package of liturgy and praxis could no longer be kept.  All subsequent renditions of the Torah innovated by men are partially truncated without the Temple.  (Somebody needs to convince me that re-inventing the Torah sans Temple is a God-ordained directive rather than a pathology.) Proclaiming that the Temple is no longer required because there are no longer any sacrifices overlooks the fact that there were other Temple activities that are still executable.  Abrogating the sacrifices does not uncouple the Torah from the Temple.  The Torah and the Temple stand together or fall together. Ezekiel’s Temple does not proclaim a revitalization of the Torah, sacrifices and Levitical Priesthood but symbolizes God the Father and the Son who gave us the New Covenant with a new High Priest and a new priesthood and the Law of Christ.

 

Note:  Let me hasten to add that it is my exegeted position that there is nothing wrong with keeping any of the Holy Days. Knock yourself out.  I feel that it is highly probable that the Jerusalem Church in the First Century observed the Holy Days and some Temple worship prior to 70 AD.  Observation of a Holy Days can have pedagogical value if observed from a New Covenant perspective.  What is blatant heresy is to declare that Holy Day observance is required for salvation.  Circumcision is the canonical case against this view.  



77 comments:

Anonymous said...

There is clear New Testament symbolism that ties the Feast of Tabernacles to Jesus Christ's ministry. Note that the Jews were instructed to build temporary booths out of palm fronds. Note that when Jesus entered Jerusalem, the people waved palm fronds.

Nobody waved hotels at Jesus. If you are going to observe Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles), you are dishonoring Jesus if you rent a hotel room instead of building your structure out of palm fronds as Scripture requires and as the Jews still do today.

Anonymous said...


I can't find any instruction to build anything, including Lev 23:40, but to rejoice, unlike the Jews in Neh 8:14-15 who apparently read into the law that to dwell in a booth a booth must be built out of tree stuff. The corrected translation of Hosea 12:9 indicates historically tents were lived in during the feast.

Anonymous said...

A hotel room is a temporary booth

BP8 said...

1030
Are you implying there is no way to observe the holydays from a new covenant perspective, where true worshippers worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:21-24)? Does Christ now really care that this worship be based on sex (all thy males), place (Jerusalem, Wisconsin Dells), or building materials (palm frouds)? The fact that the Jews still do these things should tell you something.

Also, Scout. Our residential expert on Ezekiel's temple (multi-part man) will probably come gunning for you. I can't wait, lol.

Anonymous said...

If it is a temporary booth, why do its owners pay property tax on it as a permanent structure?

Anonymous said...

The "hotels are temporary booths" is a lie we were spoon-fed by elitist ministers who were too good to stay in a tent or make one out of palms. Elitist ordained people were expected to live in 1st class hotels during this time and have all of their meals and expenses paid for. There were ministers who even listed their booze and contraceptives as Feast expenses before WCG imploded, and they left for UCG and LCG.

Anonymous said...

Are you implying there is no way to observe the holydays from a new covenant perspective,

Sure you can. And if you value the Gospel account, your observance of the Feast of Tabernacles will call to mind the palm fronds the people waved at Jesus. There's nothing wrong with staying in a hotel and worshipping Jesus, but if you do that please don't pretend that it has anything to do with the Fall festivals.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Excellent post, Scout!

The absolute unvarnished and clear TRUTH is that since the year 70 CE it has been IMPOSSIBLE to keep the FOT in the manner prescribed by Torah (For both Jews and Christians). As Scout has pointed out, the Judaism of the Hebrew Bible was governed by the Law of the Central Sanctuary (the Temple at Jerusalem). Sounds like some of us need to reread the Gospels and the book of Acts. Jesus, his family, and his disciples ALWAYS kept the festival at Jerusalem - ALWAYS! Don't trust me, look it up in your own Bible (I know I've heard that somewhere before).

A hotel is NOT a temporary structure (some of them are hundreds of years old). They are usually constructed out of durable and finished materials (like wood, stone, masonry, steel, glass, etc.). Now, most folks do only stay temporarily at a hotel (although some folks live in them year-round), but that does NOT fit the symbolism alluded to in Torah. Scripture makes clear that the Israelites inhabited TEMPORARY STRUCTURES. Moreover, Scripture also reveals that all humans currently inhabit temporary homes (our physical bodies), and that those who accept Christ will exchange their current tabernacle for a permanent/eternal one in the future! In other words, a temporary stay is NOT consistent with the symbolism of the Feast of Temporary Shelters/Tabernacles/Booths.

The PLAIN TRUTH is that NONE of the ACOGs follow ALL of the instructions related to the Feast of Tabernacles as outlined in Torah. Like their Jewish brethren, they ignore some of the instructions and substitute new practices which are NOT found in the Hebrew Bible. As Herbie used to say, folks can be sincere, and still be sincerely wrong!

Anonymous said...

Well OK then I'll keep the feast of ingathering. All those Torah regulations given after the Levitical Priesthood was established and related to the Levitical Priesthood have been removed anyway, by necessity since the LP is no more, now.

Anonymous said...

BP8 wrote, "Are you implying there is no way to observe the holydays from a new covenant perspective..."

There are many, many ways that the Holy Days can be observed interpretatively. What you cannot do is 1) claim that keeping the Feast away from the Temple is a valid Torahic observation and 2) you cannot claim that the Feast is a requirement for salvation. The second proposition is a heresy against the Christian faith. The former proposition is just an error in understanding the Torah.

Armstrongism does both of these.

Scout

Anonymous said...

There is a semantic issue here that obscures this topic. I fell victim to this problem in the Note at the bottom of my essay. I said that its is fine to keep the Holy Days. I should have said that it is fine to keep the Holy Days INTERPRETATIVELY. That is, unless you conform to the Torah at the jot-and-tittle level, you are not genuinely keeping the Holy Days in conformance with the Torah but you are making an interpretation for, perhaps, instructive purposes.

The fact is you cannot “keep” the Holy Days at all because they have an ironclad connection to the location where God placed his name. And that is the city of Jerusalem and at the Temple. This required venue no longer exists. And, of course, under the New Covenant the venue is not required for this purpose because Jesus is the new Temple. To wit, you cannot keep the Feast of Tabernacles validly in conformance with the Torah unless you travel to Jerusalem and build yourself a brush arbor. But then, after all of the logistics, you still would not have a Temple with a liturgical infrastructure to accommodate your desire to worship in conformance with the Torah. The brothers in the First Century Jerusalem church very likely kept the Feast of Tabernacles but not as a requirement for salvation but as a liturgical tradition. However, they had the Temple and its infrastructure available to them

I should have sorted this out in my essay.

Scout

Anonymous said...

"What is blatant heresy is to declare that Holy Day observance is required for salvation."

Lucifer and the angels under him went astray. The humans God created and placed on planet Earth did like wise, resulting in God wiping them out with the flood. The result is the holy days whose purpose is to keep angels and humans mindful of the fundamentals and pointed in the right direction. They are not an end to themselves but rather a means to the end of 'choose life.' Which is why no holy day observance equals no salvation. Believing Scout will rob you of your eternal life.

Byker Bob said...

I believe that James and the other members of the Jerusalem Council knew what you just shared, Scout, as they reviewed the case Paul had brought before them on behalf of the Gentiles, and when the edict was issued that circumcision was not required of the Gentile converts. In order to be a full participant in the temple rituals, circumcision had always been required, even of non Jewish/Israelite converts. So the implications went far beyond the physical act of circumcision alone.

Plus, Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and not of the Levitical priesthood, who were the tribe who were specifically tasked with the administration of the laws of Torah. Clearly, something quite different from what we were taught at the hands of HWA was going on in the first century. No way were we ever "first century Christians" as members of the R or WCG!

BB

Anonymous said...

The Apostle Paul observed the Holy days outside of Jerusalem, Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread and Day of Atonement. Acts 20:6 shows he celebrated Feast of Unleavened bread in Philipi before travelling to Jerusalem for Pentecost.
Acts 27:9 shows he kept Day of Atonement outside of Jerusalem. Paul"s actions and words show that he adhered to the biblical holy days, including observing them in locations outside of Jerusalem.

I recall Ronald Dart repeatedly teaching about the benefits and love of observing the Feast of Tabernacles, how it can help people's faith grow and mature. He never once taught that 'observance was required for salvation'.

The end of the sacrificial system on earth did not signify the end of the biblical feasts. The Holy days point to Jesus Christ and teach about him at all levels. They teach us a greater faith in God. They contain timeless lessons that will endure until the New Earth and beyond. They are the foundation of the everlasting gospel. They are eternal memorials of the sacrifice of Jesus, honouring him and elevating him in the minds of believers.
John 4:19-24 When Jesus was talking to the Samaritan lady at the well, he told her worship will be about spirit and truth.

Anonymous said...

12:13
Saying a hotel room is a temporary booth is like saying my apartment's a tent!🙄

Anonymous said...

If you are a renter rather than a homeowner, your rental is as temporary as your hotel room, it's only a difference of degree, not of kind.

BP8 said...

Sorry Scout, I didn't realize that quoting YOU would cause so many problems. Please don't rewrite your essay for my benefit and try to refrain from painting me with the brush of Armstrongism.

I think we all agree that the holydays are part of the law of God, which was not given to achieve salvation. Paul proclaimed that he (under the new covenant) delighted in and served this very law after the inward man, in newness of spirit and truth (Romans 7:6, 22,25). This is clearly illustrated in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, where the church was celebrating the holyday (Gk. heortadzomen), not in the temple in Jerusalem, but in Corinth, in "sincerity and truth".

Regardless of what Armstrongism says, it is perfectly acceptable to celebrate the appointed times of God, which point to Jesus Christ, and typify the occasions when He acted in history. And we can do that without all the physical trappings the Israelites endured under the old covenant.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous 10:45 wrote, "Believing Scout will rob you of your eternal life."

On the contrary. Keeping the Holy Days as a route to salvation puts you in opposition to Pauline theology and aligns you with the Circumcision Party.

Scout

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Friday, June 6, 2025 at 12:08:27 AM PDT,

Acts 20:1-6 read in context makes clear that the days of Unleavened Bread were used as a marker for the chronology of events being described. It does NOT say that Paul observed the festival outside of Jerusalem (although, being an observant Jew, he probably didn't consume leavened bread during that period). Notice too, in this context, verse 7: "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight."

Likewise, the context of Acts 27:1-12 makes clear that the DOA was a marker in the chronology of this account of Paul's voyage across the Mediterranean Sea. Once again, as an observant Jew, Paul probably did fast (even though the passage does not explicitly relate that he did), but that does NOT constitute an observance of the DOA as outlined in Torah.

We do agree that the festivals outlined in Torah pointed to Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf, but HE (Christ) is THE FOUNDATION of the everlasting gospel - NOT the days themselves! Moreover, Christ fulfilled ALL of Torah, the Prophets, and Writings; and he summarized them into Two Great Commandments and instructed his disciples to love each other. These are the commandments which New Covenant Christians should be concerned with observing - the spirit and truth of Scripture/God.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:08 wrote, "The Apostle Paul observed the Holy days outside of Jerusalem"

I do not agree with that staement. You will need to exegete that for me. And I will, thereafter, give you a response. I need to see exactly why you think this is true beyond the sound bite level.

To explain why I think that such exegeses are required at the outset, here is an example. This is a quotation of scripture from Acts:

“They went ahead and were waiting for us in Troas, but we sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we joined them in Troas, where we stayed for seven days.”

The problem with asserting that this indicates that the DULB were kept in Phillipi is that this scripture does not say that. It only uses the DULB as a reference in time. It like someone now saying that they went on vacation a few weeks “after the fourth of July.” It says nothing about whether to speaker went to see fireworks and sang the national anthem. So, this single brief statement by Luke about the DULB is a way of marking time using a cultural timeframe. It does not pull to weight of a Biblical proof for keeping the Holy Days. So, it must be considered in context with the larger picture presented Pauline theology. And in that view, it does not fare well. Holy Day observance will be classified with circumcision as no longer being required. And the Holy Days are nowhere in the conclusions of the Jerusalem Conference. The statement in Acts makes a great sound bite to influence the unwary but, in the last analysis, it has no depth.

Let me add that I think that some holy days may have been kept in local synagogues. But the Big Three, including the FOT, were not.

Scout

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

The fifth chapter of Paul's first epistle to the saints at Corinth is all about a problem within that congregation, NOT about them observing the days of unleavened bread. A man within the congregation was living an openly sexually immoral life, and his brothers and sisters in the faith had accepted the situation. Paul was merely pointing out that such sins are like leavening added to dough - it spreads through the whole. The apostle was reminding them that Christ had removed the leavening which had been so much a part of their former lives. In the present, they were supposed to be living their lives without that leaven - NOT just for seven days, but for every day of the rest of their lives!

Anonymous said...

Byker 11:26 wrote, "...circumcision was not required of the Gentile converts."

This is an excellent point. Armstrongists believe in the jot-and-tittle approach to observing the Torah as they believe, mistakenly, is expressed in Matthew 5:18. They believe they must follow in the footsteps of Christ and this includes Torahic Holy Day observance (How they believe that this translates into staying in a hotel in Wisconsin Dells is an arc of fantasy.)

If the Jewish members of the Jerusalem church observed the Torah and kept the Holy Days in the traditional way during the period after the Crucifixion but before the fall of the Temple in 70 AD, this would mean that the uncircumcised Gentiles converts to Christianity could not accompany them. In the Armstrongist view the Jerusalem church was still keeping the Torah down to the jot-and-tittle level. And the Temple was still standing. Hence, the only way the uncircumcised Gentile converts to Christianity could keep the Holy Days was to get circumcised. Clearly, the early church was against circumcision. Opposition to circumcision is a canonical doctrine of Pauline theology. It is what he preached after his encounter with Jesus.

The Holy Days were not mentioned in the conclusions of the Jerusalem Conference whose sole purpose was to determine what Gentiles had to do. Some assert that the Holy Day observance need not be mentioned because the Gentiles were already observing the Holy Days. That dog won’t hunt. They could not have been keeping the Holy Days already, in compliance with the jot-and-tittle hermeneutic, unless they had converted to Judaism first in order to engage in Temple worship. This sequence of soteriological events is nowhere presented in scripture.

Scout

BP8 said...

Miller 637
Are our orthodox friends resisting the foundation of the everlasting gospel (Christ) by observing Sunday, Easter, and Christmas, days which have also BEEN FULFILLED, or does this reasoning only apply to the days we find in Scripture?

Anonymous said...

The Big Three were given before the L Priesthood was established/Ex 28 in Ex 23, along with the Ten Commandments in Ex 20 when there was no access to Jerusalem and a permanent temple in the wilderness (for 40 years). The annual sabbaths in the 7th months were added later, are now gone? But not the Big Three. "Feasts" in Lev 23:2 is a mistranslation, should be "fixed/set times". God may have added the 7th month annual sabbaths .......to make noise so He will remember Israel.....fast because there was no Holy Spirit within them......and to recover!!! from excesses done during the FOT. The fast in Acts 27:9 appears to be the one in the 10th month during or nearing winter.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

BP8,

Whatever day(s) we decide to observe, we should do so to honor God. Days point to a spiritual reality. We should always remember that they constitute a celebration of that reality. In and of themselves, they have no value of their own - the value is contained in the reality to which they point. That's why Paul wrote to the saints at Colossae: "So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality." Hence, the relevant question is: Why are you celebrating the day(s) which you are celebrating?

Anonymous said...

Mary was from the Levitical tribe so therefore Jesus through his earthly mother was too.

Byker Bob said...

There was a Jewish diaspora prior to 69-70 AD and prior to Bar Kochba. Paul's primary area of evangelism was to the gentiles who were predominant within that diaspora. HWA often stated in his apologetics that the apostles did not need to teach the Gentiles about the Sabbath or Holy Days because they already knew about these things from the Jews living in their communities. First of all, I don't know about all of the Catholic rituals just because there have been Catholic churches in my neighborhood throughout my life. I don't even know how to properly "cross" myself, or geneflect.

Secondly, Christians were being expelled from Temple due to following Jesus. There was an involuntary trend away from Temple. Circumcision would have been performed chiefly so that the Gentile brethren could attend Temple with the Jewish brethren. "The Way" was in a state of emergence from Second Temple Judaism.

BB

Anonymous said...

The scriptures speak for themelves. It is utter rubbish to claim they are only mentioned as a 'marker'.

BP8 said...

Miller 730
I do not dispute the scenario you have proposed about the man taken in sin (1 Cor.5), but what better time to drive home that lesson for the church than during that particular holyday season (chapters 5, 11), complete with the appropriate terminology and symbolism? Then, to cap things off, Paul says "let us keep the feast". (KJV).

According to Bible Hub, the Greek word 'heortazo' in verse 8 means, to observe a festival, celebrate a holyday. Thayers says, to keep a feast day, celebrate a festival. Various translations verify this (see RSV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB).

There is no need to "add or take away" from what Scripture is telling us.
It appears to me that Paul here is giving the church meat in due season.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:08 wrote, ”I recall Ronald Dart repeatedly teaching about the benefits and love of observing the Feast of Tabernacles, how it can help people's faith grow and mature. He never once taught that 'observance was required for salvation.”

I don’t know if Ron Dart was an Armstrongist in his later years or not. If he was an Armstrongist, then whether he preached it or not, he believed that Holy Day observation was a requirement for salvation. HWA wrote:

“God's feasts, or holy days, or Sabbaths, were commanded to be kept year after year, and forever!”

And, speaking specifically of the FOT:

“To receive salvation even the Gentiles will have to keep this festival. Of course, it is commanded forever!”

These two statements are from the booklet “Pagan Holidays - or God's Holy Days - Which?” This was HWA’s definitive writing on the keeping of the Holy Days. It could be that Dart departed from that view. In which case, what he taught did not represent Armstrongism as a whole so why bring him up?

Scout

Anonymous said...

BP8 5:56 wrote, "Paul says "let us keep the feast". "

The entire scripture is:

"Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth"

Paul is not talking about physical bread, dough and leavening. He is talking in analogy about the leaven of malice and wickedness not yeast or baking powder. He is talking about the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth not matzoh.

The guy who so cleanly struck down circumcision is not going to let a parallel and comparable regulation stand. In context, Paul is talking about disfellowshipping an errant brother as Miller Jones points out. Does he then suddenly shift gears and start talking about literally keeping the DULB. This would be a conflation, a confusion of metaphors, if Pauline theology had not put away the archetypical circumcision as a pathway to salvation with extreme prejudice.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Behave. I don't have to plead and beg explaination to you. Go on find fault with everything i write, you always do, it's water off a ducks back to me.
What does it profit anyone to have a stone cold argument over scripture with you? For your goal is to slaughter and destroy the peace of Sabbatarian Christians. You are not happy with your mission until you destroy all congregations, cause disasters at Tabernacles, turn brethren against brethren and ruin everything in your path. But God knows what you do and time is against you, and ultimately through the love of God our Saviour all will be well.
So do your thing.

BP8 said...

Scout 748
Like I previously said, "let us keep the feast" refers to celebrating a FESTIVAL/HOLYDAY (see my references again)! This demonstrates that you can celebrate the festivals in a NC perspective, not with sweepers or crackers, but with the REAL DEAL, Christ, that Bread of Life. HE is that unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

"Circumcision" and accusations of earning one's salvation are your magic bullets for cherry picking "the Law", but both are open to interpretation and motive. The circumcision issue was/ is paramount for it is the major identifier (seal) of both covenants. As NC Christians, must we be circumcised after the manner of Moses or the manner of Christ? Which covenant do we belong to, that is the question? That was the focus in Acts 15.

Romans 2:26-29, Colossians 2:11, and Philippians 3:3 tells us that circumcision (the sign of identification) has NOT been done away but has changed! Being now circumcised after the manner of Christ, we serve the law (including the holydays) after the inward man, in newness of spirit, where the REAL intent of the law is fully satisfied in the mind of God concerning us (Romans 7-8). This is exactly what we see illustrated in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. The Corinthians were NC Christians celebrating the holydays after the manner of Christ, not Moses!

Paul indeed was talking about and dealing with an errant brother, and the climax of his narrative was that this particular holyday summerizied what and why he had to do what he was doing by putting that brother out. The days of unleavened bread may not be the focus of this narrative, but it definitely shows they were mindful of it and its timing played a role.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:33 wrote, "For your goal is to slaughter and destroy the peace of Sabbatarian Christians."

Look at it from my point of view. I believe that Armstrongism in its many denominational expressions is a cult that disseminates heresy. And I see people out there drowning in this ocean of error. Why would I not want to throw them a lifebuoy?

And when I do this, I only get responses from marginal Armstrongists who deal in ad hominem attacks and sound bites. The accountable people at the heart of Armstrongism never show up, never engage in discussion, are never ready to give a defense of the truth they believe.

I believe the accountable Armstrongists read this blog - at least a few of them. But never deign to engage. That is because they know their mission is not about theology and reason but about indoctrination.

Scout

Anonymous said...



BP8 5:40 wrote, "Circumcision" and accusations of earning one's salvation are your magic bullets for cherry picking "the Law…"

I do believe that some parts of the Torah are carried forward into the Law of Christ. That could be viewed as a kind of cherry-picking. But I am not the picker. This done by the New Testament itself. Circumcision puts us on notice that the behavioral standards of the New Covenant will differ from those of the Old Covenant. One cannot take the Torah, indiscriminately, and move it wholly into the New Covenant realm. (This kind of transfer is what Armstrongism asserts in their jot-and-tittle approach to the Torah, though Hoeh/Meredith never defined this very well.) The lesson of circumcision is reinforced by Jesus when he says several times in the Sermon on the mount: “You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times …But I say to you…”.

Scout

Byker Bob said...

@ 10:00 ~ You may want to Google "Was Mother Mary a Levite?" This is conjecture based on her cousin Elizabeth's father's status as a Levite. However, they could have been cousins through their mothers. Tribal identity in Israel came through their fathers. Although Jesus was the Son of God, as the son of man He took His identity through Joseph, who was of the tribe of Judah.

BB

Lee Walker said...

For Law observers, Jerusalem is the only commanded location for feasts. Synagogues (and thus, churches) elsewhere makes sense because people can’t go to Jerusalem every week, but must be viewed in that context. Armstrong convention-style Feast of Tabernacles observances are Jeroboamic efforts to rally people to him/their particular ACOG, and unnecessary burdens.

Oh, and Acts 15 and 21 concerns whether GENTILES are required to be circumcision. It is not an abrogation of the requirement for Jews (and probably northern Israelites, depending on your reading of Jeremiah 3), as that would violate Gen 17; Deut 4.1-2; 13:32-ch13; 30:1-10 (cf Ezek 44:9; Acts 6:12-14).

Byker Bob said...

There really are no silver bullets, BP8, or they would be effective in educating even the most highly deceived from their mindsets.

The best we can do is to raise what each of us knows as our debate points, the things which made us ask questions in the first place. To me, most of these debate points are not only silver bullets, they are frangible silver bullets which open up huge gaping holes as they hit! Most people who had an Armstrong experience have so eternalized the proof texts and eisegesis of HWA that it is collectively the basis by which they evaluate all incoming new information. It's no longer just programming, it's actually a form of possession. These groups own the members who are no longer capable of objectivity, and somehow manage to turn any new facts into support for their Armstrongism.

They should be following an evidentiary trail with their mind in a neutral stance, allowing the facts to lead to a solid conclusion. And then shift into reverse, back away from the garbage, and then into drive or first gear on their journey to the rest of their lives, and their eternity (or not).

BB

Byker Bob said...

This may be off topic, but does anyone here have the Cohen Modal Haplotype?

BB

Byker Bob said...

Context, context, context! According to everything we know from the Bible, other cultures' holy books, and science, ultimately EVERYTHING is temporary except God! So, "temporary" is relative to the person and circumstances involved in any given experience. A motel room, hotel room, bnb, tent, trailer, motor home, or any dwelling not your normal domicile including palm fronds, is temporary for you as compared to your normal living conditions. Doesn't matter how long it will exist or whether there are property taxes involved.

A better question would be, did God intend for the F/T to be a minimalist, ascetic experience undergone by His chosen people while awaiting for the promised land, reward, or salvation, or did He intend for it to be a portrayal of future actual Epicurean Kodak moments in the Millennium or Kingdom, a foretaste of the anticipated riches???

We have detailed scriptural examples of New Covenant Passover (Last Supper), and New Covenant Pentecost (Acts), but neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament provide a detailed account of Jesus and His followers participating in the Feast of Tabernacles. Most of the characters in the Bible lived very austere lives! I believe they would be astonished to behold our so-called First Century Christian replications of the Feast of Tabernacles, and the daily lifestyles of those we called "Apostles". After recovering from the initial shock, they'd most likely say something like, "Oy vey! Look at that Menachem! They HAVE their reward!"

BB

Anonymous said...

I gree. Armstrongism, like most of contemporary Christianity is about indoctrination rather than 'prove all things.' It has to be since their theology is always some blend of truth and error that they feel comfortable with. This is no different than many "Christians" giving themselves secret or overt exemptions from many of God's laws. All churches willingly stomp on critical thinking in order to maintain their particular cocktail of "The Truth."

Anonymous said...

BB @ 12:24:28 PM PDT Hi there BB. My mum has Levi in her family. My own DNA has me as one of the 'Tribe'. Not sure about the Cohen Modal Haplotype, will need some more serious info from the geneticists for this one. A few years back I came into contact with a local Chabad Rabbi by the name of Rav Goldstein. Great guy, and turns out that the Goldstein's are related to us down the line. Jewish friends of mine say I am a Levite. We have a number of Cohens in our Shul and a best friend of mine from Israel is a Cohen. But he is anything but religious lol. Small world it is.

Anonymous said...

Lee Walker 10:52 wrote, “Synagogues (and thus, churches) elsewhere makes sense because people can’t go to Jerusalem every week, but must be viewed in that context.”

The Elephant in the Room. The Old Testament is based on a certain model for Israel as a nation. In that national model, there is no accommodation for the idea that Jews would live outside of Palestine. Land is extraordinarily important in the Abrahamic Covenant. For the Jews to live outside of Palestine is like Adam and Eve living outside of Eden. There is also no accommodation in OT scripture for Israel to be without a Tabernacle or Temple. The national model foresees Jews living in proximity to the Temple for the duration of their nation on earth.

The default position of the OT is that it is about the Jews living in Palestine with a Temple to the end of the Age. The fact that the Jews lost the Temple and went into Diaspora is an anomalous, punitive condition. My view is that this condition made it impossible for the Jews to keep the Torah as it was written. And it makes it impossible for Armstrongists to keep the Torah as it was written. That is how serious it is. If all Jews lived in the land promised to Abraham, they would always be close enough to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate the principal Holy Days.

It is entertaining for those pre-occupied with the re-packaged, diasporic Torah to consider such ideas as how does one keep the Sabbath near the North Pole or on an orbiting space station. The answer is that the Torah is a part of a national model that does not accommodate the idea that Jews would live outside their promised homeland. The Torah is not only linked to the Temple; it is also linked to the land of Israel. It does not accommodate the idea of a bunch of Gentiles in North America keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in Branson, Missouri. The only way that such an event like that can be accommodate is to alter some of the central principles of the Torah, rendering it to be something different from what Moses envisioned.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Byker 12:24

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is a specific configuration of single tandem repeats within Haplogroup J. It is not as definitive as one might think. Arabs also carry the CMH. That is to be expected. The Gazans are the genetically very close to Middle Eastern Jews. They are nearly the same people.

I have Sephardic Jewish ancestry but I don't think I have the CMH. I do have the Western European Atlantic Model Haplotype. I come from a long line of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon trash.

It is interesting that the CMH is a characteristic of Haplogroup J, yet there are British-Israelite fans that think Abraham was Haplogroup R like the British. Go figure.

Scout

Byker Bob said...

Way cool, 5:20! I had a colleague when I was in sales in California who was a member of a Chabad. He was proud of his Shul and I went along with him one day when he was setting up some computers. He knew my background, that I'd grown up keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days, and that I still only eat clean meats. As a result of our friendship, I saw the joy that he and his wife and children derived from these things. It was HWA's managerial style and the fear and extremes which he constantly created and fed which made Armstrongism a toxic religion.

Someone had made a comment about Jewish people of today knowing, at least in some cases, what tribe they were from. It piqued my curiosity. Thanks so much for your response. Shalom!

BB

Anonymous said...

This is all fascinating to me, Scout! And, yes, I would expect Arabic neighbors of Israel to have the CMH. Intermarriage amongst close neighboring nations. There was not always the level of animosity amongst Arabs and Jews that we witness today. There were times throughout history when Arabs gave sanctuary and solace to Jewish people.

I have not delved into my own ancestry beyond my great grandparents. I sometimes joke that I'm a Heinz-57 Cracker!

Anonymous said...

You may perceive yourself as a hero but your not in the cold light of day. You've become as much as part of the problem as others are but you refuse to see it.
I nearly feel sorry for you, producing all these posts, going to great lengths and your true target audience, the elites are not interested or worse being detected but not engaging. Turning their noses up. Oh vey!
And all you've got are the peasants, baldric's from blackadder, who you perceive as not even proper! 'Armstrongites '. Now that's
an insult. Ha!
Marginals, not quite sure what's the difference between a 'proper' and 'marginal' Armstrongite but hey ho!

Why here? Surely the ministerial forum would be the place to engage your target audience. Or have you been booted off of that. Seems even apostacy is not what it once was.




Anonymous said...

Keeping the feasts in non-Jerusalem locations is an example of why "what's bound on earth will be bound in heaven" as stated in Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18.

BP8 said...

Scout 837/802
You raise valid points in these comments. Allow me to chime in.

You say, "I believe some parts of the Torah are carried forward into the law of Christ". The obvious question is, what parts? Jesus spoke of " weightier matters", and Paul referred to "righteous requirements", which tells me there are aspects of the law that are more important than others.

" One cannot take the Torah indiscriminately and move it wholly into the new covenant realm".

I agree. Some have tried and made a legalistic mess of things. Big mistake!
Who really has the wisdom and discernment to pull this off? You and Byker Bob both correctly point out our limitations. The words of Jesus (but I say to you) and detailed scriptural examples found in the NT are few at best.

"The OT is based on a certain model for Israel as a nation".

True. For Israel, land, place (location), sex (all THY males, heads of the family), structures (buildings, materials), were paramount and written into the law. But these things were necessary to guarantee seats at the lunch counter. They had nothing to do with the food served. In our society, compulsory education laws mandate children to attend school, but these laws have nothing to do with the educational instruction available. It only guarantees them a seat in the classroom. If national Israel was to receive anything from God, they had to be in the right place at the right time, and the law mandated this.

As far as " altering some of the central principles of Torah, rendering it to be something different from what Moses envisioned ", consider the example and liberty of the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:7-11 concerning the law of Moses.

" Who goes to war at his own charge, or plants a vineyard and eats not? Say I these things as a man or saith not the law the same also"?

We all know that Deuteronomy 25:4 says no such thing, but Paul is bringing out the weightier matters, the righteousness of the law, that which is the important part and meaning. I'm sure Moses envisioned "oxen" as occupying a central part of this edict, but Paul says no, this is written altogether for "our sakes"! What else in Torah is written for our sakes???

Does God really care about oxen? Under the administration of the spirit, does God really care about place, building materials, crackers, or sweeping out toasters, things legalist are preoccupied with? or are there weightier matters written altogether for our sakes that are worthy of our attention?








Byker Bob said...

2:52 AM was me! Forgot to sign.

BB

Lee Walker said...

Scout:

I actually agree with you to some extent. My point was not to justify, but more to explain the logic.

Those outside the Holy Land would be on a “long journey,” of the type discussed regarding Passover, thus there would be no call for people living there to return to Jerusalem. However, those same faithful Israelites might as well get together where they are on the day, they are commanded to rest. It wouldn’t have the same Torah authority depending on how closely you connect the “commanded assembly” provision, vis-à-vis, the Jerusalem location, but it would simply make sense and be the best thing possible. If someone wants to be a legalist and willfully refuse to assemble in that situation, that’s on them.

Theoretically, the “long journey” provision could be used within the Holy Land to justify synagogues outside of Jerusalem. The thinking would be that “long” can be a relative term. SoCal notwithstanding, driving two hours may not be all that “long” to the annual family reunion, but it would be rather “long” to go to work five days a week. That latter practice may not be feasible. A person can only do what they can do. However, getting together with the faithful in a more local setting might be feasible, and as with faithful Manassite in North America, it would make sense. Yes, it is human rationality. I am simply explaining the reality of the matter. If you were there then and disagreed with that thinking, I doubt anyone would stop you going to Jerusalem every week.

(And of course, for you Christians, it should be noted the Jesus did assemble in synagogues outside of Jerusalem rather than traveling there every week even before he “abolished the Law,” according to some. So you all can’t declare the practice of non-Jerusalem observance somehow violative of Torah without condemning and denouncing your Lord and Savior. [Moses and Galatians 4:4 for the win on that one.])

While the weekly sabbath-rest seems to be shown applicable in any earthly geography (I will let people figure out the best way to handle the polar regions), a specific argument can be made that the annuals would not be required outside the Holy Land at all. That is, an Israelite in North America wouldn’t have to take those days off from work. It builds on the “When you come into the Land,” references. I personally think it’s a bit weak, but I can track the theory. Contrarily, it could be argued that the countries north of the Rio Grande are Israelite colonies, thus still within the “gates” of Israel, even if not in the specific Promised Land. But in Mexico, on the other hand… Lots of theories.

But whatever the case, the Armstrong FOT conventions certainly do not carry authority. Even applying the concept and reasoning behind non-Jerusalem assemblies, there is none of the “where the Lord has placed his name” status, and there is no reason — besides the Jeroboamic one discussed before — to try to burden people with them. And many reasons not to.

(All that said, I’m glad I know the Bible isn’t valid as divine word.)

Byker Bob said...

Yes, BP8. The Bible represents man's progress up to a certain point. It takes us from the point of the first "God-conscious" man, through Israel becoming a nation which was a theocracy, through the era of Hellenism (if we include the Deuterocanonicals), to the coming of Messiah and the expansion of Christianity into a world-class religion which existed and exists throughout the known world at any given time. Much of that time period, the Bible was Israel-centric, or Jerusalem-centric, and included precepts which were the best wisdom for each era. We are left to extrapolate those precepts so that they are relevant and alive relative to the times in which we live today. We do, after all, live life in "real time"!

While the scrolls were read and interpreted by the priests in simpler time, there have been forward leaps, and additional opinions as the Bible became mass produced in the time of Johannes Gutenberg, translated into multiple languages (translation is defacto paraphrase), subjected to the individual thoughts of readers, further popularized via radio and television, and is now dissected on the web and by AI.

We should know by now that nobody has it all figured out, it is a living, growing thing, and that it is a grave mistake to allow anyone or any organization to become our single source for its meanings and implications. In a multitude of counsellors is safety. I do believe in assisting those who help me with additional knowledge and understanding, and have made financial contributions to worthy ones from time to time, but will never again drink any individual's or group's Kool Aid.

To me, the weightiest matters are the Golden Rule, and the Two Great Commandments of the Lord. If practiced properly, these will create good karma, and I'm a work still in progress. So much of our proud legalism in WCG days was selfish, exclusionary, and hurt others. It doesn't need to be that complicated or require all of the obsessive parsing we were taught. It's really kind of simple at core level.

BB

Lee Walker said...

BB at 11:24 AM

“The Bible represents man's progress up to a certain point.”

I hate to sound all PC and such, but the problem with that statement is that it doesn’t encompass all the other religious thoughts in the world. Other civilizations – indeed societies literally next-door to Israel – make their own “progress,” so to speak. That’s the point that concepts like yours there miss. (That said, I do appreciate the perhaps unintentional upholding of Western civilization there, though.)

The answer, which I adopted over 20 years ago (notwithstanding my in-universe discussions here), is that if God wants you to know something, He needs to tell you. Don’t believe messengers or scriptures. In law, it’s called the “Best Evidence Rule.” You don’t use a deposition when the witness is available. God can be everywhere talking to everybody at the same time, and you and I and everyone else standing as judges for our own lives, have every right to demand that before accepting a dogma. Nothing else is valid.

God is real, we have to presume God is benevolent and just (or else this whole religion thing doesn’t matter at all), and so let us strive to be benevolent and just. Then God will judge.

That’s all the religion you really need. There is no doubt more going on behind the scenes, but that is behind the scenes.

Anonymous said...

BP8 wrote, “You say, "I believe some parts of the Torah are carried forward into the law of Christ". The obvious question is, what parts?”

The eternal moral law of God is what God does. The Torah is an application of God’s behavior for the Jews. The Law of Christ is an application of God’s behavior for the New Testament church. Both laws stem from the same source so one would expect to find consonance in principle and some overlap in implementation details between the two bodies of legislation. Overall, different denominations have different views on this. Typically, Christian denominations will believe that the moral content of the law is still present even thought the implementation details may no longer be binding. Armstrongism distinguishes itself from these churches by believing that the Torah is still binding except for the sacrifices, ceremonies and something they refer to as the Ministry of Death. I believe what they call the Ministry of Death stems from a mistaken exegesis. This is a broad topic and it is a challenge to cobble together principles of application.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:07 states, “Keeping the feasts in non-Jerusalem locations is an example of why "what's bound on earth will be bound in heaven" as stated in Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18.”

Think for a moment about the problems your interpretation creates. First, how do we establish who has the right to do this binding? If someone is going to do something this important you would want impeccable and well vetted credentials. I would suggest that no denomination has this authority today. Another question is whether ministers can bind some principle that contravenes the Bible. I should think not. Otherwise, the whole Bible could be discarded and replaced by a concocted body of beliefs. So, with regard to the Temple, the Holy Days and the placing of God’s name, Biblical precedent already exists and should not be modified. What HWA should have done, were there a Temple, is gather up all his followers and move them to Palestine so they could keep the Holy Days in conformance with the Torah, instead of altering the Law of God for convenience.

Scout

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

I stepped away from this commentary thread for a few days. My focus was on the grandbabies (they always put a smile on my face). Good comments on both sides of this issue. I like Byker's latest conclusion: "the weightiest matters are the Golden Rule, and the Two Great Commandments of the Lord. If practiced properly, these will create good karma, and I'm a work still in progress. So much of our proud legalism in WCG days was selfish, exclusionary, and hurt others. It doesn't need to be that complicated or require all of the obsessive parsing we were taught. It's really kind of simple at core level."

As Scout pointed out, Torah outlined the tenets of God's covenant with ISRAEL. It was meant to address the needs of a particular people in a specific time and place. Christ identified TWO Commandments as the universal principles which serve as the foundation of both the Old Covenant iteration of God's Law, AND the New Covenant iteration of Divine Law - the elements which are applicable to all people everywhere for all times! The Golden Rule is an embellishment and clarification of how to implement the commandment to love each other.

In terms of the Feast of Tabernacles, Jesus Christ tabernacled in the flesh for a little while - like us. He is now in his permanent home, and he has made it possible for us to join him there someday. This is the essence of the Gospel message. Through his sacrifice, Jesus made this more permanent tabernacle available to humankind. This is the FOT interpreted through the Christ event.

What did Christ have to say during his observance of the FOT in the Gospel of John. He began by upbraiding the Jews for failing to recognize that his message was from God and for their collective failure to observe and interpret the Law of Moses (John 7:14-24). Christ then summarized what all of this meant for the New Covenant. We read: "37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:37-39, ESV)

Anonymous said...

Scout @ 8:15:46 PM PDT
Welcome to the club sir. I am of Ashkenazi background. I was greatly amused by your comments about also coming from a long line of Celtic and Anglo Saxon trash. Ha ha, that was a gem. Same here lol. Having lived in Israel for a number of years , the sheer diversity of people groups around me was a sight to behold. I was mainly surrounded by Jews of Hungarian and Czech descent, but the town I lived in had also a good mixture of Mizrahi Jews from Iraq Syria and a few refugees from Iran. And I worked beside Russian ‘refuseniks’ who fled the former Soviet Union. I shared my flat with an Israeli soldier born in Romania. I have had Armstrongites tell me the Jewish population are Khazars. I weep tears when I hear this folly.

Anonymous said...

These verses cannot be pulled from their context. I’d recommend reading these passages and seeing if they have anything to do with arbitrary church decisions. They’re about reconciliation.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:28 wrote, "I have had Armstrongites tell me the Jewish population are Khazars. I weep tears when I hear this folly."

This is a conspiracy theory that has been around for a while. I first heard of it at Ambassdor College Big Sandy. The viewpoint there was based on Arthur Koestler's book The Thirteenth Tribe. Koestler was himself an Ashkenazi.

Back in the Seventies in Big Sandy, it seemed like to me that the idea that the Ashkenazi were of mixed ancestry was a new and scandalous discovery. I do know that there was a popular myth in general back in those days that Jews were a pure people because they married only within their race. This, of course, is false.

The Ashkenazi have a lot of Southern European ancestry, from the Italian Peninsula. The Ashkenazi Levites reflect a lot of haplogroup R. This is thought by some to be a Khazar influence. But I think a more likely explanation is that it came from the Italian ancestry of the Ashkenazi. I am waiting for someone to do some research on this. It could be in the genetics.

Scout

Byker Bob said...

Certainly did not intend to slight other cultures, Lee, and you make a good point. Without a doubt, the Chinese, the Egyptians, Native Americans, Africans, Arabs and others have a long and rich span of development that is equally important in terms of world history. I tend to write about those whom we know the best, but all are important to God, and should be to us as well.

BB

Anonymous said...

Hey, 3:05! The ministers read here and get the message! One reason why I choose not to attend a church is that most Christian churches of which I am aware insist that you buy into their entire doctrinal package. The problem with that is that you can actually know better than some of the doctrines, but you are not supposed to speak out about where they are wrong. So, to remain a member in good standing, intellectual honesty is not allowed. Cognitive dissonance follows, and you walk the tight rope or go crazy until you do something about it.

Do you actually believe that 100% of the ACOG ministers believe British Israelism is true? That mankind has only walked the face of the earth for about 6,000 years? That Armstrongite tithing practices are Biblically correct? It's common for employees to shut up and go along in order to continue to collect a paycheck. People start splinters to make corrections, and then end up being as bad as or worse than the splinter they left.

Anonymous said...

In what year should Herbert have done that pre 1948?
You forever keep Herbert Armstrong alive stuck in 1970s/1980s mode.

Anonymous said...

You fail to realise the peasants don't care if the ministry don't believe in this or that doctrinal twig. They care more about character, that the minister is a good person, not a Dr Jekell and Mr Hyde character, sweetness and light amongst other minister's cronies but hell on earth to the members.
They care not for manipulation that produces power addicts but genuine men of God and of service.

Arguing over split hair doctrine is so 1998, very outdated and produces nothing but frustration and mistrust.

Anonymous said...

Today is Pentecost. In Acts 2, Luke writes that on this day the disciples were all gathered together in one place. Luke 24:53 says of the disciples after the Ascension: “And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.” The data indicates that the disciples were in the Temple when the miracle of receiving the Holy Spirit occurred. Some have conjectured that they were somewhere near the Southern Gate because after Peter preached a sermon, three thousand people were baptized. There are pools of water near the Southern Gate. The illustration accompanying my essay depicts the area around the Southern Gate.

Peter stood up and preached the Gospel of Jesus. He did not say anything about the Old Testament harvest festival of Shavuot in his sermon. Then he and his group of ministers, probably a small group, did the lengthy and difficult work of baptizing three thousand people on that annual Sabbath day. Since Pentecost is one of the pilgrimage feasts, there were many foreign Jews present in Jerusalem. The Jerusalem church was at the Temple for Pentecost but they celebrated it in a new way. And the church was inaugurated.

We all familiar with the overt events of that Pentecost. But there was subtle but watershed event that happened on that day. The Temple of God became something new. The Temple became Jesus and through the Body of Christ the church became a part of that new Temple. And in this house Christians are “lively stones” and form the new priesthood that will offer up “spiritual sacrifices (1 Peter 2:5). The Holy Spirit now dwelt in the church rather than a building made with hands. Pentecost at that time was a great transition that redefined both the Torah and the Temple that was linked to it. And in the “epilogue” to the Book of Revelation, we find God the Father and God the Son are still the Temple in the Eschaton and metaphorically the healing waters of the Holy Spirit proceed from both of them.

I started my comment yesterday on Pentecost but am just now posting it. I was overtaken by events.

Scout

Anonymous said...

What message is that ?

BP8 said...

Scout 626 says, "Peter stood up and preached the Gospel of Jesus. HE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT the OT HARVEST FESTIVAL OF SHAVUOT in his sermon".

How do you know? Because it's not written or because that would be inappropriate?

The consensus held by most here is that the holydays point to Jesus Christ. Yet, many act as if it is rank heresy to suggest the church observed them and they still have relevance today:
" They were done away"! "They are shadows"! " They are part of the middle wall, those handwritten ordinance that are against us". "Those who observe days, months, times and years are fallen from grace"!

How and why is the " Orthodox " church observing Pentecost today if these chants are true?

The apostles preached the Gospel (Christ) out of the OT scriptures did they not? Does anyone here believe holyday terminology and symbolism were never used in their sermons, especially when we see it being used in the NT by the same apostles?

Most of this I know is reactionary against Armstrongism and its abuses. But the churches of God don't own the holydays and these days should not be judged and dismissed merely because of past infractions, private interpretations and hardships people had to endure. That approach usually doesn't end well.

Consider our friend Dennis. On another post, he's blaming the Bible because of the abuses of man. He was done dirty in the past so now he's an atheist. That's extreme!!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:48

Sorry. I don't know what you are writing about. I would like to give a response if you could explain a little better what your point is.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Pentecost is also connected to the Day of the Lord prophecy to come but that's forgotten by many these days. Half the time the Holy day sermons preached are a waste of time listening to them. Their either a jumble of holy days mish mashed together or completely ignored altogether. Not many really love the Holy days, it's the trend amongst the self proclaimed 'intellectual class' to despise the Holy days especially Tabernacles.

Anonymous said...

'What HWA should have done, were there a temple, is gather up all his followers and moved them to Palestine so they could keep the Holy Days....'

I'm asking what decade are you suggesting Herbert Armstrong should have done that?

Anonymous said...

BP8 9:41

Good discussion points. I will give you my views.

You wrote, “How do you know? Because it's not written or because that would be inappropriate?”

My view is that the Holy Spirit conserved for our reading what he wanted to of Peter’s sermon. You are right, I cannot know if Peter said much more than this. I should have said that “the Holy Spirit did not feel it was important to save anything but what we read in scripture and what was conserved contained no OT descriptive material on Holy Day praxis.”

You wrote, “Yet, many act as if it is rank heresy to suggest the church observed them and they still have relevance today”

I do not think it is rank heresy to simply observe them. They do have instructive value. It is heresy to assert that the keeping of them is required for salvation. It is a mistake to believe that observing them away from the Temple is anything but an interpretive enactment, a form of pretending. Armstrongists only pretend to keep the FoT because for the real FoT you had to show up in the Temple in Jerusalem and sleep eight days in a brush arbor.

You wrote, “The apostles preached the Gospel (Christ) out of the OT scriptures did they not?”

I believe they did. They also preached the ideas that Paul, James, Peter and other taught in their epistles. It is not that this New Testament ideology was not available – it just wasn’t written down yet. The Holy Days have learning value. Peter may well have preached about them on other occasions. But the fact is, at this critical Pentecost in the history or the formation of the church, the Holy Spirit conserved for us nothing of the Torahic discussion of Pentecost, if it was spoken.

You wrote, “But the churches of God don't own the holydays and these days should not be judged and dismissed merely because of past infractions, private interpretations and hardships people had to endure.”

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The Torahic Holy Days stand as a separate institution apart from the loose replica Holy Days that Armstrongists keep. The fact is, the Armstrongists own these loose replicas. These replicas are creatures of the WCG Church Administration Department. They exist nowhere else. They did not exist in ancient Israel. If you told an ancient Israelite that he was going to keep the FoT in Branson, Missouri way out in Gentile country and sleep in a hotel, I believe his reaction would be extreme perplexity.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:35

My suggestion was rhetorical. The fact is, if HWA had understood the Torahic Holy Days and the requirements for keeping them, he should have planned to have those services in Jerusalem as soon as he understood, whenever that might be. But it would do no good because he would still be missing the requisite Temple. The Torah, Holy Days and Temple were for a certain nation, at a certain time and in a certain location. They were not designed for a group of Gentile Millerite ideologues who want to keep the FoT at Lake Ozark - people who believe they can modify the Holy Days at will.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Scout @ 8:24:33 PM PDT,
I would recommend Dr Henry Abramson, dean of Arts and Sciences @ Touro College in the holy city of New York. An orthodox Jewish historian of note, with a PhD in Ukrainian Jewish history and one who also taught at Hebrew University in Israel. He is on YT, as are most of his lectures. A number have been on Ashkenazi history and their Italian links. He made a comment that they can now trace Ashkenazi Jewish heritage to 3-4 Italian women, through the science of DNA. He out lines Israel’s movement into Central Europe over the centuries in great detail. The Italian heritage throws a curve ball to Jewish Halacha (Jewish law). It stipulates that Jewish heritage is through the mother only and that alone. This may be so according to the rabbinate, but we have science and history telling us something altogether different , so the Rabbis have a problem ha ha.

Anonymous said...

I knew it was rhetorical.
You seem to look at the outside of situations, and they are all half empty glasses to you but others look at the inside and see half filled glasses.
People are only trying to glean what they can in the situations they find themselves.


Byker Bob said...

In addition to general abusiveness, the main problem with Armstrongism (HWA/WCG/AC) was that it claimed or pretended to have all the answers, when the leadership basically offered only approximations. To be a member in good standing with proper attitude, one was required to be intellectually dishonest with oneself. Seems like there's still a bunch of left over Kool Aid, and it remains as the sweet elixir of life to some!

BB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:44 wrote, “I would recommend Dr Henry Abramson, dean of Arts and Sciences”

Thanks for the information. I will have a look.

Population genetics (haplogroups) has some inherent weaknesses. I like autosomal studies better. For instance, an Ashkenazi Jew could be 90 percent Jewish autosomally but could have, through isolated and ancient events of intermarriage, a “Gentile” y chromosome haplogroup and a “Gentile” mtDNA haplogroup. An Ashkenazi male could have E1b as a Y-chromosome haplogroup and some variety of K as an mtDNA haplogroup. The former is prevalent in North Africa and the latter is often found in Europe. Einstein, I believe, was E1b.

I think of my Sephardic ancestry as giving me a connection with the old timers in the Bible, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. While that ancestry gives me interesting historical connections that make my Bible reading a little livelier, it is a double-edged sword. Some of the Sephardim in the region where my ancestry came from fled Jerusalem to escape the Tribulation in 70 AD. I would be surprised if this population did not include some Jews who witnessed Jesus in person and rejected him. We all have good and bad actors in our family heritage.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:44 wrote, “It stipulates that Jewish heritage is through the mother only and that alone. This may be so according to the rabbinate, but we have science and history telling us something altogether different , so the Rabbis have a problem”

Another thing. This is a problem. What was a very imprecise formula for identifying as a Jew is made austerely technical by genetics. The conventional wisdom is that if a child is born to a Jewish mother, the child is a Jew. Having a Jewish father does not have the same gravitas. At one time, prior to modern forensic methods, nobody could be sure about the father.

But you can take this rule of thumb about being born to a Jewish mother and make it precise. You can issue a policy that states that everyone who does not have a recognized Jewish mtDNA haplogroup is not really a Jew. Even though the mother is socially recognized as a Jew. Even though the Jewish mother is predominantly Jewish autosomally. Genetics doesn’t lie. So, I think that the Jewish community should abandon the standard of identifying by birth mother. My opinion.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Scout @ 8:00:02 AM PDT
‘So I think that the Jewish community should abandon the standard of identifying by birth mother’. I agree completely.
An English friend of mine, with a Jewish father made Aliya to Israel, where he met and married a Hungarian Jew. They did an Ulpan (Hebrew course) together
and settled into life in Israel. After a short time period they immigrated back to the UK to find work and start over. Israel is tough, and the fact that he was not a ‘complete Jew’ had an impact on him. There are groups within Judaism that accept those of Jewish heritage through their mother or father, but they are dismissed as ‘Jewish light’ in their practices and beliefs. The Rabbinical authorities unfortunately have the last say. I remember Jesus talking to them with the parable of the vineyard and dressers. The Rabbis have tied great burdens on Israel.